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Thread: Another school shooting - Florida - Valentine's Day 2018 - gun control in the USA

  1. #301
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    Watching a program about Russian jails last night I was surprised to learn that Russia's murder rate is double that of the United States. Wow

  2. #302
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    What the world dies from

    I am surprised this has not come up here. This is as close to an independent and empirical study as I can find to date listing out, by nation or area, what people die from. Click above.

    This even goes on to address points like natural disasters and gun violence.

    However, this conversation on C2E has been spewing things for awhile. I invite you all to read this link and make your own opinions.

    For example, worldwide, the death rate in 2016 was ~55 million according to this site.
    ...nearly half of these were aged 70 years or older; 27% aged 50-69; 15% aged 15-49; only 1% aged 5-14; and around 10% were children under the age of 5.
    By far, worldwide, Cardiovascular and Cancer were the killers.

    Homicide (0.71%) was well down the list - suicide was higher.

    "Terrorism" was even lower. ~35000 globally. Percentage wise 0.06%

    Now the USA. One could correlate school or mass shootings as either terrorism or homicide. My guess is it would be lumped into homicide.

    Homicide was 18,271 or 0.66% of the deaths in the country. Statistically, percentage wise, on par globally.

    Terrorism and why I think school shootings are homicides in this chart), the deaths were 66 people, or <0.01%. Much lower than global...which begs another discussion on terrorism concerns in the US...but that is another conversation.

    Cardio and Cancer combined are similar.

    So, with all this angst, what are the numbers really saying? See for yourself. Look at other counties that do have stricter gun controls that have significantly higher homicide rates than the USA. MrOilers brings up Mexico. Looking at the numbers provided in this chart, he would be correct. Homicides at 3.2% are higher than suicides at 1.13%. Again, not taking sides, just presenting a view.

    I get it. I empathize. A mass shooting is more fearful than cancer and cardio because this event takes the decision/eventual death 100% out of the hands of the victim. It is not a car accident. It is not bad eating habits. It is not risky behaviour. It is domestic terrorism, and actually where I would prefer that stat to be placed so that it is highlighted.

    But, percentage wise and numerically, you are more likely to kill yourself than others, and significantly more than likely to die of your own maltreatment of your heart, lungs, pancreas, etc. ...and other areas with either economic issues with access to base necessities to food let alone guns, or with strict gun controls, can have higher per capita homicide rates. It doesn't necessarily mean a 1:1 correlation to murder being gun...that is true.

    It is also true that a large clip, semi auto gun will do more damage. However, given the number of guns and the low homicide rate overall, you cannot completely dismiss the claims that it is more people than the tool.

    The deeper you dive into data and leave the rhetoric aside, the clearer the conversation becomes. My opinion, focus on stricter background and mental health checks. Limit magazine size (seriously, an AR-15 for hunting??? What are you going for - in field hamburger???). Place higher calibre semi autos on a restricted list like Canada. Canada, for the most part, has some pretty good controls overall. ...at least that is a good starting point, and the constitutional challenges could at least have a sensible starting point.

    ..but then, I am the guy who's main rifle is a WInchester 1894 - built in 1896 - and the other guns are not much newer. They are my Great Grandfather's and Grandfather's (his M1917 eddy service rifle). I've bought 2 others, but lever actions, 200 yard 30/30's are all I need. Anything else is just stupid - IMO.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Watching a program about Russian jails last night I was surprised to learn that Russia's murder rate is double that of the United States. Wow
    Homicide ~1.23% USA 0.66%

    again, to be fair, this does not on its own represent numeric equivalencies Russia had ~25000 and US has ~19000

    Russia has a huge heart problem...insert jokes at will.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    (...)

    in terms of mexico’s tougher gun laws, there is a difference between having them and enforcing them.

    (...).
    I will leave the rest of your conversation with MrOilers alone, and point this one out.

    Yes. Having v enforcing is an issue. It also would be the same in the USA. Many law enforcement personnel advocate for 2ndA rights, and acquisition. They simultaneously advocate for more background checks. I would wonder if the enforcement would be strict, or some states would just look the other way...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  5. #305
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    RichardS,

    those are interesting statistics but, while accurate, i’m not sure how appropriate they are in terms of this discussion.

    some if that concern comes from our obsession with attribution and cause. at some point, as noted, we are all going to die. at one point most of us died of old age. now, regardless of how long a life we’ve led, we all die “of” something.

    for these kinds of statistical percentages to have any real value, they should be presented by decade, not by life. by that, i mean for the first 10 years of life, these would be the percentage outcomes including the percentage odds of not dying and then do the same for each subsequent 10 years.

    to equate and try and compare the percentage chance of dying of prostrate cancer at age 87 with the percentage chance of being shot at age 17 is meaningless. comparing the percentage chance of dying of prostrate cancer or being shot at age 17 or comparing them at age 87 is a much different and more meaningful measure of risk and appropriate responses.
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  6. #306
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    I would disagree, and if you delve deeper into the link, they actually address this and natural disasters.

    But, as the stats lay out, at 17, are you seriously more at risk for a shooting than say...

    • impaired driving
    • risky activities (high speed driving, backcountry skiing)
    • one on one crime
    • suicide (statistically in North America a huge issue over homicide)...this one is HUGE by comparison...


    anecdotally...and maybe I am dating myself or being too egocentric...I have attended far more funerals for young people (my stepsister at 17 included) as the result of car accidents, impaired driving, drug overdoses, and suicide...and not one due to gun violence. Both in the US and Canada...

    Not saying that gun deaths are not horrid, but my step sister was killed in a crash that was not her doing, not her fault. She was a passenger. We buried a shoulder blade...that's it.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  7. #307

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    Yeah, don't expect much from the White House beyond regurgitating the NRA talking points.

    Trump praises NRA leaders as 'great American patriots'

    The president, who vowed to "come through" for the NRA at its annual conference last year, said he believed the organization would "do the right thing" in the wake of the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, where a gunman killed 17 and injured more than a dozen.


    "What many people don’t understand, or don’t want to understand, is that Wayne, Chris and the folks who work so hard at the @NRA are Great People and Great American Patriots," Trump tweeted in reference to Wayne LaPierre and Chris Cox, the NRA's executive vice president and its executive director for legislative action, respectively.


    The president added: "They love our Country and will do the right thing."

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...21656?lo=ap_b1
    And what was this patriot talking about today at CPAC? What he refuses to accept is that the people that the children need to be protected from are the people that the NRA is protecting.


    NRA's Wayne LaPierre at CPAC: Gun Control Advocates Are Exploiting the Florida School Shooting Tragedy


    “As usual, the opportunists waited not one second to exploit tragedy for political gain,” LaPierre said during CPAC, the annual gathering of conservative activists and Republican leaders in National Harbor, Md. “Chris Murphy, Nancy Pelosi, and more, cheered on by the national media, eager to blame the NRA and call for more government control.”


    “They hate the NRA,” LaPierre said.”The elites don’t care one wit about school children. If they truly cared, they would protect them.”

    ---

    “It’s not a safety issue, it’s a political issue,” LaPierre said. “They care more about control. Their goal is to eliminate the Second Amendment and our firearms freedoms so they can eliminate all individual freedoms.”

    http://time.com/5169511/nra-wayne-lapierre-cpac-speech/

  8. #308
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    You can't say the NRA is protecting these people from not having weapons. I'm sure these guys hate this happening as much as anyone. I'm sure everyone in the NRA wishes someone would have shot this fuqur before he killed. I'm against all these military type guns around yet I have guns. That doesn't mean I support someone using one for murder. If someone runs into a crowd with a Ford truck killing dozens doesn't make me a bad guy for owning a Ford. If my neighbor kills his wife with a baseball bat doesn't mean I'm a bad guy for having two in my closet for summer fun.

  9. #309

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    The backlash is growing.
    Three major car rental companies dump the NRA

    Until Thursday, Enterprise Holdings, which operates Enterprise, Alamo, and National, had a partnership with the NRA to provide discounts to members of the gun lobby. The discounts were available to NRA members once they paid the $40 annual fee, and the companies were among the 22 corporations offering discounts and “five star savings” to the gun lobby’s members.


    On Thursday, however, all three brands announced that they would be ending the program on March 26.

    https://thinkprogress.org/alamo-nati...-35d326965744/

  10. #310

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    I like how Trump, Republicans and the NRA say that shooters pick schools that are soft targets

    Fort Hood was hit twice and they have 1,000 military police on the high security military base
    Virginia Tech, 3rd worst mass shooting in the US had 60+ full time Campus Police on staff


    Trump and the Republicans just want to hide behind the NRA talking points



    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...ones-full-data
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  11. #311

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    You can't say the NRA is protecting these people from not having weapons. I'm sure these guys hate this happening as much as anyone. I'm sure everyone in the NRA wishes someone would have shot this fuqur before he killed. I'm against all these military type guns around yet I have guns. That doesn't mean I support someone using one for murder. If someone runs into a crowd with a Ford truck killing dozens doesn't make me a bad guy for owning a Ford. If my neighbor kills his wife with a baseball bat doesn't mean I'm a bad guy for having two in my closet for summer fun.
    They are opposed to pretty much any form of gun control. They oppose expanded background checks. They oppose ending the "gun show loophole" where a purchase from a private buyer doesn't have to get a background check. As you can see from the quotes fro NRA chairman Wayne LaPierre I posted in #307, they see any sort of dialog about any form as gun control as an attack on "freedom".

    When there is a mass shooting, gun sales go up. The firearms companies make money off of these tragedies and donate more to the NRA. They don't have the "Obama/Hillary is going to take your guns" red flag to wave any more. So now, it's "They're going to get rid of the second amendment and take all your guns" rhetoric right after someone with a gun originally designed for the military was used to kill 14 student snd 3 others in a school.

    They may not be saying "Go shoot up a school" but they sure as hell aren't interested. in anything other that telling people to buy more guns.

    Look at it this way. Trump is suggesting that 20% of teachers should be armed. There's 3.2 million public school teachers in the US. Assuming that the schools would want control of the guns in the classrooms, that's a purchase of 640,000 more guns. Going for a handgun for ease of use, a Glock costs an average of ~$550.00. That's $352,000,000. Damn right they want more guns sold.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    You can't say the NRA is protecting these people from not having weapons. I'm sure these guys hate this happening as much as anyone. I'm sure everyone in the NRA wishes someone would have shot this fuqur before he killed. I'm against all these military type guns around yet I have guns. That doesn't mean I support someone using one for murder. If someone runs into a crowd with a Ford truck killing dozens doesn't make me a bad guy for owning a Ford. If my neighbor kills his wife with a baseball bat doesn't mean I'm a bad guy for having two in my closet for summer fun.
    ...the problem comes in when they start advocating for automatic weapons, armour piercing rounds, no background checks...fighting some common sense items.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  13. #313
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    I agree with all of it. The military equipment must stop or at least be tightly controlled. I liked Roberto Luongos speech at the game tonight. He lives in Parkland and his kids go to school in Parkland.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 22-02-2018 at 10:10 PM.

  14. #314

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    And where did the idea of "Well regulated militias" come from?

    The Second Amendment was ratified to preserve slavery

    In the beginning, there were the militias. In the South, they were also called the “slave patrols,” and they were regulated by the states.


    In Georgia, for example, a generation before the American Revolution, laws were passed in 1755 and 1757 that required all plantation owners or their male white employees to be members of the Georgia Militia, and for those armed militia members to make monthly inspections of the quarters of all slaves in the state. The law defined which counties had which armed militias and even required armed militia members to keep a keen eye out for slaves who may be planning uprisings.


    As Dr. Carl T. Bogus wrote for the University of California Law Review in 1998, “The Georgia statutes required patrols, under the direction of commissioned militia officers, to examine every plantation each month and authorized them to search ‘all Negro Houses for offensive Weapons and Ammunition’ and to apprehend and give twenty lashes to any slave found outside plantation grounds.”

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/sec...serve-slavery/

  15. #315

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    You can't solve a problem if you don't allow researchers to study the problem.

    Gun violence research by the government hasn't been funded in two decades.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.b279bb15e181

    There's a move to reverse a 22-year-old restriction on how the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention can fund gun-related research — which has essentially created a situation in which policymakers have very little up-to-date data about what causes gun violence or how it can be prevented or reduced.

    Under the “Dickey amendment” -- named after former congressman Jay Dickey, an Arkansas Republican who was a strong NRA ally -- the the CDC can’t use money to “advocate or promote gun control.” While the amendment doesn’t explicitly ban research on gun violence, it has had a chilling ripple effect on federal agencies beyond the CDC and even on privately funded research across the country.
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    ok then...since the article exactly says that the Dickey amendment does not prohibit the CDC from studying it, one can creatively study it without advocating directly for gun control.

    ...but seriously, with the uproar, you don't need the CDC to do the study. Are you telling me many universities don't have the skills to study exactly the same? Is the Post suggesting they haven't?


    ...yes, I know the Post's article is deliberately framed to make the amendment look as goofy as it rightly does...but I see people here pulling stats and research out daily...and this is just C2E. The problem has been studied to (forgive the pun) death.

    The real issue here is the lobbying efforts and a deep culture of gun ownership. America was founded by the gun, expanded by the gun, and believes it is protected by the gun.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  17. #317

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I would disagree, and if you delve deeper into the link, they actually address this and natural disasters.

    But, as the stats lay out, at 17, are you seriously more at risk for a shooting than say...

    • impaired driving
    • risky activities (high speed driving, backcountry skiing)
    • one on one crime
    • suicide (statistically in North America a huge issue over homicide)...this one is HUGE by comparison...


    anecdotally...and maybe I am dating myself or being too egocentric...I have attended far more funerals for young people (my stepsister at 17 included) as the result of car accidents, impaired driving, drug overdoses, and suicide...and not one due to gun violence. Both in the US and Canada...

    Not saying that gun deaths are not horrid, but my step sister was killed in a crash that was not her doing, not her fault. She was a passenger. We buried a shoulder blade...that's it.
    But how many of those suicides attended may have been from gunshot? Suicide by gun is the most common method, and most lethal method obviously, and the most frequent method by males.

    https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazin.../guns-suicide/

    Its an important point because without lethal means (by gunshot) the vast majority of suicide attempts are not lethal and that people that have attempted often go on to live long lives. Again the guns take those lives away.

    You're stating your anecdotal experience vs stats that show more people die by suicide by gun than by homicide.
    That is significant in the statistical discussion. Not sure why you would exclude, or not consider that (it often doesn't occur to people in a cursory glance at numbers) when the total of death by guns should clearly include all deaths by guns. . In terms of the sidebar gun control conversation ALL deaths by Gun should be tallied and so suicide by gun plus homicide by gun.

    Next, the quid pro argument that more people die by other means may seem meaningful to you. Its not much more than obfuscation. Its the basic we die anyway argument so why do anything. (not saying that you are doing that, just that its a common enough angle that is used to explain away tragic deaths, for instance by guns) We seek to limit deaths that are tragically preventable because they are so preventable. That they are UNNECESSARY deaths.

    Next, more interesting stats are death by cause by age. We generally find it more tragic for young people to die than for people that have already lived a full and meaningful life. So that a lot of the deaths by advanced age causes are due to general mortality. Tragic, any death is, but more considered part of the life cycle.

    I do side with you in feeling that death by vehicle and death by gun results in somewhat similar wakes. They also represent such a high amount of deaths by young people as well as suicide. Basically parents saying good bye to their youth in the morning and never seeing them alive again. I type that specifically because that is the greatest hit any parent can have. I've worked victims services. I've had to go along with Police to tell parents their child is dead. I can't even describe the reactions to that. The trauma, the life long tears, in the cases of preventable death the pain and suffering is so much, worse. In the case of deaths through disease people generally at least get a chance to say good bye, to prepare for death, to come to some acceptance. I don't know that we can look at numbers and say its comparable. That statistical counts don't ever give us any look at all of overall tragedy, harm, grief, caused by specific causes.

    I note one other factor that isn't leaping out of the page on some of these listed stats to the degree that they are represented but deaths by overdose (particularly by Opioids) are of course skyrocketing. (I believe these are included in the catch all category of "Drug disorders" but given the exponential growth probably warrant their own clearly demarked category). These are similarly tragic to car accidents, suicides, homicides, and yet are a sinister and quieter type of death. One that much more commonly escapes the news, a quiet epidemic if you will. Traumatic for parents as well in that along with suicide, death by overdose invariably involves the parents even being blamed for the deaths by some, or blaming themselves, or each other as parents.

    I wanted to respond to your post Richard and then got caught up in wanting to make the numbers a bit more real. To go into the trauma a bit and that not all deaths are similarly tragic. Not sure if my post is very clear. Its also a very emotional conversation for me as it is for many people.
    Last edited by Replacement; 23-02-2018 at 07:18 AM.
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  18. #318

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    Let me be clear...

    NRA breaks silence after Parkland school shooting to attack teenage survivors, law enforcement and media


    NRA VP really said: 'They don't care about our school children. They want to make all of us less free'

    "Do we really love our money and our celebrities more than we love our children?" Vice President of the NRA Wayne LaPierre
    The NRA chief warned the packed ballroom: “You should be anxious and you should be frightened. If these so-called European socialists take over the House and the Senate and, God forbid, they win the White House again our American freedoms could be lost and our country will be changed forever, and the first to go will be the second amendment to the US constitution” – the right to bear arms.
    He ended his speech, which was met with a standing ovation, by repeating the notorious mantra he had issued after the Sandy Hook school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, in 2012: “To stop a bad guy with a gun, it takes a good guy with a gun.”
    Note: The good guy with the gun, never went into the school because he was scared. Scared because the NRA enabled a person to have a gun 10 times more lethal than his police issued handgun

    "There is no greater personal individual freedom than the right to keep and bear arms, the right to protect yourself, and the right to survive," stated LaPierre.

    "It's not bestowed by man, but granted by God to all Americans as our American birthright. So I call right now today on every citizen who loves this country and who treasures this freedom to stand and unflinchingly defend the Second Amendment, the one freedom that protects us all."
    As far as I read, God had a list and number 5 on that list is; Thou shall not kill.

    And Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    No mention by God, "If you are an American, I bless you with an AR-15 with a night scope, Magpul CTR carbine stock, Accu-Tac Tank II Muzzle Brake, Bushnell TRS-25 HiRise AR-15 Red Dot Sight and five 100 round magazines loaded with Armscor USA .223 Rem 55 Grain Hornady V-Max 3050 fps Ammunition, a Voodoo Armor Carrier Maximum Protection bullet proof vest and an NRA endorsed official Trump Brand "Make America Great Again" Republican, Blood Red Baseball Cap, Made in China.


    What the NRA VP Wayne LaPierre really said: 'The NRA doesn't care about your school children. The NRA want to make all of us less free and fearful, behind locked schools and armed to the teeth because gun manufacturers need more sales'


    "The NRA really love our money and love our AR-15's more than we love our children" Vice President of the NRA Wayne LaPierre
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 23-02-2018 at 07:21 AM.
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  19. #319

  20. #320

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    It's always got to be about him. I guess he forgot his empathy crib notes during the call.

    Parkland Survivor: 'I've Never Been So Unimpressed By A Person' After Trump Call

    Samantha Fuentes, a senior at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School― where a former student killed 17 people after opening fire on the campus― was at the hospital when the president called her. Fuentes, who was shot twice, told The New York Times that the president “didn’t make me feel better in the slightest.”


    “He said he heard that I was a big fan of his, and then he said, ‘I’m a big fan of yours too.’ I’m pretty sure he made that up,” she told the Times. “Talking to the president, I’ve never been so unimpressed by a person in my life.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/p...b01e9e56ba318a

  21. #321
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    Some teachers have concealed weapons in Utah. When was the last mass shooting in their schools?

  22. #322

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    Do they mention that in Utah, a teacher in an elementary school accidentally shot herself in the leg in the school’s bathroom?

    Do they mention that parents are not allowed to ask teachers of their children if he or she is carrying a gun in the classroom? You know, "if you are carrying the gun, you have the right to restrict free speech of those not carrying a gun" rule...
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 23-02-2018 at 07:27 AM.
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  23. #323

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    How many shootings at schools where there are not armed teachers?

    Arming teachers is acknowledging that the people with guns are the ones in charge. Everyone else must react to them. That's giving them even more power than everyone else.

  24. #324

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  25. #325

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    Apparently it takes more than two "good guys with guns" to take out a "bad guy with a gun".

    On February 2, 2013, Kyle and his friend, Chad Littlefield, 35, were shot and killed by Eddie Ray Routh at the Rough Creek Ranch-Lodge-Resort shooting range in Erath County, Texas.[48] Both Kyle and Littlefield were armed with .45-caliber 1911-style pistols when they were killed, but neither gun had been unholstered or fired, and the safety catches were still on. Kyle was killed with a .45-caliber pistol, while Littlefield was shot with a 9mm SIG Sauer pistol.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Kyle


  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    If someone runs into a crowd with a Ford truck killing dozens doesn't make me a bad guy for owning a Ford. If my neighbor kills his wife with a baseball bat doesn't mean I'm a bad guy for having two in my closet for summer fun.
    Thats a **** poor analogy, you could have said that about any number of household items. A truck was designed for transportation, and a baseball bat for sports. A gun was designed for injuring or killing living things.

  27. #327

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    did it ever occur to you that the sheer number of guns in the usa and the ready access to them that americans have is the very reason the usa is an outlier for all crime???
    Of course not. I think that's a silly correlation to make. Guns aren't used in all crimes.

    After all, crime is even higher in Mexico, despite Mexico having tougher gun laws than the USA.
    sooo... let me get this straight...

    there is no point in comparing the results of gun control elsewhere with events in the usa because, as you have pointed out many times. the us is an outlier for all crime.

    but, as you now want to point out, crime is even higher in mexico. would that not mean the us is not the outlier you represent when it suits your argument?

    in terms of mexico’s tougher gun laws, there is a difference between having them and enforcing them.

    ps. please stop truncating/editing my posts without at least indicating that you have truncated/edited my posts after quoting them.

    The USA is an outlier for all crime among DEVELOPED countries. Yes, crime is higher in Mexico (and in many other countries), and they have tougher gun laws in the USA. This is largely due to inability of them to enforce their laws. Judging by crime stats, I think the USA has that same problem, too (but to a lesser degree).

    PS - When I quote your posts, I only quote the parts of your posts that I am answering/commenting to. I've been doing that (when quoting things on this forum) since forever. Sorry it bothers you so much.

  28. #328

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    Quote Originally Posted by lobbdogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    If someone runs into a crowd with a Ford truck killing dozens doesn't make me a bad guy for owning a Ford. If my neighbor kills his wife with a baseball bat doesn't mean I'm a bad guy for having two in my closet for summer fun.
    Thats a **** poor analogy, you could have said that about any number of household items. A truck was designed for transportation, and a baseball bat for sports. A gun was designed for injuring or killing living things.
    A gun is designed for shooting targets (that's what I use mine for, as do the great majority of gun owners). I've never shot a person (nor an animal) with it.

  29. #329

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Do they mention that in Utah, a teacher in an elementary school accidentally shot herself in the leg in the school’s bathroom?
    Yes, and the media lies and counts that as a "school shooting". Same way they call that 31-year-old who shot himself in his car in a school parking lot after hours. And the time a grade 3 kid tried to grab a cop's gun in the classroom and it accidentally discharged (without hitting anyone), and that was also counted, along with these others, as one of CNN's "18 school shootings so far in 2018".

    The gun death stats are gerrymandered like crazy. The number of gun deaths don't lie, but anti-gun activists (including ones in the media) sure do.

  30. #330

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    Heck; they banned Lawn Darts and Kinder Surprize in the US. If you are caught bringing a Kinder Surprize into the US you can be fined up to $15,000.00.










    Last edited by Admin; 23-02-2018 at 09:23 AM. Reason: removed lawn dart comparison. Just because it is a picture does not mean that expletives are suddenly allowed.
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  31. #331

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    Trump is on TV this morning using the EXACT same NRA talking points "we protect our airports, our banks and jewelry stores"

    Trump continues blaming the mental health issues, the FBI and gun free zones. I guess since the majority of shooting happen in the home, that we have to arm every home.



    National Rifle Association chief executive Wayne LaPierre Thursday
    "It's a bizarre fact that jewelry stores all over this country are more important than our children; our banks, our airports, our NBA games, our NFL games, our office buildings, our movie stars, our politicians, are all more protected than our children at school."
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 23-02-2018 at 09:01 AM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  32. #332

    Default

    The hypocrisy, it burns.

    Trump trashes gun-free schools at CPAC 2018 — where people aren’t allowed to bring in guns

    During a section of his talk about the massacre in Parkland, Florida last week, the president said that having gun-free zones made students less safe and reiterated his calls for some teachers to be armed with guns in classrooms.


    “If this guy thought that other people would be shooting bullets back at him, he wouldn’t have gone to that school,” Trump said of Parkland shooter Nikolas Cruz. “He wouldn’t have gone there. It’s a gun free zone. It says this the gun free zone.”


    Despite the president’s attacks on gun-free zones, people attending CPAC are not allowed to bring guns with them into the conference.

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/tru...ed-bring-guns/

  33. #333
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    Please forgive the lengthy quote wall, but I want to address your remarks this way. Not that I am upset as you raise points I struggle with too, but for clarity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

    But how many of those suicides attended may have been from gunshot? Suicide by gun is the most common method, and most lethal method obviously, and the most frequent method by males.

    https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazin.../guns-suicide/

    Its an important point because without lethal means (by gunshot) the vast majority of suicide attempts are not lethal and that people that have attempted often go on to live long lives. Again the guns take those lives away.
    I would definitely agree that gun suicide is the most common and...forgive the word...successful form. Nowhere did I deny that. However, the key here in a lot of discussion is assault weapons, mass shootings, etc. That is also the key in the statistics I was bringing up. Most suicides that I research are done by the easiest accessible weapon, or gravity. It only takes one shot. Fair enough, and this leads to the mental health issues conversation. The RCMP form for the PAL goes into suicidal thoughts, and then your medical history is brought up during the background check. In no way was I minimizing the issue of suicide by gun; rather, making the point that you are often your own worst enemy...gun or no.

    You're stating your anecdotal experience vs stats that show more people die by suicide by gun than by homicide.
    Actually, I am saying the stats back up that my anecdotal experience is that suicide is a far greater cause of death, gun or no.

    That is significant in the statistical discussion. Not sure why you would exclude, or not consider that (it often doesn't occur to people in a cursory glance at numbers) when the total of death by guns should clearly include all deaths by guns. . In terms of the sidebar gun control conversation ALL deaths by Gun should be tallied and so suicide by gun plus homicide by gun.
    I agree. I didn't exclude it, and the link I sent addresses issues such as this in their subsequent research.

    Next, the quid pro argument that more people die by other means may seem meaningful to you. Its not much more than obfuscation. Its the basic we die anyway argument so why do anything. (not saying that you are doing that, just that its a common enough angle that is used to explain away tragic deaths, for instance by guns) We seek to limit deaths that are tragically preventable because they are so preventable. That they are UNNECESSARY deaths.
    ...and if you actually read what I said, I mention this. I presented the stats as food for thought, not as a diatribe against gun control. Nowhere have I suggested this, only you've made the correlation. That is the key issue I have with this debate. I see the same people with meme after linked article to some blogger after rant making direct correlations when they don't exist, and I expected it here. I said that the reason why mass shootings are so horrid. My words were...

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    I get it. I empathize. A mass shooting is more fearful than cancer and cardio because this event takes the decision/eventual death 100% out of the hands of the victim. It is not a car accident. It is not bad eating habits. It is not risky behaviour. It is domestic terrorism, and actually where I would prefer that stat to be placed so that it is highlighted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    Next, more interesting stats are death by cause by age. We generally find it more tragic for young people to die than for people that have already lived a full and meaningful life. So that a lot of the deaths by advanced age causes are due to general mortality. Tragic, any death is, but more considered part of the life cycle.
    again...agree...and as a cancer survivor I can tell you that the +21 people who died around me the year I was in the Cross, the youth deaths were absolutely heartbreaking. I still remember those faces clearly. Yes, there were the 90+ year olds and the 40+ year old 30 year smokers....and yes the deaths were sad...but a 5 year old boy with retinoblastoma....or young girls/boys with Ewing's...I need to stop thinking about it before I break down in a blubbering mess just typing...

    I do side with you in feeling that death by vehicle and death by gun results in somewhat similar wakes. They also represent such a high amount of deaths by young people as well as suicide. Basically parents saying good bye to their youth in the morning and never seeing them alive again. I type that specifically because that is the greatest hit any parent can have. I've worked victims services. I've had to go along with Police to tell parents their child is dead. I can't even describe the reactions to that. The trauma, the life long tears, in the cases of preventable death the pain and suffering is so much, worse. In the case of deaths through disease people generally at least get a chance to say good bye, to prepare for death, to come to some acceptance. I don't know that we can look at numbers and say its comparable. That statistical counts don't ever give us any look at all of overall tragedy, harm, grief, caused by specific causes.
    True, they don't.

    I note one other factor that isn't leaping out of the page on some of these listed stats to the degree that they are represented but deaths by overdose (particularly by Opioids) are of course skyrocketing. (I believe these are included in the catch all category of "Drug disorders" but given the exponential growth probably warrant their own clearly demarked category). These are similarly tragic to car accidents, suicides, homicides, and yet are a sinister and quieter type of death. One that much more commonly escapes the news, a quiet epidemic if you will. Traumatic for parents as well in that along with suicide, death by overdose invariably involves the parents even being blamed for the deaths by some, or blaming themselves, or each other as parents.
    Yes. Yes. Yes.

    I wanted to respond to your post Richard and then got caught up in wanting to make the numbers a bit more real. To go into the trauma a bit and that not all deaths are similarly tragic. Not sure if my post is very clear. Its also a very emotional conversation for me as it is for many people.
    I agree, and I appreciate you taking the time. That is what is missing in this meme/chart/filter bubble posting fest.

    The over-arching issues in the statistics represented by global deaths is a multi-faceted issue. That is the requisite hypothesis I was trying to present. Yes, gun violence is extreme, and the decision by one deranged individual to take multiple lives is reprehensible. That is absolutely a pain that cannot be rationalized unlike Grandpa dying after a full life, or a heart attack of Mom at 45, or a seemingly healthy and clean living person getting cancer. I even mentioned that I would rather see mass shootings put into the "terrorism" column, and maybe even "domestic terrorism". I agree and believe that these types of death should be further delineated.

    If I were to make a thesis statement, it would be, "While the amount of carnage and death by mass shootings is small by statistical comparison, it is the juxtaposition of the type, vicious nature, and completely unnecessary actions that caused the death that should be further qualified. "...or something like that...

    That said, and right now I only have what I read and anecdotal life experience to augment, I still hypothesize that the number of unfortunate, tragic, sudden deaths by auto accidents due to careless driving, DUI, etc will be significant. The amount of effort that goes into curbing these instances, vs some concrete measures to do the same with weaponry, is a glaring contradiction that the NRA cannot defend against...but stupidly tries.

    One thing is also glaring. People here may not understand just how deep the gun culture is in the USA. When I lived there, it was surprising just how many guns were out there. Again, the vast majority were not homicidal maniacs...and those that puffed up their chests in some self defense, I am Rambo motif got laughter from me as I know that being shot at is scary. I referenced a classic Blazing Saddles line...where Gene Wilder shows his vibrating shooting hand. This is exactly what would happen to most folks... That said, again, people need to understand the monumental task this will be for the US. A full ban on guns, a full removal of semi automatic weapons like Australia, or banning just pistols won't happen anytime soon. Even Canadian-style regulations (I'd say a good place to start, but that's just me)...would have a hard time getting through. All I am trying to do by engaging is outline just how different the US is when it comes to this. It was founded by the gun, expanded by the gun, and the allegation is that it is currently defended by the gun. That combined with their art of patriotism to the extreme...well...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  34. #334
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    Concealed carry is NOT about arming people who are not comfortable with it.

  35. #335

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    Given that concealed carry has gone up at least 300% in the US in the last decade, it doesn't really look like it's about public safety either.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  36. #336

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    It was founded by the gun, expanded by the gun, and the allegation is that it is currently defended by the gun. That combined with their art of patriotism to the extreme...well...
    I know you are not for semi-automatic weapons but the American exceptionalism card is a very weak argument.

    As if Germany has no gun history or France or Austria....



    They evolved...

    Even though they have a history of many more threats from their neighbours without two oceans to protect their borders from invasion. As far as I have checked, Canada has not invaded and burned down the White House in 200 years.

    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 23-02-2018 at 11:23 AM.
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  37. #337

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Please forgive the lengthy quote wall, but I want to address your remarks this way. Not that I am upset as you raise points I struggle with too, but for clarity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

    But how many of those suicides attended may have been from gunshot? Suicide by gun is the most common method, and most lethal method obviously, and the most frequent method by males.

    https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazin.../guns-suicide/

    Its an important point because without lethal means (by gunshot) the vast majority of suicide attempts are not lethal and that people that have attempted often go on to live long lives. Again the guns take those lives away.
    I would definitely agree that gun suicide is the most common and...forgive the word...successful form. Nowhere did I deny that. However, the key here in a lot of discussion is assault weapons, mass shootings, etc. That is also the key in the statistics I was bringing up. Most suicides that I research are done by the easiest accessible weapon, or gravity. It only takes one shot. Fair enough, and this leads to the mental health issues conversation. The RCMP form for the PAL goes into suicidal thoughts, and then your medical history is brought up during the background check. In no way was I minimizing the issue of suicide by gun; rather, making the point that you are often your own worst enemy...gun or no.

    You're stating your anecdotal experience vs stats that show more people die by suicide by gun than by homicide.
    Actually, I am saying the stats back up that my anecdotal experience is that suicide is a far greater cause of death, gun or no.

    That is significant in the statistical discussion. Not sure why you would exclude, or not consider that (it often doesn't occur to people in a cursory glance at numbers) when the total of death by guns should clearly include all deaths by guns. . In terms of the sidebar gun control conversation ALL deaths by Gun should be tallied and so suicide by gun plus homicide by gun.
    I agree. I didn't exclude it, and the link I sent addresses issues such as this in their subsequent research.

    Next, the quid pro argument that more people die by other means may seem meaningful to you. Its not much more than obfuscation. Its the basic we die anyway argument so why do anything. (not saying that you are doing that, just that its a common enough angle that is used to explain away tragic deaths, for instance by guns) We seek to limit deaths that are tragically preventable because they are so preventable. That they are UNNECESSARY deaths.
    ...and if you actually read what I said, I mention this. I presented the stats as food for thought, not as a diatribe against gun control. Nowhere have I suggested this, only you've made the correlation. That is the key issue I have with this debate. I see the same people with meme after linked article to some blogger after rant making direct correlations when they don't exist, and I expected it here. I said that the reason why mass shootings are so horrid. My words were...

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    I get it. I empathize. A mass shooting is more fearful than cancer and cardio because this event takes the decision/eventual death 100% out of the hands of the victim. It is not a car accident. It is not bad eating habits. It is not risky behaviour. It is domestic terrorism, and actually where I would prefer that stat to be placed so that it is highlighted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    Next, more interesting stats are death by cause by age. We generally find it more tragic for young people to die than for people that have already lived a full and meaningful life. So that a lot of the deaths by advanced age causes are due to general mortality. Tragic, any death is, but more considered part of the life cycle.
    again...agree...and as a cancer survivor I can tell you that the +21 people who died around me the year I was in the Cross, the youth deaths were absolutely heartbreaking. I still remember those faces clearly. Yes, there were the 90+ year olds and the 40+ year old 30 year smokers....and yes the deaths were sad...but a 5 year old boy with retinoblastoma....or young girls/boys with Ewing's...I need to stop thinking about it before I break down in a blubbering mess just typing...

    I do side with you in feeling that death by vehicle and death by gun results in somewhat similar wakes. They also represent such a high amount of deaths by young people as well as suicide. Basically parents saying good bye to their youth in the morning and never seeing them alive again. I type that specifically because that is the greatest hit any parent can have. I've worked victims services. I've had to go along with Police to tell parents their child is dead. I can't even describe the reactions to that. The trauma, the life long tears, in the cases of preventable death the pain and suffering is so much, worse. In the case of deaths through disease people generally at least get a chance to say good bye, to prepare for death, to come to some acceptance. I don't know that we can look at numbers and say its comparable. That statistical counts don't ever give us any look at all of overall tragedy, harm, grief, caused by specific causes.
    True, they don't.

    I note one other factor that isn't leaping out of the page on some of these listed stats to the degree that they are represented but deaths by overdose (particularly by Opioids) are of course skyrocketing. (I believe these are included in the catch all category of "Drug disorders" but given the exponential growth probably warrant their own clearly demarked category). These are similarly tragic to car accidents, suicides, homicides, and yet are a sinister and quieter type of death. One that much more commonly escapes the news, a quiet epidemic if you will. Traumatic for parents as well in that along with suicide, death by overdose invariably involves the parents even being blamed for the deaths by some, or blaming themselves, or each other as parents.
    Yes. Yes. Yes.

    I wanted to respond to your post Richard and then got caught up in wanting to make the numbers a bit more real. To go into the trauma a bit and that not all deaths are similarly tragic. Not sure if my post is very clear. Its also a very emotional conversation for me as it is for many people.
    I agree, and I appreciate you taking the time. That is what is missing in this meme/chart/filter bubble posting fest.

    The over-arching issues in the statistics represented by global deaths is a multi-faceted issue. That is the requisite hypothesis I was trying to present. Yes, gun violence is extreme, and the decision by one deranged individual to take multiple lives is reprehensible. That is absolutely a pain that cannot be rationalized unlike Grandpa dying after a full life, or a heart attack of Mom at 45, or a seemingly healthy and clean living person getting cancer. I even mentioned that I would rather see mass shootings put into the "terrorism" column, and maybe even "domestic terrorism". I agree and believe that these types of death should be further delineated.

    If I were to make a thesis statement, it would be, "While the amount of carnage and death by mass shootings is small by statistical comparison, it is the juxtaposition of the type, vicious nature, and completely unnecessary actions that caused the death that should be further qualified. "...or something like that...

    That said, and right now I only have what I read and anecdotal life experience to augment, I still hypothesize that the number of unfortunate, tragic, sudden deaths by auto accidents due to careless driving, DUI, etc will be significant. The amount of effort that goes into curbing these instances, vs some concrete measures to do the same with weaponry, is a glaring contradiction that the NRA cannot defend against...but stupidly tries.

    One thing is also glaring. People here may not understand just how deep the gun culture is in the USA. When I lived there, it was surprising just how many guns were out there. Again, the vast majority were not homicidal maniacs...and those that puffed up their chests in some self defense, I am Rambo motif got laughter from me as I know that being shot at is scary. I referenced a classic Blazing Saddles line...where Gene Wilder shows his vibrating shooting hand. This is exactly what would happen to most folks... That said, again, people need to understand the monumental task this will be for the US. A full ban on guns, a full removal of semi automatic weapons like Australia, or banning just pistols won't happen anytime soon. Even Canadian-style regulations (I'd say a good place to start, but that's just me)...would have a hard time getting through. All I am trying to do by engaging is outline just how different the US is when it comes to this. It was founded by the gun, expanded by the gun, and the allegation is that it is currently defended by the gun. That combined with their art of patriotism to the extreme...well...
    Thanks for the reply Richard, agree with what you state. Just so you know I specifically did not mean to infer that you were obfuscating, or making the deflective argument, just that it is often the argument used by some that would. If you look closer in my statement;

    "(not saying that you are doing that, just that its a common enough angle that is used to explain away tragic deaths, for instance by guns)"

    So I didn't jump to conclusion on what you had stated and I thank you for all the information and citation which was interesting.

    The only place we differed is in my look at all gun deaths which I think, given the NRA slant in the thread, is important to include in that context. Not just as a listed stat, but to carefully consider that all those suicide gun deaths need to be added to the total carnage. Its just a more complete total of gun deaths then and the one importantly used as I linked.

    But yeah, for sure I would prefer more discussion like this than memes, gifs, and photoshop banter. I missed one of your earlier comments because its hard to look at the thread it being polluted with stock images instead of more content dialogue.

    When people are linking simple images or twitter shots or such if feels as if they would rather let the pictures talk instead of expressing their own view. Indeed I think this is where the unique discussion falls off. People would rather repost, retwit, reimage that which is already out there vs carefully expressing their own thoughts. I think the latter a bit more involved, and interesting. I've seen most of the stock imagery. Who hasn't seen the Kindersurprise one?
    Last edited by Replacement; 23-02-2018 at 11:30 AM.
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  38. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lobbdogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    If someone runs into a crowd with a Ford truck killing dozens doesn't make me a bad guy for owning a Ford. If my neighbor kills his wife with a baseball bat doesn't mean I'm a bad guy for having two in my closet for summer fun.
    Thats a **** poor analogy, you could have said that about any number of household items. A truck was designed for transportation, and a baseball bat for sports. A gun was designed for injuring or killing living things.
    A gun is designed for shooting targets (that's what I use mine for, as do the great majority of gun owners). I've never shot a person (nor an animal) with it.
    You can't make this stuff up. The history of guns and original intent says otherwise. Next you're going to tell me that missiles are for firing at trees and such.

    Know what is ironic about this entire conversation? The NRA lobbied and co-authored gun control legislation for much of its history until the 1970s. Now, somehow, the NRA equates gun control with taking away the right to gain freedom and liberation. I assure you, that won't be done by shooting targets.

  39. #339

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    Well regulated militia...


    Here was police in Charlottesville last year.
    Note the lack of long guns or assault rifles.


    Here is the militia that was armed to the teeth


    Regardless if they are left wing, right wing, neutral or independent. Who called them, who is their leader, who do they answer to? In fact, who are they and what are their orders?
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  40. #340
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    Today's quote on cowardice from that bloated buffoon who squirmed his way out of military service.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43174069

    God, he's bloody sickening.
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  41. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lobbdogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    If someone runs into a crowd with a Ford truck killing dozens doesn't make me a bad guy for owning a Ford. If my neighbor kills his wife with a baseball bat doesn't mean I'm a bad guy for having two in my closet for summer fun.
    Thats a **** poor analogy, you could have said that about any number of household items. A truck was designed for transportation, and a baseball bat for sports. A gun was designed for injuring or killing living things.
    A gun is designed for shooting targets (that's what I use mine for, as do the great majority of gun owners). I've never shot a person (nor an animal) with it.
    soooo... let me get this straight...

    it's your contention that a gun is designed for shooting targets.

    so when the second amendment stated "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." , is it your contention that the intent was that those arms would be carried down to a range and used to shoot targets where someone would keep score in order to determine the winner?

    you may well be able to use a gun to shoot targets - and you may well restrict your use to that - but that's not what a gun is designed for.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  42. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Given that concealed carry has gone up at least 300% in the US in the last decade, it doesn't really look like it's about public safety either.
    Well, it works in Utah..as I asked before, how many mass shooting IN schools, has there been in Utah..?

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    I'd wager it has more to do with the rather unique demographics of Utah than their concealed carry laws which aren't that different from other states.
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  44. #344

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    How many shootings were there BEFORE teachers carried guns? Utah is not a populous state and school shootings only a part of all shootings, so the sample size may be too small to draft many conclusions.
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    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I'd wager it has more to do with the rather unique demographics of Utah than their concealed carry laws which aren't that different from other states.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Utah

    This...Utah's firearm laws are some of the more permissive in the United States.

  47. #347

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    "These kids are like Hitler and Stalin and they were rude to Marco Rubio and I don't understand why nobody wants to put me in touch with them"

    Arizona GOP candidate compares Parkland survivors to Hitler — then asks reporter to put him in touch with teens

    Mack said he thought the teens were “rude” to Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) during this week’s CNN town hall, and he insisted he did not intend to compare them to history’s most infamous dictators — before doing so again.


    “The talk that I’ve heard so far coming from either some of the students or from politicians or from the media is that gun control would make us safer,” Mack told Hatewatch. “And I already told you that if you compare that to some of the rhetoric from Hitler and Stalin and Lenin, you’ll see the exact same kind of language used, that gun control will make you safer.”


    He then asked the Hatewatch reporter to help put him in touch with the Douglas High School students, but the correspondent declined.

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/ari...t-touch-teens/

  48. #348

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    A Republican comes out in favour of banning the AR-15. The reaction is pretty much what you expect.

    ‘Primary this wimp’: Gun nuts seethe at military vet GOP lawmaker after he comes out for banning AR-15

    Speaking of his experience in the military, Mast wrote that he once regularly used an AR-15-style rifle while serving his country — and he said last week’s massacre at the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida showed him that these kinds of weapons should only be used by the military, and not by citizens in their everyday lives.


    “We used it because it was the most lethal — the best for killing our enemies,” he explained. “And I know that my community, our schools and public gathering places are not made safer by any person having access to the best killing tool the Army could put in my hands. I cannot support the primary weapon I used to defend our people being used to kill children I swore to defend.”


    While Mast’s stance on banning such weapons earned him praise on social media from some gun control advocates, many gun enthusiasts took to Twitter to let him know that his political career was about to be over thanks to his new stance on the AR-15.

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/pri...banning-ar-15/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

    Thanks for the reply Richard, agree with what you state. Just so you know I specifically did not mean to infer that you were obfuscating, or making the deflective argument, just that it is often the argument used by some that would. If you look closer in my statement;

    "(not saying that you are doing that, just that its a common enough angle that is used to explain away tragic deaths, for instance by guns)"

    So I didn't jump to conclusion on what you had stated and I thank you for all the information and citation which was interesting.

    The only place we differed is in my look at all gun deaths which I think, given the NRA slant in the thread, is important to include in that context. Not just as a listed stat, but to carefully consider that all those suicide gun deaths need to be added to the total carnage. Its just a more complete total of gun deaths then and the one importantly used as I linked.

    But yeah, for sure I would prefer more discussion like this than memes, gifs, and photoshop banter. I missed one of your earlier comments because its hard to look at the thread it being polluted with stock images instead of more content dialogue.

    When people are linking simple images or twitter shots or such if feels as if they would rather let the pictures talk instead of expressing their own view. Indeed I think this is where the unique discussion falls off. People would rather repost, retwit, reimage that which is already out there vs carefully expressing their own thoughts. I think the latter a bit more involved, and interesting. I've seen most of the stock imagery. Who hasn't seen the Kindersurprise one?
    We differ on small things, but the overall is understood. I appreciate you engaging me this way. I too look at this thread with post after post after repost of tired and overused gifs, memes, and articles. It is polluting the feed on the front page, and the information is no different than before. Yes, the KinderSurprise one is an old one...

    I bolded the statement in your quote because that is exactly what's going on. People are now throwing Trump Trump Trump in at every chance, and others Obama Obama Clinton Obama...I'm tired of that. The fact that this issue remains so amazingly difficult should tell you just how hard of an issue this is to crack, and how deeply ingrained it is in the American society. I could post an old All in the Family episode dated September 16, 1972...yes...NINTEEN SEVENTY TWO....where this exact issue is discussed, or at least forms the basis of this show, and the same rationale comes out. It is called Archie and the Editorial. But...why?


    The rhetoric and blame game is a reason why this doesn't move from "thoughts and prayers"...IMO. Maybe there will be some movement this time to some more sensible views on guns...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    It was founded by the gun, expanded by the gun, and the allegation is that it is currently defended by the gun. That combined with their art of patriotism to the extreme...well...
    I know you are not for semi-automatic weapons but the American exceptionalism card is a very weak argument.

    (...)
    Seriously, you needed to add space killing images to make the point? It didn't add anything at all.

    ...and as for my "argument"...live there PRT. Live in the US for 10+ years.

    My family is American. The Canadian side is very small. Yet, between family, friends, and acquaintances...this thought prevails. You are saying that, in your view, you think American Exceptionalism is weak. Tell that to an American. ...the same folks that when you ask them what they think of Canada, their response is a curt..."We don't."

    When you stop judging this issue from your eyes, and look at it through theirs...the complexity grows. Who cares if we haven't burned down the White House, or that others "evolved"...we aren't talking about that experience. many here keep bringing up that they are perplexed at this being a US problem, yet refuse to step back and try to look at it from a US born, bred, and patriot view. This thought crosses racial lines, income lines, state lines, religious lines...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  51. #351

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    I lived in Utah for 6 months. Does that count?

    Maybe the NRA has controlled the narrative WAY too long. If the solution to every problem is more guns, this is the direct result.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 23-02-2018 at 02:37 PM.
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  52. #352

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    Newest report say that 3 more officers were on the scene quickly but hid behind their cars and would not enter or even follow other officers into the school.

    They understand the killing potential of an AR-15.

    Arming English teachers with pistols will not help. Stop the carnage. Ban assault weapons.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  53. #353

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    I lived in Las Vegas for 11 years and am married to an American. Lots of friends and family down there. And they are all appalled at the official response and fully support the students.

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    And you drug her back up here to the arctic and made her live in this god forsaken country. You meanie. lol

  55. #355

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    Actually it was her idea. She was out of work since the show she was on the lighting crew for, Siegfried and Roy, had shut down. You can't do a lateral move in the showrooms since they're all non-union. She would have had to start at the bottom on a new show and her 50 year old knees weren't up to climbing the ladders into the rafters each night. Visiting friends in Nova Scotia in Feb. 2005 (date was her choice, snow was "exotic"). She turned to me and said "How would you feel about moving back to Canada?". This was just after G.W.Bush got in the second time and she wanted a place with more reasonable politicians. She was no fan of Harper but admitted that he paled in the "crazy conservative" department next to Bush.

  56. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

    Thanks for the reply Richard, agree with what you state. Just so you know I specifically did not mean to infer that you were obfuscating, or making the deflective argument, just that it is often the argument used by some that would. If you look closer in my statement;

    "(not saying that you are doing that, just that its a common enough angle that is used to explain away tragic deaths, for instance by guns)"

    So I didn't jump to conclusion on what you had stated and I thank you for all the information and citation which was interesting.

    The only place we differed is in my look at all gun deaths which I think, given the NRA slant in the thread, is important to include in that context. Not just as a listed stat, but to carefully consider that all those suicide gun deaths need to be added to the total carnage. Its just a more complete total of gun deaths then and the one importantly used as I linked.

    But yeah, for sure I would prefer more discussion like this than memes, gifs, and photoshop banter. I missed one of your earlier comments because its hard to look at the thread it being polluted with stock images instead of more content dialogue.

    When people are linking simple images or twitter shots or such if feels as if they would rather let the pictures talk instead of expressing their own view. Indeed I think this is where the unique discussion falls off. People would rather repost, retwit, reimage that which is already out there vs carefully expressing their own thoughts. I think the latter a bit more involved, and interesting. I've seen most of the stock imagery. Who hasn't seen the Kindersurprise one?
    We differ on small things, but the overall is understood. I appreciate you engaging me this way. I too look at this thread with post after post after repost of tired and overused gifs, memes, and articles. It is polluting the feed on the front page, and the information is no different than before. Yes, the KinderSurprise one is an old one...

    I bolded the statement in your quote because that is exactly what's going on. People are now throwing Trump Trump Trump in at every chance, and others Obama Obama Clinton Obama...I'm tired of that. The fact that this issue remains so amazingly difficult should tell you just how hard of an issue this is to crack, and how deeply ingrained it is in the American society. I could post an old All in the Family episode dated September 16, 1972...yes...NINTEEN SEVENTY TWO....where this exact issue is discussed, or at least forms the basis of this show, and the same rationale comes out. It is called Archie and the Editorial. But...why?


    The rhetoric and blame game is a reason why this doesn't move from "thoughts and prayers"...IMO. Maybe there will be some movement this time to some more sensible views on guns...
    the history lessons and first hand experience you've added to this thread almost balance some of the oft quoted cartoons and oversized tweets etc... thank you.

    as far as there being some movement "this time", it's been too easy since 1972 and earlier to continually make this someone else's problem/a problem that doesn't really affect me - the "i can stay away from watts and harlem and waco and oregon and the blue hills of kentucky...this doesn't affect me". the difference here is that from columbine to parkland there has been a continuous stream of school children being killed in "middle american" schools. if you're a middle american, you can no longer say this doesn't really affect me or my children. am i optimistic about the potential for that movement? not yet, but i am hopeful and it's been a long time since you could feel that away about guns in america.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Newest report say that 3 more officers were on the scene quickly but hid behind their cars and would not enter or even follow other officers into the school.

    They understand the killing potential of an AR-15.

    Arming English teachers with pistols will not help. Stop the carnage. Ban assault weapons.
    They hid? You mean like the cops that rushed to aid Vegas victims?

    Not buying that without a link!...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Actually it was her idea. She was out of work since the show she was on the lighting crew for, Siegfried and Roy, had shut down. You can't do a lateral move in the showrooms since they're all non-union. She would have had to start at the bottom on a new show and her 50 year old knees weren't up to climbing the ladders into the rafters each night. Visiting friends in Nova Scotia in Feb. 2005 (date was her choice, snow was "exotic"). She turned to me and said "How would you feel about moving back to Canada?". This was just after G.W.Bush got in the second time and she wanted a place with more reasonable politicians. She was no fan of Harper but admitted that he paled in the "crazy conservative" department next to Bush.
    Like a fairytale. And lived happily ever after! I hope she likes it here. Welcome to Canada. (13 yrs late) All the best.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 23-02-2018 at 03:48 PM.

  59. #359

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    I lived in Las Vegas for 11 years and am married to an American. Lots of friends and family down there. And they are all appalled at the official response and fully support the students.
    We need a thread on where else people have lived - and more importantly - why.

  60. #360

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Newest report say that 3 more officers were on the scene quickly but hid behind their cars and would not enter or even follow other officers into the school.

    They understand the killing potential of an AR-15.

    Arming English teachers with pistols will not help. Stop the carnage. Ban assault weapons.
    They hid? You mean like the cops that rushed to aid Vegas victims?

    Not buying that without a link!...
    Its not hiding as such. If you are first respondent police officers and the situation you arrive at is beyond the means of your attachment you wait for backup. This is what is supposed to occur, this is what occurs here.

    The dispatch would likely reveal only such things that there was gunfire because news is still coming in. So that the first car arriving, getting news onsite that a semiautomatic is involved is different news and requires different action. Really a Swat team or some such thing in many instances like this. The average police detachment is of course going to not be able be effective in that situation, and not knowing where the shooter is, and in a school that is larger than anything we have here. To wit its even called a campus. The Police might also have been alerted that the gunman already shot and killed security and that there would be no hesitation to shoot a cop, obviously.

    The deployment required to deal with something like this is much more than a cop car or two. First respondents will often hang back and wait for support and information sufficient to act.

    The other possibility is that they wanted officers to hang back and secure the one entrance and or provide backup if the officers going in had to make a hasty retreat. Again standard protocol stuff. To an observer it might look like something else.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  61. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Newest report say that 3 more officers were on the scene quickly but hid behind their cars and would not enter or even follow other officers into the school.

    They understand the killing potential of an AR-15.

    Arming English teachers with pistols will not help. Stop the carnage. Ban assault weapons.
    They hid? You mean like the cops that rushed to aid Vegas victims?

    Not buying that without a link!...
    It's CNN but I assume you'll accept it as factual.

    Sources: Coral Springs police upset at some Broward deputies for not entering school


    (CNN)When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/polit...ies/index.html

  62. #362

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    ^Again not surprising, and yet further indication that arming is not the answer. No wonder the Armed school resource officer never at any time saw or encountered the shooter. He wasn't even in the school.

    I'm not sure what could more clearly delineate that armed schools isn't the answer, its not even remotely effective if it was even desired.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  63. #363

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    One thing to remember about this school is that it's not a single building. The shooting happened in the freshman building which is a separate three story building with 30 classrooms. As you can see in the following link, what appears to be a single building is actually multiple buildings connected by breezeways. It's Florida. You don't need protection from anything except rain.

    https://www.google.ca/maps/@26.30433...7i13312!8i6656

  64. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    One thing to remember about this school is that it's not a single building. The shooting happened in the freshman building which is a separate three story building with 30 classrooms. As you can see in the following link, what appears to be a single building is actually multiple buildings connected by breezeways. It's Florida. You don't need protection from anything except rain.

    https://www.google.ca/maps/@26.30433...7i13312!8i6656
    did you mean except rain and bullets?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  65. #365

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    You need protection from bullets in all climates. And from politicians who love donations from the NRA.

  66. #366

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Newest report say that 3 more officers were on the scene quickly but hid behind their cars and would not enter or even follow other officers into the school.

    They understand the killing potential of an AR-15.

    Arming English teachers with pistols will not help. Stop the carnage. Ban assault weapons.
    They hid? You mean like the cops that rushed to aid Vegas victims?

    Not buying that without a link!...
    Here is another link

    "Coward" sheriff's deputy was one of FOUR who failed to confront Florida shooter during school massacre
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-new...-four-12079659
    When police arrived, they were 'stunned and upset' that the four Broward County Sheriff's deputies who were first on the scene did not join them as they entered the school
    Scot Peterson was found to have waited outside the school building during the February 14 attack without ever going inside and attempting to take down the active shooter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Its not hiding as such. If you are first respondent police officers and the situation you arrive at is beyond the means of your attachment you wait for backup. This is what is supposed to occur, this is what occurs here.
    It used to be that police would surround a shooter or hostage taker, then wait for the SWAT team to show up. Try to negotiate and hours later, make their move. That is the old way and with an active shooter using an AR-15, people are dying at a quick pace, and injured are bleeding out.

    Tactics have changed. Police are trained to rush in, at least distract the shooter and try to rescue people trapped and save lives.

    Looks like the deputies did not get the memo.

    Meanwhile, the bone spur president who got 5 deferments from serving in Vietnam as an officer and probably certain fragging. What a coward and hypocrite calling out the first sheriff deputy.

    Trump wants teachers and staff to engage an active shooter armed to the teeth with a much more powerful weapon, possibly accidently shooting their own staff in students if their rounds don't hit the intended target and possibly mistaken by the SWAT team to be the primary shooter.

    Simply ridiculous and offers no protection to students not on campus such at local malls or restaurants, or even a shooter who boards a school bus.
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  67. #367
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    I think the coach( had he been armed) would have shot and killed him. FYI, I hate guns with a passion, but if it saves one child, I'm okay with teachers who want to be armed ...the one who shot herself in the foot( in 2014)is alive to talk about it.. How many children can't do the same?

    I've never heard DT say he wants every teacher armed to the hilt, that sounds like something you post for attention ..

  68. #368

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    Because the police will never mistake a good guy with a gun for a bad guy with a gun.

    APD shoots Faith City Mission student who’d taken gun away from hostage-taker in facility’s chapel

    Police said the initial call just before 9 a.m. referenced an armed suspect holding approximately 100 people hostage in the mission’s chapel.


    APD Special Crimes Unit investigators believe responding officers entered at two entrances to the building at 401 S.E. Second Ave. and, according to an APD news release, came into contact with the Faith City Mission student with a gun in his hand.


    One or more officers fired shots at the student, who had wrestled the gun away from the hostage-taker. The student was hit and taken to a local hospital by ambulance.

    http://amarillo.com/local-news/news/...rLg9Y.facebook

  69. #369

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    I think the coach( had he been armed) would have shot and killed him. FYI, I hate guns with a passion, but if it saves one child, I'm okay with teachers who want to be armed ...the one who shot herself in the foot( in 2014)is alive to talk about it.. How many children can't do the same?

    I've never heard DT say he wants every teacher armed to the hilt, that sounds like something you post for attention ..
    What do you base your claim on? Was the coach trained? Just because someone is armed, presumably with a handgun, doesn't mean that they'd be able to take out a shooter. In all the confusion it's unlikely even a trained professional will simply step out and take out a heavily armed assailant. If they're wearing body armour, it's even less likely that one person with a handgun will stop it.

    That's the sort of thing that happens in movies.

    “The shooter wore a gas mask, and he had smoke grenades; he set off the fire alarm so the kids would come pouring out of the classrooms and into the hall, and there the carnage began,” the senior senator from Florida Bill Nelson told CNN this evening, citing the FBI as his source.
    http://deadline.com/2018/02/parkland...eo-1202288652/

  70. #370

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    Do we even know if the coach would believe that more guns were a solution or if he was willing to be trained.

    Maybe the coach would have wanted to take; the suddenly available funds to buy him a $600 gun, $1,400 for training and say, $1,000 a year bonus and would he take the $3,000 and buy his students some new football gear and maybe take his wife on a short vacation.

    More guns are not the answer
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  71. #371

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    Maybe all students should wear body armour and ballistic helmets while they're at school.

    "Here we see the latest in school uniform fashion."


  72. #372

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    We all know where teachers with guns will lead:

    EVERY SECOND DAY’S SMALL BACKPAGE HEADLINE:

    Student grabs teachers gun and kills ___{fill in the blank with every conceivable scenario}___


    If it actually reduces mass shootings but kills even more people, blissful ignorance and blissful denial and blissful echo chambering will remove any pressure to do something about the ever mounting casualties.


    Will teachers be asked to carry AR-15s? It’s only common sense to equalize or exceed one’s fire power against the potential threat!
    Last edited by KC; 24-02-2018 at 08:27 AM.

  73. #373

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Heck; they banned Lawn Darts and Kinder Surprize in the US. If you are caught bringing a Kinder Surprize into the US you can be fined up to $15,000.00.










    Good ones. Normally the stupid cartoons and phoney pictures and vids are just ‘totally lame’. These two are mildly interesting. Thanks for posting.


    This poster campaign is pretty mild. I can think of several ways this could be turned into far more dramatic campaigns / movements.




    Americans Will No Longer Need To Smuggle Kinder Surprise Eggs From Canada - Narcity

    https://www.narcity.com/americans-wi...gs-from-canada
    Last edited by KC; 24-02-2018 at 08:33 AM.

  74. #374

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    We all know where teachers with guns will lead:

    EVERY SECOND DAY’S SMALL BACKPAGE HEADLINE:

    Student grabs teachers gun and kills ___{fill in the blank with every conceivable scenario}___


    If it actually reduces mass shootings but kills even more people, blissful ignorance and blissful denial and blissful echo chambering will remove any pressure to do something about the ever mounting casualties.
    If that happens, the NRA has a solution.

    Arm all the students
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  75. #375

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Good ones. Normally the stupid cartoons and phoney pictures and vids are just ‘totally lame’. These two are mildly interesting. Thanks for posting.

    There are a series on Kroger store policy


    One is the Kroger rule banning eating in their stores, another banning being without a shirt or shoes and the third banning skateboards.
    https://momsdemandaction.org/new-ads...less-shoppers/

    Assault guns are OK
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  76. #376

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    What a great idea. A system for rating movies and video games. Why hasn't anyone thought of this before?

    P.S. - The rest of the world watches the same movies and plays the same games. Try again.
    Donald Trump Boldly Suggests Movies, Video Games Should Get a “Rating System”
    Trump’s solution for the rampant violence targeting young Americans is something that already exists.


    “We have to look at the Internet, because a lot of bad things are happening to young kids and young minds, and their minds are being formed. And we have to do something about maybe what they’re seeing and how they’re seeing it,” Trump said. “And also video games. I’m hearing more and more people say the level of violence in video games is really shaping young people’s thoughts. And then you go the further step and that’s the movies. You see these movies, they’re so violent and yet a kid is able to see a movie if sex isn’t involved, but killing is involved. Maybe they have to put a rating system for that.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...-rating-system

  77. #377
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    What do you base your claim on? Was the coach trained? Just because someone is armed, presumably with a handgun, doesn't mean that they'd be able to take out a shooter.
    He tried to stop the shooter, without a gun, you don't think he would of, with one..??sheesh!

  78. #378

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    He could try. There's noting to say that he'd be successful. Life is not a Die Hard movie where one guy can overcome incredible odds with bullets flying everywhere.

    He threw himself in front of the students. If he was standing back, aiming to get a kill shot, he wouldn't have shielded those students. If he was trying to aim while moving, it's much less likely that he'd hit the shooter.

    Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? No, not really. Is it possible that more people would have died? Yes, if the shooter saw Feis had a gun, he might have targeted him first and then killed the students that Feis had saved.

    The best way to stop a school shooter is to do your damndest that he doesn't have a gun. An arms race in the halls of schools is not going to make anyone safer.

  79. #379

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    What do you base your claim on? Was the coach trained? Just because someone is armed, presumably with a handgun, doesn't mean that they'd be able to take out a shooter.
    He tried to stop the shooter, without a gun, you don't think he would of, with one..??sheesh!
    Well, then give all the students the right to carry guns too. They have as much right to protection as anyone else. Why force them to rely on a teacher that may or may not engage a shooter. Survival instincts are strong so there’s go guarantee that all teachers will; one, be level headed and two, willingly give up their lives to protect kids around them - if in the moment they are even aware of who else is around them.

    Moreover, hundreds of thousands of armed kids would surely be a deterrent to the nut cases. So why not do it right, armbdveryone and totally eliminate the risk of mass shootings. It just common sense, right.

    15 yrs old:

    Florida shooting: West Point admits murdered hero Peter Wang - BBC News

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43132215
    Last edited by KC; 24-02-2018 at 10:49 AM.

  80. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    What do you base your claim on? Was the coach trained? Just because someone is armed, presumably with a handgun, doesn't mean that they'd be able to take out a shooter.
    He tried to stop the shooter, without a gun, you don't think he would of, with one..??sheesh!
    Well, then give all the students the right to carry guns too. They have as much right to protection as anyone else. Why force them to rely on a teacher that may or may not engage a shooter. Survival instincts are strong so there’s go guarantee that all teachers will; one, be level headed and two, willingly give up their lives to protect kids around them - if in the moment they are form aware of who else is around them.


    15 yrs old:

    Florida shooting: West Point admits murdered hero Peter Wang - BBC News

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43132215
    No, don't put words in my mouth KC, I have never said give all the students guns. Why jump from the sublime to the ridiculous?

    Parents need to step up, know what's going on their children's lives, use discipline. As I see it, the imates are running the asylum!
    Have a good weekend!

  81. #381

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    Oh I see, it's the parents fault.

    The gun was purchased legally. It was stored in a gun vault. The people he was living with (both his parents were dead) said they saw no warning signs.

    Why is it ridiculous to allow students who can legally own a gun to bring them into the classroom while it's a great idea to allow teachers to do the same? Is it not possible that it's ridiculous to allow either to arm themselves? And what do you do when a teacher is having a bad day and pulls the gun on a student who's disrupting the class?

    High school teacher 'lined up terrified students and fired blanks at them' during class


    High-school welding classes always carry a high risk of injury but last week one lesson took a bizarrely dangerous turn.


    In an apparent attempt to get his students' attention one welding teacher lined up his class against a wall, pulled a gun from his waistband and fired multiple rounds of blanks.


    The twelve students allegedly feared for their lives when Manuael Dillow fired off between four and ten rounds at them during a welding class.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz583D5jMTM



  82. #382

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    What do you base your claim on? Was the coach trained? Just because someone is armed, presumably with a handgun, doesn't mean that they'd be able to take out a shooter.
    He tried to stop the shooter, without a gun, you don't think he would of, with one..??sheesh!
    Well, then give all the students the right to carry guns too. They have as much right to protection as anyone else. Why force them to rely on a teacher that may or may not engage a shooter. Survival instincts are strong so there’s go guarantee that all teachers will; one, be level headed and two, willingly give up their lives to protect kids around them - if in the moment they are form aware of who else is around them.


    15 yrs old:

    Florida shooting: West Point admits murdered hero Peter Wang - BBC News

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43132215
    No, don't put words in my mouth KC, I have never said give all the students guns. Why jump from the sublime to the ridiculous?

    Parents need to step up, know what's going on their children's lives, use discipline. As I see it, the imates are running the asylum!
    Have a good weekend!
    Ridiculous? Not at all. If the environment can NOT be made reasonable and intelligent, then you have to adjust to match the insanity. (That’s why we played very nasty in our own wars such as WWII. Or today via “cowardly” sniper and drone attacks. Meet evil with evil when necessary.)

    I grew up with guns. As I’ve said elsewhere, my mother had her own shotgun. We even had a shooting range in our basement. So as a kid I’d have had no problem carrying one responsibly.

    Now, as the police are proving to be an ineffective line of defense, you cannot expect even a few trained teachers to be a successful line of defense. Therefore you train the kids themselves on how to protect themselves and give them the weapons to fend off those intent to kill them when the other lines of defense, the resource officers, the cops and the teachers fail to protect them. It’s their lives at stake and being targeted so if society doesn’t want to engage in sensible preventative measures then go all out and do whatever it takes to protect these kids.
    Last edited by KC; 24-02-2018 at 12:47 PM.

  83. #383
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    whether it’s a school or anywhere else for that matter, expecting others with guns to fix what’s already broken is an escalation, not a solution.

    the last thing that should be taking place in an active shooter event is to pull out another gun.

    firstly, if you have more than one other concealed gun carrier in the area, they may well end up shooting each other instead of the perpetrator.

    secondly, when the police do arrive, they’re looking for someone - anyone - with a gun to shoot at and take out as quickly as possible. they likely have no other description than someone with a gun and none of them will know perpetrators from teachers or vice versa.

    thirdly, if teachers are going to be armed, will they also have to teach in vests or body armour so the police can recognize them? and if so, what’s to stop the perpetrator from stealing a vest - before or during - that tells the police “don’t shoot me”?

    lastly, i trust no one is seriously considering allowing students to “carry their own protection” as the ultimate solution other than to point out the sheer lunacy of the ongoing proliferation of guns being considered an answer and not the real problem.

    there is no way to solve/prevent this with a guns in schools arms escalation. it will only be solved/prevented by disarmament.
    Last edited by kcantor; 24-02-2018 at 12:53 PM.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  84. #384

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    whether it’s a school or anywhere else for that matter, expecting others with guns to fix what’s already broken is an escalation, not a solution.

    the last thing that should taking place in an active shooter event is to pull out another gun.

    firstly, if you have more than one other concealed gun carrier in the area, they may well end up shooting each other instead of the perpetrator.

    secondly, when the police do arrive, they’re looking for someone - anyone - with a gun to shoot at and take out as quickly as possible. they likely have no other description than someone with a gun and none of them will know perpetrators from teachers or vice versa.

    thirdly, if teachers are going to be armed, will they also have to teach in vests or body armour so the police can recognize them? and if so, what’s to stop the perpetrator from stealing a vest - before or during - that tells the police “don’t shoot me”?

    there is no way to solve/prevent this with a guns in schools arms escalation. it will only be solved/prevented by disarmament.
    This all makes sense, when intelligence is applied. Refuse to; apply intelligence, control and limit weapons, and create guarantees of defences that will intervene, then it’s just leaving everyone to protect themselves.

    Principled sacrifices of innocents is a commonly accepted practice but at some point enough victims pile up that people take their own defenders into their own hands.
    Last edited by KC; 24-02-2018 at 12:57 PM.

  85. #385

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    I calculated the cost to purchase a handgun for 20% of public school teachers. That came to $350,000,000. (3.2 million teachers * 20% * $550 per Glock) Plus ammo. Plus storage. Plus training. Plus annual training. Plus bonuses.

    This is his idea of inexpensive. And, of course, he wants the states to pay for it all.

    Trump promises ‘shootings will not happen again’ if states give yearly bonuses to ‘Armed Educators’


    "“Armed Educators (and trusted people who work within a school) love our students and will protect them. Very smart people. Must be firearms adept & have annual training. Should get yearly bonus. Shootings will not happen again – a big & very inexpensive deterrent. Up to States.”"

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/tru...med-educators/

  86. #386

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    thirdly, if teachers are going to be armed, will they also have to teach in vests or body armour so the police can recognize them? and if so, what’s to stop the perpetrator from stealing a vest - before or during - that tells the police “don’t shoot me”?

    lastly, i trust no one is seriously considering allowing students to “carry their own protection” as the ultimate solution other than to point out the sheer lunacy of the ongoing proliferation of guns being considered an answer and not the real problem.
    Counterfeit vests would be available on e-bay within days of the design being unveiled.

    And allowing students to bring their own guns to school is just as absurd as arming the teachers. Which is why I expect some politician or gun nut, somewhere, to make the suggestion in a serious manner.

  87. #387

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    thirdly, if teachers are going to be armed, will they also have to teach in vests or body armour so the police can recognize them? and if so, what’s to stop the perpetrator from stealing a vest - before or during - that tells the police “don’t shoot me”?

    lastly, i trust no one is seriously considering allowing students to “carry their own protection” as the ultimate solution other than to point out the sheer lunacy of the ongoing proliferation of guns being considered an answer and not the real problem.
    Counterfeit vests would be available on e-bay within days of the design being unveiled.

    And allowing students to bring their own guns to school is just as absurd as arming the teachers. Which is why I expect some politician or gun nut, somewhere, to make the suggestion in a serious manner.
    Students with guns isn’t absurd in an absurd environment - unfortunately, it’s rational.

  88. #388

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    It's almost as if they were designed to kill people.

    ‘Weapon of choice for domestic terrorists’: Fox military analyst rips ‘pathetic’ gun owners for choosing AR-15’s over kids

    According to Lt. Col. Ralph Peters, who recently wrote a New York Post column criticizing the proliferation of assault weapons in the U.S., the Ar-15 is a weapon of war solely designed for killing other people and not for sport shooting.


    “I’m a gun owner. I know guns. My family’s a gun family, however these weapons, these AR-15s and similar weapons, are not for sporting purposes,” Peters told the host. “Having those weapons in civilian hands is absolute madness.”


    “The purpose of the AR-15 series is to kill and maim people,” Peters continued. “They certainly kill, but beyond that, when they hit you .. it’s meant to just tear the body apart so the wounded person can’t get up and fight again.”.


    “Why on earth should we have weapons that kill children––the AR-15 is used again and again, it’s the weapon of choice for domestic terrorists,” he added.

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/wea...g-ar-15s-kids/

  89. #389

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    It'll be interesting to see the reaction of the people that voted for him.

    WATCH: Kentucky lawmaker in the heart of Trump country sides with students — and gives up his A rating from the NRA

    Harris is already acting on his new convictions, co-sponsoring a bill that would end Kentucky’s bizarre practice of auctioning off murder weapons to the public. Thanks to that law, a gun that was used in a recent Kentucky school shooting in which two children were killed and 14 others wounded will be auctioned off.


    “I’m tired of all the prayers without action,” Harris said. “We do nothing to try to minimize these ever-escalating mass shootings with their ever-escalating death tolls. We offer our prayers and we talk about our faith but we do not act. Without action, without good works, our faith and our prayers are dead.”


    “A lot of people give things up for Lent. I’m giving up my NRA rating,” he said.

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/wat...es-rating-nra/

  90. #390

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    February 20, 2018 - U.S. Support For Gun Control Tops 2-1, Highest Ever, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Let Dreamers Stay, 80 Percent Of Voters Say

    Excerpts
    American voters support stricter gun laws 66 - 31 percent, the highest level of support ever measured by the independent Quinnipiac University National Poll,
    50 - 44 percent support among gun owners
    62 - 35 percent support from white voters with no college degree
    58 - 38 percent support among white men.

    97 - 2 percent, 97 - 3 percent among gun owners. Support for universal background checks is itself almost universal,
    67 - 29 percent for a nationwide ban on the sale of assault weapons;
    83 - 14 percent for a mandatory waiting period for all gun purchases.
    67 - 3 percent, too easy to buy a gun in the U.S. today,
    59 - 33 percent, If more people carried guns, the U.S. would be less safe
    75 - 17 percent. Congress needs to do more to reduce gun violence
    70 - 20 percent. Mass killings by U.S. citizens is a bigger problem than mass killings by people from other countries
    Stricter gun control would do more to reduce gun violence in schools, 40 percent of voters say, while 34 percent say metal detectors would do more and 20 percent say armed teachers are the answer.

    Support for stricter gun laws is up 19 points in little more than 2 years," said Tim Malloy, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Poll.




    Military Parade
    American voters disapprove 61 - 26 percent of President Donald Trump's plan for a military parade. Every listed party, gender, education, age and racial group disapproves except Republicans, who approve 58 - 24 percent.
    And voters say 75 - 18 percent, including 52 - 37 percent among Republicans, that the estimated $10 million to $30 million to pay for the parade is not a good use of government funds.


    Dreamers
    American voters support 80 - 16 percent allowing undocumented children brought to the U.S. as children, so-called "Dreamers," to remain and eventually apply for citizenship. Every listed group supports Dreamers by wide margins.


    From February 16 - 19, Quinnipiac University surveyed 1,249 voters nationwide with a margin of error of +/- 3.4 percentage points, including the design effect. Live interviewers call landlines and cell phones.
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  91. #391

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    Of course, The NRA and Trump have said noting about giving the teachers armour. They're expected to take on a heavily armed shooter while wearing a tweed jacket or a cardigan.
    Last edited by Admin; 27-02-2018 at 09:50 AM. Reason: removed large image. It is unnecessary to the point, and made loading this screen ridiculous on mobile devices.

  92. #392

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    i·ro·ny1
    ˈīrənē
    noun
    the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.

    ‘Business only goes up’: Tampa gun show had lines out the door — and vendors cashing in on Parkland

    Ironically, the show itself had strict gun control measures. There was two-gun limit for anyone wanting to bring their firearm into the show. Any guns carried in had to have their triggers zip-tied. And it was a no-carry zone, even for licensed concealed carry permit holders who were forced to disarm, leaving their ammunition at home or in their cars.


    “MAKE SURE YOUR GUNS ARE UNLOADED AND THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY LOOSE AMMUNITION WITH YOU,” the site says. “Safety is our number one priority and can only be maintained if there are NO loaded guns in the show.”

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/bus...hing-parkland/

  93. #393

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    Republican lawmakers are revenging on companies not supporting the their biggest lobby group, the NRA

    Georgia's lieutenant governor says he will 'kill' Delta tax break unless airline reinstates relationship with NRA
    - Delta and United over the weekend said they would end airfare discounts for an upcoming NRA conference.
    - Georgia Lt. Gov. Casey Cagle said he'd "kill" any tax law that benefits Delta unless it reinstates its relationship with the NRA.
    - Airlines joined a list of other companies that ended perks for NRA members in the wake of the Parkland high school massacre.

    Republican politicians in Delta Air Lines' home state of Georgia are striking back at the airline after it decided to scrap discounted airfare for participants in an upcoming National Rifle Association meeting.


    "I will kill any tax legislation that benefits Delta unless the company changes its position and fully reinstates its relationship with the NRA," tweeted Lt. Gov. Casey Cagle, referring to a bill that could save Delta taxes on jet fuel. "Corporations cannot attack conservatives and expect us not to fight back."

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/26/geor...-nra-ties.html

    NRA members were getting benefits from Delta that non-members could not get.

    Delta removes this benefit and the NRA goes nuts and calls out anyone who disagrees with their extremist views on guns, then sends out their army of lawmakers who are beholden to NRA money.

    This corporate stranglehold must stop
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  94. #394

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    Delta should put forth a call for airports interested in being their new hub. No cities in Georgia need apply.

  95. #395

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    Given that money is speech, isn't he breaching the 1st Amendment by having the government attempt to curtail/control said moneyspeech?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  96. #396

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    Yes, people are getting something taken away. Their lives, for example.

    NRA board member whines Parkland teens are ‘playing on the sympathy factor of kids getting killed’

    Charles Cotton griped Monday night in the TexasCHLForum.com he operates that the tide seemed to be turning in public sentiment after the Florida school shooting left 17 students and teachers dead, and he urged fellow gun enthusiasts to take action.


    “I’m so sick of buzz phrases,” Cotton groused. “No one is ‘giving up’ anything, but the reality is we could well see bump-stocks ‘taken away’ because the votes are probably there. Wake up people and see what’s happening!!!!”

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/nra...etting-killed/

  97. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Delta should put forth a call for airports interested in being their new hub. No cities in Georgia need apply.
    Ok...seriously?????

    Do you have a concept on just how BIG Hartsfield actually is?????

    I get the tit for tat...but
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  98. #398

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    Yup. Been there. And they wouldn't be taking the airport. Atlanta would be stuck with an airport much bigger than they actually need and Delta would get a 21st century hub.

    Expensive? Sure, no question. Most of the traffic is just changing planes anyway so the actual location of the hub is secondary. I'm sure Chattanooga or Nashville would be trilled to have a brand new airport.

  99. #399
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    Seriously????


    Saying "expensive...for sure" is ridiculous. It isn't expensive, it is beyond that. It is rerouting your entire network, maintenance base, crews, flight schedules/slots....it isn't just adding 2 gates and a taxiway. It is 100's of billions...
    Plus, Delta has more clout in Georgia than the NRA... In a razor thin margin business...Delta is not going to do this just to "make a point". They'll get the Gov unelected...


    I am beginning to think this long running, picture polluted, article quoting choking thread is running its course... I get it, you hate guns. There is a definite shift in thinking in many areas towards stricter gun controls on semi automatics...that is reality...


    However, when people start making ridiculous suggestions like this...without thinking it though and realizing campaigning is cheaper than a wholesale relocation of billions of dollars of infrastructure...then we are trying to boil a little too much ocean...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  100. #400

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    Do I think it would happen? Nope. Would just the thought of it send shivers down the spine of Georgia? Sure would. It's basically the same sort of scam that sports teams pull all the time. Make noises that you're even thinking of moving and watch your home town shower you with a new stadium/arena. All they have to do is say that they're examining the possibility and enough people in Georgia would demand that the GOP back down.

    Georgia makes a lot more off Delta than they do off the NRA.

    And I don't hate guns. I hate that the States allows people to get their hands on pretty much any gun they want. Sure, full auto is restricted but the NRA is fighting for bump stocks which turn semi autos into the next best thing.

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