View Poll Results: Should dual citizens be allowed to run for Government Office?

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    8 61.54%
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    4 30.77%
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Thread: Should dual citizens be allowed to run for Government office?

  1. #1

    Default Should dual citizens be allowed to run for Government office?

    This issue has just blown up in Australia. It turns out that some MP's have dual New Zealand citizenship, and accordingly, they have to give up their seats, including the Deputy PM.
    We also see this issue come up in the US, where the rule focuses also on where you are born.

    Canada allows dual citizens - often historically it has been citizens of France and Canada.

    I am a dual citizen. I have New Zealand and Canadian citizenship. But if I ran for government office, or the military, I would have no problem giving it up. In fact, I couldn't care less about giving up the New Zealand citizenship, it has been almost twenty years since I left the country. I don't vote in NZ (I can't as there is a rule requiring you to have visited within four years), and I have no business doing so anyway.

    My concern is conflict of interest - how do you know someone is really committed to Canada's interest, versus the country they are also a citizen of? I would think when you take government office, or a military role, that's important.

    What do people on here think? Has Australia got it right or has Canada?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11937590

    Australia's High Court this afternoon ruled that Joyce and four other Australian Members of Parliament were ineligible to run for their seats, threatening the Australian Government's one-seat majority in the House of Representatives. Joyce will now fight a by-election for his seat.

  2. #2
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    Australia has this one right.

    Having said that, citizenship is more than being able to run for office and the inherent conflict or potential for conflict for me goes deeper than that. Dual citizenship should not be allowed by Canada either for immigrants or for emigrants. Citizenship is not a matter of convenience and should not be treated as such. There are allegiances involved that need to be earned in one direction and protected in the other. There are obligations to live here as a Canadian citizen and there are obligations to live elsewhere as a Canadian citizen that should not be compromised.

    This doesn't mean one should not be able live in Canada as a Canadian resident but a non-citizen and it doesn't mean that one should not be able to live outside Canada as a Canadian citizen but a non-resident.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  3. #3

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    ^I would support that, I think its the way a lot of countries are starting to go. Its not anti-multicultural, people are still welcome from anywhere if you meet the requirements, and can stay with permanent residence if they don't want to give up the other country citizenship, but you should commit to Canada if you want to vote in Canada.

    The flip side to that, if you take another countries citizenship, you should give up Canadian citizenship as well. My father who is from the Netherlands had to do that when he immigrated to NZ.

    I don't see that changing though unless maybe people are grandfathererd (it would be politically harmful for any party to be seen as taking something away from many people), but the elected office one grates on me. What happens when Canada goes to war with a country that a politician is a dual citizen of? Or gets in a Trade Dispute? Or makes a military purchase from? There are so many potential conflicts.
    Last edited by moahunter; 27-10-2017 at 11:19 AM.

  4. #4

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    Oh boy, another thread where I can be called un-Canadian & untrustworthy, despite being a born & raised Canadian, likely by a poorly-adapted immigrant who after 20 years continues to hold & promote values that run counter to those that this country was founded on.

    Hooooorrraaaaaay.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Oh boy, another thread where I can be called un-Canadian & untrustworthy, despite being a born & raised Canadian, likely by a poorly-adapted immigrant who after 20 years continues to hold & promote values that run counter to those that this country was founded on.

    Hooooorrraaaaaay.
    firstly, being canadian and being trustworthy are not synonymous.

    secondly, being non-canadian and being non-trustworthy are not synonymous either.

    it seems that your own circumstances have led you to present an emotional straw-man argument that misses the point. you have a dual citizenship despite being born here because an immigrant parent or two chose to keep their initial citizenship. that doesn't make you more or less trustworthy than your neighbor whose parents gave up their previous citizenship when they become canadian.

    why should you be entitled to a status your neighbor doesn't have? unless you think that any canadian citizen should be able to hold citizenship from any country their parents happened to come from. of course that might be a bit complicated if they came from different countries. and why should we start to discriminate based on where your parents came from? for third generation canadians, why not allow dual citizenship for the asking from the country or countries your grandparents emigrated from?

    maybe we could all hold two or three or four passports instead of just one... because at the end of the day that doesn't add value or commitment to being a citizen, it waters it down instead both for the citizen and for the country.
    Last edited by kcantor; 27-10-2017 at 11:31 AM.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    why should you be entitled to a status your neighbor doesn't have?
    German law.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    unless you think that any canadian citizen should be able to hold citizenship from any country their parents happened to come from.
    That'd depend on the other countries to determine. It's not my place as a Canadian (or German) to speak to/about their citizenship requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    of course that might be a bit complicated if they came from different countries. and why should we start to discriminate based on where your parents came from?
    It's up to the other countries to determine their own qualifications for citizenship. I met the qualifications for Germany & as such I have dual citizenship.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    for third generation canadians, why not allow dual citizenship for the asking from the country or countries your grandparents emigrated from?
    Once again, it's up to the countries in question to determine their own qualifications for what is & isn't a citizen of their country. Self-determination & all that.
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  7. #7

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    ^And its up to Canada as well. Many countries do not allow their citizens to hold dual citizenship, I think that's the better way.

  8. #8

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    Yeah, and you also believe the government should be above the law & able to ignore the constitution, so you'll forgive me if I immediately file your suggestion into the garbage with the rest of your authoritarian claptrap.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Yeah, and you also believe the government should be above the law & able to ignore the constitution, so you'll forgive me if I immediately file your suggestion into the garbage with the rest of your authoritarian claptrap.
    You are confusing the constitution of Canada (which derives from British law), with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (called the Constitution Act but not the Constitution) - not surprising as you generally come across as a bit limited in terms of education / knowledge. Neither is perfect - for example why does the Charter protect French and English but ignore indigenous languages? Why don't those languages, which are the only truly unique Canadian languages, have special status in parliament?
    Last edited by moahunter; 27-10-2017 at 11:52 AM.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    You are confusing the constitution of Canada (which derives from British law), with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms - not surprising as you generally come across as a bit limited in terms of education / knowledge. Neither is perfect.
    I would have thought in your 20 years of being about the worst Canadian I can imagine you'd have learnt at least the basics of your adopted homeland.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadi...s_and_Freedoms

    The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (French: La Charte canadienne des droits et libertés), in Canada often simply the Charter, is a bill of rights entrenched in the Constitution of Canada. It forms the first part of the Constitution Act, 1982.


    My god, you're a human dumpster fire on so many levels.
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  11. #11

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    ^its just a subset, and a racist one at that in its priority of the French and Canadian languages ahead of indigenous languages - but carry on with your belief that it is perfect in all respects.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^its just a subset, and a racist one at that in its priority of the French and Canadian languages ahead of indigenous languages - but carry on with your belief that it is perfect in all respects.
    Did I say it was perfect? Sweet jesus, I don't even think you understand what comes out of your own mouth inbetween breaths but please refrain from trying to put words in my mouth to distract from the fact you're ignorant.
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  13. #13

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    ^so, if its not perfect, its ok if its improved, right?... and its ok to discuss different ideas to improve it? Like:

    - limiting its application to citizens in Canada
    - clarifying rules around citizenship
    - banning government office / military for dual citizens
    - recognizing indigenous language's are official languages, etc.
    Last edited by moahunter; 27-10-2017 at 12:03 PM.

  14. #14

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    We can agree that the Constitution, and the Charter entrenched therein have many flaws.

    However, we disagree on whether or not not being able to suspend human rights to help an ally torture a citizen in an illegal detention camp is a flaw or not. You think the government should be allowed to, I don't. That's what makes you an authoritarian & is a big part of why I find you to be a truly terrible example of my fellow Canadians.

    Hell, my wife doesn't even have her PR card yet & she's a better Canadian than you'll ever be, moa.
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  15. #15

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    One would think that these 4 or 5 politicians in Australia would have looked into their status of dual citizenship before they ran for office. Or that the government would send out directives and vetted all people running for office. This surely would stop people from wasting time and running for office in the first place.
    I have no sympathy for the government in this matter. Complete failure on their part for not informing candidates of their rights. Or if candidates lied it's their own fault for the situation they are now in. They should ask the candidates involved if they want to give up their other citizenship so that they can still hold their seats.
    I'm not against dual citizenship. For the majority of people it's not an issue either. Most people adhere and are true to the country they have made a living in and lived in the longest. Many of them just hold one passport even though they could hold two. Millions of people all over the world hold dual citizenship. Is it a major problem, no.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Hell, my wife doesn't even have her PR card yet & she's a better Canadian than you'll ever be, moa.
    But that there sums up the difference between me and you, I don't think I'm a better or worse Canadian than any Canadian ever will be, including your wife or even you. Even a criminal, even Khadr, we all make choices, and we are what we are - where I disagree with you is I don't feel the same values in terms of rewarding or punishing people for one action or another.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    But that there sums up the difference between me and you, I don't think I'm a better or worse Canadian than any Canadian ever will be, including your wife or even you.
    But you've said repeatedly that some Canadians don't deserve human rights. If that was even close to being true (and not a completely transparent attempt to boost yourself), surely all Canadians should be afforded the equal protection of the Constitution & Charter, no? You're also arguing in this very thread that by my very nature of having dual citizenship that I'm somehow less of a Canadian than others & should not be afforded the same opportunities as other Canadians.

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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    One would think that these 4 or 5 politicians in Australia would have looked into their status of dual citizenship before they ran for office.
    You would think so - where they might have screwed up is they were born in NZ and their parents took them to Australia as children, or something like that. But they should have checked, or perhaps more so, their party should have checked, like any job.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    But that there sums up the difference between me and you, I don't think I'm a better or worse Canadian than any Canadian ever will be, including your wife or even you.
    But you've said repeatedly that some Canadians don't deserve human rights.
    I never said that - I have said that Canada shouldn't have an obligation to save every Canadian everywhere in the world from bad things happening to them - that's not saying one Canadian is better than another. I think adults get mostly what they deserve in life, I don't expect Canada to save me when I am outside Canada, or to be "non-complicit" with respect to something horrible that happens to me in another country, and I think its pretty stupid that the courts are ruling that the charter requires that - it indicates another flaw in the charter, or a self-enriching (re lawyers) flaw in the courts interpretation of it.
    Last edited by moahunter; 27-10-2017 at 12:16 PM.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I never said that - I have said that Canada shouldn't have an obligation to save every Canadian everywhere in the world from bad things happening to them - that's not saying one Canadian is better than another. I think people get mostly what they deserve in life, I don't expect Canada to save me when I am outside Canada, and I think its pretty stupid that the courts are ruling that the charter requires that.
    You think it's pretty stupid that Canadian government officials have to obey Canadian laws, the Charter & the Constitution when dealing with Canadian citizens, regardless of where those citizens should happen to be. That sure sounds like you think some Canadians should be denied their human rights by the government, which would be unequal.
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  21. #21

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    ^I didn't know there was a Canadian law that said if a Canadian kills an American soldier, and American locks them up and treats them nicer than they would be treated in any middle east jail but maybe not as nice as a Canadian prision, and CSIS goes and interviews that Canadian, then you have to pay that Canadian $10m, but good one for pretending that's the case - its certainly what Trudeau thinks. Nothing to do with this thread though.

  22. #22

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    ^moa, you would be singing a different tune if the Canadian needing help abroad was you or one of your own.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  23. #23

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    ^If I got help I'd appreciate it, but there are plenty of Canadians in jails in communist, middle east authoritarian, and other countries, maybe some of them have even been interviewed by CSIS at some point, some of them probably being tortured far worse than this individual was, who aren't going to ever get free, let alone get $10m (that their lawyer, likely a buddy of the judge, if the judge had gotten to rule, gets to share). But heck, a Canadian child ripped from their family by the state right here in Canada (not on some foreign land where they were running round with IED's to kill Canadian soldiers) and stuck in an abusive school, gets squat, its so appropriate and fair. Again though, nothing to do with this thread.
    Last edited by moahunter; 27-10-2017 at 12:28 PM.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I didn't know there was a Canadian law that said if a Canadian kills an American soldier, and American locks them up and treats them nicer than they would be treated in any middle east jail but maybe not as nice as a Canadian prision, and CSIS goes and interviews that Canadian under false pretenses denying them their right to due process, then you have to pay that Canadian $10m, but good one for pretending that's the case - its certainly what Trudeau thinks. Nothing to do with this thread though.
    You love intentionally forgetting the part I boldly inserted. And there is a law against it. It's called the Constitution Act, 1982.

    As to what it has to do with this thread? It provides context into you being a terrible & intentionally ignorant person who doesn't understand basic Canadian law & therefore ideally unsuitable to actually participate in this discussion. It's like getting backpack reviews from someone with no arms.
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  25. #25

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    ^Well provide some cases to us so we can form opinions on them. Give us some examples of Canadians in jails who's rights are being violated. Keep in mind that the Canadian government or the government who's jails they are in may be working behind the scenes to free them. Give us examples also of Canadians who are being tortured abroad where the Canadian government is being complicit in their torture.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Give us examples also of Canadians who are being tortured abroad where the Canadian government is being complicit in their torture.
    You mean besides Khadr, Arar & the 3 guys from earlier this week?
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  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I didn't know there was a Canadian law that said if a Canadian kills an American soldier, and American locks them up and treats them nicer than they would be treated in any middle east jail but maybe not as nice as a Canadian prision, and CSIS goes and interviews that Canadian under false pretenses denying them their right to due process, then you have to pay that Canadian $10m, but good one for pretending that's the case - its certainly what Trudeau thinks. Nothing to do with this thread though.
    You love intentionally forgetting the part I boldly inserted. And there is a law against it. It's called the Constitution Act, 1982.

    As to what it has to do with this thread? It provides context into you being a terrible & intentionally ignorant person who doesn't understand basic Canadian law & therefore ideally unsuitable to actually participate in this discussion. It's like getting backpack reviews from someone with no arms.
    Got it - you think the families of aboriginal children got due rights and process when their kids were ripped away from them and repeatedly assaulted in Canadian schools so they don't deserve $10m each courtesy of a Trudeau hand out before the court case is even finished. We can **** you up in Canada and pay you peanuts but if we know some other country is ******* you up overseas we owe you a fortune.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Got it - you think the families of aboriginal children got due rights and process when their kids were ripped away from them and repeatedly assaulted in Canadian schools so they don't deserve $10m.
    Once again you're putting words into my mouth that are patently incorrect & making huge sweeping generalizations that are pretty obviously against my general character based upon your own repugnant & overtly negative interpretation of anything I say.

    Pathetic.
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  29. #29

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    Oh. Looks like moahunter will be stuck with his NZ citizenship...



    That's gonna be a sticking point.

    (https://www.govt.nz/browse/nz-passpo...z-citizenship/)
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  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Give us examples also of Canadians who are being tortured abroad where the Canadian government is being complicit in their torture.
    You mean besides Khadr, Arar & the 3 guys from earlier this week?
    I mean moa give us examples of Canadians abroad now who's rights are being violated. He keeps stating there are plenty of them.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I mean moa give us examples of Canadians abroad now who's rights are being violated. He keeps stating there are plenty of them.
    Fair enough! Threading conversations gets tough here.
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  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I didn't know there was a Canadian law that said if a Canadian kills an American soldier, and American locks them up and treats them nicer than they would be treated in any middle east jail but maybe not as nice as a Canadian prision, and CSIS goes and interviews that Canadian under false pretenses denying them their right to due process, then you have to pay that Canadian $10m, but good one for pretending that's the case - its certainly what Trudeau thinks. Nothing to do with this thread though.
    You love intentionally forgetting the part I boldly inserted. And there is a law against it. It's called the Constitution Act, 1982.

    As to what it has to do with this thread? It provides context into you being a terrible & intentionally ignorant person who doesn't understand basic Canadian law & therefore ideally unsuitable to actually participate in this discussion. It's like getting backpack reviews from someone with no arms.
    Got it - you think the families of aboriginal children got due rights and process when their kids were ripped away from them and repeatedly assaulted in Canadian schools so they don't deserve $10m each courtesy of a Trudeau hand out before the court case is even finished. We can **** you up in Canada and pay you peanuts but if we know some other country is ******* you up overseas we owe you a fortune.
    Did the churches involved in these abuses of our indigenous people every pay them anything. Did we get a monetary figure from the Catholic Church or the Church of England etc for abuses. Did the indigenous people of Canada ever approach the church for compensation?.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Got it - you think the families of aboriginal children got due rights and process when their kids were ripped away from them and repeatedly assaulted in Canadian schools so they don't deserve $10m each courtesy of a Trudeau hand out before the court case is even finished.
    There you go, putting incorrect words in my mouth again. Hilarious.

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    We can **** you up in Canada and pay you peanuts but if we know some other country is ******* you up overseas we owe you a fortune.
    And back to intentionally, ignorantly, disingenuously & incorrectly describing the circumstances behind the settlements. Who (beyond yourself) do you think you're fooling?

    You've gone from talking like a PostMedia Op-Ed to full on Fox News contributor recently. It's getting hard to stifle the laughs at work, so if you can dial it back a bit I'd appreciate it.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    why should you be entitled to a status your neighbor doesn't have?
    German law.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    unless you think that any canadian citizen should be able to hold citizenship from any country their parents happened to come from.
    That'd depend on the other countries to determine. It's not my place as a Canadian (or German) to speak to/about their citizenship requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    of course that might be a bit complicated if they came from different countries. and why should we start to discriminate based on where your parents came from?
    It's up to the other countries to determine their own qualifications for citizenship. I met the qualifications for Germany & as such I have dual citizenship.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    for third generation canadians, why not allow dual citizenship for the asking from the country or countries your grandparents emigrated from?
    Once again, it's up to the countries in question to determine their own qualifications for what is & isn't a citizen of their country. Self-determination & all that.
    So what would stop Canada from making it a requirement for citizenship that Canadians not hold citizenship in any other country?

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Oh boy, another thread where I can be called un-Canadian & untrustworthy, despite being a born & raised Canadian, likely by a poorly-adapted immigrant who after 20 years continues to hold & promote values that run counter to those that this country was founded on.

    Hooooorrraaaaaay.

    What the heck is s poorly adapted immigrant?

    Moreover you’re speaking for a lot of long dead people that can’t defend or clarify themselves against characterization’s of them. Canada’s founding values are a mixed bag of morals, opinions, personal biases, power relationships and other influences that are very hard to compile into a definitive set of “Canadians values”.

    I also believe that Canada’s immigrants have long influenced the ever evolving values of other Canadians, the law and government. Immigration can introduce a lot of older more fundamentalist values from any number of cultures and religions that are very much in opposition to any current liberalization of values.

    Moreover, I know a number of Canadian born people with values almost exactly like those I perceive moa holds and espouses. In fact on some issues he’s far, far more liberal and egalitarian in his thinking than some Canadian born that I’ve known. I know Canadian born that would literally have been a near perfect fit in the late 1930s German value system and supremely decent one time refugee to Canada that in his youth thought that the government should buy every Canadian a house and I’ve encountered foreign born and Canadian born residents that would be shoe-ins for any movement to strip away any number of equality rights, from women’s rights, gay rights, First Nations rights, etc.

    Then on the issue of dual citizenship and split loyalties , many millions of Canadians hold follow different religions and other belief systems where the highest authority(s) instructing them in appropriate values, behaviours and actions, are not of Canada or of our Commonwealth but are instead foreign born and foreign resident heads of their religions, organizations, political ideologies, etc. I’d say dual citizenship is not s big deal as long as while they are on the job they swear allegiance to Canada (the Queen I suppose) and recuse themselves in any potential conflicting circumstances.

  36. #36

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    [QUOTE=noodle;853704]Oh. Looks like moahunter will be stuck with his NZ citizenship...



    That's gonna be a sticking point.

    (https://www.govt.nz/browse/nz-passpo...z-citizenship/)[/QUOTEI

    I suppose an issue of dual citizenship is the potential for dividend loyalties, so perhaps there is an argument for dealing with it on a case by case basis. I don't think New Zealand and Canada have very many conflicts, probably none that serious.

    In any event, I think office holders swear an oath to serve, so I would think that would take precedence over any secondary citizenship. If there was a matter that came up that put them in a potential conflict, I suppose they could also recuse themselves from that particular matter if the conflict was intractable to them personally. Generally I would expect someone who has lived in Canada for a long time would not feel much loyalty to another country just because they were born their or spent a few years there. However, it might be useful for them to still keep the second citizenship for travel purposes or if they have family there, etc...

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    So what would stop Canada from making it a requirement for citizenship that Canadians not hold citizenship in any other country?
    Diplomacy?

    Seriously, there's nothing stopping Canada from changing the law & forcing everyone to pick a side & renounce the other.
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  38. #38
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    I find find most countries' citizenship laws rather odd. Some countries (like Germany) grant citizenship to foreign-born children of expats who have never lived in the country, while denying citizenship to the children of migrant workers who were born and raised there. We are not quite as wacky here in Canada, but we do grant citizenship to people who were born here but who left as young children and have never been residents, while people who came as young children and grew up here need to apply for citizenship (and can be denied despite having no other home).

  39. #39
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    Yes they should be allowed to run for Federal office. If they win they should renounce their other citizenship.

    I see no reason why a dual citizenship citizen should not be allowed to run for provincial or municipal office.

    I don't think that children born to foreign parents here on tourists visas should automatically get citizenship.

  40. #40

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    In some cases where pregnant women purposely go to other countries to have their babies just so that baby can get citizenship of their country of birth that should be looked into. These babies are called 'anchor babies'. Once born in certain countries the baby is a citizen of the country. If it can be proved the birth was planned just so that the mother could gain access to that country they should be deported. It is a very underhanded way of gaining access to a country without going through the proper channels.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    why should you be entitled to a status your neighbor doesn't have?
    German law.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    unless you think that any canadian citizen should be able to hold citizenship from any country their parents happened to come from.
    That'd depend on the other countries to determine. It's not my place as a Canadian (or German) to speak to/about their citizenship requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    of course that might be a bit complicated if they came from different countries. and why should we start to discriminate based on where your parents came from?
    It's up to the other countries to determine their own qualifications for citizenship. I met the qualifications for Germany & as such I have dual citizenship.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    for third generation canadians, why not allow dual citizenship for the asking from the country or countries your grandparents emigrated from?
    Once again, it's up to the countries in question to determine their own qualifications for what is & isn't a citizen of their country. Self-determination & all that.
    interesting responses but...

    i was commenting on canadian law and my thoughts on canadian law, not german law.

    i concur that it's not my place to speak to/about the citizenship requirements of other countries but it is my place to do so regarding canadian requirements.

    i concur that it's up to other countries to determine their own qualifications for citizenship but it is up to canada to determine ours.

    i concur, once again, it's up to the countries in question to determine their own qualifications for what is and isn't a citizen of their country. self-determination & all that but self-determination and all that applies to the individual as well as the country and it should apply as well in both directions.

    i don't believe you can pick and choose citizenship as a matter of convenience simply depending on where you are or what you're involved in or the strength of your emotions on a particular day. two sovereign countries cannot be expected to provide you with the benefits and protections of citizenship at the same time just as an individual cannot have allegiance to two countries simultaneously.

    is there a compromise where one is actual citizenship and the other might be "honorary" in that it respects background or ancestry or even simple choice but carries no formal allegiance on behalf of the individual or obligation on behalf of the country (including the issuance of a passport)? probably... but failing that, a dual citizenship by definition is a compromise by the individual and both countries where the sum total for all is less than a zero sum game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Yes they should be allowed to run for Federal office. If they win they should renounce their other citizenship.

    I see no reason why a dual citizenship citizen should not be allowed to run for provincial or municipal office.

    I don't think that children born to foreign parents here on tourists visas should automatically get citizenship.
    what you seem to find allowable is now simply further segmenting what should be inalienalbe rights for all citizens and it is that very segmentation that is problematic with dual citizenship in the first place. you're breaking it down further like this simply creates a third set of unequal citizenship to run parallel with the existing set... once you need to create exemptions and special rules like this, you are simply dealing with something that shouldn't exist in the first place.
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    Like everything in life nothing is straight forward. If a person visits another country and meets a mate and then decides to get married they then no doubt have to figure out where they are going to live. If they decide on one of their countries the partner that moves should be able to retain citizenship in their native country and also obtain citizenship for the country of their spouse. If the marriage does break down the spouse that moved would at least be able to return to their country of birth if need be. I should imagine 99% of people who carry dual citizenship run into no problems. It's only cases where maybe there is or could be a conflict of interest where these things crop up. In the case of the Australian politicians it seems the Auzzies should have be pro-active in their screening rather than re-active after the fact. You would think that when someone runs for office the issue of dual citizenship would have been covered years ago. After all, Australia is a country of immigrants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Like everything in life nothing is straight forward. If a person visits another country and meets a mate and then decides to get married they then no doubt have to figure out where they are going to live. If they decide on one of their countries the partner that moves should be able to retain citizenship in their native country and also obtain citizenship for the country of their spouse. If the marriage does break down the spouse that moved would at least be able to return to their country of birth if need be. I should imagine 99% of people who carry dual citizenship run into no problems. It's only cases where maybe there is or could be a conflict of interest where these things crop up. In the case of the Australian politicians it seems the Auzzies should have be pro-active in their screening rather than re-active after the fact. You would think that when someone runs for office the issue of dual citizenship would have been covered years ago. After all, Australia is a country of immigrants.
    99% of citizens don't do or require lots of things so there's "no problems". except our laws are often enacted and written and there for when there are problems, not when there isn't. most people don't speed, most people don't steal or murder, most people don't cheat on their taxes or require open heart surgery... we don't pass laws or legislation for individuals when those things happen, we enact in anticipation when it comes to both the responsibilities and rights of the individual and the state.. what happens when that couple go to some third country for a holiday - not necessarily even a third world country. which embassy do they contact for assistance? which country is obligated to try and represent their interests as citizens or to repatriate them? which country subsidizes their university educations or pays pensions? what citizen's rights are the individuals entitled to as citizens from those countries? it's not just a matter of where you choose to live - you can live somewhere without being a citizen. the underlying principals here aren't about residency, they're about citizenship and the obligations that imposes on both the individual and the country.
    Last edited by kcantor; 27-10-2017 at 04:53 PM.
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    ^One would think with Australia being a country of immigrants that this issue of politicians and dual citizenship would have been visited before. I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden their are 4 politicians in Australian who have ran for office, won and carry dual citizenship. The issue should have been dealt with when the paperwork for nominees and people running for office was sent out. In big bold letters it should state that if you are a dual citizen don't run for office.
    Myself, I have no issue with dual citizenship. It hardly every seems to cause issues for most people. If governments think it's a problem they should tackle it but keep in mind the 99% of dual citizens cause no problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^One would think with Australia being a country of immigrants that this issue of politicians and dual citizenship would have been visited before. I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden their are 4 politicians in Australian who have ran for office, won and carry dual citizenship. The issue should have been dealt with when the paperwork for nominees and people running for office was sent out. In big bold letters it should state that if you are a dual citizen don't run for office.
    Myself, I have no issue with dual citizenship. It hardly every seems to cause issues for most people. If governments think it's a problem they should tackle it but keep in mind the 99% of dual citizens cause no problems.
    i think the current discussion in australia was probably commenced based on political opportunism. on the other hand, the canadian governments evacuation of thousands of dual citizens from lebanon was a much different consequence for both canada and for many of those individuals. they were welcomed to canada - and rightfully so - as citizens but chose to return to lebanon with what became a passport of convenience that they were ultimately able to cash. this isn't a middle eastern nor a muslim phenomenom - it arose a decade before that in hong kong and other parts of asia and before that in what was then rhodesia and in south africa...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    ^Well I agree there is one big loop hole there that was definitely exploited by some citizens. What should happen is the Canadian government should fix loop holes like that before they happen again. Be pro-active rather than re-active. For the other dual citizens that cause no problems what so ever I say keep on keeping on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Well I agree there is one big loop hole there that was definitely exploited by some citizens. What should happen is the Canadian government should fix loop holes like that before they happen again. Be pro-active rather than re-active. For the other dual citizens that cause no problems what so ever I say keep on keeping on.
    Agree. Even if elected I don’t see a problem except where there may be a conflict of interest of some sort and we probably already have rules in place for such conflicts it could easily write up some.

    However stop anyone from fighting for any cause that our own Government hasn’t officially approved them to get involved in. No foreign military training camps etc unless approved, etc.

    Maybe new rules if out of the country for some period of time, some rules on filing tax returns on income (but nothing as onerous as the US).

    Basically I haven’t heard of any great problems and where there is some, why not just deal with those.
    Last edited by KC; 27-10-2017 at 08:15 PM.

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    Well if you consider people like Finance Minister Bill Morneau, I don't the problem is having dual citizenship, rather that unscrupulous people think they can do anything regardless of the rules.

    There might be times where someone holding dual citizenship might have to recuse themselves of voting on certain issues, but asides then that I see no major issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Well I agree there is one big loop hole there that was definitely exploited by some citizens. What should happen is the Canadian government should fix loop holes like that before they happen again. Be pro-active rather than re-active. For the other dual citizens that cause no problems what so ever I say keep on keeping on.
    except i’m not sure the one big loophole in most of these cases is the dual citizenship itself. unless you think there should be a different rule for dual citizens than for single citizens that engage in certain activities or behaviours.
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    ^No Ken, I don't think their should be different rules for dual citizens. In situations when dual citizens get caught up in certain scenarios the outcome should be the same. In situations when single citizens get caught up in certain scenarios the outcome should be the same. I don't know what you are alluding to so you will have to be more pacific rather than the wishy washy innuendo of a reply you just gave.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^No Ken, I don't think their should be different rules for dual citizens. In situations when dual citizens get caught up in certain scenarios the outcome should be the same. In situations when single citizens get caught up in certain scenarios the outcome should be the same. I don't know what you are alluding to so you will have to be more pacific rather than the wishy washy innuendo of a reply you just gave.
    if you allow dual citizenship then you have one set of canadian citizens that has opportunities and advantages and obligations from the canadian government that the rest of us don’t have. that’s wrong. if you want to be a citizen of another country then you should not be allowed to be a canadian citizen at the same time. is that clear enough for you?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    ^Sure it's clear enough for me but I not convinced your right.
    Life if not cut and dried. There are going to be people who have and want to hold dual citizenship. All over the world people are doing this. Can't see it as having being a huge problem at least not on these shores. If it was a problem the government would have tackled it a long time a go.
    Why are you acting like someone pi$$ed in your corn flakes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Sure it's clear enough for me but I not convinced your right.
    Life if not cut and dried. There are going to be people who have and want to hold dual citizenship. All over the world people are doing this. Can't see it as having being a huge problem at least not on these shores. If it was a problem the government would have tackled it a long time a go. The
    Why are you acting like someone pi$$ed in your corn flakes.
    nothing wrong with my corn flakes - you’re the one that said i wasn’t being clear enough for you.
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    Thoughts on this: at a minimum should people from other Commonwealth countries be allowed dual citizenship?

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    It would be nice if being a member of the Commonwealth counted for something. Perhaps joint passports, we could work in UK, Australia... and they could work here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Thoughts on this: at a minimum should people from other Commonwealth countries be allowed dual citizenship?
    I think people who obtain dual citizenship tend to have a vested interest in their new country. Usually they have put down roots in the way of permanent jobs, houses, marriage, pensions etc. To obtain citizenship you have to have lived in Canada for a period of time then no doubt give a valid reason for wanting Citizenship.
    I don't think just giving people dual citizenship because the belong in the Commonwealth is particularly fair. Citizenship applications should be vetted and not automatic. Another thing, I don't think citizens of Commonwealth countries should be favored over non Commonwealth countries. Commonwealth countries hold about 30% of the worlds population, over 2 billion people. Even if 25% of those people wanted to move within the Commonwealth on dual citizenship papers it sounds like one big headache to me. Plus there would be very little room for non Commonwealth people to emigrate if countries had to supply social infrastructure for so many people. Dual Citizenship as is seems to work just fine with few hick ups. In fact, I don't think their is a particularly high percentage of Canadians that carry dual citizenship, figures seem hard to find.


    http://www.international.gc.ca/commo....aspx?lang=eng
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    Judging by my circle of friends and acquaintances, my guess is under 5% of Canadians have 2 or more citizenships, I wouldn't be surprised if it is under 2%.

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    an interesting "twist" on the retention of dual citizenship, at least for those with american citizenship:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tran...ions-1.4639020

    all of a sudden uncle sam wants his cut and it's too late to renounce now that the bill for that nice little no-cost no harm/no foul perk has suddenly been sent for payment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    an interesting "twist" on the retention of dual citizenship, at least for those with american citizenship:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tran...ions-1.4639020

    all of a sudden uncle sam wants his cut and it's too late to renounce now that the bill for that nice little no-cost no harm/no foul perk has suddenly been sent for payment.
    Good for Uncle Sam. I wonder how long before other countries start taxing their citizens no matter where they are in the world ?? Money talks, I'll bet there is a number of dual Canada/US citizens thinking long and hard about if they really "need" dual US/Canada citizenship.

    Countries would be much smarter if they allowed only one citizenship to be active at one time. If you move to your other country, and after a year, your other citizenship becomes active and your Canadian citizenship becomes suspended. Forces people to put some 'skin in the game'

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    That makes sense.

    Either pay taxes or declare non-residency. Non-resident citizens don’t get access to services except passport& consular, because to withdraw those would render people de facto stateless.
    There can only be one.

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    Yes, makes sense.

    Constitutional guarantees would probably prevent some of it.

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    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trum...form-1.4644074

    Should we use our money to help people who left their money in corporations and who are now subject to tax, and by the way are US citizens.. Ohh, the holes we dig for ourselves.Chances are that these people decided not to pay themselves full salaries to avoid income tax, write off expenses and deductions to reduce their liabilities. This should not have been a surprise. The US has decided to tax US citizens worldwide in the last few years, so it should not have been a surprise to a US citizen who had cash sitting in a corporation.In reality, if they had emptied their corporation each year, paid Canadian tax they would not be caught in this situation.

    Maybe they should have revoked US citizenship a few years ago when Trump started making noise about this.... nope, it's far easier to wait, complain, then demand the Canadian taxpayer 'help out'.

    Sorry, but no thanks. Money in your pocket is better than money in your corporations bank account.

    Just saying, sure sounds like dual citizenships causing all sorts of issues.
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    I think you probably should give up your dual citizenship if you are the Prime Minister, Premier, Foreign Affairs minister, Governor General or Lieutenant Governor, with an exception for people holding UK passports, I'd assume you can represent the queen nicely being both.

    Anyone else, why not. Just if there is perceived conflict of interest, you shouldn't vote.

    Am I biased yes of course, everybody is to some degree, however my wife does have the possibility of becoming a dual citizen (she's a permanent resident currently)

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