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Thread: My encounter with a racist on Edmonton Transit

  1. #1

    Default My encounter with a racist on Edmonton Transit

    I was the only one standing on the full bus and this punk at the rear started bitching "There's too many black people, Indians, Chinese on the bus. I don't like black people, Indians, Chinese!" Everyone ignored the racist POS. Then he yelled at me "Hey Chinese, move, I can't see!" I ignored and resisted the urge to pummel the *******. Proper thing to do would have been to ask bus driver to kick out the Fu*k.

    My ignoring the creep had quite the effect, as he clammed up for the rest of the trip. Looking back, I'm glad I took no action against the creep. Imo racists should be allowed to publicly spew their venomous hatred towards visible minorities. It brings awareness to racism incidents rather than keeping it hidden.

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    It also gives one opportunity for a dialog.
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

  3. #3

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    ^^Most anthropologists recognize 3 or 4 basic races of man in existence today. These races can be further subdivided into as many as 30 subgroups.

    http://blog.world-mysteries.com/scie...-in-the-world/

    So what was the race of the person hollering at you or are you thinking we will just take it that the person was caucasion.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  4. #4

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    Isn't the OP being discriminatory against punks? Punk movement pre-dates me a bit, but it would have been an interesting time I think.

  5. #5

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    Dealing with all the crazy and awful people is a major reason I hate taking public transit.

  6. #6

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    Miserable people will find anything to mouth off about. One day coming back from work all the seats were full and this guy in his late twenties got on. He wanted to stand at the back of the bus so he pushed hard past the 5 or 6 people standing. Their was on girl who was medium built and he pushed passed her and said 'get out the way you fat pig'. I should imagine he would have had something to say if she had of been a different color to him. I know we should all stand up to racists but sometimes in situations like that it's just best to ignore ignorant people.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

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    trekaw, I'm sorry that you ran into such an *******. You could have called the Transit Watch number and got the ETS peace officers to come out. Here is a link to the transit bylaw https://www.edmonton.ca/transportation/PDF/C8353.pdf If you look at section 10 (harassment) I think this guy would've definitely been at least given a bylaw ticket for that offence.

  8. #8

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    Smartphone cameras, and other security cameras are in the process of changing everything.

    We now just have to make sure that when garbage like this happens, we don't push the pendulum of scorn too far by failing to recognize and show tolerance to those with mental illness and underdeveloped mental capacity. That just makes everyone as bad as the offenders that lack any such excuse for their flawed actions. (The old: "two wrongs don't make a right")

  9. #9

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    ftr the ETS driver is unlikely to confront the individual and their drivers are instructed not to do so due to many prior assaults/injuries that have occurred. They are instead, to stop the bus and await security which they are to contact if a situation is deemed to require it.

    This is important to know, and most don't seem aware, that the occupation of a bus is at ones own potential risk. It isn't necessarily a secure environment and it isn't secured in any way by the driver who effectively is another passenger in terms of intervention. To that end other passengers have more licence to intervene at least verbally (although I don't suggest it) People that do intervene are also quickly surprised at how much they expose themselves to risk while captive on a bus with somebody escalating. Its not a normative situation where you can back away, give space, or do other things to effect de-escalation. It is instead a captive space, something to remember before intervening or involving in any situation on a bus or public transit.


    I do sympathize with what Mr Oilers stated above and I do believe its increasingly why many people stop considering public transit. At some point though policy needs more direction around who is allowed to get on a bus, and stay on a bus. I've seen people crazed out of their minds, with some obviously high or drunk, and in some cases you can tell what the drugs involved are, and what degree of intoxication. Those people seemingly are allowed on the bus even though they should not be.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    I do sympathize with what Mr Oilers stated above and I do believe its increasingly why many people stop considering public transit.
    My wife also stopped taking public transit ever since she was attacked by a violent drunk person at a downtown LRT station in the middle of the weekday. There was no help around, no security, and she had difficulty escaping.

    For some background - my wife is tough and a worldly woman who has relied on public transit in many big cities for most of her adult life (including Toronto, London UK, Paris, and St Petersburg), but has only ever been attacked (verbally and physically) on buses and train platforms when taking public transit in Edmonton for a short time.

    Want more people to take public transit in Edmonton? Try enforcing some rules and keep the crazy people away from the regular people trying to do their regular day-to-day business. My wife and I can't be the only people who avoid ETS because they can't control some of their clientele.

  11. #11

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    Not sure if you remember me posting an incident on a NYE (the last time I've ever taken transit back from NYE DT) but we were sitting in the back of the bus and the youth in the back were on cellphones with other youth and they had no qualms about having conversations about tactics and meeting places (transit terminals) where they would get together in mass to target bystanders and even the suggestion of robbing them. This plotting and networking was occurring ON ETS while the thugs were en route to ETS terminals with ETS operatively allowing this to occur. Nor were these youth being at all covert or quiet about their actions and intents. Basically everybody could hear it. I'm a big guy, mean looking when I want to be, and I gave the thugs a continuous glare. Let them know we had phones, and even phoned 311 in front of them to report this. (I shouldn't have done this so obviously but I wanted to make a point)

    We stuck around, also reported it to the driver, and watched as the youth apparently readjusted their plans. (Their attack was going to be at Millgate (a very deserted terminal) but they thought otherwise apparently. They did state they would just do it somewhere else and walked on other busses. They were prevented entry by only one other driver who had seemingly heard the report already.

    In my discussion with 311 I made sure to mention that operationally speaking ETS was aiding and abetting crime by delivering criminals to sites (Actual ETS terminals) that were the stated locations of crime that was being planned out on their busses.

    If anybody ever wonders why so often EPS is stationed at terminals this has become very common. MWTC is getting bad for this as well. Coliseum station was formerly one of the worst in the city. Stadium station has also had lots of problems.
    Last edited by Replacement; 18-07-2017 at 01:20 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    I do sympathize with what Mr Oilers stated above and I do believe its increasingly why many people stop considering public transit.
    My wife also stopped taking public transit ever since she was attacked by a violent drunk person at a downtown LRT station in the middle of the weekday. There was no help around, no security, and she had difficulty escaping.

    For some background - my wife is tough and a worldly woman who has relied on public transit in many big cities for most of her adult life (including Toronto, London UK, Paris, and St Petersburg), but has only ever been attacked (verbally and physically) on buses and train platforms when taking public transit in Edmonton for a short time.

    Want more people to take public transit in Edmonton? Try enforcing some rules and keep the crazy people away from the regular people trying to do their regular day-to-day business. My wife and I can't be the only people who avoid ETS because they can't control some of their clientele.
    My wife doesn't take transit at night for the same reasons. It doesn't take many bad experiences to give up on transit when there are other options.
    There can only be one.

  13. #13

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    We're a one vehicle family for practical, cost, and environmental reasons. I always pick up the wife in the evening for the same reason. Those opinions too should be forwarded to ETS and 311. I'm being regular reporting things to 311 lately. I have to say their 311 network is much better now and they have allocated more people taking calls or responding. The service has improved significantly and they do seem to take expressed concerns seriously. I can't say what the follow through is.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  14. #14

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    Let's face it Edmonton Public Transit system has the same problems as transit systems all over the world have. Large congregations of people moving around in stations etc then hoarded onto buses and trains. Not that I'm excusing what happens here as it's unexceptable anywhere. The unfortunate part of this is this kind of behavior is now it's spilling over into the airline industry. More people being cited for boorish behavior on planes. Or maybe with the explosion of social media and cell phone cameras we are just hearing about it more.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Let's face it Edmonton Public Transit system has the same problems as transit systems all over the world have.
    Our city should be doing more to fix it.

  16. #16

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    ^^Its a bit different here as COE has had often odd approaches to dealing with homeless, mentally ill, drug users and even giving a hands out welcome to drifters at the EPL which a lot of users were also opposed to. Most cities would provide more for day programing or alternatives rather than availing public facilities to that need. The EPL even went to the extent of hiring and providing Social Workers at the facility. To me a misallocation of funds.

    Similarly ETS tickets are handed out to several social agencies for use, and their operative lack of intervention allows use by everybody no matter how stoned, drunk, impaired or mentally unstable they are.

    Albeit in strict policy drivers are to not advance from stop or station if they have had individuals board that present a risk, operatively they do this on almost every bus trip.

    Really all any reader has to do is take say half a dozen bus trips in the city. Anywhere. You will have experienced people with obvious mental health problems riding the bus, people obviously impaired riding the bus, and people even being rude and borderline aggressive on the bus. This being so commonplace here on ETS and moreso than I've witnessed in other cities in Canada.

    In Vancouver for instance security is higher, patrols seem higher, and pass checking is much higher. Even the Skytrain, which is driverless, instead has regular security officers that board/unboard and in this way check all stations and trains and are minutes away from any.

    Drivers don't do much to effect security.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  17. #17

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    ^How easy is that to do though. It's like people saying we should have a police man on every corner. I think an ETS driver has a better chance of assessing situations on his/her bus than say a LRT driver. The LRT driver has to rely on the passengers to alert him of trouble. An ETS driver can usually see it for him/herself and radio it in.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^How easy is that to do though. It's like people saying we should have a police man on every corner. I think an ETS driver has a better chance of assessing situations on his/her bus than say a LRT driver. The LRT driver has to rely on the passengers to alert him of trouble. An ETS driver can usually see it for him/herself and radio it in.
    They more usually don't even radio it in. The approach seems to be finish the route, hopefully the problem gets off. For the driver radioing something requires them stopping, waiting for security, and I don't know what else and even paperwork and reporting is required. Wouldn't surprise me if drivers are somewhat discouraged from reporting everything. I do know that driver unions have advised against drivers directly acting on matters. The membership is basically told to limit self harm by taking a blind eye. Not something that gets stated publicly, or in a manual, but I've known some ETS drivers that could tell a lot of stories. Albeit stated in confidence.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  19. #19

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    Maybe I've been lucky, I think in a year I've maybe encountered one or 2 obviously drunk/unruly passenger on transit in the evening (on the LRT). Though it would seem that I should probably kick the habit of falling asleep on the bus/LRT.

  20. #20

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    Counter to what I stated (anywhere) I guess it probably does depend on area. Millwoods has some problems on ETS and particularly routes that service the dicey areas around Millbourne. Add to that Millgate being the worst location for a transit station ever devised (most cities would think such a location would be an obvious location for assaults of any nature being how isolated it is.

    Several women I know would basically refuse to transfer at Millgate or wait for another bus there. It seems females perceive potential dangers more than people that design stations like this in the middle of nowhere.

    Also I can't sleep on a bus period since the Greyhound beheading. That incident has permanently cured me of any inclination to ever sleep on a bus. Sorry to bring that awful incident up.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  21. #21
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    Not to worry.

    They cured him.

    He's all good now.

  22. #22

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    I saw a guy on a bus in Edmonton that was a dead ringer for this guy. Looked identical to the pictures I'd seen. To the degree that not only me were taking glances at this guy and keeping him in peripheral vision. heh, I have hyper vigilant peripheral vision. Comes from some of the jobs I've had and also growing up in areas where you learn to look all around you.

    Not sure where this guy resides now, I had heard at one time Edmonton was a possibility.

    One thing that doesn't get mentioned is Edmonton area, and even Alberta is way over represented for Jails, prisons, halfway houses etc that play with our catch and release system of justice. Plus a bail system that for decades basically rubber stamped anybody and even people that were cop killers.

    So we get everything here on our streets and our busses. Always important to remember how severe risk some of the walking population here is.


    hmmm, this link won't help people sleep any better on busses;

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ment-1.4035786
    Last edited by Replacement; 18-07-2017 at 03:49 PM.
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  23. #23
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    ETS is fine. It's not becoming more dangerous to ride a bus. Period. It's the same as it ever was, and it's the same anywhere.

    I haven't driven a motor vehicle for nearly 30 years, and I've taken a lot of buses. I've occasionally had a problem, but not often. I also worked at the Coliseum Station for many years, and had to deal with a lot of jerks. The ETS security did a great job, but they can't be everywhere.

    99% of the time it's perfectly safe. It has a lot to do with the route and time of day. The problem people who get on buses are the same people who are problems on the street.

    The overwhelming majority of transit users are fine people. The more you take a bus the more obvious it becomes. The bad ones really stand out. Lots of nice people, including many who appear to be immigrants on the routes I frequent.

    Anywhere you come into contact with the general public you're going to run into some jerks. The complaints are the same ones people use about downtown, generally. You may be safer if you stay home and never go outside - going from a garage to another garage inside a motor vehicle.

    I think some people who complain about the bus are, frankly, snobs who rarely take it and don't know what they're talking about. I like taking the bus and seeing all of the different kinds of people who live here.
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  24. #24

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    It isn't the same everywhere and a lot of Edmonton bus drivers get assaulted every year. I've read through the literature and kept up with these things as I know some bus drivers and the membership is quite clear that Edmonton and Winnipeg are the absolute worst in Canada for bus driver assaults. (Edmonton also chronically among the worst cities for cab driver assaults)

    In one recent year there were 50 reported assaults and this is just on the bus drivers.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...imes-last-year

    Some reasons that Edmonton would be worse than most places in Canada.

    1) High per capita drug use and typical in a boom and bust economy and with a large migrant population. Essentially we're a larger City version of Ft Mac. People come here, work, get bored, get high.

    2)Over the top per capita jails in the Central Alberta region. Really over represented. Guess where all those people get released?

    3)Edmonton is a Northern port city. Almost every social problem from Northern Alberta through to the NWT gravitates here. Just like London England is the catchment city for the worst lot in England Edmonton plays a lesser, but similar role here.

    4) Due to some of the above, and longstanding rampant serious drug abuse in the area, for instance Crystal Meth, Edmonton has a burgeoning population with severe mental health problems including full blown hallucination. With a considerable amount of these being drug induced.

    5)Edmonton has disproportionate gang membership and criminal networks. Again boom bust economy, lots of young wallets, and lots of funding of crime occurs here. This is one of the more profitable cities in the nation to be doing crime.

    6)Already mentioned young migrants have no social anchors. No relatives, parents, support networks watching over them. Young adults come here to work and many get quickly lost with the lack of guidance they had in their home towns, cities. For some this means run amok.

    7)Latchkey kids. More here per capita than any city in Canada, not even close. Kids and youth essentially rearing themselves either because of absentee parents, working parents, or parents at large. Doesn't always turn out well.
    Last edited by Replacement; 20-07-2017 at 06:37 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  25. #25

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    Ok, looks like two extreme viewpoints coming to the fore and both may be true in their own ways.

    So I imagine there's some randomness and some consistency. Consistency possibly on a time and route basis.

    What are some of the solutions to the problems?




    My brainstorming suggestions as an ignorant non transit user:

    (ETS was always great when I used it decades ago - can't recall one single behavioural issue at all - not one.)

    - Good old random reinforcement maybe?
    Two or three cops assigned to randomly ride transit together (random times, random routes, randomly undercover or in uniform)

    - ETS cameras - record but noted that not monitored until / unless a driver or passenger report comes in.

    - Posters providing app or link to send videos to ETS as issues happen.

    - Flagging user passes after some count of 'strike'. Cameras turned on to monitoring mode when any are passengers.

    - Drivers advised to lower their tolerance for inappropriate behaviour.

    - Pepper spray in a lockbox by the driver.
    Last edited by KC; 21-07-2017 at 11:04 AM.

  26. #26

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    I think some security personnel to deal with problematic people at LRT platforms and pedways (where my wife got assaulted) is a must.

  27. #27

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    KC, heres one immediate difference in ETS travel nowadays that one never had to worry about before. Before sitting down in an ETS seat ALWAYS make sure the seat is dry and hasn't been urinated on. I wish I was kidding. I've been hit by this once, the wife a few times. People, I think so drunk that they are incontinent, getting on the bus, being semi passed out, and so much so that they **** themselves. This being a product of new approach where basically everybody gets on the bus.

    Now imagine being foolish enough to take ETS to a job interview DT and have this happen as you are dressed for the interview. (Yeah, that's what happened) If you've ever sat on a seat that was urine soaked before you know that in an instant it wicks into basically a very large area of your clothing.

    I have no idea why ETS continues to go with those dark fabric seats. Either have hard plastic or a surface that does not absorb.

    Now even if an ETS seat is dry, have that happen a couple times and guess what it smells like.


    As to drivers lowering their tolerance this won't occur for the reasons I referenced. The membership is already very concerned with incidents and assaults that arise from Bus Drivers taking action. The membership is largely advised to selective inaction in any situation where the driver could be the focal point of an assault. Meaning basically any situation that arises.
    Pepper spray? heh, if you pepper sprayed a bus theres a substantial risk of injuring everybody on that bus and potential lawsuits. I think you were being tongue and cheek with that one.
    Last edited by Replacement; 21-07-2017 at 03:20 PM.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    KC, heres one immediate difference in ETS travel nowadays that one never had to worry about before. Before sitting down in an ETS seat ALWAYS make sure the seat is dry and hasn't been urinated on. I wish I was kidding. I've been hit by this once, the wife a few times. People, I think so drunk that they are incontinent, getting on the bus, being semi passed out, and so much so that they **** themselves. This being a product of new approach where basically everybody gets on the bus.

    Now imagine being foolish enough to take ETS to a job interview DT and have this happen as you are dressed for the interview. (Yeah, that's what happened) If you've ever sat on a seat that was urine soaked before you know that in an instant it wicks into basically a very large area of your clothing.

    I have no idea why ETS continues to go with those dark fabric seats. Either have hard plastic or a surface that does not absorb.

    Now even if an ETS seat is dry, have that happen a couple times and guess what it smells like.
    A news story last September reports ETS will replace LRT seats and future bus seats with new rapid-clean plastic seats....

    Funding to replace the worst of the bus seats with heavy-duty fabric and no padding was approved with the federal-provincial funding announcement Thursday. In addition, $2 million will be spent converting all the LRT seats to Fiberglas.


    All new buses will have easy-to-clean seats as well, starting with the next order in 2017.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...our-of-plastic

  30. #30
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    Regarding security incidents on ETS buses....

    Drivers are advised to use their radio to report of any trouble. Ironically, just 3 hours ago I told the ETS driver there is a man sleeping in the back of the bus. He was on the second last bench of the bus facing the rear, his feet was resting on the back corner seat. The bus was crowded at rush hour going from University to Bonnie Doon, basically he was hogging 3 seats. The dude did not move at all, he was passed out.

    At Bonnie Doon I told the driver and she radioed dispatch because she said operators are not allowed to wake up people because they may get agitated.

    Another incident a month ago, there was a man in his 60s shouting swear words periodically on the morning bus trip. My first guess was he is suffering from Tourette Syndrome, but you never know. When the #4 bus stopped in front of the Malt & Mortar a peace officer boarded. The bus carried on it's usual route. But when the old guy cursed again, the peace officer sat beside him and politely asked him questions such as where is he going and why does he say bad things. They were still talking when I go off at the U of A hospital and that's when I noticed a peace officer vehicle was following the bus the whole time.

    So I think that's how ETS buses handles security incidents. The bus will not stop and wait for the peace officers. Rather the bus continues and the peace officers will intercept it later on the route.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Ok, looks like two extreme viewpoints coming to the fore and both may be true in their own ways.

    So I imagine there's some randomness and some consistency. Consistency possibly on a time and route basis.

    What are some of the solutions to the problems?




    My brainstorming suggestions as an ignorant non transit user:

    (ETS was always great when I used it decades ago - can't recall one single behavioural issue at all - not one.)

    - Good old random reinforcement maybe?
    Two or three cops assigned to randomly ride transit together (random times, random routes, randomly undercover or in uniform)

    - ETS cameras - record but noted that not monitored until / unless a driver or passenger report comes in.

    - Posters providing app or link to send videos to ETS as issues happen.

    - Flagging user passes after some count of 'strike'. Cameras turned on to monitoring mode when any are passengers.

    - Drivers advised to lower their tolerance for inappropriate behaviour.

    - Pepper spray in a lockbox by the driver.

    According to his article EPS does patrol ETS http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ests-1.3882375


    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    I think some security personnel to deal with problematic people at LRT platforms and pedways (where my wife got assaulted) is a must.
    This article says that ETS has 65 peace officers. http://www.metronews.ca/news/edmonto...-officers.html

    This page says they work 24/7. https://www.edmonton.ca/ets/transit-peace-officers.aspx

    So, they're around. Maybe we just need more.

  32. #32
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    If this guy was sitting on Toronto Transit shooting his mouth off at blacks and others, I'm sure he will be confronted by others on the bus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by North Guy66 View Post
    Another incident a month ago, there was a man in his 60s shouting swear words periodically on the morning bus trip. My first guess was he is suffering from Tourette Syndrome, but you never know. When the #4 bus stopped in front of the Malt & Mortar a peace officer boarded. The bus carried on it's usual route. But when the old guy cursed again, the peace officer sat beside him and politely asked him questions such as where is he going and why does he say bad things. They were still talking when I go off at the U of A hospital and that's when I noticed a peace officer vehicle was following the bus the whole time.

    So I think that's how ETS buses handles security incidents. The bus will not stop and wait for the peace officers. Rather the bus continues and the peace officers will intercept it later on the route.


    Yeah, probly the same guy Top_Dawg has seen riding buses up and down Jasper.

    White hair.

    Face always contorted in angry sneers.

    Always muttering swears and slurs at everybody and nobody in particular.

    Top_Dawg has spotted him acting normal from time to time though.

    Likely an issue with not taking his medications.

    Transit patrol and bylaw know him well.

  34. #34

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    ^^I'm not sure which you think is better, or why. Responding to intolerance with intolerance is, jmo, worse. Thankfully in the bus full of people in Edmonton people had enough class to rise above it and just see it as some lunatic rantings and decided not to react to it.

    We're better this way.
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