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Thread: Are you boycotting BC?

  1. #201
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    Cherry point sees hundreds of tankers, the guy in the link should run for office!

    http://www.timescolonist.com/opinion...ket-1.20560368

  2. #202

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    Time for everyone to start boycotting Minnesota too!



    'There's a ton riding on this': Enbridge pipeline project dealt blow in Minnesota
    Judge's report could drive up costs of Line 3 from Alberta to Michigan


    Enbridge's oil pipeline was old, unreliable and prone to leaking. Its proposed replacement had federal approval in Canada and a presidential permit in the United States.


    That's why compared to the other oil export projects proposed from Alberta — TransCanada's Keystone XL and Kinder Morgan's Trans Mountain expansion — this pipeline was assumed to face far fewer hurdles.


    However, the oilpatch is witnessing how even a project considered straightforward still faces significant delays and a difficult regulatory process.


    And the real protests haven't even begun.


    "I would have thought Line 3 would have had the easier time moving forward," said Jennifer Rowland, a senior equity analyst with Edward Jones, based in St. Louis. "And yet, a line like that even faces so much opposition. It speaks to the mindset and attitude toward pipelines."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/enbr...ands-1.4632086

  3. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Time for everyone to start boycotting Minnesota too!



    'There's a ton riding on this': Enbridge pipeline project dealt blow in Minnesota
    Judge's report could drive up costs of Line 3 from Alberta to Michigan


    Enbridge's oil pipeline was old, unreliable and prone to leaking. Its proposed replacement had federal approval in Canada and a presidential permit in the United States.


    That's why compared to the other oil export projects proposed from Alberta — TransCanada's Keystone XL and Kinder Morgan's Trans Mountain expansion — this pipeline was assumed to face far fewer hurdles.


    However, the oilpatch is witnessing how even a project considered straightforward still faces significant delays and a difficult regulatory process.


    And the real protests haven't even begun.


    "I would have thought Line 3 would have had the easier time moving forward," said Jennifer Rowland, a senior equity analyst with Edward Jones, based in St. Louis. "And yet, a line like that even faces so much opposition. It speaks to the mindset and attitude toward pipelines."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/enbr...ands-1.4632086
    I’m on it. I will not vacation there this year.

  4. #204
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    Last time I was in Mini was about 20 years ago. I won't be going back anytime soon. Not because of the above KC but I've no reason to go there.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  5. #205
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    Minnesota has seen what's been going on here...

  6. #206

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    There is a big difference between the two pipelines. The Keystone is for American oil owned by American companies such as Surmont site. KM is for Canadian oil exporting out to BC.

    The most funny thing I see out of this whole demonstrations is that, how did they aall gather together? They drove vehicles using Oil products from Alberta; furthermore, i observed the clothing those protesters were wearing, and a lot of them wore synthetic clothing. Guest what what they're from? Oil products. The natives love to use the, "our traditional way of living." I'm OK with that as long as they give up their vehicles, skidoos, guns, shoes, and so forth. Their traditional ways of life were horses and spears for hunting. Canoes were made from animal skins etc. I'm sick and tired of hypocrites tha t goes against things, but they can't exemplified themselves with their so called convictions of morals . There is no clean oil period! When you suck oil out if the ground, you destroy the equation that has been established for the balance of earth. It is no different than math.
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  7. #207

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    From the story I linked to in #203

    Judge's report could drive up costs of Line 3 from Alberta to Michigan

  8. #208
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    The running 'joke' at our Kelowna conference.
    Last edited by IanO; 25-04-2018 at 07:47 PM.
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    The DBA has a Kelowna office?

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    It was a conference of many downtown associations...
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

  11. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    It was a conference of many downtown associations...
    Just to quibble, I think they are only known as “conferences” when they are held in places like Winnipeg and Edmonton, otherwise they are best known as: “junkets”.

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    no...boondoggles


    Unless it is a conference in Vegas...then Gong Show!
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

  13. #213

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    They’re all soirées - because that how the taxpayers feel as companies expense the trips and booze and golf and...

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    It was the Business Improvement Areas of BC/AB and essentially the entire NW. Inspiring talks, much learned and a lot of great ideas to bring back from the City of Kelowna.
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  15. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    It was the Business Improvement Areas of BC/AB and essentially the entire NW. Inspiring talks, much learned and a lot of great ideas to bring back from the City of Kelowna.


    Yeah, I have relatives in the Okanagan and it’s always so much nicer getting news directly from them rather than by phone.

  16. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    There is a big difference between the two pipelines. The Keystone is for American oil owned by American companies such as Surmont site. KM is for Canadian oil exporting out to BC.

    The most funny thing I see out of this whole demonstrations is that, how did they aall gather together? They drove vehicles using Oil products from Alberta; furthermore, i observed the clothing those protesters were wearing, and a lot of them wore synthetic clothing. Guest what what they're from? Oil products. The natives love to use the, "our traditional way of living." I'm OK with that as long as they give up their vehicles, skidoos, guns, shoes, and so forth. Their traditional ways of life were horses and spears for hunting. Canoes were made from animal skins etc. I'm sick and tired of hypocrites tha t goes against things, but they can't exemplified themselves with their so called convictions of morals . There is no clean oil period! When you suck oil out if the ground, you destroy the equation that has been established for the balance of earth. It is no different than math.
    To grossly generalize: First Nations (natives) aren’t anti-development and modernization. That’s a myth. They don’t want the life of 300 years ago. They want to be able to choose how they live. They want to be able to develop their lands just like anyone else, but have control over it and to earn the benefits from any development. No different than anyone else, such as farmers who don’t like oil companies, miners, utilities, etc destroying their land - especially without any proper compensation. Farmers that like the traditional farming life, such as growing their own food, hunting on the land, etc. still have computers, snow mobiles, etc. But they want to be able to pass on to future generations whole and sustainable land.

    As an aside, on the whole and sustainable idea, when Edmonton Power bought thousands of acres of land for the Genessee power plant it didn’t expropriate just the land it needed because they would have then have destroyed many farmers’ ability to run a farm. (If such expropriation had even been permitted.) So they bought bought out entire farms / sustainable economics units, then saved what they needed and put the resulting land packages back on the market. A number of industrial and other interests protested this method because it cost more money and so raised power rates for them. (But see how they whine at anything that might affect the long-term sustainability of their own businesses.)
    Last edited by KC; 26-04-2018 at 09:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    It was a conference of many downtown associations...

    My mistake!

  18. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    It was the Business Improvement Areas of BC/AB and essentially the entire NW. Inspiring talks, much learned and a lot of great ideas to bring back from the City of Kelowna.
    You mean the people that are trying to steal away Edmonton's downtown businesses? Did you discuss ways to sabotage the move of the lab?

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    I remember why I am disliking this forum more and more.
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  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    It was a conference of many downtown associations...
    Just to quibble, I think they are only known as “conferences” when they are held in places like Winnipeg and Edmonton, otherwise they are best known as: “junkets”.
    sorry, most of those conferences are actually that and - believe it or not - it's hard work attending them. or should be. and most attendees are mindful of that.

    wearing various hats, off the top of my head i have attended conferences and seminars in whistler, vancouver, banff, calgary, edmonton, winnipeg, toronto, quebec city, ottawa, helsinki, dallas/fort worth, vegas, portland, orlando, pittsburgh, boston, austin, palm springs, phoenix, new york... none of them were "junkets". the value isn't just in the formal session material being presented. the value is being able to spend time with peers from around the world discussing what works well or doesn't for them or for their jurisdictions. the value is in being able to "walk the streets" and see first hand what works well or doesn't. the value is being able to "tack-on" a few days before or after and visit neighboring jurisdictions with the same goals either on your own or with a sub-group.

    the value is being able to expand my own parochial interests and viewpoints to include different perspectives and different parameters and different objectives. and that value proposition applies equally for the companies and/or organizations and/or neighborhoods and communities i work for, volunteer for and live in.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  21. #221
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    And how do we know if many of these protestors occupying outside the KM site are not paid protestors?
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  22. #222

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    Well that's one way to say that the oil sands aren't affecting the environment. Maybe Alberta should lobby to get tanker traffic and maritime oil spills exempted too. You can't raise environmental objections if the project isn't covered by environmental regulations.

    Selected oilsands projects may avoid new environmental assessment rules


    Oilsands projects that use steam to release bitumen from deep underground will likely get a pass from new federal environmental assessment rules — but Ottawa is still considering how to deal with those that use solvents instead of water.


    Environment Minister Catherine McKenna introduced the new Impact Assessment Act in February in hopes of giving more credibility to the federal environment review process. It sets new timelines for reviews, eases restrictions on participants, adds transparency to the science behind decisions and requires assessments to account for social, health, economic and climate change impacts.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/oil-...ules-1.4639525

  23. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    It was a conference of many downtown associations...
    Just to quibble, I think they are only known as “conferences” when they are held in places like Winnipeg and Edmonton, otherwise they are best known as: “junkets”.
    sorry, most of those conferences are actually that and - believe it or not - it's hard work attending them. or should be. and most attendees are mindful of that.

    wearing various hats, off the top of my head i have attended conferences and seminars in whistler, vancouver, banff, calgary, edmonton, winnipeg, toronto, quebec city, ottawa, helsinki, dallas/fort worth, vegas, portland, orlando, pittsburgh, boston, austin, palm springs, phoenix, new york... none of them were "junkets". the value isn't just in the formal session material being presented. the value is being able to spend time with peers from around the world discussing what works well or doesn't for them or for their jurisdictions. the value is in being able to "walk the streets" and see first hand what works well or doesn't. the value is being able to "tack-on" a few days before or after and visit neighboring jurisdictions with the same goals either on your own or with a sub-group.

    the value is being able to expand my own parochial interests and viewpoints to include different perspectives and different parameters and different objectives. and that value proposition applies equally for the companies and/or organizations and/or neighborhoods and communities i work for, volunteer for and live in.
    I agree that a there a a lot of random benefits and intangibles that come with such conferences but I’m not so sure taxpayers should allow companies to expense most conferences. We have great phone and internet service these days.

  24. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Well that's one way to say that the oil sands aren't affecting the environment. Maybe Alberta should lobby to get tanker traffic and maritime oil spills exempted too. You can't raise environmental objections if the project isn't covered by environmental regulations.

    Selected oilsands projects may avoid new environmental assessment rules


    Oilsands projects that use steam to release bitumen from deep underground will likely get a pass from new federal environmental assessment rules — but Ottawa is still considering how to deal with those that use solvents instead of water. Steam is pretty clean.

    The source if the water should be a concern and knbsome situations what the pressure and evacuation of volume a depth might do to the geological state of the area.


    Environment Minister Catherine McKenna introduced the new Impact Assessment Act in February in hopes of giving more credibility to the federal environment review process. It sets new timelines for reviews, eases restrictions on participants, adds transparency to the science behind decisions and requires assessments to account for social, health, economic and climate change impacts.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/oil-...ules-1.4639525
    Well, farmers don’t have to prepare 100,000 page EIAs for each water well they drill.
    Last edited by KC; 28-04-2018 at 07:15 AM.

  25. #225
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    Holy Sh-t

    https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...cid=spartandhp

    I'm sure all the ego's on this thread are going to come out.
    Last edited by envaneo; 05-05-2018 at 02:37 PM.
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  26. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Holy Sh-t

    https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...cid=spartandhp

    I'm sure all the ego's on this thread are going to come out.
    ?

    Will it carry bitumen?

    Otherwise it’s just another possible pipeline that would face less opposition than a bitumen line. Bitumen is the problem, not upgraded oil.

  27. #227
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    Its diluent, and KM has been sending this through pipelines for over 25 years. Its not much difference.

    The main issue for Trans mountain is tanker traffic.
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  28. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    There is a big difference between the two pipelines. The Keystone is for American oil owned by American companies such as Surmont site. KM is for Canadian oil exporting out to BC.

    The most funny thing I see out of this whole demonstrations is that, how did they aall gather together? They drove vehicles using Oil products from Alberta; furthermore, i observed the clothing those protesters were wearing, and a lot of them wore synthetic clothing. Guest what what they're from? Oil products. The natives love to use the, "our traditional way of living." I'm OK with that as long as they give up their vehicles, skidoos, guns, shoes, and so forth. Their traditional ways of life were horses and spears for hunting. Canoes were made from animal skins etc. I'm sick and tired of hypocrites tha t goes against things, but they can't exemplified themselves with their so called convictions of morals . There is no clean oil period! When you suck oil out if the ground, you destroy the equation that has been established for the balance of earth. It is no different than math.
    To grossly generalize: First Nations (natives) aren’t anti-development and modernization. That’s a myth. They don’t want the life of 300 years ago. They want to be able to choose how they live. They want to be able to develop their lands just like anyone else, but have control over it and to earn the benefits from any development. No different than anyone else, such as farmers who don’t like oil companies, miners, utilities, etc destroying their land - especially without any proper compensation. Farmers that like the traditional farming life, such as growing their own food, hunting on the land, etc. still have computers, snow mobiles, etc. But they want to be able to pass on to future generations whole and sustainable land.

    As an aside, on the whole and sustainable idea, when Edmonton Power bought thousands of acres of land for the Genessee power plant it didn’t expropriate just the land it needed because they would have then have destroyed many farmers’ ability to run a farm. (If such expropriation had even been permitted.) So they bought bought out entire farms / sustainable economics units, then saved what they needed and put the resulting land packages back on the market. A number of industrial and other interests protested this method because it cost more money and so raised power rates for them. (But see how they whine at anything that might affect the long-term sustainability of their own businesses.)
    That sounds reasonable and state it as is. Traditional ways of life don't tell me that.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  29. #229

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    And this (whale death by plastic bag, Thailand article below) is just one high profile event that just happened to be noticed. Basically coastal cities and shipping companies need to start cleaning up their act. The fact that our costal cities, like Victoria, are only now addressing their sewage issues while Edmonton been doing it for what, half a century or more, is hard to believe. And they get labelled as “green”. People everywhere are getting all worried about long term global warming to the exclusion of all the other immediate environmental disasters.


    Whale that died off Thailand had eaten 80 plastic bags


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44344468






    Groups question why plastic bag spill wasn't reported to public immediately | CTV Vancouver Island News
    CTV Vancouver Island
    Published Monday, November 20, 2017

    “CTV News first reported Friday on a leaked Parks Canada memo that detailed the discovery of about 2,000 large aquaculture feed bags on the Broken Group of Islands, a protected area of the Pacific Rim National Park Reserve.

    According to the memo, the bags were found on Nov. 10 on four of the islands – but environmentalists, First Nations and even Courtenay-Alberni NDP MP Gord Johns found out about it through media coverage Friday. ...

    Johns has called upon the federal government to act immediately to clean up the spill, and has tabled a bill calling for a national strategy surrounding marine pollution.



    https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/g...tely-1.3686768


    Meanwhile in national news - a 100 litre spill !!!!


    B.C. ministry of environment confirms 100-litre spill at Trans Mountain pipeline station
    BY POSTMEDIA NEWS
    ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED: MAY 28, 2018

    http://calgaryherald.com/business/en...rfield-station

    Last edited by KC; 02-06-2018 at 01:21 PM.

  30. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    ...
    Meanwhile in national news - a 100 litre spill !!!!
    haha - I put more in my truck every fill-up

  31. #231
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    I know. Like half a barrel.

  32. #232

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    Starting this coming Friday my wife and I are going on vacation in BC.

    Yes, those of you pushing for boycotts can go straight to hell and stay there.

  33. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Starting this coming Friday my wife and I are going on vacation in BC.

    Yes, those of you pushing for boycotts can go straight to hell and stay there.
    Yes sir, dork face. I hope you and your bull shet stay there too.

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Starting this coming Friday my wife and I are going on vacation in BC.

    Yes, those of you pushing for boycotts can go straight to hell and stay there.
    What an odd hostile thing to say....you live in Edmonton? If so, you're better off staying in BC with the other tree huggers to **** off and die there

  35. #235

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    I have to laugh.

    In my first post, I deliberately mentioned no one specifically, did not say where in BC we were planning to go, and stated nothing demeaning to our holy Oil Interests. The aggressive Alberta patriots certainly did not take long to come out, and I have to say the sophisticated wit of the first post against me, and the un-hostile amiability of the second, are simply breathtaking.

    In truth, as others have pointed out, boycotts ignore political complexities, attack the wrong targets, are of doubtful economic utility, and produce nothing positive in the long political run.

  36. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Starting this coming Friday my wife and I are going on vacation in BC.

    Yes, those of you pushing for boycotts can go straight to hell and stay there.
    You’re not exactly a believer in tolerance are you.

    Or clarity of thought for that matter.


    Boycotts Are Hypocritical, Discriminatory, and Bad for Social Change - Hit & Run : Reason.com

    “But it’s not just that this boycott is hypocritical. Most boycotts are hypocritical—because boycotters are incapable of...”

    “...I hold that everyone has a legal right to discriminate against, or organize a boycott of, an entity they don’t like. ...”

    https://reason.com/blog/2015/03/27/b...discriminatory
    Last edited by KC; 02-06-2018 at 09:39 PM.

  37. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC
    You’re not exactly a believer in tolerance are you.

    Or clarity of thought for that matter.
    ^Another patriot clearly following the train of his thought.

    See my second post. You can read, right, and not just link to what others have written? I hope I'm not wrong in giving you at least that much credit.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 02-06-2018 at 09:42 PM.

  38. #238

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    I don’t need any credit from you so don’t worry about giving me any.

  39. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC
    I don’t need any credit from you so don’t worry about giving me any.


    My, my, our resident intellectual is being testy.

    Don't refuse credit from others. You might need it some day.

    Besides, C2E requires due credit. Q.v. the settled arguments over improperly credited photography, for example.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 02-06-2018 at 09:46 PM.

  40. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC
    I don’t need any credit from you so don’t worry about giving me any.


    My, my, our resident intellectual is being testy.

    Don't refuse credit from others. You might need it some day.

    Besides, C2E requires due credit. Q.v. the settled arguments over improperly credited photography, for example.
    Not at all testy. I do not need to be in your good graces regarding my comments.

  41. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Not at all testy. I do not need to be in your good graces regarding my comments.
    I love you too. Won't you be my friend?

  42. #242
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    I’m boycotting BC. Stopped shopping at Save On. No more Earls. Any company based in BC isn’t getting my business. And of course no trips west for me. Too many other interesting places to visit.

  43. #243

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    Telus? Lionsgate (TV and film)? Best Buy Canada? London Drugs? HSBC Bank? MacDonald, Dettwiler and Associates Ltd.? Premium Brands holdings (https://www.premiumbrandsholdings.com/)? Kal Tire? 7-Eleven Canada? Ritchie Bros. Auctioneers? Imperial Parking Corp.?

    Just a few of the better known firms from the BC top 100 list.

  44. #244

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    I am boycotting BC


    Sticking with AD on my calendar...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  45. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Telus? Lionsgate (TV and film)? Best Buy Canada? London Drugs? HSBC Bank? MacDonald, Dettwiler and Associates Ltd.? Premium Brands holdings (https://www.premiumbrandsholdings.com/)? Kal Tire? 7-Eleven Canada? Ritchie Bros. Auctioneers? Imperial Parking Corp.?

    Just a few of the better known firms from the BC top 100 list.
    Don't forget all the places that use GFS for food delivery, groceries in the store that came in a Kenworth or used Versacold for transport, or Super Save for their garbage/recycle disposal. A host of other products made by Univar, and other companies.

  46. #246

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    I'm not boycotting BC at all. Heading to Whistler in July.

  47. #247
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    Why boycott BC? The pipeline is now guaranteed to go ahead, isn't it?
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  48. #248

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    I won't travel there until Horgan is gone.

  49. #249
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    With groups and individuals receiving money along the pipeline maybe big oil could just cut the goof a cheque to disappear.

  50. #250

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Why boycott BC? The pipeline is now guaranteed to go ahead, isn't it?


    It’s going to be interesting. It may just take one First Nation to stop it.

    I’m no expert but I’d say it’s questionable that the crown even has a valid right to enforce any of its powers over some First Nation lands. If they neither signed a treaty nor ceded land, what does that mean?



    Horgan's acknowledgment of unceded Indigenous territory a milestone for B.C. - The Globe and Mail

    “...

    That unique status – a province mostly built on territories that were never ceded through treaty, war or surrender by the original inhabitants – goes back more than 150 years. As a result, uncertainty has dogged economic development in the province, while the courts have been increasingly firm that the Crown in B.C. does not have clear title to the land and its resources.

    In the rush to establish the colony of British Columbia, governor James Douglas skipped over the stage of negotiating treaties. In 1859, he issued a proclamation that declared all the lands and resources in British Columbia belong to the Crown. At that time, the colony had about 1,000 Europeans and an estimated 30,000 Indigenous people.

    It was not until 2014 that the Supreme Court of Canada, in the Tsilhqot'in decision, ruled that Indigenous Canadians still own their ancestral lands unless they signed away their ownership in treaties with government. The province fought the Tsilhqot'in Nation, a small community of 400 people in the remote Nemaiah Valley west of Williams Lake, every inch of the way in the courts, but was finally forced to accept that aboriginal title exists.”

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle36686705/
    Last edited by KC; 06-06-2018 at 02:50 PM.

  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Why boycott BC? The pipeline is now guaranteed to go ahead, isn't it?


    It’s going to be interesting. It may just take one First Nation to stop it.

    I’m no expert but I’d say it’s questionable that the crown even has a valid right to enforce any of its powers over some First Nation lands. If they neither signed a treaty nor ceded land, what does that mean?
    Why wasnt that all worked out, before we paid for the pipeline?

  52. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Why boycott BC? The pipeline is now guaranteed to go ahead, isn't it?


    It’s going to be interesting. It may just take one First Nation to stop it.

    I’m no expert but I’d say it’s questionable that the crown even has a valid right to enforce any of its powers over some First Nation lands. If they neither signed a treaty nor ceded land, what does that mean?
    Why wasnt that all worked out, before we paid for the pipeline?
    Yes, why wasn’t it worked out, before we developed BC?

    Same thing here in Alberta. First Nations lands have been exploited without a clear understanding of the right to even do so. My uneducated guess is that there’s a whole lot of issues around treaties that the government doesn’t really want to have the Supreme Court rule on.

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Why boycott BC? The pipeline is now guaranteed to go ahead, isn't it?


    It’s going to be interesting. It may just take one First Nation to stop it.

    I’m no expert but I’d say it’s questionable that the crown even has a valid right to enforce any of its powers over some First Nation lands. If they neither signed a treaty nor ceded land, what does that mean?
    Why wasnt that all worked out, before we paid for the pipeline?
    Yes, why wasn’t it worked out, before we developed BC?

    Same thing here in Alberta. First Nations lands have been exploited without a clear understanding of the right to even do so. My uneducated guess is that there’s a whole lot of issues around treaties that the government doesn’t really want to have the Supreme Court rule on.
    Jt said last night, that there are 43 bands, that rely on this pipeline. What about the trucks bringing fuel over and over from the US to bc's airport.What about the pipeline they are building, any protesters there, its near the Fraser river??????

  54. #254
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    No bitumen, no tankers I guess.

  55. #255

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    Trans Mountain expansion halted as appeals court quashes Ottawa’s approval

    The Federal Court of Appeal has quashed the federal government’s approval of the Trans Mountain expansion project, sending it back to the National Energy Board for further environmental assessment.

    In a unanimous decision released Thursday, the three-member panel said the Liberal government failed to adequately consult First Nations whose rights are impacted by the pipeline expansion, while the National Energy Board failed to properly consider increased tanker traffic that would result.

    ...
    Source: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...ain-expansion/ (Sorry about the paywall)

    Maybe we can recognize now that the "rule of law" involves due process rather than just rubber-stamp approvals.

  56. #256
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    I pity the younger generations of Canadians. Total government debt is well over a $Trillion and activists are strangling our economy. I will retire in the not too distant future, I'm set and my kids will be fine but the majority of millennials will be screwed. Interest rates will inevitably rise and debt payments will consume much more of our countries revenues as our economic prospects evaporate. "Progressives" brought this on themselves and will reap the rewards. They truly deserve it.
    I will sincerely enjoy watching the disaster from whatever beach I retire to.

  57. #257
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    Whilst the natives and Quebec keep bending us over and giving it to us.

  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    I pity the younger generations of Canadians. Total government debt is well over a $Trillion and activists are strangling our economy. I will retire in the not too distant future, I'm set and my kids will be fine but the majority of millennials will be screwed. Interest rates will inevitably rise and debt payments will consume much more of our countries revenues as our economic prospects evaporate. "Progressives" brought this on themselves and will reap the rewards. They truly deserve it.
    I will sincerely enjoy watching the disaster from whatever beach I retire to.
    I hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of our debt in the past 40 years whether measured by % of GDP or in absolute figures (% of GDP being the far more useful measure), was accumulated under PC or C governments, not Liberal ones. Even including the last couple years of Trudeau's deficits, the Liberal's record over the past 40 years would actually be a very large decrease in the debt to GDP ratio. These are statistical facts (sorry, the best chart only goes to 2010, but you can find more recent numbers elsewhere that don't really change anything):



    Source: https://nationalpostcom.files.wordpr...011/03/gdp.jpg

    As far as "strangling our economy" goes, that's odd you feel that way, given that Canada's growth rates have been pretty steady over the last couple decades, with the exception of a couple recessions. By what metric exactly are you measuring this strangulation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones
    Whilst the natives and Quebec keep bending us over and giving it to us.


    Yeah, those natives have it so easy, what with all the dying 10-15 years earlier than the rest of the country and such.

    Give your head a shake.

  59. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Whilst the natives and Quebec keep bending us over and giving it to us.
    “us”? Please explain? Who’s “us”?

    BTW, my family background includes pioneers/settlers acquiring farm and other land in western Canada, houses on lots in towns and cities, other real estate and so on. All of which could be protected and/or sold or passed on to future generations. The individualized benefits of european style property rights ownership rules were thus confered on immigrants and Canadians moving westward from the east or eastward from the west.

    Of the hundreds of thousands of property buyers I doubt many questioned the seller’s right to sell that land to them.




    An Unsettling Prairie History: A Review of James Daschuk’s Clearing the Plains – ActiveHistory.ca


    “The loss of life was immense, James Daschuk recounts in Clearing the Plains: Disease, Politics of Starvation, and the Loss of Aboriginal Life, and amounted to a “state-sponsored attack on indigenous communities” whose effects “haunt us as a nation still” (186)....”


    “...Although Cree leaders had succeeded in convincing the crown’s representative to include clauses covering medical aid and famine relief in Treaty 6, when they sought assistance the Dominion, with little infrastructure in the west initially, was ill-equipped to fulfill its treaty obligations.

    At the depth of the famine, emaciated First Nations arrived at forts and settlements begging for food. Frequently, the official response was not to provide emergency food, but to construct stockades around ration houses. There were, however, relatively few incidents of law-breaking or poaching of cattle in response to the crisis. Many of those seeking relief were willing to work for rations, but the Department of Indian Affairs (DIA) didn’t have enough work to go around.

    Daschuk points to the election of the Conservatives in the fall of 1878 as a turning point when the “[m]anagement of the famine took on a more sinister character” (184). An ever-tightening budget at the DIA meant staff cuts, including medical staff who’d proven effective in vaccinating against smallpox, and orders that the file be managed “as economically as possible” (122). When the Opposition still complained about the budget, Macdonald promised that emergency rations would be refused “until the Indians were on the verge of starvation, to reduce the expense” (134). Available food rotted in government storehouses as malnutrition, sickness, and death ravaged the reserve population.

    With the government also neglecting the agricultural assistance promised by treaty, there was no alternative source of food on reserves. Furthermore...”


    http://activehistory.ca/2013/12/an-u...ng-the-plains/

    Last edited by KC; 30-08-2018 at 03:23 PM.

  60. #260

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    I pity the younger generations of Canadians. Total government debt is well over a $Trillion and activists are strangling our economy. I will retire in the not too distant future, I'm set and my kids will be fine but the majority of millennials will be screwed. Interest rates will inevitably rise and debt payments will consume much more of our countries revenues as our economic prospects evaporate. "Progressives" brought this on themselves and will reap the rewards. They truly deserve it.
    I will sincerely enjoy watching the disaster from whatever beach I retire to.
    And I always wonder if the PM and other people at the top ever think about the country they're leaving behind for their kids, grandkids and great-grandkids. Although to be honest, the ones at the forefront, Trudeau, Morneau etc are very well off and their money will trickle down to the heirs. But don't the rest of the Liberals in the house who aren't so well off think of who they're following and what their descendants will have to live with? Talk about selling your first-born...

  61. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    I pity the younger generations of Canadians. Total government debt is well over a $Trillion and activists are strangling our economy. I will retire in the not too distant future, I'm set and my kids will be fine but the majority of millennials will be screwed. Interest rates will inevitably rise and debt payments will consume much more of our countries revenues as our economic prospects evaporate. "Progressives" brought this on themselves and will reap the rewards. They truly deserve it.
    I will sincerely enjoy watching the disaster from whatever beach I retire to.
    People love debt. Every generation loves it more than the last.

  62. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    I pity the younger generations of Canadians. Total government debt is well over a $Trillion and activists are strangling our economy. I will retire in the not too distant future, I'm set and my kids will be fine but the majority of millennials will be screwed. Interest rates will inevitably rise and debt payments will consume much more of our countries revenues as our economic prospects evaporate. "Progressives" brought this on themselves and will reap the rewards. They truly deserve it.
    I will sincerely enjoy watching the disaster from whatever beach I retire to.
    And I always wonder if the PM and other people at the top ever think about the country they're leaving behind for their kids, grandkids and great-grandkids. Although to be honest, the ones at the forefront, Trudeau, Morneau etc are very well off and their money will trickle down to the heirs. But don't the rest of the Liberals in the house who aren't so well off think of who they're following and what their descendants will have to live with? Talk about selling your first-born...
    You both talk as though the so called conservative parties don’t love debt and deficits.

    If you own a home did you take out a mortgage to buy it?

  63. #263

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    I pity the younger generations of Canadians. Total government debt is well over a $Trillion and activists are strangling our economy. I will retire in the not too distant future, I'm set and my kids will be fine but the majority of millennials will be screwed. Interest rates will inevitably rise and debt payments will consume much more of our countries revenues as our economic prospects evaporate. "Progressives" brought this on themselves and will reap the rewards. They truly deserve it.
    I will sincerely enjoy watching the disaster from whatever beach I retire to.
    And I always wonder if the PM and other people at the top ever think about the country they're leaving behind for their kids, grandkids and great-grandkids. Although to be honest, the ones at the forefront, Trudeau, Morneau etc are very well off and their money will trickle down to the heirs. But don't the rest of the Liberals in the house who aren't so well off think of who they're following and what their descendants will have to live with? Talk about selling your first-born...
    You both talk as though the so called conservative parties don’t love debt and deficits.

    If you own a home did you take out a mortgage to buy it?
    Manageable debt, responsible spending and living with your means. Nothing wrong with that. I can retire with pension at 46 and should be completely debt-free around then too. It's not hard to spend wisely and still have all that you need. And no, not "living poor". Nice house built in 2010, 2 new vehicles, and we're traveled the world. No we're not each making 6 figures either... You say people love debt, well I'm not one of them, and I don't know anybody who does.

  64. #264

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    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    I pity the younger generations of Canadians. Total government debt is well over a $Trillion and activists are strangling our economy. I will retire in the not too distant future, I'm set and my kids will be fine but the majority of millennials will be screwed. Interest rates will inevitably rise and debt payments will consume much more of our countries revenues as our economic prospects evaporate. "Progressives" brought this on themselves and will reap the rewards. They truly deserve it.
    I will sincerely enjoy watching the disaster from whatever beach I retire to.
    And I always wonder if the PM and other people at the top ever think about the country they're leaving behind for their kids, grandkids and great-grandkids. Although to be honest, the ones at the forefront, Trudeau, Morneau etc are very well off and their money will trickle down to the heirs. But don't the rest of the Liberals in the house who aren't so well off think of who they're following and what their descendants will have to live with? Talk about selling your first-born...
    You both talk as though the so called conservative parties don’t love debt and deficits.

    If you own a home did you take out a mortgage to buy it?
    Manageable debt, responsible spending and living with your means. Nothing wrong with that. I can retire with pension at 46 and should be completely debt-free around then too. It's not hard to spend wisely and still have all that you need. And no, not "living poor". Nice house built in 2010, 2 new vehicles, and we're traveled the world. No we're not each making 6 figures either... You say people love debt, well I'm not one of them, and I don't know anybody who does.
    In terms of the Alberta provincial government, please provide the corresponding numbers:

    “Manageable debt, responsible spending and living with your means.”
    Last edited by KC; 30-08-2018 at 09:06 PM.

  65. #265

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    The thing is that the relationship with aboriginals is founded not on conquest, but on treaty-making -- and more importantly the breaking of those treaties, in terrible ways, in the past.

    The terrible and crystal-clear fact is that early settlers and their government out-trumped Trump. How, you ask? In the simplest and straightest way Trump works: by giving the people and nations he deals with ZERO respect. All treaty-breaking started from this fact. Some of the total disrespect continues today, as some of the posts above show so eloquently.

    Today's court decision is an uncomfortable one to be sure, but it is based on a literal reading of the treaty obligations and on the first-nations clause in the constitution.

    Those who have a problem with that should reflect -- and if they decide they are not willing to honour these obligations as part of Canadian society, the ONLY honourable thing for them is to leave this society.

    The choice is yours.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 30-08-2018 at 07:38 PM.

  66. #266
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    It’s just that deals were made regarding the pipeline with native bands in the interior of B.C. (money) but not with the coastal natives which have yet to be given their negotiations. (money)

  67. #267

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    Alberta oil resources alone may have been worth a couple trillion dollars. Then there’s gas, forestry, agricultural land, etc. The treaties passed incredible value to the colonial power in exchange for very very little. I’m always rather flabbergasted that people begrudge payments and support to the many little indigenous groups considering the massive benefit received and constantly dolled out to subsidize wonderful standards of living to the rest of thd population plus its ever growing numbers (beneficiaries) through generous immigration numbers. It’s astounding because our whole view of the rights of the individual, especially the right to property. (So in some sense land is seized from its original owners and then the subsequent owners/occupiers demand full respect of property rights for themselves.)

  68. #268

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    The ruling today really does reinforce a few basic facts about Canada:

    * it occupies land the natives largely consented to share with the explorers, traders, and settlers.

    * there is no single first nation, but a huge number of first nations whose quarrels and distrust go back way before the government of British North America was in any was established or devolved. Thus, for example, the Salish do not want the pipeline, while the Shushwap do. (Read David Thompson's narratives to get some faint understanding of internal politics among the tribes on either side of the continental divide.)

    * where the natives did not sign formal treaties, they largely got out of the way of the settlers, on the basic understanding that their livelihood would not be infringed upon. Read George Grant's account of the initial CPR survey.

    * actually the natives have every single moral right to make their demands today, for until the settlers arrived and pushed them aside, they were extremely friendly and HELPFUL to the previous traders, explorers, and missionaries. This is not the American experience, of course, but Canada is America North OUTside the USA, period, by definition, at every single critical juncture of its history, no matter how many trips to Vegas you take or how much Yankee constitutional nonsense you spout. Read every single first hand account published prior to the North-West Rebellion -- basically without exception.

    Yes, the constituted society in Canada (you, me, all of us, and our government, which is as democratically responsible as it gets, all your belchy grumbling notwithstanding) will have to come to some sort of agreement with the Salish and a few others. This is as it should be. Dulce et decorum est.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 30-08-2018 at 10:03 PM.

  69. #269

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    The ruling today really does reinforce a few basic facts about Canada:

    * it occupies land the natives largely consented to share with the explorers, traders, and settlers.

    * there is no single first nation, but a huge number of first nations whose quarrels and distrust go back way before the government of British North America was in any was established or devolved. Thus, for example, the Salish do not want the pipeline, while the Shushwap do. (Read David Thompson's narratives to get some faint understanding of internal politics among the tribes on either side of the continental divide.)

    * where the natives did not sign formal treaties, they largely got out of the way of the settlers, on the basic understanding that their livelihood would not be infringed upon. Read George Grant's account of the initial CPR survey.

    * actually the natives have every single moral right to make their demands today, for until the settlers arrived and pushed them aside, they were extremely friendly and HELPFUL to the previous traders, explorers, and missionaries. This is not the American experience, of course, but Canada is America North OUTside the USA, period, by definition, at every single critical juncture of its history, no matter how many trips to Vegas you take or how much Yankee constitutional nonsense you spout. Read every single first hand account published prior to the North-West Rebellion -- basically without exception.

    Yes, the constituted society in Canada (you, me, all of us, and our government, which is as democratically responsible as it gets, all your belchy grumbling notwithstanding) will have to come to some sort of agreement with the Salish and a few others. This is as it should be. Dulce et decorum est.
    Looking at the timeline is important to understand the context and subsequent colonialism of the times. Small pox preceded much of the european settler advance. The slaughtering of bison was something totally different than plague.



    I have this paper, title below - fascinating. (Will look for a link)

    Viewpoints and Visions in 1792: The Vancouver Expedition encounters Indians of Western Washington
    Columbia Magazine, Summer 1990: Vol. 4, No. 2
    By Delbert J. McBride

    “...
    A popular concept of the late eighteenth century was that of the "noble savage." This was conceived, however, by stay-at-home philosophers in their cozy, book-lined studies rather than by the more rough- and-ready types actually out in the field exploring, mapping, bartering with Native people they encountered, occasionally fending off sudden, unpredictable hostile attacks or becoming sacrificial victims of clashes between divergent cultures. This happened to Captain James Cook, Vancouver's commanding officer on an earlier expedition in Hawaii. A few years before, in 1775, ...

    ...”
    Those westward-bound land-hungry Americans who began arriving in the 1840s did not initially fare as well as the "King George" men who maintained consistent policies not in conflict with the strong Native belief that the earth could belong to no individual and must be conserved far into the future.

    Some contemporary scholars have wryly commented that only anthropologists and children (of various ages) retain an interest in American Indians, and that serious historians neglected or skimmed over this extensive subject. Others have deplored the role of Natives as only bit players in the historical drama of Euro-American culture, this perhaps enforced by early accounts which tended to treat the indigenous population as merely another feature of the wilderness landscape, along with terrain, weather and wild beasts.”...

    ...

    The journals mention men with pockmarked faces. Possible evidence was also found of a smallpox or measles epidemic near Discovery Bay: "We found a deserted village capable of containing an hundred inhabitants. The houses were built after the Nootka fashion, but did not seem to have lately been the residence of Indians. The habitations had now fallen into decay, their inside, as well as a small surrounding space that appeared to have been formerly occupied, were over-run with weeds, amongst which were found several human skulls and other bones, promiscuously scattered about." “

    ...


    “Some historians conclude that Indian vices were fewer than those of white people of that day. In spite of a naturally abundant environment, a combination of gluttony, waste and careless improvidence sometimes led to periods of temporary famine. Another vice, as seen by whites, was gambling, the passion for which led to almost unbelievable sacrifices.

    Cannibalism of even the token kind was considered almost non-existent, and some tribes expressed abhorrence of the practice. Some Indians made fun of white men for eating dog and horse meat, and certain of the fish-eating coastal tribes even placed venison in the same derogatory status. Intoxicants were unknown until introduced by whites, and were at first resisted as shameful and downright disgraceful, causing the drinker to lose control of his spirit power.



    ...


    http://www.washingtonhistory.org/fil...isions_001.pdf





    Here is what Sir John A. Macdonald did to Indigenous people



    Tristin Hopper, August 28, 2018


    “...

    Robert Jefferson was a teacher in the Battleford area at the height of Macdonald’s policies in the west, and came away with a much more cynical view of what Ottawa had in store for the plains.

    “It was not intended that the Indian should become self-supporting,” he wrote. “He was only to be kept quiet till the country filled up when his ill will could be ignored.”

    Beginning in earnest shortly after Macdonald’s death, hundreds of thousands of European settlers poured into the prairies. Aside from the occasional arrowhead turned up under their ploughs, they had little knowledge of what Canada had done to prepare the lands for settlement.

    As Jefferson predicted, the plight of Canada’s Indigenous virtually disappeared from history books, political discourse and the general Canadian consciousness.



    https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...igenous-people



    Last edited by KC; 31-08-2018 at 01:56 AM.

  70. #270
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    Most First Nations have been supportive of the Trans-Mountain Pipeline. I believe the coastal First Nations have the most issues.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  71. #271
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    The engineers in Nisku better get to work on a 747 oil tanker, it may be the only way we’ll get this stuff out of here. lol

  72. #272

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    I think it's time for Alberta to stop contributing towards equalization payments to the rest of the country.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  73. #273

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    And cue the whiners. Their way or the highway.

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    I think it's time for Alberta to stop contributing towards equalization payments to the rest of the country.
    Totally agree. Eventually separation is bound to come up as Canada prevents us from exporting product while they import product by tanker for their own use. We could be Norway if we were independent with a port. But..... Well maybe as an independent we could share a port in Texas with friendly southerners 🤠🤷🏼*♂️.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 31-08-2018 at 12:24 AM.

  75. #275

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    I think it's time for Alberta to stop contributing towards equalization payments to the rest of the country.
    Totally agree. Eventually separation is bound to come up as Canada prevents us from exporting product while they import product by tanker for their own use. We could be Norway if we were independent with a port. But..... Well maybe as an independent we could share a port in Texas with friendly southerners ������*♂️.
    How exactly would we do this (stop contributing)?

  76. #276
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    I can't believe some of the ignorance about this topic on this thread. Alberta's equalization payments help all Provinces, including Alberta. Get a grip people, yeash

    The Federal Government is not without options in the case of TMP. If worse comes to worse, Alberta could always halt oil/bitumen to BC like the AG had once entertained that notion before. That's a last resort of course but an option.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  77. #277

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    Canada is supposed to be a country. The ports are for everyone to use east and west. Alberta pays a lot towards equalization and are getting little back in return. Leave any lines related to equalization payments on accounting sheets blank until further notice.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  78. #278

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    There are no lines related to equalization. Alberta doesn't send anything to Ottawa for equalization. It's all paid for from personal income tax. Try paying less tax than you're owed and you'll simply be charged with tax evasion.

  79. #279

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    Would the indian-bashers, quebec-haters, ottawa-deniers, and alberta-patriots mind telling us what exactly their gripe with Ottawa is?

    Ottawa has done all in its power to make sure construction of your favourite pipeline proceeds. It's the COURTS, not the government, that have identified the basic problem.

    Or would you rather the sock-puppet selfie-troll man-child you love so much simply stuff the courts with his appointments, to get his way? Which also happens to be YOUR way?

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    AShetson, do you actually live in Alberta? You’re always against us. You’re one weird duck. Lol

  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    There are no lines related to equalization. Alberta doesn't send anything to Ottawa for equalization. It's all paid for from personal income tax. Try paying less tax than you're owed and you'll simply be charged with tax evasion.
    They’ll be collecting a lot less with workers getting laid off. Talking to a lady from NL yesterday she was saying it’s dire in most of her province as so many came back and ei has run out. She said half the province is virtually bankrupt, all the little towns and such. It will eventually head the same direction here if something isn’t done. Also the feds take a big chunk in royalties as well, so they have a lot to lose. They do have the option of legislating the pipelines through regardless of court decisions.

  82. #282

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    I've lived in Alberta since 1976, when I was seven. How many redneck hissy fits is that?

    But you aren't answering my question. What is your gripe with the government in Ottawa? What else could they have done?

  83. #283
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    They could legislate the pipeline through. I agree Trudeau is trying. I dislike Quebec for refusing a pipeline and BC for same. Natives that do not realize the importance of Canadian money to themselves and the rest of the do gooders and tree huggers that live high on the hog but do not realize why or how that comes about. Industry, resources and agriculture virtually keeps everyone alive. Without it we would not be here in the first place. If the do gooders stop this then what is next. Stop cutting trees? Stop catching fish? Stop tilling the land with polluting tractors? and use of fertilizers and herbicides? Stop everything eventually if these people get their way. Live like the hippies on Saltspring with outhouses and little generators I guess. But assistance money from government would end too.

  84. #284

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    Quebec refused our pipeline, because they can't process our heavy oil at their refineries. It doesn't make sense to ship it out east if there is no where to process it. The refineries out east are built to handle lighter Saudi crude.

  85. #285

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    ^"They could legislate the pipeline through."

    The legislation would be overturned on the basis of Article 35 of the Constitution Act.

    35.
    (1) The existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and affirmed.
    (2) In this Act, “aboriginal peoples of Canada” includes the Indian, Inuit and Métis peoples of Canada.
    (3) For greater certainty, in subsection (1) “treaty rights” includes rights that now exist by way of land claims agreements or may be so acquired.
    (4) Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, the aboriginal and treaty rights referred to in subsection (1) are guaranteed equally to male and female persons.
    And this section cannot be over-ruled through the notwithstanding clause.

    33.
    (1) Parliament or the legislature of a province may expressly declare in an Act of Parliament or of the legislature, as the case may be, that the Act or a provision thereof shall operate notwithstanding a provision included in section 2 or sections 7 to 15 of this Charter.
    (2) An Act or a provision of an Act in respect of which a declaration made under this section is in effect shall have such operation as it would have but for the provision of this Charter referred to in the declaration.
    (3) A declaration made under subsection (1) shall cease to have effect five years after it comes into force or on such earlier date as may be specified in the declaration.
    (4) Parliament or the legislature of a province may re-enact a declaration made under subsection (1).
    (5) Subsection (3) applies in respect of a re-enactment made under subsection (4).
    All the bolding is mine.

  86. #286

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    "Peace. order and good government" would prevail in the beginning of Section 91 notwithstanding any argument to the contrary even with Section 35. Let's see if Trudeau has the moxy.

  87. #287
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    As usual Trevor Tombe has a pretty balanced column about this court decision: https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/trans-mountain/

    But while partisans will be out in full force, context is important. The previous Conservative federal government faced a similar court decision overturning its approval of the now defunct Northern Gateway pipeline. Consultations matter. They’re required by law. And building pipelines is never easy, in Canada as elsewhere. Two weeks ago, for example, a U.S. federal judge ordered a full environmental review of the Keystone XL project, delaying the project there. And the Line 3 expansion in Minnesota faced some regulatory hurdles earlier this year, which it later overcame. This is not unique to Canada, and placing blame on one party or another does the goal of building pipelines a disservice.

    On balance, as I’ve written many times before, I think pipelines are worth building. But it’s important to get the process right. We can learn from these missteps, and do better in the future. Today’s decision isn’t the end of the road, though it’s now a little longer.
    The Liberals/NEB did screw up in trying to rush through the consultations and not considering the impact of additional tanker traffic. But they didn't create the approval process, as a succession of previous governments did, and that same process tripped up the Conservatives on Northern Gateway. Hopefully they can get their ducks in a row quickly and resolve the two issues in a reasonable time frame.

  88. #288

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    Instead of hysterics, the way forward is obvious: secure the agreement of the several native tribes, and incorporate a proper environmental study of the marine effects. The deficiencies to be addressed are specific, and quite manageable.

    The provincial government's reaction is pointless. It will achieve nothing except to make a working relationship with the feds to forge forward on the pipeline much more difficult.

    Whatever you think of his politics, the premier of BC has handled this brilliantly. Instead of political rhetoric and hasty actions, he appealed to the courts.

    That is the civilized thing to do.

    BC should not be boycotted. They should be emulated.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 31-08-2018 at 10:00 AM.

  89. #289

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    "Peace. order and good government" would prevail in the beginning of Section 91 notwithstanding any argument to the contrary even with Section 35. Let's see if Trudeau has the moxy.
    Peace would be the first to go if Trudeau moxied the way you want.

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    i think the underlying issue is the assumption that with sufficient consultation there will be agreement. if either side in a consultation has taken a position on principle, then it is unreasonable to expect them to change their belief in those principles no matter how much additional consultation takes place.

    someone who does not agree on abortion rights - on either side - based on principled belief is not going to change their mind no matter how much or for how long they are consulted. as a society we need to make decisions knowing there will always be some who will not agree with the decision. they need to be respected and not ostracized but they do not need to be given a never ending veto power.

    what is the point of consulting past the point where the other party says “no matter how much we discuss and consult on this issue we will never change our position”? if a party is prepared to say and demonstrate such conviction, then a decision needs to made that respects that right but doesn’t necessarily defer to it.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  91. #291

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    To consult in political terms means to take someone's interest into account.

    What this means is that several first nations will have to get something out of it.

    This is how Canada works, and to deny it for the sake of expedience or speed is to show the lack of respect that is the core of the problem.

    KCantor knows this, but he can't quite bring himself to admit it.

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    ^^^^I doubt the BC Premier's response would be as sanguine if the Shell-led LNG project (the only one left that still has legs) meets the same fate at the hand of the courts. And it very well could for the same reasons that are causing seemingly endless delays for the TransMountain expansion.

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    I'm curious who is "assuming" that consultation would lead to agreement? Certainly not the Federal Court of Appeal in it's decision. That's not the standard that the court set out, that full agreement was required. It did say that simply sitting, listening, and doing nothing differently after is not "consultation". Which I'd have to agree with, as would any reasonable person.

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    ^^^
    i’ll stand by what i posted despite your misrepresenting it.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^^^
    i’ll stand by what i posted despite your misrepresenting it.
    How was it misrepresented in my post? From my perspective, the first sentence in your post itself misrepresents the court's decision/reasoning.

  96. #296

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^^^
    i’ll stand by what i posted despite your misrepresenting it.
    All right. I completely withdraw my comment:

    KCantor knows this, but he can't quite bring himself to admit it.
    But what I said about zero respect being the root of the problem stands.

    Trump's position that he will give Canada nothing (as the Star reports just now) also comes to mind . It's off-topic, but the root problem is the same.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 31-08-2018 at 11:26 AM.

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    Ah, whoops, didn't realize Ken was responding to AShetsen, and not my post. But along the same vein, this is another good article that talks about the difficult of defining exactly what "meaningful consultation" even is: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ling-1.4805838

  98. #298

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    Meaningful consultation means reaching consensus. If you have to bribe, to put it bluntly, to reach consensus, then what you spend is part of the cost for what you want. And costs are set by the market, which in this case includes, with overlaps, the first nations, the BC voters and their government, and the elected federal government.

    The government has shown they are willing to fund from public money the costs of the pipeline. I assume that's what most of you want, since there is no other entity out there prepared to assume the costs. Ask yourselves this: How badly do you think Alberta and Canada need this pipeline? Is it worth its actual costs? If it isn't, are you prepared to have no pipeline? Or, otherwise, why are you insisting it be built without paying (through taxes) its costs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    I'm curious who is "assuming" that consultation would lead to agreement? Certainly not the Federal Court of Appeal in it's decision. That's not the standard that the court set out, that full agreement was required. It did say that simply sitting, listening, and doing nothing differently after is not "consultation". Which I'd have to agree with, as would any reasonable person.
    OK. But at the same time, the judgment uses language like the failure to engage in "meaningful two-way dialogue" with Indigenous communities as a reason to strike down federal approval of the TransMountain expansion. What constitutes meaningful two-dialogue is open to a lot of interpretation and misinterpretation especially when a decision is made to proceed with something you oppose. Your caricature that the federal government simply sat, listened, and did nothing differently is itself a misrepresentation or at best a gross simplification of the actual consultation that occurred.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen
    Meaningful consultation means reaching consensus.
    No, it doesn't, and that isn't the standard the decision laid out.

    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley
    Your caricature that the federal government simply sat, listened, and did nothing differently is itself a misrepresentation or at best a gross simplification of the actual consultation that occurred.
    It may be a caricature, but the court decision basically agreed with said caricature not being good enough. From the link in my post above:

    First Nations groups do not get a veto over projects on their lands. Nor do they have to be happy with the outcome. Further, consultations need not be "perfect," according to previous case law. Rather the government is required to conduct meaningful, good faith consultation.
    While Thursday's ruling conceded that the crown's consultations were reasonable and thorough, they were not sufficiently meaningful.

    "Meaningful consultation is not just a process of exchanging information," it explains, going on to reference an earlier precedent: "Meaningful consultation 'entails testing and being prepared to amend policy proposals in the light of information received, and providing feedback.'"

    The representatives of the Crown, then, cannot be mere note takers — diligently recording concerns and returning them to decision makers. They have to listen and respond.


    "Canada was required to do more than receive and understand the concerns of the Indigenous applicants. Canada was required to engage in a considered, meaningful two-way dialogue."

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