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Thread: Edmonton - Fort McMurray West Transmission Line | U/C

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    Default Edmonton - Fort McMurray West Transmission Line | U/C

    Thought I would post this here because I saw a familiar C2E name in this story:

    http://globalnews.ca/news/3712751/al...-were-ignored/

    Construction has begun on Alberta Powerline’s 500kV Fort McMurray West transmission line, linking the northeast Alberta city to the Capital Region. The $1.5-billion, 500-kilometre long project was given final approval earlier this year and is expected to be completed in 2019.

    As part of the construction process, Alberta Powerline was required to reach agreements with landowners impacted by the line.

    Everyone has signed off, but they’re not all happy about it.

    “What I will be seeing pretty much every morning is 80-metre skeletons sticking up in the air,” said Richard Skermer, whose property near Genesee will have five transmission towers built on it.

    Construction will require the removal of a large number of trees, which Skermer says is prime habitat for moose and other wildlife in the area.
    More info here:
    http://www.albertapowerline.com/
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Ha. I've kept this out of C2E because...well...after hearing comments of how "rural regressives" deserve to be run over by industry...what is the point? Between this and now a huge aggregate haul proposed...my little part of the world is truly powering Edmonton's growth. Only I get screwed...
    Onward and upward

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    http://globalnews.ca/news/3712982/al...rth-the-price/

    Here's part 2...

    I have some issues with part 1. First off, I never authored an additional route as Jim Law suggests. I was an intervener, and as such, could not author one. Our legal council offered up an alternate not as a fully built one, but to show that their route #2 was a complete farce and went against all planning principles as to be a non starter. Secondly, the "consultation" Mr. Kostyk mentions was not consultation. They came out and said tough cookies, we're coming through. Their land agents even said we have no basis for disputing, so take their lowball offer or they would make sure we would get less. Also, they backed out of every promise made. Some consultation.


    ...and YOU get to pay for this. You get it on your power bill. You are paying for the destruction of greenfield land vs repurposing old ROW's. You get to pay for ATCO's GUARANTEED 9% year over year operating profit on top of the 100% of the capital costs. And, the Minister of Energy 100% supports this corporate welfare...including how this goes against the principles of the Carbon Levy...

    Yup...you all get a great deal...but because it is in rural Alberta...who cares... Well, this excessive expenditure is not for urban Alberta either. It is like mass transit for electricity...starting where renewables aren't, and delivering it to where Albertans won't be!
    Onward and upward

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    If the purpose of this new line is to power up the oilsands, I've always wondered why can't they can't partner with BC Hydro and build a line from the new C Dam near Fort St John to Fort Mac? Consider it as compensation for the downstream effects of BC Hydro's dams on the Peace River in Alberta. Besides, I do believe there's already such a hydro line from WAC Bennett to Calgary (via Cranbrook and Crowsnet), so such a notion would not be without precedent.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    The line isn't to bring power TO the oil sands. It's to bring power FROM them. They have massive amounts of co-gen coming online and nowhere to send it.

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    ^...but that is a key lie...the entire time residents and interveners were explicitly told that this was TO POWER the oilsands FROM Genesee 4/5...the yet to be even approved gas fired units. We were derided, chastised, and in the AUC hearing...FORBIDDEN to bring this up. This being the reality that the cogen possibilities from the oilsands...plus the simple generation capacity available from the third largest proven energy reserves in the world...sprinkled with the reality that all of us know power is not one way...means there is no way in hell 2 gas units are needed to power Ft Mac.

    Well...now that I have a letter from Minister McCuaig-Boyd outright saying that is what this line is for...to send power FROM... grrr
    Onward and upward

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    Yeah, I'm not well versed in the background of all this. I was merely correcting the misplaced assumption about the direction of power flow. It's always been fairly obvious to me that power would be heading South, both from news reports and from chatting with a friend who works at Suncor. If the province was claiming otherwise, then that's not kosher. Looks like that's what happened, though: https://thetyee.ca/News/2011/05/26/W...taElectricity/

    Obviously the Tyee has a very, very anti-oil sands slant. But seems like there was indeed some shady things going on with the way the PC's sold this to the public.

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    Transmission was always the shadiest part of the PC's deregulation of the power industry, a huge gift to the power companies & generation owners borne on the backs of the ratepayers.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    noodle,

    The NDP, your vaunted saviour of justice here...is doubling down on this line. Supporting it 100%.

    The PC's..authors of the initial legislation, repealed it just prior to leaving office. So, if the NDP was truly the harbinger of good here...this line would have died. ...and yes, you ARE paying for Nancy Southern's profit margin through your bill....100% sanctioned in writing by the NDP.
    Onward and upward

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    noodle,

    The NDP, your vaunted saviour of justice here...is doubling down on this line. Supporting it 100%.
    When did I say anything like that? The NDP are making positive changes to the electricity market. Obviously they're not ******* magicians & aren't going to be able to please 100% of the people 100% of the time or fix everything at once. There are some substantial deficiencies in the way Alberta's electricity market was deregulated & I feel the NDP are making good progress on many of them. Not all, but many & I can certainly understand their reluctance to meddle in the affairs of an independent, quasi-judicial agency given how the right wing in Alberta loves to pounce on the NDP any time they sense a possible expansion or interference by them darn big-government leftist socialist freeloaders.

    Seriously, I can understand your concerns & I've heard personally from many, many people like yourself when I had to work on the HTL, but the hyperbolic & accusatory way you're presenting your side of everything only harms your credibility (and the credibility of this site as a whole, what little it has).
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    "Fascinating" - Spock

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    noodle,

    The NDP, your vaunted saviour of justice here...is doubling down on this line. Supporting it 100%.
    When did I say anything like that? The NDP are making positive changes to the electricity market. Obviously they're not ******* magicians & aren't going to be able to please 100% of the people 100% of the time or fix everything at once. There are some substantial deficiencies in the way Alberta's electricity market was deregulated & I feel the NDP are making good progress on many of them. Not all, but many & I can certainly understand their reluctance to meddle in the affairs of an independent, quasi-judicial agency given how the right wing in Alberta loves to pounce on the NDP any time they sense a possible expansion or interference by them darn big-government leftist socialist freeloaders.

    Seriously, I can understand your concerns & I've heard personally from many, many people like yourself when I had to work on the HTL, but the hyperbolic & accusatory way you're presenting your side of everything only harms your credibility (and the credibility of this site as a whole, what little it has).
    Ok...name these substantial changes....name them...

    Don't get mad at me noodle! Don't question my credibility on this. I'm the one that is in the middle and actively soliciting the minister of Energy, who flat out won't do anything to fix the grid. There is ZERO legislation tabled or in the works to that effect. They could have completely stopped this project...AND DIDN'T. I wasn't expecting magic when I solicited the Minister, I was expecting her to align to their previous statements about how evil this arrangement was, and is. Instead, I got an about face.

    As for your comments on Generation, Generators are being killed right now, and were under the PPA's. T&D got the $$$.

    So, where are the positive changes? Where is the co-ordinated plan of generation via renewables, and their locations? Here's a hint. As my land is being destroyed by this line, I offered up the remaining acres for solar. I was laughed at. ...laughed at...a site with a pure southern angle...right next to a major transmission line...and close to a major substation. I was told solar was not worth it.

    I'm waiting for the positive changes...

    Be careful of calling me hyperbolic and accusatory. Everything I say is backed up by mountains of evidence including a written response outlying the Government's outright support for the line and the lie from the Minister of Energy herself (or at least her office with her signature). The rest is in the reams of testimony at the AUC hearings. Also, the accusations at APL are documented. Hyperbolic be damned...it is all in writing. Sorry if that bursts an ideological bubble...

    The industry is in a shambles, it is confused, rudderless, and you are going to pay for it for years. I already pay 80% of my electricity bill in "distribution and transmission fees"...

    EDIT...

    I have to laugh at the "reluctance to meddle" comment. Meddling is their objective. They are now the Government. The Carbon Levy itself is meddling!!! It meddled in the market to change behaviour...so saying that they can't or shouldn't meddle is laughable!

    They write the very legislation that the AUC has to follow, and handcuffed them into this position. Meddling is exactly what people wanted both the PC's and the NDP's to do on WATL, EATL, and this line!!! Sorry noodle, but you accuse me of hyperbole...that comment is a sad excuse for their inaction or change of position. Remember, the PC's actually REPEALED C-50. The NDP could have delayed this project until they had the industry under control, put it through a proper needs assessment, and been clear from the start that it was not about power TO Ft Mac, but power FROM Fort Mac.

    They know full well this is a boondoggle. They fought it in opposition. They could have stayed this project. They could have restructured it for what it is...a PRIVATE FOR PROFIT VENTURE that is solely for the EXPORT of power to the US and other jurisdictions and NOT for Alberta's growth. This line is a commercial venture, not a social good.

    ...and YOU get to pay for it with surcharges on your bill, while ATCO and ALTALINK double down in $$$...

    Where the social good part falls apart...under a social good, Albertans should know the true costs of the line. Several lawyers tried many ways to get this information, but only could get it under an NDA....and all they could say is that the profit is very very healthy. This is on the capital build alone, not the GUARANTEED 9 % y/y operating profit for 35 years. The Minister of Energy 100% IN WRITING SUPPORTS THIS ARRANGEMENT. So, you help ATCO profit handsomely on the construction, handsomely on the operating profit, and create an export line where they profit again on transmission out of the province...from sources that are hydrocarbon based.

    ...and you say I am hyperbolic?
    Onward and upward

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Ok...name these substantial changes....name them...
    The REP & the capacity market transition. A REP RFP opened today, as it happens.



    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Don't get mad at me noodle! Don't question my credibility on this. I'm the one that is in the middle and actively soliciting the minister of Energy, who flat out won't do anything to fix the grid. There is ZERO legislation tabled or in the works to that effect. They could have completely stopped this project...AND DIDN'T. I wasn't expecting magic when I solicited the Minister, I was expecting her to align to their previous statements about how evil this arrangement was, and is. Instead, I got an about face.
    I'm not mad at you, just disappointed you'd call me out & try and cheapshot me because the party in power & I agree on some of their platform & because I work in the industry. Lame.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    As for your comments on Generation, Generators are being killed right now, and were under the PPA's. T&D got the $$$.

    So, where are the positive changes? Where is the co-ordinated plan of generation via renewables, and the ir locations? Here's a hint. As my land is being destroyed by this line, I offered up the remaining acres for solar. I was laughed at. ...laughed at...a site with a pure southern angle...right next to a major transmission line...and close to a major substation. I was told solar was not worth it.

    I'm waiting for the positive changes...
    So you made a half-assed, unfounded proposal outside of the official RFP program & was told to pound sand? And I'm supposed to feel bad for you? Yeah, no. By all means, participate in the RFP process like everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Be careful of calling me hyperbolic and accusatory.
    Because a power line is going across a portion of your land you state "my land is being destroyed". That's straight up hyperbole. But whatever, you're clearly all wrapped up in this so much you're not even thinking straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Everything I say is backed up by mountains of evidence including a written response outlying the Government's outright support for the line and the lie from the Minister of Energy herself (or at least her office with her signature). The rest is in the reams of testimony at the AUC hearings. Also, the accusations at APL are documented. Hyperbolic be damned...it is all in writing. Sorry if that bursts an ideological bubble...
    Uh no, the rantings of one affected landowner isn't really enough for me to change my mind on anything, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    The industry is in a shambles, it is confused, rudderless, and you are going to pay for it for years.
    Oh look, more hyperbole. It certainly isn't like this in my neck of the industry, whatsoever. We all pay for transmission, that's true. That's part of the flaws in the way the PCs deregulated the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I already pay 80% of my electricity bill in "distribution and transmission fees"...
    Turns out that living out in the country & requiring a lot of infrastructure dedicated to supporting your country life has a cost associated with it. Whodathunkit. By all means, let me know what portions of FortisAlberta's fee structure & costs you feel are exorbitant, or what lowered level of service you'd be willing to accept to save some money. D&T is heavily regulated & while the Transmission charges are borne by all Albertans across the province, the Distribution charges are solely those of the Wires Owner.


    EDIT...

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I have to laugh at the "reluctance to meddle" comment. Meddling is their objective. They are now the Government. The Carbon Levy itself is meddling!!! It meddled in the market to change behaviour...so saying that they can't or shouldn't meddle is laughable!

    They write the very legislation that the AUC has to follow, and handcuffed them into this position. Meddling is exactly what people wanted both the PC's and the NDP's to do on WATL, EATL, and this line!!! Sorry noodle, but you accuse me of hyperbole...that comment is as bad excuse. Remember, the PC's actually REPEALED C-50. The NDP could have delayed this project until they had the industry under control.
    Did I say I agreed with their decision not to meddle? No. Did I say I understood it? Yeah. More of that hyberbolic screaming harming your case here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    They know full well this is a boondoggle. They fought it in opposition. They could have stayed this project. They could have restructured it for what it is...a PRIVATE FOR PROFIT VENTURE that is solely for the EXPORT of power to the US and other jurisdictions and NOT for Albertas' growth. This line is a commercial venture, not a social good.

    ...and YOU get to pay for it with surcharges on your bill, while ATCO and ALTALINK double down in $$$...
    The NDP are choosing their fights & this isn't one their willing to fight. I get that it's a massive issue to you personally, but in the big picture of Alberta right now it's nigh-inconsequential. We, as a province, have bigger issues than the fallout from this.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Where the social good part falls apart...under a social good, Albertans should know the true costs of the line. Several lawyers tried many ways to get this information, but only could get it under an NDA....and all they could say is that the profit is very very healthy. This is on the capital build alone, not the GUARANTEED 9 % y/y operating profit for 35 years. The Minister of Energy 100% IN WRITING SUPPORTS THIS ARANGEMENT. So, you help ATCO profit handsomely on the construction, handsomely on the operating profit, and create an export line where they profit again on transmission out of the province...from sources that are hydrocarbon based.
    You keep making it seem like I have some direct hand in this, despite being a mid-level functionary in the utility industry, because I voted NDP & support the changes they've made thus far to the industry that I work in. OOOOOOKKKAAAAAAAAYYYY.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    ...and you say I am hyperbolic?
    Yeah, more so than ever.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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