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Thread: How diversified is our economy?

  1. #1
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    Default How diversified is our economy?

    Remember: Until O&G recovers Alberta hasn't recovered. It's not like ~75% of the GDP comes from non-energy & 93% of Albertan jobs are in other sectors. Nope. Only the all-mighty oil matters.
    That's right. Alberta is Big Oil, Big Oil is Alberta so until we're back to massive profits and bonuses for Oil Co CEOs Alberta is officially hurting.

    At least, that's what Jason "Downtown Rescuer" Kenney tells us.
    I intentionally left out the usernames in these quotes. My intent here is, again, to not debate the poster, but the thoughts. I hear sentiments like this all the time here on C2E, from our current governing administration in the Leg, and other moderate to left leaning think tanks. We are more diverse than before. We are not beholden to oil. The vast majority of our prosperity is not with O&G. It is only the big, bad, oil execs and their political cronies that keep oil in the spotlight.

    I don't debate that massive profits and overly large executive bonuses are a social issue - a recent example is the Sears bankruptcy. But, I have to wonder about the Big Oil = Alberta and Alberta < Big Oil type of sentiment...and also just how accurate the ~75% GDP statement is. After all, many here went after the DBA's downtown modal transportation survey for the similar reasons why I have to question these thoughts. AKA...what are the numbers really saying.

    I'm going to assume that the ~75% is coming from the GoA page on economic diversification. The images I am showing are from their own page, located at http://www.albertacanada.com/busines...c-results.aspx







    Now, at a cursory first glance, O&G as a raw, identified percentage of GDP went from 36.1% in 1985 to 18.3% in 2015. Now, this would initially support the ~75% hypothesis from the first quote. real numbers have the ~75% off by +11.1 in 1985, and - 6.7 in 2015, but notwithstanding weighing it with the 1985 dollar and GDP value and correlating that to 2015 dollars..let's just say for now that the under 75% stat still looks good.

    BUT.

    1985 SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKED. I am sure many here on C2E remember the early 1980's. In short, these were the bad years. So, understandably, construction et al was slumping badly. There were no big projects. Heck, I cannot even remember small projects. It sucked.

    2015 - we were just coming off the biggest oil boom in memory. Big projects abound. Airports were growing in leaps and bounds flying workers to Ft McMoney. The full slowdown had not hit yet.

    So, the question is, do these numbers actually support the premise that is put forth above? Given that Alberta's manufacturing, construction, and telecoms projects really paralleled our growth...fuelled by O&G...could that not explain the differences (percentage wise) in the graphs? How many of these construction jobs...these manufacturing dollars...new home purchases...office towers...vessel builds...expansions of Airports...etc are one, maybe 2 degrees of separation from the O&G slice of this pie? Some here on C2E used to submit their tower drawings, so often I used to call it architectural goalie pulling...but the architecturally relevant towers that did get built seemed to have names like Encana on them...

    Comparatively in growth in GDP, Retail was up only 1.5%, Tourism up only 1%, Ag/For down 1.4%, Ed up only .1%, Public Admin down .2%...basically any other indicator that cannot be substantially tied to the cycle, construction, and cashing in of the Big Oil megaprojects either slightly grew, or slightly declined. While your big jumps are in Construction, Finance, and business communication services.

    So...again...are we really that diverse, or getting more diversified as was suggested in the original quotes? Are the jobs (some 93%) not tied to, part of, or within 2 degrees of O&G? Or, as the trends here could suggest, we are as beholden as ever to O&G?

    I'd like to say we are still a one horse town. O&G is a lot bigger than this simple pie chart would represent. Look at Calgary. O&G crashed, and I have lost count of all the peers that have lost their jobs, but didn't actually work directly FOR an O&G sector. Ironworkers, Project Engineers/Managers, Financiers, etc...all gonzo. Given that every speech I've listened to on the rubber chicken circuit where a member of the current administration talks diversity, they always get to pipelines to tidewater as their #1 economic issue. I don't think it is a Jason Kenney ploy (although he is trying to make hay with this for sure), but more a harsh economic reality.

    I don't see gypsum, nickel, etc being mined. Our IT sector is one degree from O&G. My financial clients are all super tied to O&G projects. ...and sure as hell Ag/For is not our saviour...rural Alberta and the farming community is being decimated yearly (and no, this is not about Bill 6...that's industry is much more complex than some silly bill).

    While the categories on this pie chart may look supportive, I cannot support the follow on inference that if the ~18% of GDP that is O&G were to go away, we'd be 75% ok. Nope. We'd be done for.

    Thoughts?
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    What I wonder is how much of this diversity brought money INTO Alberta, not just swirling around within the province. For example, Construction and Bus. & Comm. Services and Finance & Real Estate are the big growth items, but how much of that growth brought money into the province? O&G are pretty much guaranteed to bring money in because we produce WAY more than we can consume; the other 2 are spend-at-home. All the other areas, like Manufacturing and Tourism, that bring money into the province, are flat or shrunk, and don't seem to have replaced the inflow of O&G from the old days.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Good question. I'd tend to agree with your hypothesis. Much of that money swirled around for a bit, but most left the province.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    • Between 2005 and 2015, Alberta's exports of commodities rose 21%, reaching $92.3 billion in 2015. A growing number of those exports are manufactured products and services. By comparison, Alberta exports rose 91% between 2004 and 2014. The much lower 10-year growth rate for 2015 is the result of sharply lower oil and gas prices in 2015.
    • Alberta has had a rapidly growing manufacturing base. Between 2005 and 2015, manufacturing sales grew by 13% to $68 billion.
    • Since 2005, Alberta employment has grown an average of 48,000 new jobs per year: a growth rate of 2.4 per cent per annum. In 2015, employment in the Alberta economy increased by 26,500 from 2014.
    • Alberta’s average unemployment rate in 2015 was the third lowest in Canada at 6.0%.
    • In 2015, Alberta's per capita investment spending was $19,716, the second highest spending of all provinces behind Newfoundland and Labrador, and more than two-and-a-half times the Canadian average of $7,046 per capita.
    • In 2016, Alberta investment is forecast to again drop sharply by 11.9% from 2015 to $66 billion (based on investment intentions for 2016). This decline is again the result of low oil and gas prices which is expected to lead to a 31.3% drop in conventional oil and gas investment, to a 24.5% decline in oil sands spending and to a 36.3% fall in spending by the oil and gas services sector.
    • Alberta leads all provinces in economic growth during the past 20 years, with an average annual GDP growth of 3.2% per year, between 1995 and 2015


    Taken directly from the GoA fast facts on economic diversification. Even when trying to paint a rosy picture...qualifiers on O&G prices, investment, and impact abound...bolding is mine...

    every superlative references the superheated growth of 2005-2015...
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    I wonder what the share energy had in Alberta's economy around 1980, before the NEP. I'd guess around 40%.
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    All those rosy humbers are about due for an update, three years on. Diversification has been a holy grail since the first bust I experienced in the 80s. There was a lot of busy-work, but nearly 40 years on from that time Alberta still makes most of its money (and the illusions of wealth that follow) from digging stuff out of the ground or cutting it off the land. Alberta just got lucky in the geographic sweepstakes and has been able to live larger than it probably ought to.
    Last edited by Spudly; 20-01-2018 at 10:52 PM.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    I highly recommend the Alberta Economic Dashboard: http://economicdashboard.alberta.ca/

    How about that, wells being drilled are at record lows, despite being up over the snap shot year over year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    All those rosy humbers are about due for an update, three years on. Diversification has been a holy grail since the first bust I experienced in the 80s. There was a lot of busy-work, but nearly 40 years on from that time Alberta still makes most of its money (and the illusions of wealth that follow) from digging stuff out of the ground or cutting it off the land. Alberta just got lucky in the geographic sweepstakes and has been able to live larger than it probably ought to.
    the quest for economic diversification goes back further than the 80s. premiers going back to at least the 30s have been looking for it - that's pre-leduc no.1 for those keeping track.

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    I assume a lot of the Contruction and most of the manufacturing Manufacturing impact on GDP is driven by the energy sector.

    Another way to look at diversification would be the Stats Canada Labour force splits. It breaks employees by job category, using different metro areas. Unfortunately last time I looked it's most recent update was 2006.
    https://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tab...abr86b-eng.htm
    Calgary had 6% of it's workforce in Oil & Gas; 8% in Contstruction; and 12% in Professional Scientific and technical services. These were among the highest ratios for any metro area in the country. I assume the technical services was mainly related to Oil and gas.
    Edmonton had 3% of it's workforce in Oil & Gas; 9% in Contstruction; but only 7% in Professional Scientific and technical services. The final category I think represents that Edmonton doesn't employ the same portion of the white collar oil & gas types. The other difference between Edmonton and Calgary labour force is that Edmonton employs 7% under Public administration, versus just 3% in Calgary.
    Another note, GDP 2015 shows 6% from Health Care and 4% from Education. The labour force statistics would suggest about 10% and 7% of Albertans work there (using Edmonton and Calgary numbers).

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    I don't think the NDP have moved the diversity meter one iota since they got in power.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I don't think the NDP have moved the diversity meter one iota since they got in power.
    No, I dont. Which is why in some ways, if they get in with a minority , I wont mind..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I don't think the NDP have moved the diversity meter one iota since they got in power.
    You're the first person to bring up a political party in this thread. No one else made a claim one way or the other, because that's not even the point of the discussion.

    But now that you mention it, which party was in charge for roughly 29 of the last 32 years again?

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    I can only speak anecdotally about my slice of the world, but since the major oil crash of 2014, I've witnessed a slow but steady rebound for my O&G clients - who now talk and operate as if this was a permanent correction vs a temporary downturn - while almost all of my white collar clients have had incredible growth. Information, entertainment, etc. are doing fantastic. I get a pretty broad view, so I can see it from a bit of a higher vantage point than those that are entrenched in a single industry and might not be able to see beyond their walls. That tends to lead to a lot of echo chambers, where a single jobsite or industry is hurting, so they think everything is bad, when in reality it really isn't.
    Last edited by Chmilz; 22-01-2018 at 03:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I don't think the NDP have moved the diversity meter one iota since they got in power.
    You're the first person to bring up a political party in this thread. No one else made a claim one way or the other, because that's not even the point of the discussion.

    But now that you mention it, which party was in charge for roughly 29 of the last 32 years again?
    To be fair...

    In my OP, there is a reference to Kenney that was a bit of a touchpoint to the political party bash/blame/ballyhoo that often comes into this discussion. This rhetoric often comes into play both ways, both in blaming who is here, and as you point out, who was there. The opening quotes from another thread were a rebuttal in yet another round and round between posters.

    But, equally fair, you're right that this is far more than a political party...for if we are geologically and geographically beholden to specific primary industries, how can we diversify? It is actually this rhetoric that made me want to bring this up, as I am very tired of even the economic diversification initiatives I am trying to get going being quagmired in political rhetoric and people demanding allegiance to their party/jurisdiction/petty little world. It even comes to roost lately when our current administration said they could not be blamed for the slowdown as oil prices etc were world commodities and out of their control, but when the prices started to rebound and some investment (as Chmilz mentions) starts, then it is their sound fiscal and social policies that are sparking this rebound...blah blah blah...they all do it. ...even after a leadership race where Getty is removed and Klein comes in...old guy did this, new guy is amazing...blah blah blah


    ...and still, the bar has not moved...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I can only speak anecdotally about my slice of the world, but since the major oil crash of 2014, I've witnessed a slow must steady rebound for my O&G clients - who now talk and operate as if this was a permanent correction vs a temporary downturn - while almost all of my white collar clients have had incredible growth. Information, entertainment, etc. are doing fantastic. I get a pretty broad view, so I can see it from a bit of a higher vantage point than those that are entrenched in a single industry and might not be able to see beyond their walls. That tends to lead to a lot of echo chambers, where a single jobsite or industry is hurting, so they think everything is bad, when in reality it really isn't.
    Thanks for qualifying that this is anecdotal. Appreciated...

    I don't see the same thing at all. My wife's industry (Law) is seeing declines across the board. Lawyers are short of work, except in some Real Estate and unfortunately an explosive growth in family law files (money is a major cause of divorce).

    O&G clients still have a more trepidatious outlook, although the outright layoff frenzy and hiring freezes are thawing to your point. I can readily align to a market correction cause as well...as the market was far too hyperinflated.

    In the link that David Jackson listed, the indicators don't show any superlative growth that could be labeled "fantastic"...so when I go by the measured metrics or KPI's (yes, there is a difference)...I don't see entertainment or information nowhere near fantastic or incredible...and they still don't seem insulated from the lacklustre to mediocre oil investment.

    So then...are we really diverse? In KC's related thread about the Alberta Advantage, he/she asks about our strengths and could they work to attract. The response was one word - geography. It resounded like a thunderclap. I did respond there as our geography is a killer in several of my current, and previous attempts at diversification. Is that a key issue overall? Are we both geologically and geographically constrained?
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    I can speak from a tourism viewpoint that likely close to half of the tourism % are connected to oil and gas. Other than the mountain resorts, the western, northern, central communities keep their hotels going based on extraction work or surveying or drilling, etc. Even Edmonton and Calgary have a high % related to O and G. Not as high as rural areas but still significant. Diversification has happened a bit around Edmonton. A company like Gilead (pharmaceutical research) is a prime example as they have doubled their footprint and their staff in the last couple of years. Probably the biggest growth in Alberta has been the service economy to meet the needs or the growing provincial population. O and G though so important to our wealth always seems to be the whipping boy in economic booms and busts.
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    Alberta is blessed and cursed by its geography: cursed because it's far away from most of the world and not really between any bigger centres; blessed because it sits on a patch of land that used to be underwater and collected lots of plants and animals millions of years ago, which then died and decomposed to give us lots of coal and oil and gas that the world wants in varying degrees.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I don't think the NDP have moved the diversity meter one iota since they got in power.
    You're the first person to bring up a political party in this thread. No one else made a claim one way or the other, because that's not even the point of the discussion.

    But now that you mention it, which party was in charge for roughly 29 of the last 32 years again?
    Well the health of the economy is put in the hands of the government to spend (or not) the money it collects on our behalf. NDP implements a carbon tax so that:

    In addition to the 28 per cent chunk of the tax that's sent right back to Albertans, another 19 per cent is used to fund grants to renewable energy companies, green-tech developers and to help communities that are transitioning away from coal power.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...lars-1.4028902

    This 19% is used to fund grants to renewable energy companies.

    So far that money has not moved the diversification meter one iota. If you can find proof I would like to see it.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    When did I make any claim that the carbon tax was supposed to be part of an economic diversification plan? Why would I find proof for something that I never claimed? Heck, I don't believe the NDP ever sold it as some sort of magic diversification plan either. The carbon tax is supposed to reduce carbon emissions. From what we've seen so far in BC, that appears to be the case.

    But since we're on the topic, I will say that from what little I've followed of Alberta's carbon tax, I'm not much of a fan of how it was structured and implemented. I'd have preferred they just copied BC's and been done with it. Make it revenue neutral by reducing income taxes, and keep it as simple as possible. Don't try to pick winners and losers. But the NDP being the NDP, they couldn't help themselves.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 22-01-2018 at 07:00 PM.

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    ^You didn't but I'm just trying to point out the carbon tax is part of a diversification plan. I even provided the link that said 19% of it was for other types of renewable resources. I take that to mean 'diversification'. If you don't get the connection not my fault.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    diversification means choice, it doesn’t mean a lack of reliance. if oil and gas is 35% of the provincial economy, it’s obvious we are reliant on it. if that falls to 20% we are simply less reliant on oil and gas and more reliant on other sectors. diversification continues to be presented as the holy grail of independence from oil and gas. foolish and shortsighted and doomed to failure - the only way to be independent from it is for it not to exist. does anyone think seattle should strive to be free of its reliance on microsoft or orlando from disney? successful diversification comes from building on strength, not taking away from it. the other approach is what saw boeing leave seattle making them more reliant on microsoft - the focus on diversification and not support resulted in their being less diversified.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I don't see the same thing at all.
    Neither does Top_Dawg.


    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    O&G clients still have a more trepidatious outlook, although the outright layoff frenzy and hiring freezes are thawing to your point. I can readily align to a market correction cause as well...as the market was far too hyperinflated.
    Layoffs are thawing because there's nobody left to layoff.

    Next step is simply closing the doors completely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^You didn't but I'm just trying to point out the carbon tax is part of a diversification plan. I even provided the link that said 19% of it was for other types of renewable resources. I take that to mean 'diversification'. If you don't get the connection not my fault.
    So you're disappointed that a power generation transition that was only announced in the last 18 months and which has only concluded it's first round of RFP's in the last 2 months or so has not shown up in statistics that end in 2015? Is it also not your fault that Notley doesn't have a time machine?

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    Anecdotally speaking in 1985 the city of Edmonton was on lock down. Nothing was moving rows of townhouses in Clareview sat empty industrial subdivisions remained unoccupied for 15-20 years. A body blow that took decades to recover from.
    This lastest “recession “ is not noticeable to the casual observer in fact you would one could be excused for thinking that we were doing really well.
    So something has fundamentally changed with the local economy. Is it just a maturing of the economy in step with the critical mass our increased population brings or different fiscal policies of our provincial governments? The diversity of our economy probably is a factor however I don’t know how much but maybe it is enough to give people confidence in moving forward.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Anecdotally speaking in 1985 the city of Edmonton was on lock down. Nothing was moving rows of townhouses in Clareview sat empty industrial subdivisions remained unoccupied for 15-20 years. A body blow that took decades to recover from.
    This lastest “recession “ is not noticeable to the casual observer in fact you would one could be excused for thinking that we were doing really well.
    So something has fundamentally changed with the local economy. Is it just a maturing of the economy in step with the critical mass our increased population brings or different fiscal policies of our provincial governments? The diversity of our economy probably is a factor however I don’t know how much but maybe it is enough to give people confidence in moving forward.
    i think having a bank of canada prime rate that for the last year has been under 3% vs a prime rate in 1985 bouncing around 13% (albeit down from 1981's peak of around 23%) is more of a factor than confidence or diversification. options and time frames that are available today for businesses as well as for individuals at manageable costs simply weren't available or manageable in the '80's. how quickly we forget eh? i don't think there's anything else as fundamentally different in our economy today than that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ....vs a prime rate in 1985 bouncing around 13% (albeit down from 1981's peak of around 23%)

    Top_Dawg remembers that.

    Those were great times.

    If you were a saver.


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    The business LoC for our store hovered around 28% at that time...huge difference to today...
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    In my mind job numbers = strength of local economy.
    Alberta's recession is over, and we'd best make peace with it

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...nion-1.4643869
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    The CBC at it again with this force fed garbage. Really...over! You Might want to let the dozens of clients I have in the Oil & Gas sector this astonishing news.

    The CBC is utter Rubbish.....

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    ^amen !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    The CBC at it again with this force fed garbage. Really...over! You Might want to let the dozens of clients I have in the Oil & Gas sector this astonishing news.

    The CBC is utter Rubbish.....
    Maybe you should go back and learn econ 101. Recession is over means no more negative growth. Doesn't mean that you are back to the same level where the economy was before recession.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    The CBC at it again with this force fed garbage. Really...over! You Might want to let the dozens of clients I have in the Oil & Gas sector this astonishing news.

    The CBC is utter Rubbish.....
    You didn't read the article at all did you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    In my mind job numbers = strength of local economy.
    Alberta's recession is over, and we'd best make peace with it

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...nion-1.4643869
    Im sorry but i dont buy it. April into May has been a slaughter. I was talking to a pres of a certain electrical company.

    "People are holding onto their money right now instead of building , and any jobs that are being bid are super aggressive, its hurting business even at recent low(er) wages"

    edit. too add to this,

    Of Edmontons top 10 projects in value at the moment 6 are gov funded. 3 are ice, and 1 is dead as of right now (Blatchford)

    http://majorprojects.alberta.ca/#lis...r-Construction
    Last edited by S3RI3S; 02-05-2018 at 10:17 PM.

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    You didn't read the article at all did you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    In my mind job numbers = strength of local economy.
    Alberta's recession is over, and we'd best make peace with it

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...nion-1.4643869
    Im sorry but i dont buy it. April into May has been a slaughter. I was talking to a pres of a certain electrical company.

    "People are holding onto their money right now instead of building , and any jobs that are being bid are super aggressive, its hurting business even at recent low(er) wages"

    edit. too add to this,

    Of Edmontons top 10 projects in value at the moment 6 are gov funded. 3 are ice, and 1 is dead as of right now (Blatchford)

    http://majorprojects.alberta.ca/#lis...r-Construction
    Blatchford is dead? But the city just put all the utilities in to get ready for imminent housing construction.

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    Blatchford is far from dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    You didn't read the article at all did you?
    Why let facts get in the way of a good opinion?

    But in all seriousness, I've been reading Tombe's articles on CBC and in MacLean's for the past year, and they're always quite informative and perhaps more importantly, non-biased/partisan. This one from last year was also very good: http://www.macleans.ca/economy/econo...ut-the-budget/

  37. #37

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    The recession is over. That is a fact supported by a plethora of hard statistical evidence, not a matter of opinion.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" - Einstein

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    In my mind job numbers = strength of local economy.
    Alberta's recession is over, and we'd best make peace with it

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...nion-1.4643869
    Im sorry but i dont buy it. April into May has been a slaughter. I was talking to a pres of a certain electrical company.

    "People are holding onto their money right now instead of building , and any jobs that are being bid are super aggressive, its hurting business even at recent low(er) wages"

    edit. too add to this,

    Of Edmontons top 10 projects in value at the moment 6 are gov funded. 3 are ice, and 1 is dead as of right now (Blatchford)

    http://majorprojects.alberta.ca/#lis...r-Construction
    A pres of an electrical company isn't exactly the benchmark of the entire economy. And ya, I'd probably be a bit down that I can no longer super-over-inflate the price to deliver services anymore like many did 2005-2012, and have to come down to more reasonable bids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyYeg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    The CBC at it again with this force fed garbage. Really...over! You Might want to let the dozens of clients I have in the Oil & Gas sector this astonishing news.

    The CBC is utter Rubbish.....
    Maybe you should go back and learn econ 101. Recession is over means no more negative growth. Doesn't mean that you are back to the same level where the economy was before recession.
    Hi there.....That is only one indicator. maybe you should have listened more in your economics class

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    Oh yeah....Stats. That all encompassing final say on how the economy is doing lol.

    How were the stats acquired.

    Who acquired them.

    A little read

    http://www.canadianbusiness.com/blog...-mike-moffatt/
    Last edited by Black Star; 03-05-2018 at 09:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    The CBC at it again with this force fed garbage. Really...over! You Might want to let the dozens of clients I have in the Oil & Gas sector this astonishing news.

    The CBC is utter Rubbish.....
    You didn't read the article at all did you?
    Morning...I sure did. I'm assuming you did as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    The CBC at it again with this force fed garbage. Really...over! You Might want to let the dozens of clients I have in the Oil & Gas sector this astonishing news.

    The CBC is utter Rubbish.....
    You didn't read the article at all did you?
    Morning...I sure did. I'm assuming you did as well.
    I did.
    It's filled with numerical facts, considerations of how though Alberta is in recovery it is still below 2014 (because 2015/2016 were a deep dark hole) and how perception is disconnected for many from the numbers are showing.
    Which part did you find to be "utter rubbish" other than the tag line? The facts or the context or just the conclusion based on the facts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Oh yeah....Stats. That all encompassing final say on how the economy is doing lol.

    How were the stats acquired.

    Who acquired them.

    A little read

    http://www.canadianbusiness.com/blog...-mike-moffatt/
    What does a three year old article about job numbers in specific cities and months have to do with Tombe's article? Small snapshots in time and place can certainly be a bit wonky from time to time. But if you're inferring from that, that all statistics are not to be trusted, then I don't know what to tell you other than you'll have to tell us exactly what is wrong with the stats in Tombe's article.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 03-05-2018 at 12:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    The CBC at it again with this force fed garbage. Really...over! You Might want to let the dozens of clients I have in the Oil & Gas sector this astonishing news.

    The CBC is utter Rubbish.....
    Anecdotes over facts, am I right?

    Alberta leads provinces in economic growth in this new StatsCan GDP report

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    [QUOTE=seamusmcduffs;885074]
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    The CBC at it again with this force fed garbage. Really...over! You Might want to let the dozens of clients I have in the Oil & Gas sector this astonishing news.

    The CBC is utter Rubbish.....

    Oil and gas is no longer the centre of everything. I would not be surprised if they are struggling but it is not representative of the whole economy anymore.

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    [QUOTE=AAAAE;885101]
    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    The CBC at it again with this force fed garbage. Really...over! You Might want to let the dozens of clients I have in the Oil & Gas sector this astonishing news.

    The CBC is utter Rubbish.....

    Oil and gas is no longer the centre of everything. I would not be surprised if they are struggling but it is not representative of the whole economy anymore.
    Agree....we are more diversified in Alberta now especially in Edmonton. Some Oil & gas info. Pages 13...14...and 15 are important. latest info.

    http://www.albertacanada.com/files/a...Winter2017.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Oh yeah....Stats. That all encompassing final say on how the economy is doing lol.

    How were the stats acquired.

    Who acquired them.

    A little read

    http://www.canadianbusiness.com/blog...-mike-moffatt/
    What does a three year old article about job numbers in specific cities and months have to do with Tombe's article? Small snapshots in time and place can certainly be a bit wonky from time to time. But if you're inferring from that, that all statistics are not to be trusted, then I don't know what to tell you other than you'll have to tell us exactly what is wrong with the stats in Tombe's article.
    Why don't you tell us......

    Have you owned a Oil & Gas business for the last 25 years? Please....elaborate your experiences with me. And your bottom line with finances and taxes paid out to the province and Canadian Govt. And how much we have been hit in the last 2 years. Please explain to me and everyone else who has a vested interest in capital lost and employees families that have been abandoned by this so called new statistic that paints a damn rosy picture for us.

    Im waiting.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    The CBC at it again with this force fed garbage. Really...over! You Might want to let the dozens of clients I have in the Oil & Gas sector this astonishing news.

    The CBC is utter Rubbish.....
    Anecdotes over facts, am I right?

    Alberta leads provinces in economic growth in this new StatsCan GDP report

    I hesitate to ask what you do for a living lol.......

    This is not what is going on....

    Next thing you might say is Ontario has balanced their budget lol.

    Ahhhh the Internet.....

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Oh yeah....Stats. That all encompassing final say on how the economy is doing lol.

    How were the stats acquired.

    Who acquired them.

    A little read

    http://www.canadianbusiness.com/blog...-mike-moffatt/
    What does a three year old article about job numbers in specific cities and months have to do with Tombe's article? Small snapshots in time and place can certainly be a bit wonky from time to time. But if you're inferring from that, that all statistics are not to be trusted, then I don't know what to tell you other than you'll have to tell us exactly what is wrong with the stats in Tombe's article.
    Why don't you tell us......

    Have you owned a Oil & Gas business for the last 25 years? Please....elaborate your experiences with me. And your bottom line with finances and taxes paid out to the province and Canadian Govt. And how much we have been hit in the last 2 years. Please explain to me and everyone else who has a vested interest in capital lost and employees families that have been abandoned by this so called new statistic that paints a damn rosy picture for us.

    Im waiting.....
    Are you also aware that a lot of folks were hit hard by the oil and gas sector was due to their fault? So many people in the trades were over cocky that they thought oil would never collapsed; so many went out and bought frivolous shiats because they made good incomes but didn't save any money for rainy days. I try to encourage many in and out of my trades that they need to save only to get laughed at... To give you an example, one guy went out and bought a 40k Harley Davidson only to have it parked in his garage without riding it for 5 years. Let's go low ball on interests that individual could have gained...5 years later had that 40k just sat in his bank, he would have 44k rather than having to sell his bike and other toys at a lost value to cover his mortgage. This not his only frivolous spending. This is common to so many that had great incomes from those good times. Let's not even talk about drug and alcohol addictions now because they thought money grew on trees. I had people that net over 10 a month having to ask to borrow money. Not everyone is like that, but I would say the majority we're. They did that to themselves.
    Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 03-05-2018 at 10:29 PM.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Oh yeah....Stats. That all encompassing final say on how the economy is doing lol.

    How were the stats acquired.

    Who acquired them.

    A little read

    http://www.canadianbusiness.com/blog...-mike-moffatt/
    What does a three year old article about job numbers in specific cities and months have to do with Tombe's article? Small snapshots in time and place can certainly be a bit wonky from time to time. But if you're inferring from that, that all statistics are not to be trusted, then I don't know what to tell you other than you'll have to tell us exactly what is wrong with the stats in Tombe's article.
    Why don't you tell us......

    Have you owned a Oil & Gas business for the last 25 years? Please....elaborate your experiences with me. And your bottom line with finances and taxes paid out to the province and Canadian Govt. And how much we have been hit in the last 2 years. Please explain to me and everyone else who has a vested interest in capital lost and employees families that have been abandoned by this so called new statistic that paints a damn rosy picture for us.

    Im waiting.....
    Are you also aware that a lot of folks were hit hard by the oil and gas sector was due to their fault? So many people in the trades were over cocky that they thought oil would never collapsed; so many went out and bought frivolous shiats because they made good incomes but didn't save any money for rainy days. I try to encourage many in and out of my trades that they need to save only to get laughed at... To give you an example, one guy went out and bought a 40k Harley Davidson only to have it parked in his garage without riding it for 5 years. Let's go low ball on interests that individual could have gained...5 years later had that 40k just sat in his bank, he would have 44k rather than having to sell his bike and other toys at a lost value to cover his mortgage. This not his only frivolous spending. This is common to so many that had great incomes from those good times. Let's not even talk about drug and alcohol addictions now because they thought money grew on trees. I had people that net over 10 a month having to ask to borrow money. Not everyone is like that, but I would say the majority we're. They did that to themselves.
    My gawd....you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Stop babbling. My gawd man, have some self respect lol. Your statement is absolutely embarrassing to say the least.

    Frustrating as hell that you said what you just did and actually want a rational response lol.

  51. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Oh yeah....Stats. That all encompassing final say on how the economy is doing lol.

    How were the stats acquired.

    Who acquired them.

    A little read

    http://www.canadianbusiness.com/blog...-mike-moffatt/
    What does a three year old article about job numbers in specific cities and months have to do with Tombe's article? Small snapshots in time and place can certainly be a bit wonky from time to time. But if you're inferring from that, that all statistics are not to be trusted, then I don't know what to tell you other than you'll have to tell us exactly what is wrong with the stats in Tombe's article.
    Why don't you tell us......

    Have you owned a Oil & Gas business for the last 25 years? Please....elaborate your experiences with me. And your bottom line with finances and taxes paid out to the province and Canadian Govt. And how much we have been hit in the last 2 years. Please explain to me and everyone else who has a vested interest in capital lost and employees families that have been abandoned by this so called new statistic that paints a damn rosy picture for us.

    Im waiting.....
    Are you also aware that a lot of folks were hit hard by the oil and gas sector was due to their fault? So many people in the trades were over cocky that they thought oil would never collapsed; so many went out and bought frivolous shiats because they made good incomes but didn't save any money for rainy days. I try to encourage many in and out of my trades that they need to save only to get laughed at... To give you an example, one guy went out and bought a 40k Harley Davidson only to have it parked in his garage without riding it for 5 years. Let's go low ball on interests that individual could have gained...5 years later had that 40k just sat in his bank, he would have 44k rather than having to sell his bike and other toys at a lost value to cover his mortgage. This not his only frivolous spending. This is common to so many that had great incomes from those good times. Let's not even talk about drug and alcohol addictions now because they thought money grew on trees. I had people that net over 10 a month having to ask to borrow money. Not everyone is like that, but I would say the majority we're. They did that to themselves.
    My gawd....you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Stop babbling. My gawd man, have some self respect lol. Your statement is absolutely embarrassing to say the least.

    Frustrating as hell that you said what you just did and actually want a rational response lol.
    Right! I have no idea when I see that regularly when I'm up north. Ok. I do have self respect hence why I'm telling you as is.
    Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 03-05-2018 at 10:52 PM.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Oh yeah....Stats. That all encompassing final say on how the economy is doing lol.

    How were the stats acquired.

    Who acquired them.

    A little read

    http://www.canadianbusiness.com/blog...-mike-moffatt/
    What does a three year old article about job numbers in specific cities and months have to do with Tombe's article? Small snapshots in time and place can certainly be a bit wonky from time to time. But if you're inferring from that, that all statistics are not to be trusted, then I don't know what to tell you other than you'll have to tell us exactly what is wrong with the stats in Tombe's article.
    Why don't you tell us......

    Have you owned a Oil & Gas business for the last 25 years? Please....elaborate your experiences with me. And your bottom line with finances and taxes paid out to the province and Canadian Govt. And how much we have been hit in the last 2 years. Please explain to me and everyone else who has a vested interest in capital lost and employees families that have been abandoned by this so called new statistic that paints a damn rosy picture for us.

    Im waiting.....
    Are you also aware that a lot of folks were hit hard by the oil and gas sector was due to their fault? So many people in the trades were over cocky that they thought oil would never collapsed; so many went out and bought frivolous shiats because they made good incomes but didn't save any money for rainy days. I try to encourage many in and out of my trades that they need to save only to get laughed at... To give you an example, one guy went out and bought a 40k Harley Davidson only to have it parked in his garage without riding it for 5 years. Let's go low ball on interests that individual could have gained...5 years later had that 40k just sat in his bank, he would have 44k rather than having to sell his bike and other toys at a lost value to cover his mortgage. This not his only frivolous spending. This is common to so many that had great incomes from those good times. Let's not even talk about drug and alcohol addictions now because they thought money grew on trees. I had people that net over 10 a month having to ask to borrow money. Not everyone is like that, but I would say the majority we're. They did that to themselves.
    My gawd....you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Stop babbling. My gawd man, have some self respect lol. Your statement is absolutely embarrassing to say the least.

    Frustrating as hell that you said what you just did and actually want a rational response lol.
    Right! I have no idea when I see that regularly when I'm up north. Ok. I do have self respect hence why I'm telling you as is.
    Ok now you are just being Glib.......I don't know if you are drunk or just a left Liberal.....either way you are still having a bad night with your so called debate.

    I like most of your contributions. You are smart and have a intellectual spin on topics. Not tonight.

    Good night.....

  53. #53

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    I'm not drunk as I only drink 5 times a year and mostly a glass of wine. I wouldn't lie to you , and that is the honest truth. Even if one does a flight job, there is drugs round and you know who is addicted. It is unfortunate. Alcohol is the major one hence why the last two sites with bars are closed because people can't control themselves. CNRL and Albian within the last year.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    I'm not drunk as I only drink 5 times a year and mostly a glass of wine. I wouldn't lie to you , and that is the honest truth. Even if one does a flight job, there is drugs round and you know who is addicted. It is unfortunate. Alcohol is the major one hence why the last two sites with bars are closed because people can't control themselves. CNRL and Albian within the last year.


    lol......insufferable. You are not going to get it.

    Good night Champ.......

  55. #55

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    Get what? You blamed the misfortune of others for the downturn of oil when people had ample money and time to save for rainy days and they didn't. What did I not Get? You didn't see on the NEWS during 2008/09 when people were trying to sell off their toys to make ends meet?
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  56. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    In my mind job numbers = strength of local economy.
    Alberta's recession is over, and we'd best make peace with it

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...nion-1.4643869
    Im sorry but i dont buy it. April into May has been a slaughter. I was talking to a pres of a certain electrical company.

    "People are holding onto their money right now instead of building , and any jobs that are being bid are super aggressive, its hurting business even at recent low(er) wages"

    edit. too add to this,

    Of Edmontons top 10 projects in value at the moment 6 are gov funded. 3 are ice, and 1 is dead as of right now (Blatchford)

    http://majorprojects.alberta.ca/#lis...r-Construction
    A pres of an electrical company isn't exactly the benchmark of the entire economy. And ya, I'd probably be a bit down that I can no longer super-over-inflate the price to deliver services anymore like many did 2005-2012, and have to come down to more reasonable bids.
    You clearly have no idea what your talking about. Rates have stabilized back to (almost) pre boom times 2 years ago. As for reasonable bids, youre even further from the truth - As i mentioned earlier, bids are even tighter now. What even defines reasonable? Cheap, but at the lack of quality? Way too subjective to opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Why don't you tell us......

    Have you owned a Oil & Gas business for the last 25 years? Please....elaborate your experiences with me. And your bottom line with finances and taxes paid out to the province and Canadian Govt. And how much we have been hit in the last 2 years. Please explain to me and everyone else who has a vested interest in capital lost and employees families that have been abandoned by this so called new statistic that paints a damn rosy picture for us.

    Im waiting.....
    Nice try at changing the subject and/or moving the goal posts. I ask again, what specifically do you take issue with in Tombe's article, and what relevance does your totally unrelated and 3 year old article have to do with it?

    But since you asked, while I am not in oil and gas, I do indeed own a commercial construction business and my family has been in the industry for 60 years. The last couple years haven't been all that much fun, but things definitely turned for the better 12-18 months ago in a significant way. And at least I have the balls to post under my own name, while you lob insults from anonymity. Ahhhh the internet, indeed.

  58. #58

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    Commend you Marcel. As someone who's worked in Oil&Gas for over 15 years and been stationed all accross the Province (including both Edmonton and Calgary) it's pretty clear on the inside that things are MUCH better. WTI is trading at 3 year highs, with a boatload of shale liquids Rigs being deployed. Mega projects like TMX, LNG and numerous petrochemical projects (both Interpipeline and Pembina are pushing projects in the Industrial Heartland) are pushing forward (with their individual challenges of course.

    So to see this all actually happening in DT Calgary, it's pretty ridiculous that we keep hearing messaging that everything is horrible and Alberta is dead. A lot of it, mind you, is purely political as a certain party doesn't want Albertans to think it isn't in their birth right to rule the province. I mean how weird would it be if the Province starts taking off economically just as Oil recovers right?!?! How would we still pin everything bad as Oil tanked on the current governing party?

  59. #59

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    I work in Oil & Gas, and can say first hand that things are going very well. But guess what? What I see doesn't matter, because what I see isn't necessarily reflective of the entire economy. So, rather than refuting actual data with anecdotes (which are in turn refuted by other anecdotes), let's glean what information we can from that data to gain actual knowledge of the situation.

  60. #60

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    Holy fracking **** take this oil and gas topic / pissing / dick measuring contest somewhere else this is about tower B ffs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Holy fracking **** take this oil and gas topic / pissing / dick measuring contest somewhere else this is about tower B ffs
    Agreed. Hello Admin - some deletes please.

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Holy fracking **** take this oil and gas topic / pissing / dick measuring contest somewhere else this is about tower B ffs
    Agreed. Hello Admin - some deletes please.
    yeah i already reported this whole damned derail and nothing that was over 12+ hours ago now.....

  63. #63

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    I loved it. Maybe move them to a new thread.

    It could be called:
    Alberta’s economy - spin vs reality.

  64. #64

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    It was in regards to the economy potentially causing the delay of the project. Construction is a lot more than just a style of crane wishing to be used.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Also throws a pickle into hosting the Draft and All star game anytime soon. I remember Bettman was saying prior to Rogers construction that we would get both when the "Ice District was complete."
    I wouldn't believe that unless I had it in writing and signed in Bettman's blood (if he has any). The NHL hates having the All Star game in Canada. Players hate it too. In US cities a bunch of them can go out and have dinner and not be recognized.

  66. #66

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    Come on now, You tell me they don't or wouldn't enjoy media attention?
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Huh? What an odd thing to say? We ARE getting both the Draft and All Star game very soon....you can bank on it. Not sure what Canada has to do with anything......perhaps no Canadian city has had either for a bit is cuz we haven't had any new rinks to showcase them in, whilst the States pumps a new one out yearly. "Players hate it too," another odd thing to say. How about you just retract your entire statement with a big fat apology?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Holy fracking **** take this oil and gas topic / pissing / dick measuring contest somewhere else this is about tower B ffs
    Agreed. Hello Admin - some deletes please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Holy fracking **** take this oil and gas topic / pissing / dick measuring contest somewhere else this is about tower B ffs
    Agreed. Hello Admin - some deletes please.
    yeah i already reported this whole damned derail and nothing that was over 12+ hours ago now.....
    this whole damned derail???

    and 12 whole hours and counting???

    wow...

    maybe admin has a real life with real things that need to get done or get dealt with that have real consequences?

    get a life with something real to worry about - this whole site is pretty much a gift from admin to the rest of us...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Holy fracking **** take this oil and gas topic / pissing / dick measuring contest somewhere else this is about tower B ffs
    Agreed. Hello Admin - some deletes please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Holy fracking **** take this oil and gas topic / pissing / dick measuring contest somewhere else this is about tower B ffs
    Agreed. Hello Admin - some deletes please.
    yeah i already reported this whole damned derail and nothing that was over 12+ hours ago now.....
    this whole damned derail???

    and 12 whole hours and counting???

    wow...

    maybe admin has a real life with real things that need to get done or get dealt with that have real consequences?

    get a life with something real to worry about - this whole site is pretty much a gift from admin to the rest of us...
    Not to mention that this is the nature of conversation. Sometimes it meanders on and off topic. I’ve never understood why people get so irritated by something that is just a quality of normal interaction between humans.

  70. #70

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    alright men, lets whip out our c****. measuring time!

  71. #71
    Forum Administrator *
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    I moved some posts from Ice District Tower B.
    Ow

  72. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Holy fracking **** take this oil and gas topic / pissing / dick measuring contest somewhere else this is about tower B ffs
    Agreed. Hello Admin - some deletes please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Holy fracking **** take this oil and gas topic / pissing / dick measuring contest somewhere else this is about tower B ffs
    Agreed. Hello Admin - some deletes please.
    yeah i already reported this whole damned derail and nothing that was over 12+ hours ago now.....
    this whole damned derail???

    and 12 whole hours and counting???

    wow...

    maybe admin has a real life with real things that need to get done or get dealt with that have real consequences?

    get a life with something real to worry about - this whole site is pretty much a gift from admin to the rest of us...


    this whole site is pretty much a gift from admin to the rest of us...
    Exactly!!!!

  73. #73

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    In the recent political news a clip was played of a lady saying that: ‘the NDP is eroding the Alberta Advantage’. I have yet to find anyone that can clearly detail and substantiate what that is or was and how it worked for us. But it always sounded like a wonderful catchphrase.

  74. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I don't think the NDP have moved the diversity meter one iota since they got in power.
    No, I dont. Which is why in some ways, if they get in with a minority , I wont mind..
    As a province, were very much like a one-company town. A crappy-commodity producing one company town. We face a lot of the same risks.

    We’re selling a commodity that relies on volume to support the population base that has been encouraged to grow substantially just to support or live off the tickle down proceeds of extracting the energy resources. A population encouraged to grow when resource pricing is strong, but not encouraged to depart when prices collapse. Hence in a collapse we still have to support a boom time population. We also have to support an infrastructure built-out during a boom but now being paid off by the survivors staying for the bust.

    Those resources behave like any “commodity” and do tend towards price volatility and sometimes very low to negative margins some of the time and people anywhere on the globe are totally indifferent as to whether they buy our “Alberta Advantage” oil and gas or that of any number of nasty, oppressive, anti-freedom, anti-west, religious dictatorships or kingdoms.
    Last edited by KC; 07-05-2018 at 12:37 PM.

  75. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
    Oh yeah....Stats. That all encompassing final say on how the economy is doing lol.

    How were the stats acquired.

    Who acquired them.

    A little read

    http://www.canadianbusiness.com/blog...-mike-moffatt/
    What does a three year old article about job numbers in specific cities and months have to do with Tombe's article? Small snapshots in time and place can certainly be a bit wonky from time to time. But if you're inferring from that, that all statistics are not to be trusted, then I don't know what to tell you other than you'll have to tell us exactly what is wrong with the stats in Tombe's article.
    Why don't you tell us......

    Have you owned a Oil & Gas business for the last 25 years? Please....elaborate your experiences with me. And your bottom line with finances and taxes paid out to the province and Canadian Govt. And how much we have been hit in the last 2 years. Please explain to me and everyone else who has a vested interest in capital lost and employees families that have been abandoned by this so called new statistic that paints a damn rosy picture for us.

    Im waiting.....
    Are you also aware that a lot of folks were hit hard by the oil and gas sector was due to their fault? So many people in the trades were over cocky that they thought oil would never collapsed; so many went out and bought frivolous shiats because they made good incomes but didn't save any money for rainy days. I try to encourage many in and out of my trades that they need to save only to get laughed at... To give you an example, one guy went out and bought a 40k Harley Davidson only to have it parked in his garage without riding it for 5 years. Let's go low ball on interests that individual could have gained...5 years later had that 40k just sat in his bank, he would have 44k rather than having to sell his bike and other toys at a lost value to cover his mortgage. This not his only frivolous spending. This is common to so many that had great incomes from those good times. Let's not even talk about drug and alcohol addictions now because they thought money grew on trees. I had people that net over 10 a month having to ask to borrow money. Not everyone is like that, but I would say the majority we're. They did that to themselves.
    My gawd....you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Stop babbling. My gawd man, have some self respect lol. Your statement is absolutely embarrassing to say the least.

    Frustrating as hell that you said what you just did and actually want a rational response lol.
    Ctz-ed is on the mark in a number of areas. However young people moving into the province, knowing little of the true nature and volatility of our economy and so misreading a bubble as normal sustainable good times get set up for disaster by those trying to steal their wallets. Moreover, just making a life here makes timing everything. They have to make decisions and move on with their lives, so they pay bubble prices if necessary and then just pray to be able to ride out a collapse without loosing everything, breaking up with family, ending up on the streets, etc.


    The other thing about our economy is the O&G driven bubbles are great for those with direct investments and career ties to the sector but for many people the bubbles just raise their costs while their incomes fail to keep up.
    Last edited by KC; 07-05-2018 at 12:47 PM.

  76. #76

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    Or we'll just **** it away during the boom times and ***** and moan during the bad.

    Lather, rinse, repeat.


    Stop Praying For Another Oil Boom And Diversify Alberta's Economy
    Alberta's latest economic recession is over, but it will happen again (and again) without sustainable long-term solutions.


    Whether they're religious or not, every few years Albertans devotedly pray: "Please God, give us another oil boom, we promise not to p*** it away this time."


    In Alberta, non-renewable resource production — the majority of it oil — creates tens of thousands of jobs, fuels economic growth and injects billions of dollars into provincial and municipal governments' treasuries in the form of taxes and royalties. It is a dominant economic force, but it is also a stagnating force when it comes to long-term fiscal planning, commercialization of innovation and diversification of Alberta's economy.


    At every cyclical oil commodity price downturn, with the predictability of the Old Faithful geyser, Alberta's political and business leaders spur into action, initiating debates, studies and report-writing exercises aimed at diversifying the province's economy. But when everything is said and done, more usually is said than done

    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/thomas...ef=ca-homepage

  77. #77

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    Hey, maybe we need a tax to get us off oil and gas reliance. Maybe, say, a PST or a carbon tax?

    Then you save the royalties and use some of the dividends to support diversifying opportunities- but even when not, the royalty payments get invested and thus diversify the province anyway.

    By analogy if you’re a skilled technical worker, you know that you’d better save some of your income in a diversified portfolio because if you loose your job or ability to perform it, that portfolio will compensate for your personal economic dependency on your trade or skills.

    Actually a better analogy would be inheriting a warehouse stocked full of tools etc. You can take on the job of slowly selling off the total inventory and use the proceeds to live a good life, build a mansion, buy family big houses too, eat out and travel the world, etc. but eventually you’ll run out of inventory to sell or some of it will become largely obsolete. Then what?
    Last edited by KC; 10-05-2018 at 10:48 AM.

  78. #78

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    We could put the royalties into some sort of fund. Maybe call it The Heritage Fund. The we could use the proceeds from that and let the principle stay in the fund, continue to grow and make even more money from our investments.

    Nah, it would never work. Put the royalties into general revenue and let us live at the mercy of volatile world oil prices like god intended.

  79. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    We could put the royalties into some sort of fund. Maybe call it The Heritage Fund. The we could use the proceeds from that and let the principle stay in the fund, continue to grow and make even more money from our investments.

    Nah, it would never work. Put the royalties into general revenue and let us live at the mercy of volatile world oil prices like god intended.
    Yeah. Silly idea. We’re just a province so retaining anything from depleting our resources makes no sense. Best to deplete for fun - then run.

  80. #80

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    At least we got some RalphBuck$ for it, right? Right?

  81. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    At least we got some RalphBuck$ for it, right? Right?
    ...
    Peter Lougheed's Radical Legacy | The Tyee
    His supposed ardent admirers ignore his true gift to Canada: six principles for developing resources.

    2012

    As Canada’s inept Tory politicians now salute the remarkable achievements of Peter Lougheed, they tellingly omit his radical views on resource development.

    And that should come as no surprise. Unlike the current libertarian “strip it and ship it” crowd that governs most of the west, Lougheed stood for something different. He offered a farsighted vision that was both progressive and altogether conservative. Although everybody from Saskatchewan’s Brad Wall to Alberta’s Alison Redford now praise the famously competent premier, none walk his talk.

    Lougheed’s famous principles, which greatly influenced Norway’s take on oil development, strike at the core of Canadian life. Alberta’s own oil patch didn’t like him. Yet over the last few years the affable and charismatic statesman repeated his basic philosophy to the likes of Policy Options and this humble reporter.
    They should remain on the lips of every Canadian.

    1. Behave like an owner

    ...

    4. Add value

    Lougheed was never impressed by the convenient Canadian habit of exporting raw resources without adding value. In his reading of the nation’s history, Canada should have made clothing instead of exporting raw furs. He also recognized that the majority of jobs in most resource industries didn’t come from digging holes but from refining the raw stuff into something useful. As a consequence, he resolutely championed the upgrading and refining of bitumen into gasoline, diesel, jet fuel and petrochemicals. Unlike Redford, Hall and Harper, he opposed the Keystone XL pipeline as wholesale job exporter. He didn’t think that...”


    “I think we should be processing the bitumen from the Alberta oil sands within Alberta and creating the jobs east of Edmonton and in that area there,” he recently told Policy Options. “And I think that would be, from a political and from an economic point of view, the right public policy for Alberta.” A bold tax on exported bitumen still might get this economic ball rolling.

    5. Go slow

    Last but not least, Lougheed often lamented the speed of bitumen development in the province. His motto was “one project at a time.” Over the last decade libertarians rubber stamped more than 100 projects and the gold rush overwhelmed infrastructure, bloated wages, drove up house prices and generally inflated the cost of living. Why bother with a trade or an education when a petro job will garner you 10 times the income, asked Lougheed. Knowing that busts invariably follow booms, he viewed overheated growth in the tar sands as a great calamity. Real owners don’t overheat their economies or stress out their communities: they go slow.
    The architect of Norway’s oil development, ...”


    https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2012/09/1...eter-Lougheed/
    Bolding mine
    Last edited by KC; 11-05-2018 at 05:53 PM.

  82. #82

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    They should be printed on the front page of every newspaper in the province. But many Albertans are quite content to be Hewers of Wood and Drawers of Water (from The Fur Trade in Canada - 1930). Dig out the resource, any resource, and ship it out as cheap as possible. Forget about adding value. Don't upgrade the bitumen. Import dilutent and then pipe the whole kit and caboodle out of here at a fraction what what WTI goes for. Cut down the trees and shop the logs. Forget about sawmills. Let someone else turn them into something useful.

    And keep the economy at the mercy of the resource ups and downs.

  83. #83

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    No one reads newspapers anymore.

  84. #84
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    Wow, 700 new jobs last month, wow..

  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Wow, 700 new jobs last month, wow..
    Your thoughts on my thread:

    Eliminate the Corporate Income Tax

    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...ate-Income-Tax

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