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Thread: Provincial Super Lab - South Campus

  1. #301
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    Aye Aye Ian...I wish you the best of luck...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  2. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^You continue to misconstrue or do not read completely. The business I am speaking about is running our Government and providing services as a whole, not to service delivery specifically.

    Please go speak with the average Albertan or people in the business world, most have told me that our Government's spending is needing correction and Healthcare is ground zero.
    That spending needs to be addressed may have no impact here. Its' entirely possible that the new lab could deliver services at lower cost than the existing system. Without landlord profit, and lab operator profit there could be significant savings available.

    You, your organization and your members (with the exception of the one losing the contract and so with a huge vested interest) have no more expertise in the matter than any other handful of random citizens.
    There can only be one.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Healthcare spending per capita in this Province is the highest in Canada and 20% higher than in BC and yet you think that we have some sort of issue in providing quality care and resources?

    It simply is not sustainable and to then increase said spending from both capital and operational sides makes me question your ability to understand the financial realities of a basic business here.
    soooooo....

    our health care costs per capita are the highest in Canada and 20% higher than in bc. don't you think that this is one of those steps needed to reduce those costs and provide better and more timely results so that it reduces overall costs within the system even if it means investing in a new facility? if it's the current status quo that is not sustainable, why are you so adamant about maintaining it"

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^You continue to misconstrue or do not read completely. The business I am speaking about is running our Government and providing services as a whole, not to service delivery specifically.

    Please go speak with the average Albertan or people in the business world, most have told me that our Government's spending is needing correction and Healthcare is ground zero.
    except that your position has nothing to do with providing services as a whole (which is what the new lab is meant to do) and everything to do with service delivery specifically in an area where you have no expertise.

    yes, most business people will tell you that government spending needs correction and healthcare is "ground zero" but those are (a) not interchangeable in the way you're linking them and (b) as noted above you're assuming this will increase overall health delivery costs and not reduce them through shorter hospital stays and earlier diagnostics etc. with no real basis for your conclusion.

    and for what it's worth, i don't believe i'm misconstrueing anything you've written or that i've not completely read everything you've written.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  4. #304

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    That's correct, it will be. We all know that Matt, but is this the right time (Downtown aside) to be building a $400-500,000,000.00 lab and making it a Crown Corp from a taxpayers perspective given our financial state and very real concerns over spending in this great Province. We have have to balance the healthcare needs and delivery for all Albertans with the fiscal realities we are facing, you know, that $10,000,000,000.00 deficit and an ever growing debt at $42,000,000,000.00 and counting. This is expected to be around $71,000,000,000.00 in 2 years. Money is relatively cheap still, so many it is a good time to build, but as we have heard from MANY economists, our macroeconomic policy is in need of a fix, our spending continues without a clear direction on how a more balanced budget (looking forward to it in a couple of weeks) will be worked out and no comment on our ever increasing debt and increasing debt servicing costs of ~$2,000,000,000.00. I am a social liberal, but fiscal conservative and the chat around the proverbial water cooler in the business community is that we need to address spending.

    So I say again, is this the best investment right now?
    Oh I see, keeping DynaLife downtown is done out of a sense of provincial patriotism. You want to kill the superlab for the betterment of the province. But, if the province decided to build it downtown somehow, it would be the best news ever and the DBA would fully support it?

    "Forget about getting your lab results in a timely manner. Forget about bringing the lab into the 21st century. The DBA would be out a few bucks if the lab moved from downtown."

  5. #305

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    It likely is and we have already begun that motion, but a lot can change between now and 2021.

    The general consensus from the business community and not just the Downtown business community is that our spending is a real concern and that steps MUST be made to curtail it. This includes major capital projects.
    OK, time to kill the provincial funding for the Valley line. Shut it down until things get better. Construction and planning.

    Oh wait, you mean curtailing spending everywhere except downtown or downtown related.

    Gotcha.

  6. #306

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Our position is clear. We are supporting Councillor McKeen's inquiry, supporting our member business Dynalife and supporting the intent of our organization Richard. This is about jobs in the Downtown and their economic impact to our Downtown and supporting member businesses.

    And again, we certainly are here to support AIMCO in their future redevelopment when that occurs.
    The problem as others have pointed out and you seemed to have ignored (post #203) is you're obsession with downtown. You need to look at the bigger picture and think about ecomonic impact to Edmonton, to Alberta as a whole and not just "Downtown".



  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Our position is clear. We are supporting Councillor McKeen's inquiry, supporting our member business Dynalife and supporting the intent of our organization Richard. This is about jobs in the Downtown and their economic impact to our Downtown and supporting member businesses.

    And again, we certainly are here to support AIMCO in their future redevelopment when that occurs.
    The problem as others have pointed out and you seemed to have ignored (post #203) is you're obsession with downtown. You need to look at the bigger picture and think about ecomonic impact to Edmonton, to Alberta as a whole and not just "Downtown".


    Regardless if Dynalife personel move or not, the super lab will be built. I think everyone forgets this is a merger between AHS lab staff and Dynalife to one location. UofA is out of space, Royal Alex is out of space, and the lab staff are crammed into their space like sardines at the hospitals. In addition, they want to start doing some more rare analysis within the Province to improve turn around times. They need space for the equipment... and "clean" space at that. AHS staff going to this location do outnumber Dynalife staff. This doesn't impact collections staff... since the new facility won't be taking walk ins for blood collection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    OK, time to kill the provincial funding for the Valley line.


    YES !!

    Shut this money pit down !

  9. #309
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    So the original announcement said the Lab will be open by 2022, is that timeline still correct? If so, will construction begin this year?
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    So the original announcement said the Lab will be open by 2022, is that timeline still correct? If so, will construction begin this year?
    The update I got from my "better half" is that they are persisting to stay on schedule. There is no appetite to go through another contract renewal for leases or for negotiations with Dynalife. Right now the staff at both AHS and Dynalife are jittery still since they don't have a lot of certainty still on job security. AHS has been keeping the staff generally in the loop... but lots of questions still. I heard they get to keep their pensions though!

  11. #311

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    The province wants shovels in the ground no later than this fall so there is no chance the next government, should it differ from the current one, can kill this.

  12. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    The problem as others have pointed out and you seemed to have ignored (post #203) is you're obsession with downtown. You need to look at the bigger picture and think about ecomonic impact to Edmonton, to Alberta as a whole and not just "Downtown".
    Ian's opinion is bought & paid for, so it's not really fair to say he's not looking at the bigger picture.

    His picture is only as big as he needs it to be to manage the wants of the special-interest group he directs that's directly funded by many who've got an interest in maintaining the current status quo as it helps their bottom line.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  13. #313

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    yes, healthcare costs per capita are the highest in Canada. Does the average Albertan realize this? Probably not.

    How is this fixed? Investment - sometimes in Capital, sometimes in things like ConnectCare. Of course other things fix this like looking at fees and rates of pay vs scope of practice, but that's not what this thread is about.

    One time investments in much needed technology that will ultimately reduce the cost per capita AND increase health outcomes? Kind of the end goal for a sustainable system...does the new lab fit this? Sure does.

  14. #314

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    Thanks SM. I was hoping you would chime in!

  15. #315

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    Just for transparency purposes, it should be noted that Scott Mckeen is also a member of the dba

  16. #316

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    He's on there ex-officio, because he's the (terrible) Councillor for the ward that Downtown is in.

    Still makes him a bit redundant to mention at best, even to name-drop.
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    That's incorrect. Councillors are ex-officio and are not Members as per the MGA/bylaw.
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    It is heartening to see that most people are taking IanO's "single-issue fiscal conservatism" (great summation, btw) with an enormous grain of salt here. People are free to have opinions, but I sure find it distasteful when the DBA accepts public spending with willing grins (LRT, Stanley Milner, Jasper Ave reno, arena deal, new RAM, GoA office leasing, etc, etc) yet says we have to put the brakes on a healthcare infrastructure investment simply because it's not within the DT borders. This is all so laughably transparent.
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    Our mandate is to improve and make the Downtown more desirable for investment, jobs, retail, festivals, to live/work/play. Defending a member and their livelihoods and economic impact on our Downtown is what we do.
    www.decl.org

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  21. #321

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Our mandate is to improve and make the Downtown more desirable for investment, jobs, retail, festivals, to live/work/play. Defending a member and their livelihoods and economic impact on our Downtown is what we do.
    You've explained your mandate multiple times, we all get it & aren't disputing you're doing your job when you put the needs of the special interest group who pays you ahead of the needs of all Albertans.

    We're just saying you're not doing your job very well & not making a compelling case with your transparent, 1-dimensional, manufactured rhetoric.
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  22. #322
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    You are entitled to your opinion, clearly you have some.
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  23. #323
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    The new lab is going to be an exceptional facility and will fill the gaps currently existing in the system.

    I am happy that the NDP has, from the get-go, stated that their mandate is to make live better for regular Albertans and not cater to the wishes of special interest groups. It's a refreshing change in Alberta politics given the cronyism and patronage that pre-existed and at least some still wished existed, it seems
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  24. #324

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    You are entitled to your opinion, clearly you have some.
    It seems like I'm not the only one who shares the opinion that you're talking outta your sphincter & not exactly being a decent spokesperson on this issue, what with admonishments from me, Matt, Ken, Richard, kkozoriz, illin....
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  25. #325
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    Certainly it is a divisive topic/investment/choice. I regularly hear about this decision and many believe it is not the right time for it. A new lab, sure, but not now.
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  26. #326

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    if not now, when? What research have you done? Who have you heard from? It seems like your about the only one on C2E saying this... so I find what you say very hard to believe.

  27. #327
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    Because C2E is anything near representative anymore of public opinion or stakeholder groups or circles within the business community. At one time I might have agreed, sadly it has digressed/degenerated into, well, this.
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  28. #328

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Certainly it is a divisive topic/investment/choice.
    Only to those that put their own selfish agendas over the public good. Given that this lab will reduce per-capita costs and increase health outcomes it takes a certain sort of selfish, greed-oriented sociopath to be against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    I regularly hear about this decision and many believe it is not the right time for it.
    Who? The people who pay you to lobby on their behalf? The landlords that won't be able to fill their space due to the "revitalization" of Downtown primarily being an exercise in voodoo economics?

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    A new lab, sure, but not now.
    Yeah, build it later when it'll cost more & we can get some more private corporations & their profiteering inserted into our public health issues like they are now. I mean, the government isn't even bothering to contribute to local businesses by buying land for the lab, rather they're selfishly going to use land they already own! Won't someone think of the speculators who won't be able to eek out a return!?
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  29. #329

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    Because the DBA and DECL is anything near representative anymore of public opinion or stakeholder groups or circles within the business community.

    And - this decision is a decision that affects Patient care. It's not a business decision. My god you have your head so far in the downtown sand, that you think you have some sort of moral superiority over anyone else here. Your nasty PMs conclude that as well.

    This is about providing Edmonton and Albertans with better health care. Can't you understand that? What is wrong with you? This has nothing to do with 'jealously' or 'hiding behind a computer'. I frankly don't care if you have a mandate, or you feel like I'm bullying you. You yourself choose to be a public persona by accepting the positions you have. If you can't stand the heat, time to get out of the kitchen. Your threatening PMs to me will not stop me from continuing to provide my opinions here, and other places I have influence. if anything, your nasty PMs that I've asked you to stop are letting me know that I'm on the right course. You seem to think you are over and above the rules here. Stop hiding behind your profession when it's personal, and taking it personally when its professional.

    Maybe if you need your own private space where differing opinions to yours are forbidden, you can go hide out back to SSP, and let the adults here discuss things without bias.


    Last edited by Medwards; 20-03-2018 at 12:45 PM.

  30. #330
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    If you do not believe that there is an economic or business case/decision included in this to be balanced off with healthcare delivery, we are in for a very difficult fiscal future.

    As for the rest of it, you and your personal vandetta/attacks are incredibly obvious. I truly do not comprehend this internet bullying with you and your friend here.

    I will leave it at that, but please, give it a rest.
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  31. #331

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Certainly it is a divisive topic/investment/choice. I regularly hear about this decision and many believe it is not the right time for it. A new lab, sure, but not now.
    “Now is not the right time”

    Unfortunately that is a common sentiment / barrier / excuse...


    Sooo. If someone can say with certainty that now is not the right time then they must certainly be able to say when IS the right time.

    So. What makes for the right time?

    Airy fairy talk about deficits and debts don’t cut it because no one ever talks about what the debt level should be and who and what exactly gets cut, or benefited, to achieve the desired debt level and desired carrying cost.

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    Last edited by KC; 20-03-2018 at 12:58 PM.

  32. #332

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    The guy trying to intimidate the provincial government with thinly veiled threats calls other people a bully?

    Yeah, you might wanna drop the issue now Ian as you're just digging yourself a deeper hole.
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  33. #333

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    If you don't believe the research and planning that has gone into this, that is way far and above what ever level you think your at, you're fooling only yourself.

    I have no personal vandetta against you. You're a great guy, who means well.
    I do however, have arguments and differing opinions to many of your publicly made opinions, and since this place isn't an echo chamber, you're going to read my opinions, unless you choose to ignore them.

    I find that your sudden desire for financial prudence is quite bizarre. Healthcare and schools should be a governments number one priority, and you've had no problems or arguments against government spending when its been in the downtown core. LRT, RAM, Arena, etc etc etc. But a superlab that brings efficiency and cost savings to all Albertans being built outside of downtown, and suddenly, your position is "full stop, nows not the time"... Even though now is the best time for government infrastructure spending while labour and material costs are at long term lows due to the drop in the economy. Not only that, but building this now will provide thousands of Albertans with well paying jobs that will only recycle itself back into the economy, and back into the government through taxes... Now is exactly the time.

    It's funny that you've tried to label me as taking this personally, but you're the one firing nasty PMs at me, name calling and attempted bullying.
    Last edited by Medwards; 20-03-2018 at 12:54 PM.

  34. #334

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Because C2E is anything near representative anymore of public opinion or stakeholder groups or circles within the business community. At one time I might have agreed, sadly it has digressed/degenerated into, well, this.
    That's totally not objective. The people here probably represents Edmonton as a whole, better than those that agree with you.

    There's no conspiracy against you, it's just that on this TOPIC you are (in mine and other people's opinion) wrong. Accept it.


    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    If you do not believe that there is an economic or business case/decision included in this to be balanced off with healthcare delivery, we are in for a very difficult fiscal future.
    There are better ways to balance the book than to cut health care/social programs. And I personally don't believe there is a business case for health care, unless we're going to privatize everything and become like the states.

  35. #335

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    I wonder how much IanO and the DBA will be lobbying against the NDP and supporting the UCP in the next election? Not overtly of course. But with a wink and a nod.

    Anyone want to wager that DBA is/has contemplated legal action to keep DynaLab from moving? After all, it's much more important to keep a lab downtown in a building ill equipped for such a function than to let them move to a new, state of the art facility that will benefit Edmonton and all of northern Alberta? After all, the only part that counts for anything is downtown.

    I miss going to DeDutch but my boycott of everything withing the DBA boundaries will continue. It's time for the DBA members to make their feelings known on this matter.

  36. #336

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    I miss going to DeDutch but my boycott of everything withing the DBA boundaries will continue. It's time for the DBA members to make their feelings known on this matter.
    Kudos to you for making an effort to get your point across. I've long written off Downtown so I can't really lord a boycott over them. The only Downtown establishment I frequent is Save On Foods, for the products not carried at Superstore.
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  37. #337
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    The DBA is politically neutral as an organization and no, no legal action as that is rarely something a BIA could or would do.
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  38. #338

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    “Losing an employer of that size is not something we’d be very pleased about,” he says. “But a lot can happen between now and then, including a new government and new priorities.”
    You sure sound apolitical there! Certainly seems like you're advocating for a change in government so we can maintain the status quo to the betterment of those that directly fund your operations....

    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...the-microscope
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  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    If you do not believe that there is an economic or business case/decision included in this to be balanced off with healthcare delivery, we are in for a very difficult fiscal future.

    As for the rest of it, you and your personal vandetta/attacks are incredibly obvious. I truly do not comprehend this internet bullying with you and your friend here.

    I will leave it at that, but please, give it a rest.
    IanO, your advising someone else here to "give it a rest" is a classic case of tone deafness...

    no one is condoning personal vendettas/attacks whether they are incredibly obvious or not but you continue to be incredibly entrenched in an untenable and, in my opinion, incredibly wrong position.

    most of the disagreeing with your position here has everything to do with your position here and nothing to do with you personally. you need to take a step back and not take it personally and re-examine the position you seem to be so dedicated to putting forth.

    if there is "an economic or business case/decision included in this to be balanced off with healthcare delivery" that needs to be province wide and not a parochial economic or business case. the impact on the service and the cost of healthcare delivery in this decision affects red deer and high level and fort mcmurray, never mind greater edmonton or edmonton proper or downtown edmonton.

    your continued insistence that provincial healthcare delivery and the cost of that delivery needs to be balanced against the business case for a particular premises when the original occupancy model for selecting it in the first place and its capacity to meet current needs are no longer valid boggles the mind.

    and if that's actually the position of the board at dba and/or the position of most of your not optional and closed membership, that would boggle the mind no less.

    most of the disagreeing with you has everything to do with the position you're working so hard to defend and nothing to do with you personally. you need to take it less personally and stop defending it at all costs - including your credibility - and perhaps consider the possibility that you're wrong and how you're responding to this whole thing is also wrong and that if that's the position of the board and/or your members, perhaps it's your board and your members that need more information.
    Last edited by kcantor; 20-03-2018 at 02:55 PM.
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  40. #340

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    Ken, thank you for you being you!
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  41. #341

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    "Politically neutral", that's a good one. You were the one that brought up "a change of government" as a solution to the lab moving.




    "Rarely would do" doesn't really rule out legal action now, does it?

    After all, how dare someone ever contemplate leaving downtown? Forget about the benefit to the city, the region and the province. Downtown is the ONLY part that matters.

    Feh. There's lots to see and do that doesn't require me to set foot downtown. As long as the DBA advocates against improving health care by objecting to the new lab simply on the basis that it will cause the podium of a never built tower to actually look for more appropriate tenants, I won't be supporting and DBA member.

  42. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    I wonder how much IanO and the DBA will be lobbying against the NDP and supporting the UCP in the next election? Not overtly of course. But with a wink and a nod.
    Incredibly ironic, considering that the people who actually live downtown (or close to downtown) tend not to be UCP-supporting types. Edmonton-Centre hasn't voted for a conservative since the Lougheed days of 1982! Hell, in the last provincial election, the combined Liberal/NDP vote was 80%! The DBA might represent some well-heeled downtown business interests (such as, maybe, some of these guys), but it doesn't necessarily represent its residents.
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  43. #343

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    They don't support the residents. They support the businesses. The health and well being of the downtown residents doesn't enter into it. Unless those residents are spending money downtown, exclusively would be best, then they aren't on the DBA radar.

    Which is why IanO was advocating for a change of government earlier. He's hoping that the UCP will kill the new lab and force the old one to stay downtown.

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    I was never advocating for a change of Government, I said there will be a new Government.

    There are pros and cons to all governing parties, we all know this.

    It should be noted that we had the Minister of Infrastructure in to speak to us about the decision and provide additional background/information. We also had the Minister of Finance in to discuss spending, priorities etc. Unfortunately we were unable to get the Minister of Health in as of this date. That all said, we provided our position and left it at that. So too should you.
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  45. #345

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    If you were apolitical you wouldn't have said anything about the government, whatsoever. You chose your words very poorly & have been called to task again & again for it as you're incapable of acknowledging your own mistakes.

    Imagine how much better C2E could be if the phrase "I'm sorry" was ever in your lexicon.
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  46. #346

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    I was never advocating for a change of Government, I said there will be a new Government.

    There are pros and cons to all governing parties, we all know this.

    It should be noted that we had the Minister of Infrastructure in to speak to us about the decision and provide additional background/information. We also had the Minister of Finance in to discuss spending, priorities etc. Unfortunately we were unable to get the Minister of Health in as of this date. That all said, we provided our position and left it at that. So too should you.
    We should just leave it at that because the DBA had a couple of meetings and yet they continue to advocate against the new lab, even calling for cutting off funding as you did earlier? Right, the DBA has the right to make their opinion known and to work towards their goals but everyone else should just shut up?

    And as far as "a new government" goes, are you saying that every time the Conservatives won between 1971 and 2015, it was a whole new, not at all related to what came before government? A new government is when a different party take over. Otherwise it's a new mandate for the same government.

    But you knew that, didn't you?

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    IanO and his team at the DBA have made their position clear, and are willing to stand by it.

    Let's move this thread back to discussing the new campus itself, if and when it materializes.
    Ow

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    'And as far as "a new government" goes, are you saying that every time the Conservatives won between 1971 and 2015, it was a whole new, not at all related to what came before government? A new government is when a different party take over. Otherwise it's a new mandate for the same government.'

    Was the Lougheed the same as Klein as Redford? Me thinks not.
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    ^

    RichardS’s advice to the thread applies to you too IanO... this “having to be right at all costs” and having to have the last word is what i meant by tone deaf.
    Last edited by kcantor; 21-03-2018 at 07:20 AM.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  50. #350

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    In the spirit of moving on, does anyone have any more information as to when construction would actually start? How far along is the design? Where exactly at south campus would this be going?

  51. #351

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    'And as far as "a new government" goes, are you saying that every time the Conservatives won between 1971 and 2015, it was a whole new, not at all related to what came before government? A new government is when a different party take over. Otherwise it's a new mandate for the same government.'

    Was the Lougheed the same as Klein as Redford? Me thinks not.
    And how many times was Lougheed reelected? Or Klein? That's a change of premier, not "a New government"

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    ^^prelim design was started last year (Dialog). My guess is 2yrs design, 3yrs construction.
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    The new location makes way more sense. Having a large lab right downtown makes about as much sense as having an airport right downtown.

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    Without opening up everything again, MANY cities have significant medical/tech/lab/bio in the central parts of their city.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    (...) as much sense as having an airport right downtown.

    *rocks back and forth in his chair muttering* Please not another thread derail. Please not another thread derail. Please not Blatchford...

    I am looking forward to seeing this lab progress. I know as an unfortunate all to frequent user of services like this, more efficiency would be welcomed.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    (...)having to have the last word is what i meant by tone deaf.
    juxtapose

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Without opening up everything again, MANY cities have significant medical/tech/lab/bio in the central parts of their city.
    *rocks more...openly weeps....opens bottle of whiskey at 9 am*
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  57. #357

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    Speaking for more efficiency, I think lost in the debate above is it's not just dynalife, but three different groups which compromises of "eight smaller sites (labs) operating in the Edmonton region, including DynaLife’s central downtown lab.

    This is a big step forward to removing some of the privatization seen done by previous orders of government.

    If we want to talk about budgets and over spending, we also need to consider that this move was done in light of "Such outsourcing started more than 20 years ago, but reached a zenith in 2014 when AHS awarded a truly massive $3-billion, 15-year contract to an Australian company, Sonic, to build and operate a huge new Edmonton lab." " what will all this cost? Hoffman won’t release an estimate, saying she doesn’t want to risk driving up construction bids. (My ballpark guess? Likely in the range of $400 million.) "

    As far as location goes "The site seems eminently logical: free land, close to the U of A Hospital, well-served by public transit, just off the Whitemud Freeway. "

    Sounds like some are stuck in a certain mentality, at least AIMCO is looking forward.

    "
    Ian O’Donnell, of the Downtown Business Association, still hopes to convince the province to change its mind.“Losing an employer of that size is not something we’d be very pleased about,” he says. “But a lot can happen between now and then, including a new government and new priorities.”
    AIMCo, the Alberta Investment Management Corp., which currently owns the 102 Avenue building, doesn’t sound worried, though. By 2022, after all, the site might be ripe for redevelopment. That could mean a major new retail tenant in the space. But it could even mean a new office or condo tower built atop the current building podium.
    “Should that property become vacant, AIMCo will look to see what the market needs,” says AIMCo’s Denes Nemeth. “We’ll assess the opportunities.” "

    selective quotes taken from:
    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/commercial-real-estate/paula-simons-time-to-put-lab-decision-under-the-microscope

    ---

    To me, its very foolish to think that had the NDP not stopped the PCs plan, we would be spending a ton more on the old plan. Where was the call out to stop that? Only when a lab was decided to go to a non-downtown location did a certain ruckus start up.
    Last edited by Medwards; 21-03-2018 at 09:01 AM.

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    Let's not talk about a certain ruckus...let's talk about the comment of spending more on the old plan.


    ...or better yet...is this new area going to provide the efficiencies stated?
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Without opening up everything again, MANY cities have significant medical/tech/lab/bio in the central parts of their city.
    emphasis added...

    you just can’t help yourself can you.

    never mind MANY, can you identify ANY comparable major level 5 biohazard labs in the central part of a city that aren’t associated with or part of a major hospital or university campus but are instead a stand alone part of a mixed use retail/office/hotel/residential development?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  60. #360

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Without opening up everything again, MANY cities have significant medical/tech/lab/bio in the central parts of their city.
    As does Edmonton. They're called the Royal Alexandra Hospital and Glenrose Rehabilitation Hospital. But they're located just four blocks too far north for your liking.

  61. #361

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    In many cities, South Campus would be considered part of the central city, especially when you consider that this lab is meant to serve most of Central and Northern Alberta

    Even in the Metro Edmonton Region planning, it considers South Campus as part of the core area.

  62. #362

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    Would there be enough room in the podium and/or lower floors of the Baccarat replacement tower? Or the first few levels of tower podium for the Edmonton Motors sight, now that that's up for grabs?

  63. #363
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    I give up...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  64. #364

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    Why would the province make such a deal when a podium is much smaller than the proposed lab footprint and the fact that there's land already owned by the province at South Campus. Why pay for a lease when you can instead use that money for equipment and personnel?

    And since the lab wouldn't have much street presence (just look at the current situation at Manulife II), why would you want it downtown? Or are you suggesting putting retail underneath the lab? That would just mean you'd end up with a much taller podium.

  65. #365

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Would there be enough room in the podium and/or lower floors of the Baccarat replacement tower? Or the first few levels of tower podium for the Edmonton Motors sight, now that that's up for grabs?
    I think Ken has explained it that a Level 5 lab isn't really a good tenant in any building besides a purposely build lab on it owns. Note that the existing dynalife lab is not a level 5 lab...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Without opening up everything again, MANY cities have significant medical/tech/lab/bio in the central parts of their city.
    emphasis added...

    you just can’t help yourself can you.

    never mind MANY, can you identify ANY comparable major level 5 biohazard labs in the central part of a city that aren’t associated with or part of a major hospital or university campus but are instead a stand alone part of a mixed use retail/office/hotel/residential development?
    Effluents can be dealt with, but level 5 is slightly different than what this will be Ken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Would there be enough room in the podium and/or lower floors of the Baccarat replacement tower? Or the first few levels of tower podium for the Edmonton Motors sight, now that that's up for grabs?
    would there be enough room? that's not really the question...

    the question is whether you would buy or rent a condo on top of a level 5 biohazard facility and whether the fire department would be happy dealing with the potential issues that might arise from having you living on top of a level 5 biohazard facility if something were to happen...

    it's less a question of "can or cannot" than it is "should or should not".
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  68. #368

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    In the spirit of moving on, does anyone have any more information as to when construction would actually start? How far along is the design? Where exactly at south campus would this be going?
    A presentation was made about the lab on March 15 at the GEHAC. I expect that more information about status will be public once those meeting minutes are finalized.

    Construction planned to start in 2019 from the December news release - sounds to still be on track.

  69. #369

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Would there be enough room in the podium and/or lower floors of the Baccarat replacement tower? Or the first few levels of tower podium for the Edmonton Motors sight, now that that's up for grabs?
    would there be enough room? that's not really the question...

    the question is whether you would buy or rent a condo on top of a level 5 biohazard facility and whether the fire department would be happy dealing with the potential issues that might arise from having you living on top of a level 5 biohazard facility if something were to happen...

    it's less a question of "can or cannot" than it is "should or should not".
    Understood. In that case, there's no place in big D Downtown to house the new facility. South Campus makes sense. If you wanted it closer to little d downtown, you could take out some dirt lots north or east of big D Downtown, or maybe even at Northland's, but even that would not likely be good enough for the DBA. Maybe the government could move some departments into the Dynalife space from the OS Longman Building at South Campus to partially mollify the DBA, but I don't know it would gain them any political capital if they did so.

  70. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Without opening up everything again, MANY cities have significant medical/tech/lab/bio in the central parts of their city.
    emphasis added...

    you just can’t help yourself can you.

    never mind MANY, can you identify ANY comparable major level 5 biohazard labs in the central part of a city that aren’t associated with or part of a major hospital or university campus but are instead a stand alone part of a mixed use retail/office/hotel/residential development?
    Effluents can be dealt with, but level 5 is slightly different than what this will be Ken.
    you're ignoring the fact that this isn't "just" a medical testing facility. this lab will include an amalgamation with the province's northern public health laboratory - the provincial laboratory centre to support disease prevention, control, surveillance and epidemiologic disease through integrated data management.

    as such, this facility will provide specialized reference laboratory testing in clinical and public health microbiology and environmental toxicology. it's intended to provide expertise in the identification of new or emerging infectious agents and the development of appropriate tests with the following core functions:

    · acting as the provincial laboratory centre to support disease prevention, control, surveillance and epidemiology through integrated data management
    · providing specialize reference laboratory testing in clinical and public health microbiology and environmental toxicology
    · providing expertise in the identification of new or emerging infectious agents and the development of appropriate tests
    · providing ongoing data and information to the hief medical officer of health and alberta health services medical officer of health in order to monitor health and disease of the population
    · providing the laboratory expertise in emergency preparedness and response
    · responding to requests from the chief medical officer of health and alberta health services medical office of health in epidemic or other emergencies
    · pursuing education, research and development activities in support of its other responsibilities for securing optimum public health
    · providing input as requested to assist the development of public policy to support population health
    · promoting laboratory improvement through input into legislation regulation and accreditation processes
    · providing acute care, diagnostic clinical microbiology for the university of alberta hospital

    service areas are to include:
    · microbiology to include bacteriology, parasitology, mycology
    · level iii laboratory centralized testing for provincial lab diagnosis of tuberculosis
    · bacterial typing unit
    · environmental microbiology
    · molecular diagnostics
    · virology/serology

    it’s not unreasonableto expect this new combined lab to include western canada’s only level iv lab outside of winnipeg and it’s not unreasonable to expect it will also be built with or with the capability of adding a level 5 lab.

    as for incurring or postponing the estimated 400 million dollar capital cost, the cost of providing lab services alone in alberta health care’s budget is 530 million dollars per year, split approximately 50/50 between north and south. if there’s even a 5% efficiency in the provision of those services in the new lab, it will pay for itself pretty quickly.

    over to you to post ANY of those MANY examples you referenced but you might be better off to start taking RichardS's advice instead.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  71. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Would there be enough room in the podium and/or lower floors of the Baccarat replacement tower? Or the first few levels of tower podium for the Edmonton Motors sight, now that that's up for grabs?
    would there be enough room? that's not really the question...

    the question is whether you would buy or rent a condo on top of a level 5 biohazard facility and whether the fire department would be happy dealing with the potential issues that might arise from having you living on top of a level 5 biohazard facility if something were to happen...

    it's less a question of "can or cannot" than it is "should or should not".
    Understood. In that case, there's no place in big D Downtown to house the new facility. South Campus makes sense. If you wanted it closer to little d downtown, you could take out some dirt lots north or east of big D Downtown, or maybe even at Northland's, but even that would not likely be good enough for the DBA. Maybe the government could move some departments into the Dynalife space from the OS Longman Building at South Campus to partially mollify the DBA, but I don't know it would gain them any political capital if they did so.
    The provincial government doesn't care what the DBA thinks and nor should they. That's a fact.

    I can't believe how much time and energy people have wasted arguing with a guy who's clearly out of his league and out of touch with anything beyond his tiny little bubble and who's petulance seems to know no bounds

    Good comedy reading though.
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    I would be telling the government good idea, move Dynalife out to south campus. They have more land than you can shake a stick at out there. Build it extra big for future reference. Be nice to them so they don't build a suburban office park out there and relocate offices. Then talk them into getting someone to build a 70 storey tower on the present site, move the Terrace and Annex offices plus more into it. Knock down those two ugly buildings to enhance the parkland at the ledge. Lots of construction jobs, new Dynalife campus, new tower on the skyline, nicer park at the ledge. Win, win, win, win. IanO, I think you could make it happen by talking to the right people.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 21-03-2018 at 05:05 PM.

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    When the condo goes on the market, I’ll make sure to put in the ad: “no longer in close proximity to a level five biohazard.”

  74. #374

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Why would the province make such a deal when a podium is much smaller than the proposed lab footprint and the fact that there's land already owned by the province at South Campus. Why pay for a lease when you can instead use that money for equipment and personnel?
    Remember you're primarily arguing with someone whose opinion is bought & paid for with the profits from said lease.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  75. #375

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Why would the province make such a deal when a podium is much smaller than the proposed lab footprint and the fact that there's land already owned by the province at South Campus. Why pay for a lease when you can instead use that money for equipment and personnel?
    Remember you're primarily arguing with someone whose opinion is bought & paid for with the profits from said lease.
    Nothing wrong with that. That’s somewhat how representative democracy is supposed to work. As long as the respresntation / agenda is known and not hidden such as behind an an anonymous ‘handle’ I don’t see a problem.

    Moreover from the start this site was expected to bring in promoters and defenders of different perspectives wasn’t it?

  76. #376

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Nothing wrong with that. That’s somewhat how representative democracy is supposed to work. As long as the respresntation / agenda is known and not hidden such as behind an an anonymous ‘handle’ I don’t see a problem.
    Wasn't making a qualitative assessment, just merely pointing out that some people in the discussion have motives & mandates beyond what's being stated & debated that aren't freely or willingly disclosed until pressed.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  77. #377

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Nothing wrong with that. That’s somewhat how representative democracy is supposed to work. As long as the respresntation / agenda is known and not hidden such as behind an an anonymous ‘handle’ I don’t see a problem.
    Wasn't making a qualitative assessment, just merely pointing out that some people in the discussion have motives & mandates beyond what's being stated & debated that aren't freely or willingly disclosed until pressed.
    Almost everyone ‘talks their book’ - especially when they are known. Moreover they are often held to what they’ve said without allowance or acceptance of nuance or an evolution in opinion. Then on the other end there’s anonymity which allows people to speak their minds, though many may still likely talk their book. (Can’t always tell.)

    I just think that using one’s own name on the Internet where nothing is erased, is crazy risky WHEN you’re in a community of people actively keeping their own identies and motivations and vested interests secret.
    Last edited by KC; 22-03-2018 at 09:49 AM.

  78. #378

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    Things get less clear when people are reading from their book, their employer's book, their community league's book & others all interchangeably & overlapping, using the same dismissive, condescending, know-better-than-you tone.

    Visibility is a double edged sword & not everyone has the communications savvy of Ken Cantor to navigate the nuances of being a relatively public person with private, professional, public & personal viewpoints.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    .....when in actuality it is noodle that knows all?

  80. #380

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    .....when in actuality it is noodle that knows all?
    I was thinking more of the pot, kettle, one calling the other black...you know the saying...

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    The government plans to spend $590 million over the next five years on Edmonton’s new lab facility, which is significantly more than AHS’s original estimate of $325 million.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...balanced-books
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    That's almost as much as an arena and pedway!

  83. #383

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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    That's almost as much as an arena and pedway!
    ... and might benefit more people. I am guessing a lot more people use AHS than have seasons tickets to the Oilers.

    An interesting approach by some, lets spend more on the nice to have things and cut back on health care.

  84. #384

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    Nice but ultimately "unnecessary" things, at the cost of our basic necessity (health and wellness of us all).

  85. #385

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The government plans to spend $590 million over the next five years on Edmonton’s new lab facility, which is significantly more than AHS’s original estimate of $325 million.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...balanced-books
    and still significantly less than what the previous order of government wouldve given sonic. Far less than what we will spend on one leg of LRT to millwoods, and a fraction of the proposed cost of WLRT. Around the same cost as an arena, or a museum. The cost of this, pushed over the decades of service is but a very small fraction of thethe annual budget of AHS that surpasses $22,000,000,000.00 /yr

    still planned to save millions of dollars annually
    Last edited by Medwards; 22-03-2018 at 06:41 PM.

  86. #386

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Why would the province make such a deal when a podium is much smaller than the proposed lab footprint and the fact that there's land already owned by the province at South Campus. Why pay for a lease when you can instead use that money for equipment and personnel?
    Remember you're primarily arguing with someone whose opinion is bought & paid for with the profits from said lease.
    Nothing wrong with that. That’s somewhat how representative democracy is supposed to work. As long as the respresntation / agenda is known and not hidden such as behind an an anonymous ‘handle’ I don’t see a problem.

    Moreover from the start this site was expected to bring in promoters and defenders of different perspectives wasn’t it?
    Except in a representative democracy, it's the citizens that have the rights not the businesses. And the DBA is not made up of residents of downtown but representatives of the businesses located downtown. Or a businesses people too? And if so, should they get a vote in the elections?

    Sure, let them put out press releases and put up some billboards or send out flyers. But when they lobby the government for something that will affect the health of the citizens then they've stepped over a line.

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    I am sick and tired of listening to Ian representing the Downtown Business Association view that the Lab should be downtown. I have property downtown and have a vested interest downtown BUT agree with the Province the Lab is best located at South Campus. WHO in the Executive of DBA can put a muzzle on their mouthpiece before the DBA has ZERO credibility!?!
    Last edited by EdmTrekker; 28-03-2018 at 11:10 PM.

  88. #388

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    I am sick and tired of listening to Ian representing the Downtown Business Association view that the Lab should be downtown. I have property downtown and have a vested interest downtown BUT agree with the Province the Lab is best located at South Campus. WHO in the Executive of DBA can put a muzzle on their mouthpiece before the DBA has ZERO credibility!?!
    Too late!

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