Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: Six-car Trains

  1. #1
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    175

    Default Six-car Trains

    Can the Century Park leg of the LRT scale up for more capacity?

    • Will any platform accomodate a train consisting of six cars?
      .
    • Can the existing LRT bridge accomodate two trains of six cars passing in opposite directions?
      .
    • Is a scenario feasible where six-car trains stop at platforms shorter than the train?

    I watch packed trains go past a path I walk along and wonder what the future holds as the City moves forward with its insideous plans for permanent major disruptions to traffic flow along the southside corridor of 109th street.

    Plans are in the works for 104th, 103rd and 99th streets, too.

    While adding more trains of three-five cars are an obvious first response to be seized upon by the bureaucrats who make such decisions, the cost of this bandaid lies in FURTHER crippling east-west bound commuter traffic stuck waiting for the crossing arms to lift at every one of the level crossing said bureaucrats saw fit to approve along the Century Park line.

    Extending an existing five-car train would add 20% passenger capacity while having little additional impact on east-west traffic delays.

    Once inside a train, passengers are free to move from car to car. On the face of it, it isn't necessary for every car to open onto a platform. Is it unreasonable for passengers to exercise some foresight with respect to positioning themselves at an appropriate door prior to arrival at their platform of choice in exchange for more opportunities to have a seat along their journey?

    Edit: modicom of moderation
    Last edited by mseaver; 22-09-2017 at 12:12 PM.

  2. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mseaver View Post
    Can the Century Park leg of the LRT scale up for more capacity?
    Once inside a train, passengers are free to move from car to car. On the face of it, it isn't necessary for every car to open onto a platform. Is it unreasonable for passengers to exercise some foresight with respect to positioning themselves at an appropriate door prior to arrival at their platform of choice in exchange for more opportunities to have a seat along their journey?
    Our LRT does not support movement between cars; each is seperate unit, with no gateway between them. You can move between cars a station, if you're quick enough, but that wouldn't work if your car is not adjacent to a platform.

  3. #3

    Default

    Not a bad idea assuming the track can handle 6 car lengths, but a few issues with the train/platform interaction:

    1. Saftey risk unless cars are modified to lock doors that are not adjacent to a platform. You can potentially custom build/modify some "end cars" that have one door disabled, but you lose flexibility in putting the cars together.
    2. Passenger at wrong exit door might not be able to relocate in time to beat the rush of passengers entering the train.
    3. Adds a very significant learning curve to using the train, could be a huge issue for tourists and occasional users.
    4. Proper signage and awareness campaign could help, but won't be 100% effective.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mseaver View Post
    Can the Century Park leg of the LRT scale up for more capacity?

    • Will any platform accomodate a train consisting of six cars?
      .
    • Can the existing LRT bridge accomodate two trains of six cars passing in opposite directions?
      .
    • Is a scenario feasible where six-car trains stop at platforms shorter than the train?

    I watch packed trains go past a path I walk along and wonder what the future holds as the City moves forward with its insideous plans for permanent major disruptions to traffic flow along the southside corridor of 109th street.

    Plans are in the works for 104th, 103rd and 99th streets, too.

    While adding more trains of three-five cars are an obvious first response to be seized upon by the bureaucrats who make such decisions, the cost of this bandaid lies in FURTHER crippling east-west bound commuter traffic stuck waiting for the crossing arms to lift at every one of the level crossing said bureaucrats saw fit to approve along the Century Park line.

    Extending an existing five-car train would add 20% passenger capacity while having little additional impact on east-west traffic delays.

    Once inside a train, passengers are free to move from car to car. On the face of it, it isn't necessary for every car to open onto a platform. Is it unreasonable for passengers to exercise some foresight with respect to positioning themselves at an appropriate door prior to arrival at their platform of choice in exchange for more opportunities to have a seat along their journey?

    Edit: modicom of moderation
    Have you ever been on our LRT cars??! What are you talking about, "passengers are free to move from car to car"?

    All the underground platforms max out at 5 car train lengths; you're not going to start excavating to expand them.

  5. #5

    Default

    It would be easier to increase frequency back to 5 minutes than to add an extra car, which would mean adding length to each station along the route.

    increasing frequency by a minute will make a tons of difference. Too bad the NAIT LRT line fluck up screwed up the frequency on the existing line.

  6. #6
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,560

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras
    Have you ever been on our LRT cars??! What are you talking about, "passengers are free to move from car to car"?


    I'm going to assume that the closest he's been to riding Edmonton's LRT is seeing a TV show or movie of the subway in New York.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 22-09-2017 at 04:08 PM. Reason: Quoted the wrong person

  7. #7
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Meadows
    Posts
    1,976

    Default

    Let's wait and see what happens once the SE Valley Line is open. Some of the traffic will be diverted.
    $2.00 $2.25 $2.50 $2.75 $2.85 $3.00 $3.20 $3.25

  8. #8
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mseaver
    Have you ever been on our LRT cars??! What are you talking about, "passengers are free to move from car to car"?


    I'm going to assume that the closest he's been to riding Edmonton's LRT is seeing a TV show or movie of the subway in New York.
    Increasing the frequency, which means buying more and putting more 5-car train sets into operation, works.

    But I have already heard the Mayor start talking about limited-stop commuter rail:
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...hwest-edmonton

  9. #9
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,560

    Default

    I realize. The OP on the other hand doesn't seem to realize that our LRT cars are self-contained. I goofed and quoted the wrong person in my original post, though.

    I think we are a long, long ways away from commuter rail as mentioned in that article, though. Let's finish all the legs of our current LRT before worrying about that. Not to mention finishing Terwillegar Drive as a true freeway and re-configuring the Terwillegar/Whitemud interchange.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 22-09-2017 at 04:12 PM.

  10. #10
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    175

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mseaver View Post
    Can the Century Park leg of the LRT scale up for more capacity?
    Once inside a train, passengers are free to move from car to car. On the face of it, it isn't necessary for every car to open onto a platform. Is it unreasonable for passengers to exercise some foresight with respect to positioning themselves at an appropriate door prior to arrival at their platform of choice in exchange for more opportunities to have a seat along their journey?
    Our LRT does not support movement between cars; each is seperate unit, with no gateway between them. You can move between cars a station, if you're quick enough, but that wouldn't work if your car is not adjacent to a platform.
    Thank you for the correction.

    It has been maybe seven years since I last commuted on the train. Also, long before the extension to Century Park went into service, I swung from straps weekdays to/from University Stn before descending into the depths to ride to Corona, Bay and Central.

    In my mind's eye, I could picture the disc in the floor and the bellow sections separating cars - forgetting that this is just the pivot point between the fr/rr halves of one car, not the joint between separate cars.

    Nothing like failing to do the research and giving C2E vultures something to sink their beaks into, eh?

  11. #11
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    175

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    Let's wait and see what happens once the SE Valley Line is open. Some of the traffic will be diverted.
    Are you implying that people travel west from Millwoods to Century Park and ride the LRT north from there? (Century Park because I'm not sure there is suitable parking further north at Southgate. Quite a horde of cars congregate in neighborhoods surrounding South Campus, but MW to SC by car seems a painful journey.)

    Had not considered that. If so, I suppose that SEVL will divert those people (or at least their progeny.)

  12. #12
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Meadows
    Posts
    1,976

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mseaver View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    Let's wait and see what happens once the SE Valley Line is open. Some of the traffic will be diverted.
    Are you implying that people travel west from Millwoods to Century Park and ride the LRT north from there? (Century Park because I'm not sure there is suitable parking further north at Southgate. Quite a horde of cars congregate in neighborhoods surrounding South Campus, but MW to SC by car seems a painful journey.)

    Had not considered that. If so, I suppose that SEVL will divert those people (or at least their progeny.)
    Yes.

    At least from the western portion of MW. Relatively quick bus connections make it easy. I presume at least some of them will divert eastward once the SE Valley Line is open.
    $2.00 $2.25 $2.50 $2.75 $2.85 $3.00 $3.20 $3.25

  13. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    Let's wait and see what happens once the SE Valley Line is open. Some of the traffic will be diverted.
    Very few riders go to CP from MWTC to take the LRT. It makes no sense doing so as the ETA of that ride depending on route is anywhere from 25-45minutes and with two of the routes snaking through such places as Ellerslie and South Common prior to taking riders to the promised CP named destination of the routes.

    Its deplorable connections, so inefficient, and would be the slowest way to get somewhere possible. Connections to Southgate via #6 are no better and especially during rush hour.

    The CP traffic by and large is not coming from Millwoods, Meadows.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    Let's wait and see what happens once the SE Valley Line is open. Some of the traffic will be diverted.
    Very few riders go to CP from MWTC to take the LRT. It makes no sense doing so as the ETA of that ride depending on route is anywhere from 25-45minutes and with two of the routes snaking through such places as Ellerslie and South Common prior to taking riders to the promised CP named destination of the routes.

    Its deplorable connections, so inefficient, and would be the slowest way to get somewhere possible. Connections to Southgate via #6 are no better and especially during rush hour.

    The CP traffic by and large is not coming from Millwoods, Meadows.
    Ummmmmm, what? Very MANY riders go to CP from MWTC to take the LRT. The 23 goes straight down 23 ave to Century Park, and takes about 15-20 minutes. Most Uni students living in Mill woods, and the meadows take this route.
    "Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible." - Dalai Lama

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gneagu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    Let's wait and see what happens once the SE Valley Line is open. Some of the traffic will be diverted.
    Very few riders go to CP from MWTC to take the LRT. It makes no sense doing so as the ETA of that ride depending on route is anywhere from 25-45minutes and with two of the routes snaking through such places as Ellerslie and South Common prior to taking riders to the promised CP named destination of the routes.

    Its deplorable connections, so inefficient, and would be the slowest way to get somewhere possible. Connections to Southgate via #6 are no better and especially during rush hour.

    The CP traffic by and large is not coming from Millwoods, Meadows.
    Ummmmmm, what? Very MANY riders go to CP from MWTC to take the LRT. The 23 goes straight down 23 ave to Century Park, and takes about 15-20 minutes. Most Uni students living in Mill woods, and the meadows take this route.
    ONLY people going to U of A would take that route to CP. There would be no other reason to take it. If going DT for instance simply take the 15 which gets there in around 40 minutes, no need of a walk from transit at CP to LRT at CP.

    Also, indicating how little this is used the bus only runs every half hour, and is not clearly marked as the route states WEM, not CP. The two other busses that run to CP from MWTC are also milk runs that go to Ellerslie and/or South Common. Those busses are run every 15mins and offer extremely poor time efficiency to CP. If you can catch the 23, which is rare (weird scheduling also results in it not being timed well with feeder routes and I rarely if ever see it at the MWTC) So that what you don't mention is you end waiting longer to take the 23, which then takes 20mins (rarely the 15 quoted on the schedule) then the walk to LRT platform, then the wait for the LRT. Then the walk up the cavernous U of A LRT station. Its by no means a great route.

    Just checked on google maps and the quickest runtime quoted to U of A from MWTC is to take the 70, then the 4.

    Taking the LRT can seem quicker but when factoring in all the walking and time that takes and that the LRT station at U of A is very inconveniently located way underground its not so great.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  16. #16
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
    Posts
    173

    Default

    after checking platforms, i'm sure every station can be expanded to accommodate 6 or 7 car trains. Edmonton would make sure to cost the taxpayers a few billion to do it though. with the express busses above ground, and the new SE/W train crossing, i dont think it would be viable to expand current stations unless we doubled our population on the trains.

  17. #17

    Default

    yes, it would literally be cost prohibitive to expand the underground stations. They were built for 5 cars max - and no room for expansion.

  18. #18
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    4,519

    Default

    A cheaper way of increasing capacity is to buy continuous walk through trains this increases capacity by 10-15%.
    On The London Underground there are a number of stations that are too short so they simply do not open the doors that go beyond the platform.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  19. #19

    Default

    An even cheaper way is to increase frequency.

  20. #20
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    4,519

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    An even cheaper way is to increase frequency.
    Really? That would involve upgrading the signals and that is a black hole.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  21. #21

    Default

    Yes a blackhole because we screwed up the metro line but that might be the fix we need in the end - properly upgrading the entire system.

    replacing the signalling system will be cheaper by a large degree that expanding underground stations

  22. #22

    Default

    Since Thales said they could make it work, I say stick them with the bill for the whole thing.

  23. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mseaver View Post
    Can the Century Park leg of the LRT scale up for more capacity?

    • Will any platform accomodate a train consisting of six cars?
      .
    • Can the existing LRT bridge accomodate two trains of six cars passing in opposite directions?
      .
    • Is a scenario feasible where six-car trains stop at platforms shorter than the train?

    I watch packed trains go past a path I walk along and wonder what the future holds as the City moves forward with its insideous plans for permanent major disruptions to traffic flow along the southside corridor of 109th street.

    Plans are in the works for 104th, 103rd and 99th streets, too.

    While adding more trains of three-five cars are an obvious first response to be seized upon by the bureaucrats who make such decisions, the cost of this bandaid lies in FURTHER crippling east-west bound commuter traffic stuck waiting for the crossing arms to lift at every one of the level crossing said bureaucrats saw fit to approve along the Century Park line.

    Extending an existing five-car train would add 20% passenger capacity while having little additional impact on east-west traffic delays.

    Once inside a train, passengers are free to move from car to car. On the face of it, it isn't necessary for every car to open onto a platform. Is it unreasonable for passengers to exercise some foresight with respect to positioning themselves at an appropriate door prior to arrival at their platform of choice in exchange for more opportunities to have a seat along their journey?

    Edit: modicom of moderation
    The U2 train control systems can only handle 5-cars at a time. I believe the SD160 trains are the same. So 5-trains would be the limit for train length. You'd also have to consider power supply. The downtown tunnel power supply was upgraded years ago to handle 5-car trains every 5 minutes. Finally weight on bridges.
    ETS Trolley Buses - 1939 to 2010 - R.I.P.

  24. #24
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,374

    Default

    Then there are the underground stations designed for 5 car trains, very expensive to make the platforms longer, I suppose you could park a train 1/2 car and have the very front and back doors remain closed.

  25. #25
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    4,519

    Default

    It happens more often than you imagine in England.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  26. #26
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,374

    Default

    Yup but they also have gap/step problems because of curved or canted track at various stations. I liked the newer stations on the Jubilee line though.
    FYI The temporary NAIT station can only fit 3 cars so that really limits capacity right now.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •