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Thread: Provincial Super Lab - South Campus

  1. #701

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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Unfortunately the demand for MRI's, healthcare are all going to increase over the next few years, which means if we think it's bad/ broken now, it's going to get worse. Lab or no lab, MRI's or no MRI's, something different needs to be tried for the future.
    Or we just pay for it and spend less on something else.

    It’s not like we haven’t had 60 or 70 years to prepare for the demographic impacts of an aging baby boom population.

    And only half a century or so to recognize and then prepare for the fact that advances in medical treatment were going to cost more. We could go back to the pre-MRI days of course.

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    ^,

    Or, why didn't the current boomer generation pay even more taxes for their healthcare and have it socked away for them later in life. A moot point now since most will be retiring.... or, if you are working why not pay more tax the older you get as you will require more healthcare as you age, plus the dollars you pay later in life will be less deflated than the dollars you paid when you were younger and did not need healthcare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I love these theories that we can have one but not the other. We can have both a new hospital and a new lab. They are both needed. Red deer needs a hospital too. But hey, lets cut the taxes for the rich, cut services and funding for the rest of us. That's going to get a lot of things built.

    FFS
    There are also theories out there that show you can only tax people so much before you do damage and revenues decrease. Let's not de-rail this thread with these, plus, there are some thing which we just will never agree on.
    Given that Alberta's GDP has stayed constant or gone up a bit during the last 4 years, one might argue that we're still not in the territory of taxes too high/doing damage loss in revenue. With a new pipeline and taxes the same, the GDP should increase?

  4. #704

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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    ^,

    Or, why didn't the current boomer generation pay even more taxes for their healthcare and have it socked away for them later in life. A moot point now since most will be retiring.... or, if you are working why not pay more tax the older you get as you will require more healthcare as you age, plus the dollars you pay later in life will be less deflated than the dollars you paid when you were younger and did not need healthcare.
    Yup. Like global warming and a hundred other issues coming down the pipeline. Let’s just not think about it.

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    ^
    heheh... yes, imagine how much better off we/ you/I/ all would be if everybody worried about the long term and not just the next 4 year election cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Another interesting point......does everyone know that the Remand center has NOT 1, but 2 MRI's!!!! God forbid we have criminal scumbag's wait too long........
    That's [email protected]? Why do they have two, and a hospital has one?
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  7. #707

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Another interesting point......does everyone know that the Remand center has NOT 1, but 2 MRI's!!!! God forbid we have criminal scumbag's wait too long........
    That's [email protected]? Why do they have two, and a hospital has one?
    The “Get tough on crime” budget left some slack in it, while the “Eliminate government waste in health care” budget was a bit tighter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I love these theories that we can have one but not the other. We can have both a new hospital and a new lab. They are both needed. Red deer needs a hospital too. But hey, lets cut the taxes for the rich, cut services and funding for the rest of us. That's going to get a lot of things built.

    FFS
    There are also theories out there that show you can only tax people so much before you do damage and revenues decrease. Let's not de-rail this thread with these, plus, there are some thing which we just will never agree on.
    Given that Alberta's GDP has stayed constant or gone up a bit during the last 4 years, one might argue that we're still not in the territory of taxes too high/doing damage loss in revenue. With a new pipeline and taxes the same, the GDP should increase?
    Also considering Alberta is the least taxed province, and none of the other Provinces seem to be descending into chaos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Another interesting point......does everyone know that the Remand center has NOT 1, but 2 MRI's!!!! God forbid we have criminal scumbag's wait too long........
    That's [email protected]? Why do they have two, and a hospital has one?
    The “Get tough on crime” budget left some slack in it, while the “Eliminate government waste in health care” budget was a bit tighter?

    It's not fair. I cannot imagine a reason for this.
    I imagine these machines have been there for some time, and perhaps, other remand centres across Canada have more than hospitals
    Last edited by H.L.; 26-04-2019 at 10:25 AM.
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  10. #710

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    MRIs are also done at MCI and I believe a few other private clinics. My MRI was scheduled through a private provider not at any of the hospitals. If I wanted to pay extra I could get it done right away. There is a great infrastructure deficit. Its not going away. our population is double since the Klien years. Taxes are some of the lowest in the country. We do not pay health premiums like we used to. The Lab and the hospitals are needed. Current Lab services are getting behind in the technologies. Operational standards have gotten to the point that most current labs are close to being substandard. (look at the most resent codes). The new lab would have centralised most major services but would still allow the common services at the outlying lab facilities. The new lab would also allow for specialised services not readily available or are in research facilities. Moving the Northern Hub Lab out of the U of A would also free up the hospitals south wing for more clinical and patient services. Red Deer needs a hospital, but for some reason GP got one first, (Politics). Based on how Fd up the GP hospital has gotten Red Deer may have an operating new hospital before GP. As for the central drug hub and comments made above, I will stop by the site and make sure this is the actual site.

    Based on this story the new lab should have started last year. However if they are going Design bid build I can see it starting this year. And part of the story that gets missed is the upgrades to the satellite hubs and addition to the Calgary Centre.

    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...ad-in-edmonton
    Last edited by BalancedOP; 26-04-2019 at 10:34 AM.

  11. #711

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    Where is the proof of 1 let alone 2 MRI's in the Remand?

    Proof that a nurse said that to you is not proof of a letter - I guarantee if the government had actually sent letters to MCH staff about hours cut that would have hit the news, as it's direct violation of union agreements lay-off/recall language as well as notice periods that must come from the employer not the government.

    Also, just to be clear on the lab - it's AI pausing pending the gov, not the gov that is pausing the construction pending a more detailed review.

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    Quote Originally Posted by illin View Post
    Where is the proof of 1 let alone 2 MRI's in the Remand?

    Proof that a nurse said that to you is not proof of a letter - I guarantee if the government had actually sent letters to MCH staff about hours cut that would have hit the news, as it's direct violation of union agreements lay-off/recall language as well as notice periods that must come from the employer not the government.

    Also, just to be clear on the lab - it's AI pausing pending the gov, not the gov that is pausing the construction pending a more detailed review.
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    Proof is my neighbor cop who works more in there than anywhere else and had his eyeballs on it - proof enough for you?...I'm sorry - you want pictures....p8ss of with "your proof."

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    Show us the proof that you are not a sniveling little POS.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Show us the proof that you are not a sniveling little POS.....


    Last edited by kcantor; 26-04-2019 at 02:35 PM.
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  16. #716

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    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Proof is my neighbor cop who works more in there than anywhere else and had his eyeballs on it - proof enough for you?...I'm sorry - you want pictures....p8ss of with "your proof."
    According to this data base inventory dated April 24 2019, the Remand only has one radiography unit, (x-ray) machine, no MRI's

    http://www.cpsa.ca/FacilityListing/A...ing.pdf?ad14e2

    Looks like the information that they had 2 MRI is false. According to the same source, there are 31 facilities, both public and private in Alberta with MRI's
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  17. #717

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by illin View Post
    Where is the proof of 1 let alone 2 MRI's in the Remand?

    Proof that a nurse said that to you is not proof of a letter - I guarantee if the government had actually sent letters to MCH staff about hours cut that would have hit the news, as it's direct violation of union agreements lay-off/recall language as well as notice periods that must come from the employer not the government.

    Also, just to be clear on the lab - it's AI pausing pending the gov, not the gov that is pausing the construction pending a more detailed review.
    I took her at her word, bite me..
    So I asked a question and get this hostility? Amazing. Also amazing, how none of the numerous nurses or allied health professionals I know that work at MCH or other Covenant sites have mentioned anything of a letter being received from the government. Certainly none of my family that works for AHS received any such letter either.

    Now, AUPE has been pretty vocal - sending emails and holding town forums for their staff warning of the gov's desire to look at implementing two-tier healthcare...but that's not the same thing at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by illin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by illin View Post
    Where is the proof of 1 let alone 2 MRI's in the Remand?

    Proof that a nurse said that to you is not proof of a letter - I guarantee if the government had actually sent letters to MCH staff about hours cut that would have hit the news, as it's direct violation of union agreements lay-off/recall language as well as notice periods that must come from the employer not the government.

    Also, just to be clear on the lab - it's AI pausing pending the gov, not the gov that is pausing the construction pending a more detailed review.
    I took her at her word, bite me..
    So I asked a question and get this hostility? Amazing. Also amazing, how none of the numerous nurses or allied health professionals I know that work at MCH or other Covenant sites have mentioned anything of a letter being received from the government. Certainly none of my family that works for AHS received any such letter either.

    Now, AUPE has been pretty vocal - sending emails and holding town forums for their staff warning of the gov's desire to look at implementing two-tier healthcare...but that's not the same thing at all.
    I was having an MRI!!!! FFS how can I have proof, what the heck are you asking that question for..she was talking with another lady as well, who said well you can't blame Kenney( yet)..
    Her name is Winnie, MRI Dept at the mis..phone her, then you can have your proof. Where is your proof you have family/friends that are working
    for AHS..I'd like to see that please..thanks
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  19. #719

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    Alberta has the lowest tax rates in the country and no sales tax. Of course, if the PC's hadn't shifted royalties to General Revenue, we'd have a Heritage Fund that had been growing instead of actually losing value due to inflation. But you gotta fund those Ralph Bucks and tax cuts somehow. Well, that and ignoring ongoing infrastructure renewal for decades.

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    ^ Alberta should have NO income tax and a PST instead... with no god forsaken rebates.
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  22. #722

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Why?
    Because sales taxes disproportionately tax the poor, and poor people ignore that because rich people scream "TRICKLE DOWN!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whattagame View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Why?
    Because sales taxes disproportionately tax the poor, and poor people ignore that because rich people scream "TRICKLE DOWN!"
    how do you arrive at that conclusion? the poor (just as derogatory a term as the rich in my opinion) get their sales taxes rebated quarterly in cash whether they've paid it or not. the rich on an individual basis presumably purchase more things which makes it a progressive and not a regressive tax. it is paid by business regardless of their ability to defer or offset the payment of income taxes so it is quite egalitarian in that sense as well.

    three other things of note - a sales tax is by it's nature a consumption tax and should as a result encourage less which is a sound policy in areas other than taxation. it is also a tax that is visible and apparent to the taxpayer at the time it is paid while also being remitted and received by the taxing authority virtually immediately with negligible accounting costs.

    and for those concerned about the overwatch of big government, a third party is remitting your tax payment virtually anonymously on your behalf under their name, not yours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    ^,

    Or, why didn't the current boomer generation pay even more taxes for their healthcare and have it socked away for them later in life. A moot point now since most will be retiring.... or, if you are working why not pay more tax the older you get as you will require more healthcare as you age, plus the dollars you pay later in life will be less deflated than the dollars you paid when you were younger and did not need healthcare.
    The dollars you pay later in life are worth less than the dollars you pay earlier in life.

  25. #725

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Another interesting point......does everyone know that the Remand center has NOT 1, but 2 MRI's!!!! God forbid we have criminal scumbag's wait too long........
    That's [email protected]? Why do they have two, and a hospital has one?
    Because the currrent population of the Edmonton remand is double that of the beds of the royal Alex, and the current remand population is low compared to the max amount it can hold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Another interesting point......does everyone know that the Remand center has NOT 1, but 2 MRI's!!!! God forbid we have criminal scumbag's wait too long........
    That's [email protected]? Why do they have two, and a hospital has one?
    Because the currrent population of the Edmonton remand is double that of the beds of the royal Alex, and the current remand population is low compared to the max amount it can hold.
    It's not just about beds though, ambulances are coming into there none stop
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  27. #727

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Another interesting point......does everyone know that the Remand center has NOT 1, but 2 MRI's!!!! God forbid we have criminal scumbag's wait too long........
    That's [email protected]? Why do they have two, and a hospital has one?
    Because the currrent population of the Edmonton remand is double that of the beds of the royal Alex, and the current remand population is low compared to the max amount it can hold.
    I don’t get it. Seems like an odd comparison to make.

    Shouldn’t the Remand population first be compared the catchment area population that the Royal Alex serves, plus any specialist functions there that might also require an MRI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Another interesting point......does everyone know that the Remand center has NOT 1, but 2 MRI's!!!! God forbid we have criminal scumbag's wait too long........
    That's [email protected]? Why do they have two, and a hospital has one?
    Because the currrent population of the Edmonton remand is double that of the beds of the royal Alex, and the current remand population is low compared to the max amount it can hold.
    I don’t get it. Seems like an odd comparison to make.

    Shouldn’t the Remand population first be compared the catchment area population that the Royal Alex serves, plus any specialist functions there that might also require an MRI?
    probably somewhere between the two... you're likely closer but from there you also need to adjust for the risk factors of any particular segment of the population needing an mri. you then probably need to adjust the risk factor of transporting some segments of the population from where they are to an mri. in this case that risk factor isn't just the medical risk to the patient but the security and safety risk you might be exposing bystanders and lab techs and doctors and other patients to that are eliminated by having an mri in the remand centre. it may even lower the incident rate of soft tissue complaints needing an mri diagnosis to confirm because complaining of them won't get a day pass and the potential of escape... from that perspective the mri is there for the same reason they have a dining room and kitchens instead of transporting prisoners to your neighbourhood tim hortons even though that would be cheaper.
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  29. #729

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    I could probably support them having one for those reasons, but I'll still think the claim is BS until some credible evidence is provided. I'm not going to get worked up over "a friend told me."

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    "...Just down the hallway, the medical clinic has an X-ray machine and the ability to make casts. It looks like a regular medical clinic, except that the waiting rooms are all behind locked doors with concrete benches and a toilet...."

    https://globalnews.ca/news/410400/fa...remand-centre/

    Look some lay person, non medical professional doesn't know the difference between Xray and MRI, what a surprise. Eprt already pointed this out, but here it is again.

    If people seriously think there is two MRIs at the Remand I have something to sell you...

    Can we get off this ridiculous tangent and just acknowledge one poster just believes whatever they hear, 'trumps' it up and spews it out?

  31. #731

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Whattagame View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Why?
    Because sales taxes disproportionately tax the poor, and poor people ignore that because rich people scream "TRICKLE DOWN!"
    how do you arrive at that conclusion? the poor (just as derogatory a term as the rich in my opinion) get their sales taxes rebated quarterly in cash whether they've paid it or not. the rich on an individual basis presumably purchase more things which makes it a progressive and not a regressive tax. it is paid by business regardless of their ability to defer or offset the payment of income taxes so it is quite egalitarian in that sense as well.

    three other things of note - a sales tax is by it's nature a consumption tax and should as a result encourage less which is a sound policy in areas other than taxation. it is also a tax that is visible and apparent to the taxpayer at the time it is paid while also being remitted and received by the taxing authority virtually immediately with negligible accounting costs.

    and for those concerned about the overwatch of big government, a third party is remitting your tax payment virtually anonymously on your behalf under their name, not yours.
    Why would rich or poor be derogatory? I suppose that I could have referred to quintiles, but I figured that we didn't need to use euphemisms to ease people's guilt about their socioeconomic standing. Your reasoning for sales taxes being progressive seems to ignore the difference in discretionary income between lower and upper quintiles, and how that discretionary income is used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whattagame View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Whattagame View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Why?
    Because sales taxes disproportionately tax the poor, and poor people ignore that because rich people scream "TRICKLE DOWN!"
    how do you arrive at that conclusion? the poor (just as derogatory a term as the rich in my opinion) get their sales taxes rebated quarterly in cash whether they've paid it or not. the rich on an individual basis presumably purchase more things which makes it a progressive and not a regressive tax. it is paid by business regardless of their ability to defer or offset the payment of income taxes so it is quite egalitarian in that sense as well.

    three other things of note - a sales tax is by it's nature a consumption tax and should as a result encourage less which is a sound policy in areas other than taxation. it is also a tax that is visible and apparent to the taxpayer at the time it is paid while also being remitted and received by the taxing authority virtually immediately with negligible accounting costs.

    and for those concerned about the overwatch of big government, a third party is remitting your tax payment virtually anonymously on your behalf under their name, not yours.
    Why would rich or poor be derogatory? I suppose that I could have referred to quintiles, but I figured that we didn't need to use euphemisms to ease people's guilt about their socioeconomic standing. Your reasoning for sales taxes being progressive seems to ignore the difference in discretionary income between lower and upper quintiles, and how that discretionary income is used.
    you're ignoring the fact the lower quintile wouldn't pay any sales tax
    on either basic or discretionary spending. from their perspective that makes all sales tax paid by other quintiles 100% progressive.
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  33. #733

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Whattagame View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Whattagame View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Why?
    Because sales taxes disproportionately tax the poor, and poor people ignore that because rich people scream "TRICKLE DOWN!"
    how do you arrive at that conclusion? the poor (just as derogatory a term as the rich in my opinion) get their sales taxes rebated quarterly in cash whether they've paid it or not. the rich on an individual basis presumably purchase more things which makes it a progressive and not a regressive tax. it is paid by business regardless of their ability to defer or offset the payment of income taxes so it is quite egalitarian in that sense as well.

    three other things of note - a sales tax is by it's nature a consumption tax and should as a result encourage less which is a sound policy in areas other than taxation. it is also a tax that is visible and apparent to the taxpayer at the time it is paid while also being remitted and received by the taxing authority virtually immediately with negligible accounting costs.

    and for those concerned about the overwatch of big government, a third party is remitting your tax payment virtually anonymously on your behalf under their name, not yours.
    Why would rich or poor be derogatory? I suppose that I could have referred to quintiles, but I figured that we didn't need to use euphemisms to ease people's guilt about their socioeconomic standing. Your reasoning for sales taxes being progressive seems to ignore the difference in discretionary income between lower and upper quintiles, and how that discretionary income is used.
    you're ignoring the fact the lower quintile wouldn't pay any sales tax
    on either basic or discretionary spending. from their perspective that makes all sales tax paid by other quintiles 100% progressive.
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    Last edited by KC; 28-04-2019 at 08:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    you're ignoring the fact the lower quintile wouldn't pay any sales tax
    on either basic or discretionary spending. from their perspective that makes all sales tax paid by other quintiles 100% progressive.
    Ken, if you follow the conversation, a poster specifically said: "^ Alberta should have NO income tax and a PST instead... with no god forsaken rebates." Which is why Whattagame posted as he did, I would assume.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    you're ignoring the fact the lower quintile wouldn't pay any sales tax
    on either basic or discretionary spending. from their perspective that makes all sales tax paid by other quintiles 100% progressive.
    Ken, if you follow the conversation, a poster specifically said: "^ Alberta should have NO income tax and a PST instead... with no god forsaken rebates." Which is why Whattagame posted as he did, I would assume.
    which i suppose just means i disagree with the original poster on two of his three points as well...
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  36. #736

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    you're ignoring the fact the lower quintile wouldn't pay any sales tax
    on either basic or discretionary spending. from their perspective that makes all sales tax paid by other quintiles 100% progressive.
    Ken, if you follow the conversation, a poster specifically said: "^ Alberta should have NO income tax and a PST instead... with no god forsaken rebates." Which is why Whattagame posted as he did, I would assume.
    Thanks Marcel.

  37. #737

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    April 24, 2019 facility listing
    http://www.cpsa.ca/FacilityListing/A...ng_Imaging.pdf

    Remand is in page 18. No mention of number of units.


    Question: So if a unit is to be decommissioned is it removed first or is a replacement installed before hand?

  38. #738

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    ^Depends on space for the most part - is there room to bring a new one online while still using the old one or not?

    Also - not a single MRI Technologist employed at the Remand, only combined Xray Lab Technicians.

  39. #739

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    What? HL is talking out her rear end again without a bother to fact check? I am Jack completely lack of surprise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whattagame View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    you're ignoring the fact the lower quintile wouldn't pay any sales tax
    on either basic or discretionary spending. from their perspective that makes all sales tax paid by other quintiles 100% progressive.
    Ken, if you follow the conversation, a poster specifically said: "^ Alberta should have NO income tax and a PST instead... with no god forsaken rebates." Which is why Whattagame posted as he did, I would assume.
    Thanks Marcel.
    as i said to Marcel, i don't agree that there should be no income tax - there are too many including many corporations who would not pay a fair share of contributing to government revenue without an income tax. the issue arises when the rates reach a point where very expensive tax deferral or avoidance measures become more attractive than paying the tax. we see this already at the federal level and this is an area that has equal negative trickle down impacts on the provinces as those measures end up being applicable at both levels. i have already made my position on a sales tax clear along with my reasons for it. harmonizing it with the gst would maintain the same progressiveness embedded in the federal system as well as allowing it to start tomorrow with no need for additional infrastructure or costs for government or the private sector. that being part of my support was also pretty clear and explicit. as for my not addressing the op's comment on rebates that could equally have applied to those stupid ralph-bucks and assuming my comments would stand on their own, obviously they did not and for that i apologize.
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  41. #741

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Whattagame View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    you're ignoring the fact the lower quintile wouldn't pay any sales tax
    on either basic or discretionary spending. from their perspective that makes all sales tax paid by other quintiles 100% progressive.
    Ken, if you follow the conversation, a poster specifically said: "^ Alberta should have NO income tax and a PST instead... with no god forsaken rebates." Which is why Whattagame posted as he did, I would assume.
    Thanks Marcel.
    as i said to Marcel, i don't agree that there should be no income tax - there are too many including many corporations who would not pay a fair share of contributing to government revenue without an income tax. the issue arises when the rates reach a point where very expensive tax deferral or avoidance measures become more attractive than paying the tax. we see this already at the federal level and this is an area that has equal negative trickle down impacts on the provinces as those measures end up being applicable at both levels. i have already made my position on a sales tax clear along with my reasons for it. harmonizing it with the gst would maintain the same progressiveness embedded in the federal system as well as allowing it to start tomorrow with no need for additional infrastructure or costs for government or the private sector. that being part of my support was also pretty clear and explicit. as for my not addressing the op's comment on rebates that could equally have applied to those stupid ralph-bucks and assuming my comments would stand on their own, obviously they did not and for that i apologize.
    No worries. I was thrown by the comment about "rich" and "poor" being derogatory (anything can be used pejoratively, I guess.) I was suspicious upon reading that, and kind of lost my train of thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whattagame View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Whattagame View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    you're ignoring the fact the lower quintile wouldn't pay any sales tax
    on either basic or discretionary spending. from their perspective that makes all sales tax paid by other quintiles 100% progressive.
    Ken, if you follow the conversation, a poster specifically said: "^ Alberta should have NO income tax and a PST instead... with no god forsaken rebates." Which is why Whattagame posted as he did, I would assume.
    Thanks Marcel.
    as i said to Marcel, i don't agree that there should be no income tax - there are too many including many corporations who would not pay a fair share of contributing to government revenue without an income tax. the issue arises when the rates reach a point where very expensive tax deferral or avoidance measures become more attractive than paying the tax. we see this already at the federal level and this is an area that has equal negative trickle down impacts on the provinces as those measures end up being applicable at both levels. i have already made my position on a sales tax clear along with my reasons for it. harmonizing it with the gst would maintain the same progressiveness embedded in the federal system as well as allowing it to start tomorrow with no need for additional infrastructure or costs for government or the private sector. that being part of my support was also pretty clear and explicit. as for my not addressing the op's comment on rebates that could equally have applied to those stupid ralph-bucks and assuming my comments would stand on their own, obviously they did not and for that i apologize.
    No worries. I was thrown by the comment about "rich" and "poor" being derogatory (anything can be used pejoratively, I guess.) I was suspicious upon reading that, and kind of lost my train of thought.
    that's okay... to some degree ii was also thrown off by your comment that "Because sales taxes disproportionately tax the poor, and poor people ignore that because rich people scream "TRICKLE DOWN!" we've beaten the first half of that comment to death and at least come to an understanding if not full agreement. on the second half, my concern with your comment was the implication that "poor people" ignore things that effect them because "rich people" scream at them to. if poor people ignore anything, it's probably because they don't have the time or the energy left after dealing with what they need to deal with daily, not because of what is to them probably not much more than white noise. and even if they are ignoring something, it's not because they don't have the information or that they don't understand it. some of the poor people i know are some of the most informed and smartest people i know. and some of the rich people i know are some of the dumbest. that's the thing that classifying people in other than their financial capacity based on their financial capacity is derogatory. do i have a better descriptive? no, i don't (and i don't think quintile is a front-runner ). i think we all just need to be more cautious and aware of using any term - rich or poor - when describing people, particularly when it's not a term that can be extended to be defining for the individual even if it may define their [current] circumstances.

    ps. please don't take this as being argumentative rather than claritive. i'm pretty sure our respective views on this are probably pretty close...
    Last edited by kcantor; 29-04-2019 at 11:32 AM.
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  43. #743

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    I might have posted on another thread an article indicating that most sales taxes in the US have become more and more regressive. I’ll look for it later.

  44. #744

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ps. please don't take this as being argumentative rather than claritive. i'm pretty sure our respective views on this are probably pretty close...
    I'm picking up what you're laying down. I think we're actually on the same page re: rich & poor. I was just making a pointed, albeit generalized statement pertaining to a specific line of commenting.

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    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...-lab-1.5128507

    Kenney was so sure the superlab was a waste of money and was going to cancel it asap.
    Now they say they're going to read the actual report and get advice from the person who wrote the report, which suggested a new superlab was required.

  46. #746

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    ^at least they are looking into the costs/ramifications before cancelling the contracts the NDP entered into. It would have saved the province $1.36 billion in wasted payouts if the NDP had done the same before foolishly changing the rules on coal contracts, the NDP could have built another hospital for that.

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    Hopefully construction can be restarted with minimal delay. The fact the new Health Minister is seeking expert advice is encouraging because Kenney is the one who took an ideological position, not the former NDP government which followed the advice of medical laboratory experts including Dr. Penny Ballem, Dr. Lorne Tyrell and others.

  48. #748

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    PCL will be able to get a delay claim in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BalancedOP View Post
    PCL will be able to get a delay claim in.
    Indeed. And the amount of delay is increasing by the second. Let's hope the new Premier does the right thing and gets behind construction and completion of the lab in the public health system.

  50. #750

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    Cancelled:

    https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?x...92CADFD4E4726C

    Edmonton lab hub cancelled to focus on patients

    June 20, 2019 Media inquiries
    The government has kept its promise to cancel the Edmonton clinical laboratory hub project.
    “We’re standing by our commitment to cancel the expensive and disruptive superlab project and the ideologically driven plan to nationalize DynaLife. We’re going to put patients at the centre of the health system and invest health-care dollars where they’re most needed to strengthen our publicly funded health system and deliver better results for Albertans.”
    Tyler Shandro, Minister of Health
    The capital budget for the lab hub project is $595 million, of which $23 million has been spent to date. Albertans will save another $50 million from the cancellation of the planned buyout of DynaLife in 2022.
    “The cancellation of this project will allow government to focus on patients and delivering a world-class health-care system. As per our contracts on the lab hub project, vendors will be compensated for the termination of contracts. With the project’s cancellation, the construction site will be restored.”
    Prasad Panda, Minister of Infrastructure
    The government will work with Alberta Health Services, lab services providers and other stakeholders to determine priorities for investment to ensure reliable and sustainable lab services for years to come.
    Quick facts

    • Alberta Infrastructure paused construction on the lab hub on April 19, 2019 in order to minimize costs and give government time to review the project’s plans.
    • Lab tests inform more than 70 per cent of health-care decisions.
    • There are 75 million lab tests performed in Alberta each year.
    • About 2.3 million Albertans get lab tests annually.

    Alberta’s publicly funded health system spends about $770 million each year on laboratory medicine, or about four per cent of total annual health system spending

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    Stupid AF

  52. #752

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    It was inevitable. Regressive illiberals have a pretty simple MO.
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    What else is this government gonna cancel next? Would it have killed them to "kill the Super Lab," but then "Hey Edmonton - shovels are going in the ground for the new SW hospital asap."

  54. #754

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    ^I bet that's on the chopping block next

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    FWIW, the hospital site sign on 127 St. that had been covered with sheets of ply has now had said covering removed.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

  56. #756

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    LOL

    $23m spent to date.

    guaranteed this will go to arbitration as the PCL will claim for damages due to lost profit and who know what else they'll claim for
    legal costs alone to the province to arbitrate or even fight litigation will be easily $5m+

    eventually pay out to PCL
    remediate the site

    save $50m? yea sure...in the 4 year program maybe...just in time for the next election
    long run, we lose money.

    why couldn't the lab be built and force dynalife to centralize into the superlab in the next agreement? You don't have to own their operations.

    Talk about just wasting money.

  57. #757

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    It's interesting how the Minister can claim the move to centralize lab services be "ideologically driven" when it was a policy supported by both the NDP and the previous Conservative government.

    It's also interesting how they can claim to be putting "patients at the centre" while in the same breath acknowledging that lab results inform 70% of clinical decisions.

  58. #758

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    $23 million WASTED
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  59. #759

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    A win for the DBA, a loss for Albertans.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

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    Oh now the NDs call waisting money. Hello pots, meet kettle..
    Animals are my passion.

  62. #762

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    It’s only a win because DBA knows that a closed-off, insular, streetscape-killing operation like DynaLife is the best they could hope to occupy that space Downtown.

    Well done!
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    They should build it as part of the new hospital on 127th. Just add it right on. Wouldn’t that make more sense rather than standing alone out by the sporting venues. LRT will be going there as well and people could walk into the lab area right from the hospital. But then again, if it’s not needed .......

  64. #764

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Oh now the NDs call waisting money. Hello pots, meet kettle..
    I guess you don't think health care is important. Testing labs are a pretty important part of health care. Love how you label anyone that opposes Jason Kenneys terrible plan as NDs

  65. #765

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    They should build it as part of the new hospital on 127th. Just add it right on. Wouldn’t that make more sense rather than standing alone out by the sporting venues. LRT will be going there as well and people could walk into the lab area right from the hospital. But then again, if it’s not needed .......
    South campus is a lot more than sports venues and did you know the LRT stops there already?? Its also super close to the uofa hospital... which is kinda the medical hub of central/northern alberta...

  66. #766

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    An old bitty calling for cuts to the public sectors of health & education that can't actually use the correct version of "wasted" is as perfect example of stereotypical self-defeating boomer ignorance as you can get.
    Last edited by noodle; 21-06-2019 at 09:32 AM. Reason: forgot a letter, didn't wanna be a hypocrite calling out other people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    LOL

    $23m spent to date.

    guaranteed this will go to arbitration as the PCL will claim for damages due to lost profit and who know what else they'll claim for
    legal costs alone to the province to arbitrate or even fight litigation will be easily $5m+

    eventually pay out to PCL
    remediate the site

    save $50m? yea sure...in the 4 year program maybe...just in time for the next election
    long run, we lose money.

    why couldn't the lab be built and force dynalife to centralize into the superlab in the next agreement? You don't have to own their operations.

    Talk about just wasting money.
    There needs to be a full accounting for how much cancelling a project already under construction is actually going to cost beyond the $23 million spent on construction thus far. The Infrastructure Minister has already made it clear that terminating contracts with project vendors is not included in this amount, nor is restoring the South Campus site. Does the $23 million include all the engineering and design costs? What about all the years of careful planning by the Health Quality Council and others that pre-dated construction?

    If the concern was about AHS operating the new lab, a revised deal could have been struck to have Dynalife operate it. The $50 million was never about compensating Dynalife, it was a commercial transaction to purchase equipment and inventory from their existing lab for transfer to the new lab.

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    It would of cost way more than the NDP said it was going to cost.( way more)
    I do think it's a terrible waste( the 23 million)
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    It would of cost way more than the NDP said it was going to cost.( way more)
    I do think it's a terrible waste( the 23 million)
    a mistake? i think so.
    a waste? probably.
    a terrible waste? that descriptor still probably belongs to the ndp's handling of the grand prairie hospital. that rash and foolish decision will cost hundreds of millions in public money on top of bankrupting countless trades and workers.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  70. #770

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    Yeah, the contractors of Grande Prairie Hospital should be totally free to miss deadlines and demand more money beyond the contract. Because that's how business deals with government contracts in Alberta.

  71. #771

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    They should build it as part of the new hospital on 127th. Just add it right on. Wouldn’t that make more sense rather than standing alone out by the sporting venues. LRT will be going there as well and people could walk into the lab area right from the hospital. But then again, if it’s not needed .......
    South campus is a lot more than sports venues and did you know the LRT stops there already?? Its also super close to the uofa hospital... which is kinda the medical hub of central/northern alberta...
    Yup that area has the Medical examiners office as well as the federal med examiners office. Alberta Gov testing labs like food safety. I know the milk testing labs are there. The cyclotron is also on site. Plus they all have LRT access. This would have also freed up space in the U of A hospital that is currently the provincial labs. No if the NDP had not decided to do the labs the UCP would have in Red Deer. Miz hospital expansion will be cut next. then the SW hospital. hearing some of the new schools are being shelved until a later date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Yeah, the contractors of Grande Prairie Hospital should be totally free to miss deadlines and demand more money beyond the contract. Because that's how business deals with government contracts in Alberta.
    right...

    so you think more than 600 change orders and more than 400 scope changes just in the last two years after the contract was finalized in 2016 - many of which included the demolition of previously completed work in order to implement them - should somehow be paid for by the contractor and not the owner who initiated them.

    is that really how you think government should treat alberta businesses and alberta workers?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Yeah, the contractors of Grande Prairie Hospital should be totally free to miss deadlines and demand more money beyond the contract. Because that's how business deals with government contracts in Alberta.
    right...

    so you think more than 600 change orders and more than 400 scope changes just in the last two years after the contract was finalized in 2016 - many of which included the demolition of previously completed work in order to implement them - should somehow be paid for by the contractor and not the owner who initiated them.

    is that really how you think government should treat alberta businesses and alberta workers?
    I think it’s also a reflection of the poor quality design and engineering that we’ve seen over the past while. When I worked on hospitals in Calgary, the projects were well designed, managed well by the CHR project managers and architects, engineers and contractors were held accountable for their work. Over the past ten years I’ve seen a significant erosion in the quality of work coming from architects and engineers and also a lack of accountability. If the project is designed, engineered and managed badly, the project just isn’t going to go well

  74. #774

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    If the contract was finalized in 2016, that'd mean the vast majority of the blame for getting off on the wrong foot would fall on the individuals who were responsible for the initial, multi-year procurement, no?

    I get that it's been a huge giant clusterfook of the highest degree, but public procurements are about as easy to change the path on as a train. The NDP may have put the top slice of bread on the ***** sandwich, but they're not the ones who picked out the spread.
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    From what I've heard, Alberta Infrastructure was an absolute nightmare to deal with on that hospital. I think that a lot of the problems stemmed from the delivery/procurement model used, and I think that decision was made by the previous government, not the NDP. It was some sort of design/build model, instead of the usual design/bid/build. I think, anyway, I haven't followed it too closely. The project being put on hold and monies frozen absolutely has put numerous companies out of business. I think in Schendel Mechanical's case, which is the largest that I know of, it was the crowbar that broke the camel's back. They weren't doing very well in general, I don't think. They're still in protection or receivership I think, but it's highly unlikely they'll come out of it.

    Whether it was the right decision to terminate the contract or not, I have no idea. Generally speaking you're probably best to finish with who you started with, but if the relationship had become so toxic, maybe that wasn't realistic or possible. The only people who are going to be happy with how that mess turns out are lawyers.

  76. #776
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    Yup, the procurement model was 100% the responsibility/decision of the PC's: https://globalnews.ca/news/4361220/g...ce-of-default/

    The hospital contract was awarded to Graham Construction in July 2011 under the former Progressive Conservative government and construction was underway in 2014.
    However, most of the actual construction happened under the NDP government. Whether the constant changes were their responsibility, or because of poor initial planning under the PC's, I have no idea.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 21-06-2019 at 12:11 PM.

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    ^ design build projects aren’t bad generally speaking. I wonder if it wasn’t a design assist model which is definitely troublesome as it takes a lot of risk off the consultants and places it on the contractors. I know of a number of design assist projects that have not gone well. It’s supposed to save money by facilitating efficiency and cost saving changes but in the end everyone just ends up pointing their fingers at each other because no one wants to take responsibility for problems

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    Heh, don't get me started on procurement models that download risk from the owner, GC and consultants on to sub-trades. That seems to be the model-du-jour right now. "Give us a firm price based upon this napkin. Then the consultant will actually design the project, and your ability to influence that will be minimal since they work for the owner, not you. Once the design is done, no matter how different it is from what you proposed, you will be unable to pursue any extras or change orders. And if you manage to save anything, we keep 75% of those savings."

    Where do I sign!?!

  79. #779

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Whether the constant changes were their responsibility, or because of poor initial planning under the PC's, I have no idea.
    It's likely both. Poor planning by the PCs could have created a very difficult-to-navigate set of circumstances for the NDP to operate inside of.

    If only the NDP had the UCPs fortitude to legislate contracts straight into the shredder & operate/negotiate in bad faith this whole mess could have been prevented!
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    ^^When I was in construction we did a lot of DTO work for a large organization, and all they would give us was the “intended operation” of the equipment and we were responsible for making it work. It was always a challenge because in the end we were on the hook if it didn’t work as “intended”. At least the PM for the site knew what he was doing.

    I was once asked to price the wiring of a complete Trane Tracer system in a high end private school down in West Van. Whoever installed the controls didn’t wire it and the GC never held them accountable, and the contractor walked. As I’m looking at it, they’re literally buffing and waxing the floors and putting the desks in the classrooms. I said I’ll only do it T&M & can’t be responsible for scuffs to floors & ceilings, but they were adamant that they wanted a firm price to do a complete controls wiring job in a fully finished school full of brand new high end finishes, and take responsibility for any damage. As the song goes... know when to walk away, know when to run...

  81. #781

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    Ahh the ol' Agnes Skinner model.



    16 seconds in, if it doesn't autoseek there.
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    I’ve done a lot of work for govts throughout my life and they are a pain in the as each time. Too many cooks spoiling the soup, plus unusual protocols. Also very slow on the paying end.

  83. #783

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    From my experience as grief counsellor for a friend who has had to deal with Alberta Infrastructure internally for several facility moves, they confuse confidence with competence for their in-house responsibilities as well, ignoring the stakeholders after torturous series of meetings, staff turnover with loss of organizational intelligence, rushed "cost-saving" endeavours that jack up final costs, time and effort wasted on trying to jam services into whatever surplus space they need to use to justify past poor decisions in acquiring or retaining it, and just a host of unnecessary grief for folks who try hard to play along and be responsible for their end of the discovery-requirements phases, only to be ignored and subjected to an inevitable (and thoroughly predictable) clusterf*ck that drives the good people away.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  84. #784

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    Nah, sticking it to Edmonton and ensuring that a few more sandwiches are sold downtown is more important than quality health care.

    Killing Edmonton superlab 'doesn't change the evidence' it's needed, health council says

    Announced three years ago, the plan was based on a review conducted in 2016 by the health quality council, which has a legislated mandate to promote and improve patient safety and health service quality in Alberta.


    "We certainly understand that the government has to look at its priorities and available funding for all their different projects so we understand difficult decisions were made in regard to the lab project," Andrew Neuner, the council's CEO, said Friday.


    Neuner said the health quality council's recommendation to bring lab services under a single public-sector platform is still valid, since it came out of a larger data review after consulting with more than 1,400 people.


    "The evidence still exists to support that," he said. "We respect the government has to balance a variety of priorities and funding ability in order to move forward with it but it doesn't change the evidence."


    Current issues with Edmonton's lab services delivery include outdated equipment, along with inconsistent information systems and reporting protocols, Neuner said.


    He said consolidating lab services would have provided more government control over public policy, increased efficiency and allowed Albertans to receive their lab tests and results in a more timely manner.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...eded-1.5185263

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    ^Takes guts for the CEO of the Health Quality Council of Alberta to directly contradict the UCP government on the need for the superlab. Good for him for speaking truth to power.

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    ^I don't think most are debating the 'need' for a superlab or some type of centralized facility. It's a matter of whether it's better managed privately or publicly.

    At the end of the day I think we're going to see this regurgitated along with commencing construction on the lab. I'm calling it now

    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...es-in-edmonton

  87. #787

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    Even if they do, it won't be until the next election when the UCP can dangle it like a carrot in front of the Edmonton electorate.

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    Highly unlikely, I think you'll see this happen within the next 12 months.

  89. #789

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Highly unlikely, I think you'll see this happen within the next 12 months.
    That would be a major reversal for Kenney then since everything he's said to date indicates he's perfectly happy with the status quo.
    "Our priority is patients and their timely care," Kenney said. "The NDP priority is a government monopoly in everything including back-end lab services, which are already being done effectively by Albertans through an Alberta private company using ... primarily a downtown office building."
    Source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...-ndp-1.5051939

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Highly unlikely, I think you'll see this happen within the next 12 months.
    That would be a major reversal for Kenney then since everything he's said to date indicates he's perfectly happy with the status quo.
    "Our priority is patients and their timely care," Kenney said. "The NDP priority is a government monopoly in everything including back-end lab services, which are already being done effectively by Albertans through an Alberta private company using ... primarily a downtown office building."
    Source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...-ndp-1.5051939
    Just watch. But I think we'll see this go right back to where it should have gone back in 2015.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Highly unlikely, I think you'll see this happen within the next 12 months.
    That would be a major reversal for Kenney then since everything he's said to date indicates he's perfectly happy with the status quo.
    "Our priority is patients and their timely care," Kenney said. "The NDP priority is a government monopoly in everything including back-end lab services, which are already being done effectively by Albertans through an Alberta private company using ... primarily a downtown office building."
    Source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...-ndp-1.5051939
    Just watch. But I think we'll see this go right back to where it should have gone back in 2015.
    So by "where it should have gone back in 2015" do you mean back to a contract awarded to a private vendor through a flawed RFP process?

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    The best solution would be to resume construction of the super lab and have AHS operate it as a key component of a single integrated provincially medical laboratory service.

    Since Kenney is ideologically opposed to this, a second best solution would be resume construction and have Dynalife operate the new lab once its completed. This would likely mean that most of the $50 million purchase of Dynalife's equipment and other assets could be saved.

    To go back to square one and launch a new RFP process that resulted in the Sonic Healthcare fiasco would be the worst option.

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    Danielle Smith was subbing for Ryan Jespersen on CHED today. Here's her interview with the minister of Health on the lab cancellation.. He said he wants to use a hub and spoke model, basically continuing running simpler tasks at privately run labs for them to profit and sending the expensive and time consuming stuff to the a central health board lab in each city. He said that was the model in Calgary, and mentioned he would be putting out the proposal for a hub lab for RFP, and Dynalife could bid on it; I wouldn't rule out them giving the work to the Calgary group, given the historic loyalties of Conservative parties in the past in this province. It would be an interesting result if Dynalife lost its bid for lab work after winning the campaign to close the super lab.

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    ^The central lab serving Southern Alberta is Calgary Laboratory Services, a fully-owned subsidiary of AHS. So I'm not sure what you mean by the Calgary group?

    The hub and spoke model sounds a lot like what the Health Quality Council proposed and was being implemented by the NDP. Most or all of the satellite labs operated by Dynalife as collection/diagnostic sites would have remained open. Only several older hospital based labs would have been consolidated into the central lab.

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    ^And Calgary Lab Services doesn't exist anymore - it's already been folded into Alberta Public Laboratories

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    Quote Originally Posted by illin View Post
    ^And Calgary Lab Services doesn't exist anymore - it's already been folded into Alberta Public Laboratories
    Well, you never know what Kenny will do. A single Province wide private provider may realize the additional efficiencies just like AHS had planned. Or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by illin View Post
    ^And Calgary Lab Services doesn't exist anymore - it's already been folded into Alberta Public Laboratories
    Since the new South Campus super lab was designed as the anchor of the entire provincial laboratory system, APL's future under the UCP is very much in question.

    More information on APL here: https://www.albertapubliclabs.ca/

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    ^not disagreeing that the future of APL isn't at significant risk. Just stating that the organization of CLS doesn't actually exist currently anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by illin View Post
    ^not disagreeing that the future of APL isn't at significant risk. Just stating that the organization of CLS doesn't actually exist currently anymore.
    My bad, I must have missed in the interview that CLS didn't exist anymore and it was an AHS hands-off subsidiary.

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    Meanwhile life goes on, without huge disasters the NDP predicted with the cancellation of the super lab
    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...-north-america

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