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Thread: Rural Crime in Alberta

  1. #1

    Default Rural Crime in Alberta

    Sad but times are changing in rural Alberta...

    Interesting comment in one article about 'not being able to arrest their way out of the situation'. I think that's a good attitude. Prevention seems better than putting more people in prison and setting them up as permanently unemployable - which of course means that they end up turning to crime once out. I'm not sure what the better approach would be but it's not like there's a lot of evidence that the incredibly severe penalties used in past ages ever stopped the crimes - may in fact have made them even more violent.


    Rural crime has communities taking matters into their own hands

    Catherine Griwkowsky, Edmonton Journal, January 28, 2018

    The days of waiting for the RCMP to be guardians and saviours are over in rural Alberta.

    In Smoky Lake, Trevor Tychkowsky, president of the Alberta Provincial Rural Crime Watch Association, said more and more farmers are installing security systems and locking their doors.

    “The days of having our places kept open and keys in vehicles, those days are done,” said Tychkowsky. “Criminals have come to figure that stuff out.”

    As theft has steadily increased in Alberta, more and more security systems are being installed on rural properties, he added.

    “That was unheard of before. It was pretty safe to have your toys and tractors with keys sitting right in them. Not anymore. That can’t happen,” said Tychkowsky.

    ...
    An Integrated Crime Reduction unit was formed to tackle repeat offenders. In one case in 2017, RCMP arrested three people police say were linked to 300 calls for service before they were finally nabbed.
    ...

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/crim...heir-own-hands
    Alberta RCMP changing tactics to address rural crime: commanding officer
    By Sarah Kraus, Global News, December 26, 2017


    It’s been called an epidemic and between the home invasions, robberies, ATM grabs, gas and dash’s and property thefts, rural Alberta had more than it’s share of crime in 2017.

    “There’s normally a small number of people that are responsible for a large portion of the crime that occurs within our respective communities,” Shean said.
    He said he is implementing an idea he’s used successfully in eastern Canada, right here in Alberta.

    To start with, he’s investing more into the intelligence division.

    “Be it property crime, and who’s impacting us there, or be it the more sophisticated organized crime that affects us here in the province, I really feel you can be innovative in how you attack crime, but first you need to understand it,” Shean said.

    ...
    “We’re already seeing short-term results, but it’s going to take a little longer.”

    https://globalnews.ca/news/3926191/a...nding-officer/



    What's growing in rural Alberta? Rural crime, say residents visiting legislature

    Emma Graney, Edmonton Journal, November 27, 2017

    Mabel Hamilton used to talk to her neighbours about the weather. Now, conversations are all about local crime.

    Her Innisfail-area home has been robbed twice over the past year, and two trucks stolen. Her dogs were able to thwart another pair of attempted robberies, scaring off the culprits as they tried to break in.

    Hamilton and her husband are ranchers. They’ve been home each time.

    “To be that bold — that’s the part that amazes me. We’re in the barn and they’re trying to get into our house,” Hamilton said Monday.

    She was one of more than 100 rural Albertans who descended on the legislature to raise their concerns about what Hamilton called “rampant” crime in their communities.

    Allan Erickson was another. He and his wife live just outside Spruce View, around 50 km southwest of Red Deer.

    Their home was robbed twice within three days this summer.

    Like Hamilton, Erickson said the constant topic of conversation in the coffee shop and at work these days is crime — who was broken into, whose vehicle was stolen.

    “We’re having a hard time understanding what’s being done about it. It’s just not working. It’s epidemic proportions,” Erickson said.

    ..."

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...ng-legislature

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    It's been like this for awhile now. It doesn't get noticed because out of sight, out of mind.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    It has gotten much worse though. People drive on your property like its common land, or a park!

  4. #4

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    i hate that the rural folk make it about them when crime in the city is as bad or worst. I had my house robbed once and the police couldn't be bothered to show up for 5 hours. I had to clear the house myself to make sure no one was in it still.

    Worst part yet is with the trial in sask youve got the red neck rural folk claiming theyll shoot anyone on site on their properties.

    There is definitely a worthy discussion to give property owners better rights to defend their homes but that won't be happening now as per a recent liberal release.

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    What is the property crime rate in the US where states have Castle Doctrine ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    i hate that the rural folk make it about them when crime in the city is as bad or worst. I had my house robbed once and the police couldn't be bothered to show up for 5 hours. I had to clear the house myself to make sure no one was in it still.

    Worst part yet is with the trial in sask youve got the red neck rural folk claiming theyll shoot anyone on site on their properties.

    There is definitely a worthy discussion to give property owners better rights to defend their homes but that won't be happening now as per a recent liberal release.
    Oh right, like the case in sask, where they had a gun, and they were drunk, and they tried to steal, bloody saints!
    Not all people living in the country are red necks, just like all city dwellers are not uppity little lefties.
    Last edited by H.L.; 13-02-2018 at 08:42 PM.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    What is the property crime rate in the US where states have Castle Doctrine ?
    I actually saw stats somewhere and it didn't make things any better

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    i hate that the rural folk make it about them when crime in the city is as bad or worst. I had my house robbed once and the police couldn't be bothered to show up for 5 hours. I had to clear the house myself to make sure no one was in it still.

    Worst part yet is with the trial in sask youve got the red neck rural folk claiming theyll shoot anyone on site on their properties.

    There is definitely a worthy discussion to give property owners better rights to defend their homes but that won't be happening now as per a recent liberal release.
    Oh right, like the case in sask, where they had a gun, and they were drunk, and they tried to steal, bloody saints!
    I'll share a good thread later from a lawyer who broke down the facts as presented in the case. He doesnt say someone is guilty or not guilty but touches upon the facts as accepted by yhe jury.

    It's a pretty crazy sequence of events that any lawyer would laugh at... but it was accepted as facts in the trial.

    Regardless of that trial rural crime or crime in the city is an issue... hate to say it but many parts of the city are worst then in the country.

    The rural folk like to make themselves out to be victims as though people in the city have it easy.

    Edited: here is the link

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...1&id=514000570

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    i hate that the rural folk make it about them when crime in the city is as bad or worst. I had my house robbed once and the police couldn't be bothered to show up for 5 hours. I had to clear the house myself to make sure no one was in it still.

    Worst part yet is with the trial in sask youve got the red neck rural folk claiming theyll shoot anyone on site on their properties.

    There is definitely a worthy discussion to give property owners better rights to defend their homes but that won't be happening now as per a recent liberal release.
    Oh right, like the case in sask, where they had a gun, and they were drunk, and they tried to steal, bloody saints!
    I'll share a good thread later from a lawyer who broke down the facts as presented in the case. He doesnt say someone is guilty or not guilty but touches upon the facts as accepted by yhe jury.

    It's a pretty crazy sequence of events that any lawyer would laugh at... but it was accepted as facts in the trial.

    Regardless of that trial rural crime or crime in the city is an issue... hate to say it but many parts of the city are worst then in the country.

    The rural folk like to make themselves out to be victims as though people in the city have it easy.

    Edited: here is the link

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...1&id=514000570
    I've never heard either say they have it better or worse. I think you should be able to defend yourself from drunken punks, so if anyone broke into our house and hurt my animals or my family, I have a baseball bat, and I would use it!

  10. #10

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    I’d characterize the history as the rural people knowing they had it better than the cities. However now their situations are becoming as bad as the cities and worse in some ways such as; if they need help, it’s simply not going to be coming.

    For a few years now there have been reports of acreage breakins being on the rise because thieves feel quite safe breaking in to residences when the owner is out.




    As an aside, I’ve posted on a couple other forum’s threads about searching for friendly private property signs (which don’t seem to exist for sale) for out at our cabin. It’s amazing how hostile many, many posters are about anyone coming on to their land. There’s many posts on shooting anyone that steps on their property. Mostly bluster by there are a lot of crazy people out there. I however don’t want to put up the rather hostile sounding “No Trespassing” signs.

    Here’s some quick grabs of my previous conversation on “polite” / friendly private property signage:


    Member # Posted: 2 Mar 2015 22:11 - Edited by: KinAlberta
    Reply Quote

    Well one thing in Canada I'd guess is that there's a bit of tradition of people moving freely about on property since so much of it was uninhabited or in the case of natives and early pioneers they likely went anywhere they desired. No harm no foul. Still, a few No Trespassing signs seem warranted.

    I'd like to know what conservation programs you're involved in - ...
    The Use Respect Program

    Use RespectThe Use Respect program is an initiative of Alberta Environment and Sustainable Resource Development and the Alberta Conservation Association. Its purpose is to build awareness of the rights and responsibilities of recreationists, agricultural leaseholders, and landowners, particularly as they pertain to recreational access to lands.

    http://mywildalberta.com/Hunting/LandAccess.aspx


    Here's the best sign I've seen so far:


    source:
    http://www.liska.ca/2014/06/
    "50% of the Bruce still crosses private property. Generous land owners allow passage for travelers, so we are careful to respect their privacy and their property."


    Page 4 of this is interesting - orange paint on fence posts

    http://macdnet.org/WY%20Fence%20Guide_FINAL.pdf

    # Posted: 26 Jun 2015 03:13
    Reply Quote

    The thing is, why does anyone care that someone is walking uninvited on their property? We have.... lakefront with a beautiful creek flowing through it and have always had people stop their boats and step ashore. Families from the very close by RV resort regularly walked onto our property to see the creek with all its wildlife. We've always been totally fine with that. Didn't care for any trash people left but that was very rare. Bottom line was that people were just wanting to see some nature and they weren't out to rob us or anything like that. And signs will never stop those that come to steal.
    Quote Originally Posted by KinAlberta
    In my case I don't want to allow any hunting or fires, but don't mind people hiking at their own risk.

    Just got a call from a neighbour out there. They found a hind end of a moose that was shot and butchered (leaving two younger moose behind) on our property. We had an old barbed wire gate that was down and people were ATVing through it. The No Trespassing sign a hundred feet away apparently didn't deter them.

    Neighbour isn't impressed either that people are shooting a few thousand feet from their subdivision.

    Modifying that sign I posted further up this thread I may get the following signs made up:



    NO FIRES - NO HUNTING

    PRIVATE PROPERTY

    FOR HIKING ONLY at ONE'S OWN RISK
    ALL OTHER USES PROHIBITED

    Well, it seems that the sign images are no fixed in a PDF


    Zoom in on these links for good examples:

    Scroll down first:
    http://www.liska.ca/2014/06/

    https://justinpluslauren.com/bruce-trail-niagara-falls/


    Montana too

    In Idaho, Orange Paint Means 'No Trespassing'

    Did you know that in Idaho, the color orange means “No Trespassing” regardless of whether or not there is a posted sign?

    "If you come across fence posts, with the top 18 inches or more painted orange, you should get out. You’re on private property and they don’t want you there."
    I’ve lived in Idaho for most of my life and had no idea, uniI I saw this information about states that use various paint colors to identify private property lines. In Texas, they use purple. In Idaho, orange is the color that means “Keep out!”

    ...


    http://kezj.com/in-idaho-orange-pain...o-trespassing/

    What Do You Do When You See This Purple Paint In Montana?

    http://971kissfm.com/what-do-you-do-...nt-in-montana/
    Last edited by KC; 14-02-2018 at 04:19 PM.

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    It's too bad there are not equal protests out there supporting the farmer. All that's going to happen now is policy is going to change because of these vocal minorities.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    It's too bad there are not equal protests out there supporting the farmer. All that's going to happen now is policy is going to change because of these vocal minorities.
    That’s a court case - over an issue that will forever be contentious no matter what the outcome. (Remember Weibo Ludwig and the common sentiment that he was in the wrong in that case. Maybe because people didn’t like him. I don’t know if he was even charged.) Anytime any stranger is shot on someone’s property a claim can be made that it was self-defence. Actually not even with strangers. I could imagine that a lot of seemingly self-defense killings might actually outright premeditated staged murders where the victim is lured to a house or property and then off’d.

    As for protests, read the article in my first post. The farmers are already protesting
    Last edited by KC; 14-02-2018 at 08:34 AM.

  13. #13

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    Some legal basics:

    trespassing, trespass, edmonton

    http://www.slsedmonton.com/trespass/




    Rights of hunters and landowners - The Law - The Western Producer

    https://www.producer.com/2002/10/rig...wners-the-law/
    Last edited by KC; 14-02-2018 at 08:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    It's too bad there are not equal protests out there supporting the farmer. All that's going to happen now is policy is going to change because of these vocal minorities.
    Of course, and they can go on his land, do what they want...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post

    I'll share a good thread later from a lawyer who broke down the facts as presented in the case. He doesnt say someone is guilty or not guilty but touches upon the facts as accepted by yhe jury.

    It's a pretty crazy sequence of events that any lawyer would laugh at... but it was accepted as facts in the trial.

    Regardless of that trial rural crime or crime in the city is an issue... hate to say it but many parts of the city are worst then in the country.

    The rural folk like to make themselves out to be victims as though people in the city have it easy.

    Edited: here is the link

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...1&id=514000570
    I was wondering how fast the unfortunate events in Saskatchewan would become the theme. 4 posts. The conversation is not about the Stanley verdict, but more about crime in general.

    I could share a lot of other facebook links too, it doesn't mean anything else other than one's perspective. There are posts flying around from Native Canadians saying things like it is time to have the community grow up. OK. Here are the key "facts" as I see it. A) no one posting was actually a juror. B) no one posting was either counsel. C) No one posting was the judge. If you weren't in the trial, then you don't know.

    To your points specifically, I don't see anywhere a conversation saying rural folks have it "worse". In fact, I see many posts saying they had it "better" for years. Low crime was an attractive piece of the rural lore. However, the spike in rural crime is alarming. If Edmonton had the same spike (as represented per capita), there would be all kinds of uproar. Yes, city crime is still "worse", if you can call it that. No rural person I know thinks people in the city "have it easy", to quote you.

    When it comes to home defense, especially with guns, I will tell you that I have had far scarier conversations with urban dwellers when it comes to "home defenders" (aka shotguns or handguns).

    The crime escalation out my way is easily 90-99% urbanites coming out for a quick steal in an area where they think no one will notice. In the city, odds of being noticed are greater. Now, I see homes like mine investing in CCTV, alarms, etc. That was not even a thought 10 years ago. Again, it isn't that people out here have it worse, it is the geometric escalation in crime.

    As for the inevitable race conversation that will come up now that the Stanley piece was brought up, out my way, the property crime I see is overwhelmingly perpetrated by Caucasians. It aligns to the demographics of the area, and of Edmonton. However, on a personal note, the issues I've had are from rather diverse backgrounds. In short, a jerk is a jerk, no matter the skin tone.

    ...and as for the lawyers "laughing", well, anecdotally my wife and her law partners, associates, peers, etc are NOT laughing. This discussion is quite serious, and the rhetoric spewed on social media and traditional media is as concerning as the story itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.L
    [It has gotten much worse though. People drive on your property like its common land, or a park!
    This is the biggest issue. I have people using my driveway as a racetrack, driving all over fields destroying crops, road poaching 3 moose, and the most amazing...a group of Edmonton campers deciding that my hay field was a great campground. When I noticed smoke coming from my north quarter section, I thought there was a forest fire (this was in 2015 during the huge drought), so I was worried and rushed out. I ended up upon a group of 20 or so campers, all set up and having a bonfire surrounded by tinder dry alfalfa, and they started threatening me when I asked them what they were doing. All were from Edmonton. It was a rather diverse group of people that normally trespass to get onto the NS River, but I guess that route was full of other tresspassers. I now have the field gated off.

    KC, to your point, and why I bring up the trespassing on my place, it is about your liability more than it is about some vague aspect of freedom of movement. As noted above, if that camping expedition caused a forest fire, I would have to then prove that I didn't allow the camping and fire to absolve me of any responsibility in the subsequent fire. Also, there is a large spread of pathogens like Clubroot that is devastating to agriculture. One person 4X4-ing on land will bring the dirtborne spores onto uninfected land. Companies and farmers spend tons of $$$ disinfecting equipment, only to have it spread by people looking for free trails.

    The best way is to actually post signs that say No hunting or fishing without permission. Co-Op sells these. I have several on my place. No Trespassing is a bit of a given, but you should put a couple up anyway. No Trespassing is not hostile, but the juvenile "This property is protected by Smith and Wesson" or "trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" are just plain stupid. ...and as for the bravado of internet cowboys that say they would shoot someone on their land on sight, they wouldn't. It takes a lot to take a life, let alone a human life. The military spends years stripping down your ability to see the figure in your sights as a person with a family, rather than just a "target". I've heard the same bravado before, and not one person who has said that resorts to shooting someone when the trespassing happens. Not one. I actually have more issues with out of area trespassers (usually city dwellers looking for a hidden place to be a-holes) threatening me with being shot....that and poachers.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    ^Any hunting groups or forums I'm a part of paint the rural folk as disadvantaged and far more likely to get hit by crime then in the city. It's a logic I haven't been able to understand as the city has its own challenges that they seem to dismiss.

    It is an issue regardless of where you are. Different challenges but an equal issue regardless of where you live

  17. #17

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    To add a bit of levity ---- my farm was located alongside the #1 hwy. east of Calgary and I was the victim of multiple gas thefts from my overhead 500 gallon fuel tanks (4 diesel and one gas). I relabeled one diesel tank as gas and labeled the gas tank as #2 diesel. The offending gas thieves could always be found within a mile or two down the highway

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    Classic.

    Top_Dawg has to give you a high five for that one.

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    LOL. Did the same thing. It worked wonders.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    ^Any hunting groups or forums I'm a part of paint the rural folk as disadvantaged and far more likely to get hit by crime then in the city. It's a logic I haven't been able to understand as the city has its own challenges that they seem to dismiss.

    It is an issue regardless of where you are. Different challenges but an equal issue regardless of where you live
    ...then you need new forums, or less whiners and BS'ers.

    The issue is the geometric increase in crime. With advances in cell technology and spread, pavement out this far, and all the other conveniences that make life out here easier than 1974, it also attracts opportunists.

    Yes, I have my concerns out here. ...but I had far more issues with crime in Edmonton, and more so in Calgary. I won't even get into NYC and Houston...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post

    I'll share a good thread later from a lawyer who broke down the facts as presented in the case. He doesnt say someone is guilty or not guilty but touches upon the facts as accepted by yhe jury.

    It's a pretty crazy sequence of events that any lawyer would laugh at... but it was accepted as facts in the trial.

    Regardless of that trial rural crime or crime in the city is an issue... hate to say it but many parts of the city are worst then in the country.

    The rural folk like to make themselves out to be victims as though people in the city have it easy.

    Edited: here is the link

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...1&id=514000570
    I was wondering how fast the unfortunate events in Saskatchewan would become the theme. 4 posts. The conversation is not about the Stanley verdict, but more about crime in general.

    I could share a lot of other facebook links too, it doesn't mean anything else other than one's perspective. There are posts flying around from Native Canadians saying things like it is time to have the community grow up. OK. Here are the key "facts" as I see it. A) no one posting was actually a juror. B) no one posting was either counsel. C) No one posting was the judge. If you weren't in the trial, then you don't know.

    To your points specifically, I don't see anywhere a conversation saying rural folks have it "worse". In fact, I see many posts saying they had it "better" for years. Low crime was an attractive piece of the rural lore. However, the spike in rural crime is alarming. If Edmonton had the same spike (as represented per capita), there would be all kinds of uproar. Yes, city crime is still "worse", if you can call it that. No rural person I know thinks people in the city "have it easy", to quote you.

    When it comes to home defense, especially with guns, I will tell you that I have had far scarier conversations with urban dwellers when it comes to "home defenders" (aka shotguns or handguns).

    The crime escalation out my way is easily 90-99% urbanites coming out for a quick steal in an area where they think no one will notice. In the city, odds of being noticed are greater. Now, I see homes like mine investing in CCTV, alarms, etc. That was not even a thought 10 years ago. Again, it isn't that people out here have it worse, it is the geometric escalation in crime.

    As for the inevitable race conversation that will come up now that the Stanley piece was brought up, out my way, the property crime I see is overwhelmingly perpetrated by Caucasians. It aligns to the demographics of the area, and of Edmonton. However, on a personal note, the issues I've had are from rather diverse backgrounds. In short, a jerk is a jerk, no matter the skin tone.

    ...and as for the lawyers "laughing", well, anecdotally my wife and her law partners, associates, peers, etc are NOT laughing. This discussion is quite serious, and the rhetoric spewed on social media and traditional media is as concerning as the story itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.L
    [It has gotten much worse though. People drive on your property like its common land, or a park!
    This is the biggest issue. I have people using my driveway as a racetrack, driving all over fields destroying crops, road poaching 3 moose, and the most amazing...a group of Edmonton campers deciding that my hay field was a great campground. When I noticed smoke coming from my north quarter section, I thought there was a forest fire (this was in 2015 during the huge drought), so I was worried and rushed out. I ended up upon a group of 20 or so campers, all set up and having a bonfire surrounded by tinder dry alfalfa, and they started threatening me when I asked them what they were doing. All were from Edmonton. It was a rather diverse group of people that normally trespass to get onto the NS River, but I guess that route was full of other tresspassers. I now have the field gated off.

    KC, to your point, and why I bring up the trespassing on my place, it is about your liability more than it is about some vague aspect of freedom of movement. As noted above, if that camping expedition caused a forest fire, I would have to then prove that I didn't allow the camping and fire to absolve me of any responsibility in the subsequent fire. Also, there is a large spread of pathogens like Clubroot that is devastating to agriculture. One person 4X4-ing on land will bring the dirtborne spores onto uninfected land. Companies and farmers spend tons of $$$ disinfecting equipment, only to have it spread by people looking for free trails.

    The best way is to actually post signs that say No hunting or fishing without permission. Co-Op sells these. I have several on my place. No Trespassing is a bit of a given, but you should put a couple up anyway. No Trespassing is not hostile, but the juvenile "This property is protected by Smith and Wesson" or "trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" are just plain stupid. ...and as for the bravado of internet cowboys that say they would shoot someone on their land on sight, they wouldn't. It takes a lot to take a life, let alone a human life. The military spends years stripping down your ability to see the figure in your sights as a person with a family, rather than just a "target". I've heard the same bravado before, and not one person who has said that resorts to shooting someone when the trespassing happens. Not one. I actually have more issues with out of area trespassers (usually city dwellers looking for a hidden place to be a-holes) threatening me with being shot....that and poachers.
    On the signage, we now have No Trespassing signs up on two roads backing our place. Found No Hunting signs and have a few up (someone was shooting a rife not far from our cabin when I was there in the middle of tiling)
    Have found remains of camp fires too.
    Plus a breakin this past fall into four buildings (not the cabins though).
    Yeah, the liability risk is what I fear.

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    Liability is your biggest issue.

    This, if any one reason, is what is driving people bonkers.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    ^Any hunting groups or forums I'm a part of paint the rural folk as disadvantaged and far more likely to get hit by crime then in the city. It's a logic I haven't been able to understand as the city has its own challenges that they seem to dismiss.

    It is an issue regardless of where you are. Different challenges but an equal issue regardless of where you live
    ...then you need new forums, or less whiners and BS'ers.

    The issue is the geometric increase in crime. With advances in cell technology and spread, pavement out this far, and all the other conveniences that make life out here easier than 1974, it also attracts opportunists.

    Yes, I have my concerns out here. ...but I had far more issues with crime in Edmonton, and more so in Calgary. I won't even get into NYC and Houston...
    Albertas largest hunting forum is all about rural crime and how bad it is. It seems every other day theres a new post talking about setting traps or discussions on shooting trespassers.

    It's quite the cess pool when it comes to rural crime and defending your property.

    You have a well balanced view on crime in general thats refreshing to see.

  24. #24

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    The unfortunate part of human nature is that when we actually see our possessions getting stolen the knee jerk reaction is to defend our property. If we were not there and came home after the fact we would be angry but really not much we can do about it except call the police and the insurance company. Now I can imagine it being hard for a person rural or not to actually witness the crime but at the end of the day its just 'stuff' that can be replaced by insurance. A life, not so much.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  25. #25

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    Except not all things can be replaced. (And insurance may not cover the loss. While I t hasn’t been stolen yet, our old ski boat is in like new condition - but minimally insured because it’s old and mostly uninsurable. If it was stolen it’s value woulx simply be gone.)

    Also the damage they do when breaking in is a pain to deal with. A breakin back (2nd latest one) they cut the padlock off then hammed a hole through the door to reach inside to just undo the door knob latch. Kicking it in eould have done less damage. They also smashed the light fixture above (I still have to replace the patched door and the fixture). This last time a couple months ago they only had to cut off the padlock as the door knob has failed (no problem- I bought 16 keyed alike locks so I’d have some spares to replace those that were cut off.

    Saw a security video a while back of a truck driving through a garage door to get inside. Not something they’d do in the city.
    Last edited by KC; 14-02-2018 at 09:36 PM.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    The unfortunate part of human nature is that when we actually see our possessions getting stolen the knee jerk reaction is to defend our property. If we were not there and came home after the fact we would be angry but really not much we can do about it except call the police and the insurance company. Now I can imagine it being hard for a person rural or not to actually witness the crime but at the end of the day its just 'stuff' that can be replaced by insurance. A life, not so much.
    It happens a couple of times, you're p! ssed off, but over and over, I think you can get really angry..in the city 911 responds pretty fast, in the country, not so fast..

  27. #27

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    Exactly.

    Skim this article.

    Mean dogs and bear spray: Rural Alberta communities on guard during ‘epidemic’ of crime - The Globe and Mail

    “...Ms. McLeod found the visit so unnerving that she posted photos she was able to snap of the pair surreptitiously to a local crime-watch Facebook group. Days later, she learned they had been arrested nearby and that the man was charged with mischief.”...


    “ "Everyone is on guard," said Brad Dallas, a long-time Bowden-area farmer whose property was broken into three times in 2017, the thieves making off with an all-terrain vehicle, a semi-trailer, tools and electronics. ...”


    “Dane Bruce said his OC Archery Range – located where the Calgary bedroom community of Airdrie meets the countryside – has been broken into three times in the past two years. The robberies have left him with smashed windows and stolen cash registers....”

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle37757132/
    Last edited by KC; 15-02-2018 at 10:54 AM.

  28. #28

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    He pulled up the security video on his cellphone - see video on article
    (interesting and scary what happened when he chased them in his vehicle )


    Alberta ranch hand speaks out after being shot at by robbers
    July, 2018

    https://globalnews.ca/news/3630217/r...thern-alberta/


    Consider farm security to keep crime in check - The Western Producer
    https://www.producer.com/2017/06/con...rime-in-check/




    I imagine security camera video dramatically cuts the cost of prosecution, and might even cut the cost of catching thieves.

    Too bad there isn’t a way for the RCMP to deploy a number of temporary, portable security systems to a high crime rate territory to deal with crime. Then otherwise randomly do so to different areas.
    Last edited by KC; 18-02-2018 at 11:52 AM.

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    Yeah, it is kind of scary.

    I've been shot at before. Once by a truckload of poachers. Once by river trespassers. It isn't fun.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    ...I have people using my driveway as a racetrack, driving all over fields destroying crops, road poaching 3 moose, and the most amazing...a group of Edmonton campers deciding that my hay field was a great campground. When I noticed smoke coming from my north quarter section, I thought there was a forest fire (this was in 2015 during the huge drought), so I was worried and rushed out. I ended up upon a group of 20 or so campers, all set up and having a bonfire surrounded by tinder dry alfalfa, and they started threatening me when I asked them what they were doing. All were from Edmonton. It was a rather diverse group of people that normally trespass to get onto the NS River, but I guess that route was full of other tresspassers. I now have the field gated off.

    KC, to your point, and why I bring up the trespassing on my place, it is about your liability more than it is about some vague aspect of freedom of movement. As noted above, if that camping expedition caused a forest fire, I would have to then prove that I didn't allow the camping and fire to absolve me of any responsibility in the subsequent fire. .
    This reverse onus nonsense needs to be fixed. Trespassing needs to be treated an "at your own risk" activity. No going after landowners because the squatters that violated the fire ban are harder to catch. Even if they were camping with permission, the campers and not the landowner should still be the ones responsible for keeping fires under control and knowing about fire bans. Landowners should only share responsibility (share, not be exclusively responsible) for ensuring public safety if they have accepted payment or other consideration for the use of their land, or if the land is both unmarked / open (no fences or signage indicating that it is private property) and contains significant unmarked artificial hazards. Things that might normally be found in a natural area shouldn't count as unmarked hazards. Giving hunters permission to hunt on your land shouldn't count as accepting payment (unless you actually made them pay).

    As for trespassing to get to the river, that seems to indicate a problem with lack of public access to public property. Shouldn't every grid road allowance that intersects the river be a public access?
    Last edited by Titanium48; 21-02-2018 at 01:51 PM.

  31. #31

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    Nice friendly sign:

    Bruce Trail BC



    http://www.liska.ca/wp-content/uploa...56-278x300.jpg


    I don’t know if this sets up the landowner for all kinds of liability. As in:

    NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED
    Last edited by KC; 25-02-2018 at 09:46 AM.

  32. #32

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    someone near okotoks shot a thief rummaging through their car. The property owner is detained. RCMP arrived within minutes.

    I'm genuinely curious to see how the rcmp handle this.

  33. #33

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    5:30 am!

    Okotoks RCMP investigating shots fired on rural property | Calgary Sun
    Excerpt:
    “RCMP said officers arrived at the residence at about 5:30 a.m. ...”

    http://calgarysun.com/news/crime/oko...rural-property

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    I am curious too.

    Without getting too graphic, I had something similar happen out here in BC Friday night. Guys broke in, drove down to the orchard, and started grabbing stuff and vandalizing. They got stuck and ran off. I guess a couple of days eariler, something similar happened. Dad's beyond fed up. The RCMP haven't even come out to impound the vandals stuck car...48 hours +.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I am curious too.

    Without getting too graphic, I had something similar happen out here in BC Friday night. Guys broke in, drove down to the orchard, and started grabbing stuff and vandalizing. They got stuck and ran off. I guess a couple of days eariler, something similar happened. Dad's beyond fed up. The RCMP haven't even come out to impound the vandals stuck car...48 hours +.
    Why has crime mostly increased in rural areas only?

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I am curious too.

    Without getting too graphic, I had something similar happen out here in BC Friday night. Guys broke in, drove down to the orchard, and started grabbing stuff and vandalizing. They got stuck and ran off. I guess a couple of days eariler, something similar happened. Dad's beyond fed up. The RCMP haven't even come out to impound the vandals stuck car...48 hours +.
    Stuck. Hmm maybe that’s what farms need to start doing - creating tank traps / muddy moats by their gates.

    Or trick cattle gates. Maybe we could call it:
    “The Water Gate”.
    Last edited by KC; 25-02-2018 at 08:09 PM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Why has crime mostly increased in rural areas only?
    I am not sure if you could say rural areas only...

    However..

    It is increasing as people move out to smaller towns and rec areas that once we're there are closed ...mainly due to suburban encroachment.

    Now, people are discovering areas outside the city, and they are not patrolled. There wasn't the need. Plus, with the campgrounds being full, people are creating their own on the rivers, etc, and trespassing to do so. This brings an element that sees the reality of just how isolated areas are, and they can come in during the day and just clean house. There is no rush. Alarms are useless.

    Things are starting to change. Rural Internet makes home monitoring possible. But thieves are one step ahead.

    Cities / towns have an advantage because of people in close proximity.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    Stuck. Hmm maybe that’s what farms need to start doing - creating tank traps / muddy moats by their gates.

    Or trick cattle gates. Maybe we could call it:
    “The Water Gate”.
    Yes... but again liability.

    I had a trap on the farm years ago...snared poachers. The fuss it caused was huge.

    That's a key problem.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  39. #39

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    it's rather odd the edmonton journal hasn't reported on the shooting in okotoks. They also refused to post anything on the stanley trial until it was over.

    Is a shooting of an intruder with a home owner being detained not news worthy enough?

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    Odd.

    I didn't read much in the Journal. But I thought it was because I wasn't reading the journal.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  41. #41

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    the thief was hit with 6 charges while the home owner who shot the thief has been charged with 3 different charges

  42. #42
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    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  43. #43

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    Fascinating.
    (From the article linked above)

    “I understand that property owners may want to protect their property, but there are limits to what people can do to protect their property. We will consistently encourage people to call the RCMP, let us do the investigation, let us manage the situation.”

    So have they even caught the other guy, even though they have one of the alleged thieves? No.

    Would they have even caught the first guy if he wasn’t wounded? Don’t know.

    Also, the one apprehended was - on parole!


    In other words: fully insure everything - even the uninsurable items. And don’t lock up anything or you’ll be facing added costs of repairing/replacing doors windows etc. that have been smashed in.
    Last edited by KC; 27-02-2018 at 07:43 AM.

  44. #44

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    I'd hate to sound American here, but if you live out in the sticks and someone's on your property who is posing a threat to you or your property, you're supposed to call the RCMP and wait who knows how many hours until they get there? By the time they arrive, the perps are long gone! By then you could have been robbed or injured, even killed. Sorry but some situations just call for self defence, especially if you're up against a group of people, and yes it can warrant escalation on your part if they're intoxicated, provoking you, or are carrying firearms. The RCMP won't immediately magically appear in the middle of nowhere when action needs to be taken now to protect you, your family and your property.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    Fascinating.
    (...)


    In other words: fully insure everything - even the uninsurable items. And don’t lock up anything or you’ll be facing added costs of repairing/replacing doors windows etc. that have been smashed in.
    This is the real reason why many rural folks leave some things unlocked. The cost to replace the broken infrastructure is higher than many of the items stolen. They just don't pick a lock out here, they drive the stolen vehicle through a garage door or front door. No one will hear the noise.

    There is also a story recently where a rural owner had his truck and RV stolen. He found it in an RV campground a couple months later...being used by the thief....only to have the thief try to run the original owner over...and the original owner is powerless or forbidden to defend himself because he gets in more trouble than the thief? Like I mentioned before KC....even putting up traps or snares on your property to ensnare people stealing from you is entrapment, and the thief can sue YOU for his injuries, loss of income, etc. AKA...you just gave the thief WCB. Nice perk.

    It is no wonder people start becoming more vigilante. I know out my way, the rash of thefts is alarming. One neighbour had his truck, RV, ATV's etc taken in broad daylight, only to find them on Kijiji being sold about 3 weeks later. The truck and RV still had the lock damage on it, and the seller said it was because he "lost his keys"... Others are having livestock shot, garages driven into, homes invaded, and even one or two crooks dumped off their dead in a nearby gully. There still is one more infamous cold case where the body was dumped out here...

    Yet...the RCMP are at best 40-60 minutes away, and the GPS Range Road/Township Road address on Google, Bing, Magellan, Garmin, etc has our address out in Stettler or Vauxhall....200+ miles away.

    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    I'd hate to sound American here, but if you live out in the sticks and someone's on your property who is posing a threat to you or your property, you're supposed to call the RCMP and wait who knows how many hours until they get there? By the time they arrive, the perps are long gone! By then you could have been robbed or injured, even killed. Sorry but some situations just call for self defence, especially if you're up against a group of people, and yes it can warrant escalation on your part if they're intoxicated, provoking you, or are carrying firearms. The RCMP won't immediately magically appear in the middle of nowhere when action needs to be taken now to protect you, your family and your property.
    While I am not saying escalations are the fix, I get this sentiment. I have been shot at...twice. Poachers both times. The first time it was a group of four hunters and I was barely 12. They just dropped a moose about 350 yards away, and instead of going to get it, said **** it and started driving away. That is when they came upon me and my dirt bike. One shot in my direction and said if I said anything, they would come back and kill me and my family. I didn't know if they were serious, or if they knew where I lived...I was 12...just saw the same gun drop a bull moose like it was a sack of rice...and then had it pointed at me. Yeah, like I am not going to comply...as I am a puddle of shaking, crying goo...

    Those memories, as well as others from neighbors, stick in your mind. We call the police on the issues out here, but when they show up, there is not much they can do. To date, no one has been raped or otherwise detained, but we have been shot at.

    Again, it is the perceived isolation. I have protected myself with cameras and a live feed, but the best that does is film my demise.

    I say this because...I get where some folks rightly do not understand some of the firearms issues...nor does it excuse unnecessary escalations...but until you've experienced the helplessness of having to hide while watching people steal your vehicle, gas, and other items...knowing full well that the 911 call you are on is useless, and you're trying to be quiet as you give someone in a call centre directions to a rural place she has never heard of...well...don't immediately write off the frustration as rednecks liking to go bang bang...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  46. #46

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    okotoks has an rcmp division in town and within minutes of the guys home and the guy shot the thief.... that's a major problem.

    It's an interesting debate that will escalate over the next little while... better laws are needed to protect home owners but what would those laws look like?

  47. #47

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    a go fund me was setup for the okotoks land owner. Their hoping to raise $100k. Assuming he raises this amount it will entice other land owners to shoot knowing theyll cash in if there is an issue.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    a go fund me was setup for the okotoks land owner. Their hoping to raise $100k. Assuming he raises this amount it will entice other land owners to shoot knowing theyll cash in if there is an issue.
    Quite the gamble. So I highly doubt anyone would make that assumption.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    Fascinating.
    (...)


    In other words: fully insure everything - even the uninsurable items. And don’t lock up anything or you’ll be facing added costs of repairing/replacing doors windows etc. that have been smashed in.
    This is the real reason why many rural folks leave some things unlocked. The cost to replace the broken infrastructure is higher than many of the items stolen. They just don't pick a lock out here, they drive the stolen vehicle through a garage door or front door. No one will hear the noise.

    There is also a story recently where a rural owner had his truck and RV stolen. He found it in an RV campground a couple months later...being used by the thief....only to have the thief try to run the original owner over...and the original owner is powerless or forbidden to defend himself because he gets in more trouble than the thief? Like I mentioned before KC....even putting up traps or snares on your property to ensnare people stealing from you is entrapment, and the thief can sue YOU for his injuries, loss of income, etc. AKA...you just gave the thief WCB. Nice perk.

    It is no wonder people start becoming more vigilante. I know out my way, the rash of thefts is alarming. One neighbour had his truck, RV, ATV's etc taken in broad daylight, only to find them on Kijiji being sold about 3 weeks later. The truck and RV still had the lock damage on it, and the seller said it was because he "lost his keys"... Others are having livestock shot, garages driven into, homes invaded, and even one or two crooks dumped off their dead in a nearby gully. There still is one more infamous cold case where the body was dumped out here...

    Yet...the RCMP are at best 40-60 minutes away, and the GPS Range Road/Township Road address on Google, Bing, Magellan, Garmin, etc has our address out in Stettler or Vauxhall....200+ miles away.

    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    I'd hate to sound American here, but if you live out in the sticks and someone's on your property who is posing a threat to you or your property, you're supposed to call the RCMP and wait who knows how many hours until they get there? By the time they arrive, the perps are long gone! By then you could have been robbed or injured, even killed. Sorry but some situations just call for self defence, especially if you're up against a group of people, and yes it can warrant escalation on your part if they're intoxicated, provoking you, or are carrying firearms. The RCMP won't immediately magically appear in the middle of nowhere when action needs to be taken now to protect you, your family and your property.
    While I am not saying escalations are the fix, I get this sentiment. I have been shot at...twice. Poachers both times. The first time it was a group of four hunters and I was barely 12. They just dropped a moose about 350 yards away, and instead of going to get it, said **** it and started driving away. That is when they came upon me and my dirt bike. One shot in my direction and said if I said anything, they would come back and kill me and my family. I didn't know if they were serious, or if they knew where I lived...I was 12...just saw the same gun drop a bull moose like it was a sack of rice...and then had it pointed at me. Yeah, like I am not going to comply...as I am a puddle of shaking, crying goo...

    Those memories, as well as others from neighbors, stick in your mind. We call the police on the issues out here, but when they show up, there is not much they can do. To date, no one has been raped or otherwise detained, but we have been shot at.

    Again, it is the perceived isolation. I have protected myself with cameras and a live feed, but the best that does is film my demise.

    I say this because...I get where some folks rightly do not understand some of the firearms issues...nor does it excuse unnecessary escalations...but until you've experienced the helplessness of having to hide while watching people steal your vehicle, gas, and other items...knowing full well that the 911 call you are on is useless, and you're trying to be quiet as you give someone in a call centre directions to a rural place she has never heard of...well...don't immediately write off the frustration as rednecks liking to go bang bang...
    We used to get poachers pulling all the fish out of the creek during their spring runs. (Strip mining with no thought towards the environment.) One year the warden caught them in the act but they grabbed him and threw him in the creek. Those were the good old days.

  50. #50

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    Corbella: Crime epidemic leaves rural families frightened at home | Calgary Herald

    http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...in-their-homes

  51. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    a go fund me was setup for the okotoks land owner. Their hoping to raise $100k. Assuming he raises this amount it will entice other land owners to shoot knowing theyll cash in if there is an issue.
    Quite the gamble. So I highly doubt anyone would make that assumption.
    I don't think so. People are fed up. People don't want to be the one to set the example but their willing to support those who do.

  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    okotoks has an rcmp division in town and within minutes of the guys home and the guy shot the thief.... that's a major problem.

    It's an interesting debate that will escalate over the next little while... better laws are needed to protect home owners but what would those laws look like?
    A common sense approach is this. A land owner who is being victimized is not the one who created the situation. They didn't decide that they're going to shoot someone today. The perpetrator is the one who brought things on themselves, yet it seems they get more protection than the people they prey upon. Bottomline; you don't want to be shot? Then don't come onto other people's property and start stealing things or doing whatever else. They are not mindreaders whom will try and gather your intentions should you be caught in the act, are they going to run or are they planning on bashing my skull in with that pry bar? I'm not going to wait around to find out.

  53. #53

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    so while we are at it security guards at malls should shoot thieves dead or police can execute anyone they want moving forward over any crime?

    There's problems with your solution. We cant say a guy 2 minutes out of town can shoot someone when someone in the city isn't allowed....

    I can understand the emotion behind a home owner shooting a thief but where do we draw the lines? Thats why the laws are what they are.

  54. #54
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    When I see on the news that the suspect was shot dead I think right on. Saves court and jail expenses which runs into the hundreds of thousands for each one of them. Long term incarceration can even be millions in costs, for one person. Each prisoner in Canada's 54 federal penitentiaries costs taxpayers $117,788 a year in 2013, up 46% from a decade earlier says a new report. ( Likely 150Gs in 2018 ). A federal public safety ministry document says federal corrections spending reached a peak of $2.7 billion in 2013, or $1.1 billion more than in 2002-2003. This is only in house expenses not including the courts and many out of house costs.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 03-03-2018 at 11:14 AM.

  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Hollywood View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    okotoks has an rcmp division in town and within minutes of the guys home and the guy shot the thief.... that's a major problem.

    It's an interesting debate that will escalate over the next little while... better laws are needed to protect home owners but what would those laws look like?
    A common sense approach is this. A land owner who is being victimized is not the one who created the situation. They didn't decide that they're going to shoot someone today. The perpetrator is the one who brought things on themselves, yet it seems they get more protection than the people they prey upon. Bottomline; you don't want to be shot? Then don't come onto other people's property and start stealing things or doing whatever else. They are not mindreaders whom will try and gather your intentions should you be caught in the act, are they going to run or are they planning on bashing my skull in with that pry bar? I'm not going to wait around to find out.
    We live in a winter environment. Often times unintended visits to rural properties or farms are people that might have had a broken down vehicle and who are trying to walk or find shelter so that they don't freeze to death waiting for AMA to arrive on a blizzard day. Which is often several hours and even for situations described.

    Myself I have emergency provisions in the car to save me in such cases but In Urban and outlying areas its not uncommon for people to be driving around without proper clothing, blankets in car etc. Many people could not survive one hour in a break down in what they are dressed in. Stupidity exists but it shouldn't be consequenced with a bullet in the head or death from exposure for fear of walking up to a doorway for help. If we become that society, what, truly, are we? just saying.

    There is a quantum difference between southern US states practicing castle defense, alarm and suspect, and shoot first tendency vs residents in a winter climate. This can't be understated relative to the Canadian climate.

    Even in the City on two different occasions we have had people come to our door in peril of the cold who required immediate assistance. In both instances it turned out to be a domestic dispute where a male and female allegedly got angry, had a fight, and the female then got out of the car or was made to get out.

    As a homeowner in a winter country I always have it in mind that something like this could occur. In a few other instances we had a person sleeping in a shed or behind the garage. Part of having property is a realization that people in dire need of help may happen upon your property. This realization being even much more clear on rural properties where salvation and finding shelter are much harder to come by.
    Last edited by Replacement; 03-03-2018 at 11:25 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    I'm pretty sure people can tell the difference between people in need of help and some gangstas busting in and stealing your stuff. There is also communication going on. There are too many people being victimized by criminals these days and there should be more done to protect the victims rather than the criminals

  57. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I'm pretty sure people can tell the difference between people in need of help and some gangstas busting in and stealing your stuff. There is also communication going on. There are too many people being victimized by criminals these days and there should be more done to protect the victims rather than the criminals
    There are countless examples of someone shooting a loved one, even a spouse, daughter, son, friend, that they mistakenly thought was an intruder. These have occurred indoors, outdoors, rural, urban, its tragic, but it sure happens. Never unestimate fear reaction or that peoples judgement can be very cloudy if woken up, etc. Now with complete strangers the alarm bells go off no matter what they look like.

    One thing that occurs in the social media world is that every perceived fear and threat gets magnified and triggers reaction, excuse poor pun. But I do wonder how much this is related to increase in accidental shootings or if that's just a natural trend of more firearms and more people possessing them.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    a go fund me was setup for the okotoks land owner. Their hoping to raise $100k. Assuming he raises this amount it will entice other land owners to shoot knowing theyll cash in if there is an issue.
    Quite the gamble. So I highly doubt anyone would make that assumption.
    I don't think so. People are fed up. People don't want to be the one to set the example but their willing to support those who do.
    I agree with KC. This is a HUGE gamble. Self defense requires clear definition of impending harm. Most people know that you cannot simply start shooting at someone the second they cross a property line. ...well...at least in Canada...

    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    so while we are at it security guards at malls should shoot thieves dead or police can execute anyone they want moving forward over any crime?

    There's problems with your solution. We cant say a guy 2 minutes out of town can shoot someone when someone in the city isn't allowed....

    I can understand the emotion behind a home owner shooting a thief but where do we draw the lines? Thats why the laws are what they are.
    You draw the lines the same way a security guard would have the lines. Shooting requires a definition of immediate deadly harm to you...police cannot just blast away at someone running from them. Neither can you. A person claiming self defense needs to demonstrate that there is knowledge or easily verifiable suspicion that the assailant is armed, or intends serious/deadly harm to you. The law is pretty prescriptive. So, I'd say we shouldn't be drawing some of the lines you are drawing...just because someone is rural doesn't mean the law differs...because it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Hollywood View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    okotoks has an rcmp division in town and within minutes of the guys home and the guy shot the thief.... that's a major problem.

    It's an interesting debate that will escalate over the next little while... better laws are needed to protect home owners but what would those laws look like?
    A common sense approach is this. A land owner who is being victimized is not the one who created the situation. They didn't decide that they're going to shoot someone today. The perpetrator is the one who brought things on themselves, yet it seems they get more protection than the people they prey upon. Bottomline; you don't want to be shot? Then don't come onto other people's property and start stealing things or doing whatever else. They are not mindreaders whom will try and gather your intentions should you be caught in the act, are they going to run or are they planning on bashing my skull in with that pry bar? I'm not going to wait around to find out.
    We live in a winter environment. Often times unintended visits to rural properties or farms are people that might have had a broken down vehicle and who are trying to walk or find shelter so that they don't freeze to death waiting for AMA to arrive on a blizzard day. Which is often several hours and even for situations described.

    Myself I have emergency provisions in the car to save me in such cases but In Urban and outlying areas its not uncommon for people to be driving around without proper clothing, blankets in car etc. Many people could not survive one hour in a break down in what they are dressed in. Stupidity exists but it shouldn't be consequenced with a bullet in the head or death from exposure for fear of walking up to a doorway for help. If we become that society, what, truly, are we? just saying.

    There is a quantum difference between southern US states practicing castle defense, alarm and suspect, and shoot first tendency vs residents in a winter climate. This can't be understated relative to the Canadian climate.

    Even in the City on two different occasions we have had people come to our door in peril of the cold who required immediate assistance. In both instances it turned out to be a domestic dispute where a male and female allegedly got angry, had a fight, and the female then got out of the car or was made to get out.

    As a homeowner in a winter country I always have it in mind that something like this could occur. In a few other instances we had a person sleeping in a shed or behind the garage. Part of having property is a realization that people in dire need of help may happen upon your property. This realization being even much more clear on rural properties where salvation and finding shelter are much harder to come by.
    I pulled this quote in its entirety...sorry...but there are a couple of concerns.

    The conversation of, " if you don't want to get shot, don't come on the property" has issues. When I was living in Houston, a similar scenario that you describe happened...a drunk college kid stumbled onto a lawn and was killed by the homeowner. That is exactly the situation we want to avoid here. Houston has a large shoot first, ask questions later issue. So, you can't simply say don't trespass. Property lines out in rural anywhere are even harder to tell unless there is fencing. You can't just start shooting.

    As for the winter country piece, I'm sorry, it is pretty easy to see someone who is in vehicular distress vs someone coming onto your property with intent. I've seen both. The scared stranded winter motorist is not slinking around, they're ringing the doorbell and shouting HELLOOOOOO...or many other clues...

    The key here is that you don't run out brandishing a gun and start blasting warning shots, etc. You're escalating the situation. With security systems costing about as much as a good handgun, invest in the cameras first. Yes, you may lose your quad for a bit, but criminals hate cameras.

    Deadly force is only used when confronted with the threat of deadly force. Maybe I am lucky with the amount of Canadian/American military and police friends I've made over the years, but if you look at real self defense training, it is all about protecting your life while ensuring you gather the requisite evidence. Yes, when they invade your home and you are inside, you can defend if approached. You can't jump out of a closet and start shooting...well...you could but expect to be drug through the proverbial mud by the courts, the suspect's family, and the media. The key is that you must ensure that you are not the one going to jail...

    This is a complex and multi-faceted discussion that would take more time than text would allow. In short, the key in rural areas is isolation combined with response time. There are fewer witnesses on the crime itself, escape routes, etc.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  59. #59

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    You ruin the discussion for better property rights/home defense when you have people like drum bones who think it's as simple as murdering a thief.

    I don't think property owners understand they are their worst enemy on this topic.

    It is a complicated issue that needs better solutions but I don't think the govt will be acting until more people get shot.

  60. #60

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    I always wondered why the police don’t aim to wound rather than aim to kill. They are highly trained.



    Calgary police use-of-force policies to go under review | Calgary Herald

    http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...calgary-police

    Police shoot dead Kansas man after 'swatting' prank sparked by Call of Duty row

    Several officers arrived and surrounded the home, braced for a hostage situation. When Mr Finch went to the door police told him to put his hands up and move slowly.

    But Livingston said the man moved a hand toward the area of his waistband - a common place where guns are concealed. An officer, fearing the man was reaching for a gun, fired a single shot. Mr Finch died a few minutes later at a hospital. Livingston said Mr Finch was unarmed.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ked-call-duty/
    Last edited by KC; 03-03-2018 at 05:15 PM.

  61. #61

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    Copper theft common across Alberta, can run to tens of thousands of dollars, say RCMP – Calgary Herald

    http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...berta-rcmp-say



    Last summer:
    Thieves steal $200,000 in copper wire, leave $1 million in damage to oilfield site

    'Thefts in the oilfield are a serious problem which creates a financial burden to companies'

    CBC News, July 27, 2017

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...heft-1.4225180

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I always wondered why the police don’t aim to wound rather than aim to kill. They are highly trained.



    Calgary police use-of-force policies to go under review | Calgary Herald

    http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...calgary-police

    Police shoot dead Kansas man after 'swatting' prank sparked by Call of Duty row

    Several officers arrived and surrounded the home, braced for a hostage situation. When Mr Finch went to the door police told him to put his hands up and move slowly.

    But Livingston said the man moved a hand toward the area of his waistband - a common place where guns are concealed. An officer, fearing the man was reaching for a gun, fired a single shot. Mr Finch died a few minutes later at a hospital. Livingston said Mr Finch was unarmed.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ked-call-duty/
    Because this isn't the movies where you just pick and hit whatever body part you want. When it comes to shooting someone you aim for the torso as it is the largest mass and thus equals your best chance of hitting the target. Unfortunately, some vital organs are in this region so people will die as a result.

  63. #63
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    Why did the UCP vote against the extra officers and other rural crime measures?
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  64. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Why did the UCP vote against the extra officers and other rural crime measures?
    Didn’t matter to them at the time is my guess. Their opinions have likely changed for now. All these parties tend towards reaction vs prevention - unless it’s prevention of their own job loss.

    “When they had the opportunity to fund RCMP salaries that fight rural crime, the UCP caucus voted no. Those are the wrong priorities for Albertans, especially in rural Alberta.” - Notley


    NDP calls foul on UCP rural crime vote | Politics | Rocky View Weekly

    “...
    “As a federal politician, Kenney let the funding for Alberta Law Enforcement Response Teams (ALERT), which targets organized crime, gang violence, fentanyl trafficking and child exploitation, lapse. The Alberta NDP restored ALERT funding in Alberta’s 2016 budget,” she said. “When they had the opportunity to fund RCMP salaries that fight rural crime, the UCP caucus voted no. Those are the wrong priorities for Albertans, especially in rural Alberta.”

    The province announced March 9 it would provide an additional $10 million to fight growing rural crime rates in the province. The government’s plan includes $8 million to hire 39 new RCMP officer positions and 40 civilian staff, and $2 million to hire up to 10 additional Crown prosecutors who will focus solely on rural crime.”

    http://www.rockyviewweekly.com/artic...-vote-20180327
    Bolding mine
    Last edited by KC; 22-04-2018 at 08:57 AM.

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Hollywood View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I always wondered why the police don’t aim to wound rather than aim to kill. They are highly trained.



    Calgary police use-of-force policies to go under review | Calgary Herald

    http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...calgary-police

    Police shoot dead Kansas man after 'swatting' prank sparked by Call of Duty row

    Several officers arrived and surrounded the home, braced for a hostage situation. When Mr Finch went to the door police told him to put his hands up and move slowly.

    But Livingston said the man moved a hand toward the area of his waistband - a common place where guns are concealed. An officer, fearing the man was reaching for a gun, fired a single shot. Mr Finch died a few minutes later at a hospital. Livingston said Mr Finch was unarmed.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ked-call-duty/
    Because this isn't the movies where you just pick and hit whatever body part you want. When it comes to shooting someone you aim for the torso as it is the largest mass and thus equals your best chance of hitting the target. Unfortunately, some vital organs are in this region so people will die as a result.
    Yes there’s many articles on the need to stop the threat - by police, only police. That’s the guidance and trying for those mostly likely to be able to use non-lethal methods. Interesting isn’t it.

  66. #66
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    "The RCMP will take our guns away!"
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  67. #67
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    Overreact much, oh, and they did that during the floods!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    "The RCMP will take our guns away!"

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