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Thread: The all-encompassing Northlands site redevelopment thread

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    Default The all-encompassing Northlands site redevelopment thread

    So as of today, council has voted to cancel the sponsorship agreement with OEG, basically driving the last nail in the coffin for the old Coliseum. The spectrum will be closed by the end of summer as horse racing and casino gambling moves to the airport, and the EEDC has taken over the Expo Centre. We’re now finally at a point where we might start to see some clarity as to what will develop at the site. Community stakeholders are pushing to have the Sportex demolished as soon as possible. There are different priorities and opportunities for the lands north of Borden park and north of 118th ave. While the old race track lands seem ideal for residential redevelopment, the coliseum site is much more disconnected.
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    Northlands Coliseum’s neighbours want more input on plan for exhibition lands

    City council’s executive committee voted Thursday to finally formalize the cancellation of a sponsorship agreement with the Edmonton Oilers and to launch what will be a consultation and review process for the 160 acres of the exhibition lands.

    At next Tuesday’s council meeting, they’ll vote to close the Coliseum for good, in exchange for ending a 10-year sponsorship agreement on Rogers Place that would have seen the city pay the Oilers an additional $17 million.

    ...

    Whether that was a good idea or a bad idea for council to agree to in April of 2013, that was an agreement the City of Edmonton made and I believe that we have to stick to our agreements, whether we like them or not in retrospect.”

    ...

    Finley later told reporters how a lot of people became frustrated because they were asked to comment on the Northlands’ Vision 2020 plans, only to later find out they weren’t going ahead.

    He said Bellevue residents would like to see the Northlands Park racetrack, grandstand and horse barns removed as soon as possible after this year’s racing season, so planners can work with a vacant site.

    “It’s going to be much harder to protect than the Coliseum is. The urgency is to probably get that down right away so we can at least see the site. We’re not putting a track there, that’s for sure.”

    Councillors were told by city staff that they’re still narrowing in on a true cost of Coliseum demolition that currently sits between $15 million and $25 million.

    Coun. Tim Cartmell told reporters keeping the old arena secure and maintaining the heat and the lights will cost $1.5 million a year.

    He suggested that public consultation will look at a wide range of ideas including raising 118 Avenue to get rid of the underpass, or adding an interchange off Wayne Gretzky Drive.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4042213/n...mpression=true
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    Keeping Coliseum 'unlikely' as council considers next steps for developing site


    While the future of the Coliseum site remains unclear, the city's executive committee recommended Thursday that council finalize an agreement with the Edmonton Oilers Group regarding the permanent closure of the building.

    As long as the building remains officially closed, the city will be off the hook for a $17-million sponsorship deal negotiated with the Oilers group, as part of a memorandum of understanding reached in 2016.

    The recommendation will be put before city council next week.

    Coun. Tim Cartmell said permanent closure doesn't automatically mean the coliseum will be demolished, but re-purposing the building would be "unlikely."

    "It's not ever going to be a place where people gather in seats for entertainment or sport, period," said Cartmell. "It then becomes a concrete round shell that becomes very expensive to turn into anything else."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ment-1.4547793
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    I don't even know why there is discussion. The outcome is clear.

    I just hope they do better repurposing this site than some others...and hopefully they won't impair the site with unrealistic goals...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    I would love to see Borden Park expanded right up to the East Edmonton Health Centre

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    $4,000/day is quite a chunk of $ at the end of the year. I just hope it just doesn't languish as an empty surface lot for years to come.
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    Its off topic I know but what's going on at Belvedere station? Is there a thread for that somewhere?

    Thanks
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    He suggested that public consultation will look at a wide range of ideas including raising 118 Avenue to get rid of the underpass, or adding an interchange off Wayne Gretzky Drive.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4042213/n...mpression=true
    What a dumb idea.

    All we need is to spend millions to create another at grade LRT crossing and additional pedestrian hazard. Do people even think about the ideas they are proposing?
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    They should extend the underpass to go under Wayne Gretzky. Why raise it? That's perhaps the dumbest idea ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I don't even know why there is discussion. The outcome is clear.

    I just hope they do better repurposing this site than some others...and hopefully they won't impair the site with unrealistic goals...
    Hopefully they do much better than other sites.

    This article from late last year sums it up. I don't usually put much stock in anything David Staples says, but this article is on point:

    David Staples: North Edmonton residents want more Griesbach, less Blatchford

    When Kris Andreychuk is out knocking on doors in the Ward 7 neighbourhoods around Northlands Coliseum, residents speak to him in a kind of code that only Edmontonians will understand.

    We want Griesbach, they tell Andreychuk. We don’t want Blatchford.

    What they mean is that at the dead or dying Northlands site, they want a redevelopment just like Griesbach, a walkable, attractive neighbourhood of homes, townhouses and low-rise apartment buildings where people don’t have to get in a car to go to buy groceries. Griesbach was built on old Canadian military lands.

    What they don’t want is a hugely ambitious project like Blatchford, where the city is acting as the developer on the site of the old downtown airport. It hopes to build a net-zero greentopia, but one that will likely take hundreds of millions in government investment to be fully realized.




    “The two kind of comparisons that people hold in their mind are Blatchford, that is yet to break ground, or Griesbach, which gets a lot of people excited,” says Andreychuk, a social worker.

    “The danger would be to come up with a perfect plan that is over-reaching, that is too aspirational. The last thing we need is a perfect plan that just collects dust. We have to balance aspiration with some pragmatism.”

    The development plan for the Northlands site has to reflect what the surrounding communities want — and a big part of what they want is housing and streets that will attract investment so a developer will start to build right away, not many years off.

    But it’s not just in north-central Edmonton that the Griesbach-not-Blatchford notion should prevail.

    A number of undeveloped or badly developed lands blot the Edmonton landscape. It will be no easy thing to properly redevelop these sites, especially if anyone thinks government alone should lead the way.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...ess-blatchford
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    ^LOL...I didn't see that article yet. I was wondering when that was going to come up?

    I do empathize with the Blatchford folks. They've been saddled by some pretty unrealistic goals...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    For sure the unrealistic green goals area burden on Blatchford, and so are the utopian vision that was pitched....

    But it's also at least 15 years behind Griesbach. Griesbach took a while to get going too, and it had the advantage of a site with prettier edges and a handful of existing streets at the start so no one had to live in that one house in the middle of a construction site.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    They should extend the underpass to go under Wayne Gretzky. Why raise it? That's perhaps the dumbest idea ever.
    Rather Wayne Gretzky should go under 118 and 119 if they can make it work.

    The grade separation at the LRT tracks makes for probably the easiest LRT to bus transfer of anywhere in the city; it should absolutely be maintained.
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    I agree that removing the underpass for the LRT is crazy. I cannot fathom why at grade seems to be the craze now...other than cost. ...but to introduce significant cost to remove a grade separated major LRT stop just baffles me....

    @HighlanderII, I agree that it is 15+ years behind Gries...but it cannot be downplayed that it also was not even remotely hampered by the overpromised boondoggle the poor team at Blatchford is saddled with. From the angst, to the environment, to the fantasyland ecoproject....I have never seen a group so set up it isn't even funny. My hats are off to the team for keeping their heads up for this long!
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I agree that removing the underpass for the LRT is crazy. I cannot fathom why at grade seems to be the craze now...other than cost. ...but to introduce significant cost to remove a grade separated major LRT stop just baffles me....

    @HighlanderII, I agree that it is 15+ years behind Gries...but it cannot be downplayed that it also was not even remotely hampered by the overpromised boondoggle the poor team at Blatchford is saddled with. From the angst, to the environment, to the fantasyland ecoproject....I have never seen a group so set up it isn't even funny. My hats are off to the team for keeping their heads up for this long!
    I used to think that raising the road to grade was a good idea, but given that the north leg of the Capital line is the only leg that seems to be built properly it'd be better to maintain the grade separation and just improve the aesthetics and safety of the underpass.

    I think though that we don't necessarily need to rush the north portion of the site. I think the city does need to put a timeline on the demolition of the coliseum so that there is certainly as to what will happen and when. But that parcel will be a challenge.

    I hope the sportex is demolished expeditiously, as the race track lands I believe can be fast tracked for redevelopment given it's proximity to transit, shopping and lots of other residential development.

    It's too bad they built the Stadium Save-On with that blank north wall, probably assuming that the land north of it would be barren forever. But the land north of that plaza is pretty ripe for re-development, services are already there, good location.. win win
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    Anyone want to bet that after the building goes, the site will sit idle for ten years?
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    They should turn Northlands into a recreation facility imo.

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    Would recreation fall under "entertainment or sporting" in the deal signed with Katz for the new arena? If so, it's not a permitted use.

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    Is it just me or does it seem like we are getting a lot fewer concerts and events these days. I think we got screwed by this Katz/city agreement. It's too bad they couldn't relocate the coliseum to River Cree, away from city of Edmonton jurisdiction . I bet it would be busy as heck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Is it just me or does it seem like we are getting a lot fewer concerts and events these days. I think we got screwed by this Katz/city agreement. It's too bad they couldn't relocate the coliseum to River Cree, away from city of Edmonton jurisdiction . I bet it would be busy as heck.
    100 per cent it's just you. Pretty sure we are getting every tour that's out there.....are you under the impression that acts are avoiding us? It's been publicized 100X over that acts are indeed bypassing **** kicker town but not us. The only tour that I know if we're not getting - yet - is Pink.....yeah we didn't get U2 last year either, but that was a Stadium tour. Do us a favor.....go on line and come back to us saying "this tour, this act bypassed us" before you say idiotic statements lime your previous......

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    Yes sir.

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    ^ Actually, we're getting more events because we have (arguably) better venues. This might explain things better:

    http://calgaryherald.com/entertainme...calgary-a-pass
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    They should build a large Jedi Temple.

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    How about we work with the Province and build a community health centre like we have here in Clareview. Such a facility could remove any stress off of the Royal Alex
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    ^There is one on 112 Ave and 82 Street.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    I was just thinking that I didn't see as many ads on TV for events as before and yet a lot for acts coming to river cree. I should have researched it. My mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I agree that removing the underpass for the LRT is crazy. I cannot fathom why at grade seems to be the craze now...other than cost. ...but to introduce significant cost to remove a grade separated major LRT stop just baffles me....

    @HighlanderII, I agree that it is 15+ years behind Gries...but it cannot be downplayed that it also was not even remotely hampered by the overpromised boondoggle the poor team at Blatchford is saddled with. From the angst, to the environment, to the fantasyland ecoproject....I have never seen a group so set up it isn't even funny. My hats are off to the team for keeping their heads up for this long!
    I used to think that raising the road to grade was a good idea, but given that the north leg of the Capital line is the only leg that seems to be built properly it'd be better to maintain the grade separation and just improve the aesthetics and safety of the underpass.

    I think though that we don't necessarily need to rush the north portion of the site. I think the city does need to put a timeline on the demolition of the coliseum so that there is certainly as to what will happen and when. But that parcel will be a challenge.

    I hope the sportex is demolished expeditiously, as the race track lands I believe can be fast tracked for redevelopment given it's proximity to transit, shopping and lots of other residential development.

    It's too bad they built the Stadium Save-On with that blank north wall, probably assuming that the land north of it would be barren forever. But the land north of that plaza is pretty ripe for re-development, services are already there, good location.. win win

    Would the sportex be the horse racing grandstands? I thought that the sported was demolished ten years ago.

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    Sportex has been gone for a decade.

    Northlands Sportex demolished for new building

    A staple in Edmonton's entertainment scene met its date with a wrecking ball Monday after 45 years of hosting concerts, trade shows and curling competitions.


    The Northlands Sportex was demolished Monday to make room for the expansion of the AgiCom, a large building on the Northlands Park property.


    The expansion of the AgiCom is part of a $160-million redevelopment of the Northlands property.

    https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/northlan...lding-1.335469

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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I agree that removing the underpass for the LRT is crazy. I cannot fathom why at grade seems to be the craze now...other than cost. ...but to introduce significant cost to remove a grade separated major LRT stop just baffles me....

    @HighlanderII, I agree that it is 15+ years behind Gries...but it cannot be downplayed that it also was not even remotely hampered by the overpromised boondoggle the poor team at Blatchford is saddled with. From the angst, to the environment, to the fantasyland ecoproject....I have never seen a group so set up it isn't even funny. My hats are off to the team for keeping their heads up for this long!
    I used to think that raising the road to grade was a good idea, but given that the north leg of the Capital line is the only leg that seems to be built properly it'd be better to maintain the grade separation and just improve the aesthetics and safety of the underpass.

    I think though that we don't necessarily need to rush the north portion of the site. I think the city does need to put a timeline on the demolition of the coliseum so that there is certainly as to what will happen and when. But that parcel will be a challenge.

    I hope the sportex is demolished expeditiously, as the race track lands I believe can be fast tracked for redevelopment given it's proximity to transit, shopping and lots of other residential development.

    It's too bad they built the Stadium Save-On with that blank north wall, probably assuming that the land north of it would be barren forever. But the land north of that plaza is pretty ripe for re-development, services are already there, good location.. win win

    Would the sportex be the horse racing grandstands? I thought that the sported was demolished ten years ago.
    Sorry, I was referring to the Spectrum. The horse racing and casino venue
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    ^There is one on 112 Ave and 82 Street.
    I know. I was just responding silly to the post above mine.
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    So did we learn anything from Visions 2020? Or was all that just smoke and mirrors?
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    So did we learn anything from Visions 2020? Or was all that just smoke and mirrors?
    I think the problem with Vision 2020 was twofold: 1) It was already too late for Northlands by that time anyways, and 2) Nobody really wanted what they were proposing, for the most part.

    The 100,000 person outdoor venue was not practical or viable, and not at all what the community wanted for the area. The coliseum reno could have had some traction but again with the Katz group having a chokehold over the building by way of the non-competition agreement it would have been next to impossible to move forward and raise any capital for such a venture

    It was a proposal from a group trying to stay viable and ultimately it didn't make a lot of sense. It makes sense to leverage what's already in the area for the south portion of the site and develop residential. The north site, difficult to say.
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    Move the VIA / Greyhound station there. Doing so would provide a connection to the LRT for VIA and Greyhound users, as well as allowing removal of the tracks next to 121 St and the Yellowhead rail overpass. That would in turn allow more connections to 121 St and simplify an integrated 127 / 124 / 121 St - Yellowhead interchange.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Move the VIA / Greyhound station there. Doing so would provide a connection to the LRT for VIA and Greyhound users, as well as allowing removal of the tracks next to 121 St and the Yellowhead rail overpass. That would in turn allow more connections to 121 St and simplify an integrated 127 / 124 / 121 St - Yellowhead interchange.
    Wouldn't a train station need to be close to the train tracks though ? It's not a very nice or short walk from the coliseum, over the LRT overpass to Belvedere where the tracks are.
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    City council approves permanent closure of Coliseum

    City council on Tuesday approved the permanent closure of the Coliseum.

    “We’re examining the entirety of the exhibition lands through a few different processes, but, generally, the city is accepting any kind of ideas or proposals on what to do with that land, including the land that the Coliseum sits on,” Ward 9 Coun. Tim Cartmell said Tuesday.

    He said administrative officials will discuss options for the area with surrounding neighbourhoods and communities.

    At an executive committee meeting last week, officials voted to finalize an agreement with the Oilers Entertainment Group about the permanent closure of the Coliseum. This would end a $17-million sponsorship deal negotiated with the group, as part of a memorandum of understanding in 2016 about the new downtown arena, Rogers Place.

    Last week, Cartmell said that by closing the Coliseum, the city was sending a clear message it was moving on from the idea of reviving the building as an assembly or arena space


    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...re-of-coliseum
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Move the VIA / Greyhound station there. Doing so would provide a connection to the LRT for VIA and Greyhound users, as well as allowing removal of the tracks next to 121 St and the Yellowhead rail overpass. That would in turn allow more connections to 121 St and simplify an integrated 127 / 124 / 121 St - Yellowhead interchange.
    Wouldn't a train station need to be close to the train tracks though ? It's not a very nice or short walk from the coliseum, over the LRT overpass to Belvedere where the tracks are.
    There are still tracks south off the mainline to the Coliseum. Not sure where you got the idea about Belvedere. The suggestion is to move the Via station to the area around Coliseum station.

    Not the tracks that run alongside the LRT station.


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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Move the VIA / Greyhound station there. Doing so would provide a connection to the LRT for VIA and Greyhound users, as well as allowing removal of the tracks next to 121 St and the Yellowhead rail overpass. That would in turn allow more connections to 121 St and simplify an integrated 127 / 124 / 121 St - Yellowhead interchange.
    Wouldn't a train station need to be close to the train tracks though ? It's not a very nice or short walk from the coliseum, over the LRT overpass to Belvedere where the tracks are.
    There are still tracks south off the mainline to the Coliseum. Not sure where you got the idea about Belvedere. The suggestion is to move the Via station to the area around Coliseum station.

    Not the tracks that run alongside the LRT station.

    Sorry, meant Fort Road

    That line that runs down the ROW is effectively just a spur... I suppose you could line down that spur then back up to the main line. That might work.
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    That's what they used to do downtown. And this would be a much shorter reversal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    So did we learn anything from Visions 2020? Or was all that just smoke and mirrors?
    I think the problem with Vision 2020 was twofold: 1) It was already too late for Northlands by that time anyways, and 2) Nobody really wanted what they were proposing, for the most part.

    The 100,000 person outdoor venue was not practical or viable, and not at all what the community wanted for the area. The coliseum reno could have had some traction but again with the Katz group having a chokehold over the building by way of the non-competition agreement it would have been next to impossible to move forward and raise any capital for such a venture

    It was a proposal from a group trying to stay viable and ultimately it didn't make a lot of sense. It makes sense to leverage what's already in the area for the south portion of the site and develop residential. The north site, difficult to say.
    Respondents I spoke with favoured the Hall D proposal more then anything.

    The racetrack proposal was disliked the most.

    The group felt it had to do something to save the coliseum building from the wrecking ball.
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    I'd rather see Borden Park expanded down to the Expo Centre. Put some sort of major attraction in the area such as the veledrome, if it's still looking for a home. It could even be a better home for the heritage festival since the LRT is close by and you wouldn't have the transportation problems that we saw last year.

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    Turn that arena into a velodrome along with other aspect where Olympic athletes could train if it is possible. Turn the top half of the arena into a living training centre. The structure is in great shape; and, they could potentially get some government funding for it
    .
    Some of the land should return back to the city for future residents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Turn that arena into a velodrome along with other aspect where Olympic athletes could train if it is possible. Turn the top half of the arena into a living training centre. The structure is in great shape; and, they could potentially get some government funding for it
    .
    Some of the land should return back to the city for future residents.
    As that would likely require some level of municipal support it likely would not be allowed under the arena framework, being a sporting use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    So did we learn anything from Visions 2020? Or was all that just smoke and mirrors?
    I think the problem with Vision 2020 was twofold: 1) It was already too late for Northlands by that time anyways, and 2) Nobody really wanted what they were proposing, for the most part.

    The 100,000 person outdoor venue was not practical or viable, and not at all what the community wanted for the area. The coliseum reno could have had some traction but again with the Katz group having a chokehold over the building by way of the non-competition agreement it would have been next to impossible to move forward and raise any capital for such a venture

    It was a proposal from a group trying to stay viable and ultimately it didn't make a lot of sense. It makes sense to leverage what's already in the area for the south portion of the site and develop residential. The north site, difficult to say.
    Respondents I spoke with favoured the Hall D proposal more then anything.

    The racetrack proposal was disliked the most.

    The group felt it had to do something to save the coliseum building from the wrecking ball.
    The Hall D proposal could have had legs. But required a significant investment that the city was not willing to fund.

    Yes the conversion of the racetrack to a concert site was pretty much universally loathed

    I don't necessarily think that most thought that the coliseum needed to be saved, Most were concerned about the site sitting vacant and derelict. Which it now is, in spite of promises made by our civic officials. At this point most in the area are not trusting of the city because the city has failed to live up to their promises. We'll see what this next round brings
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    Amateur training centre for Olympics athletes shouldn"t affect Rogers. This would be more of a specialized rec centre. I'm not referring it to be used a a competing ground but purely for training for their Olympic dreams.
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  45. #45

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    ^^
    It is not even two years since it closed. We just can't expect mcdrive through results though as things just don't work that way. Even those power centre takes time to develope. Ideas are still ruminating and that should be the proper procedure. Measure ten times and cut once not the other way around. 240, now that I know you weld and we both have worked up north, so you must have seen the cut ten times and measure once constant routine. Do we need that cheap method trickling down here. We have enough disasters from lack of experiemce and ill prepared plans such as the LRT, bridges and freeway, so I don't care for another mcdrive through process.
    Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 01-03-2018 at 05:10 PM.
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  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    ^^
    It is not even two years since it closed. We just can't expect mcdrive through results though as things just don't work that way. Even those power centre takes time to develope. Ideas are still ruminating and that should be the proper procedure. Measure ten times and cut once not the other way around. 240, now that I know you weld and we both have worked up north, so you must have seen the cut ten times and measure once constant routine. Do we need that cheap method trickling down here. We have enough disasters from lack of experiemce and ill prepared plans such as the LRT, bridges and freeway, so I don't care for another mcdrive through process.
    Yes, it is not easy to redevelop a site like this. Part of the problem is the size, the location of course is also an issue. I am sure the city could put something there quickly, but would it be the best use of the land in the long term and if it involves the city spending a lot of money, is that really such a good idea? We don't live in a centrally planned economy, so a lot of development is at the initiative of the private sector. They are not going to rush in unless or until they feel they can make money at it.

    A lot of interesting ideas have been put forth here and elsewhere and I think eventually the pieces will come together, hopefully with a good result, but it might take a few years to get there.

  47. #47

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    I'M not interested in the city venturing into commerce; what I would like is for the city to take over the city's land and sell them to developers, so they can progress our city. Perhaps my earlier comment was slighty vague. You're correct that this is is a huge undertaking hence why I think people need to stop this get it up mentality. If we had magic wands then that is different story. From conception to production is normally minimum 10 years for us; We are not Toronto or Vancouver where we have massive population migration growth that can consume real estate that fast, and we have to understand these obvious facts. The two mentioned cities also lack real estates hence why they can develope this type of area quickly- if they actually even have such parcels left in their central core.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    ^^
    It is not even two years since it closed. We just can't expect mcdrive through results though as things just don't work that way. Even those power centre takes time to develope. Ideas are still ruminating and that should be the proper procedure. Measure ten times and cut once not the other way around. 240, now that I know you weld and we both have worked up north, so you must have seen the cut ten times and measure once constant routine. Do we need that cheap method trickling down here. We have enough disasters from lack of experiemce and ill prepared plans such as the LRT, bridges and freeway, so I don't care for another mcdrive through process.
    I think you have me confused with someone else.. I've never been a welder (aside for playing with my little TIG in the garage) But I have managed a couple projects up north...

    Clearly the coliseum site will be more difficult to re-purpose, no doubt, as it has a number of unique variables to contend with. And it will take time. The issue I hear from stakeholders is not so much the time it will take, but how long it's taken to get to this point. I think everyone agrees that the process could have started a lot sooner, and we could have been further ahead if the city had been proactive. Better late than never.... bit of a sad city motto but I guess it's what we have here

    I hope we see some movement on the south (race track) lands this year though... not construction but planning and integration with all the other plans that are currently being developed for the entire area from the Muttart Lands and the Coliseum ARP. The Muttart lands will get some momentum going and will help add value to whatever they decide to do at the Northlands race track site
    Last edited by 240GLT; 02-03-2018 at 11:18 AM.
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    That is the way it should be; we were focussed on the arena and ID which we did. Now that it is under control, we turn the focus to here. We all walk one foot at a time; so should mega projects. If the stake holders are that antsy, what did they do to help expedite this now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    That is the way it should be; we were focussed on the arena and ID which we did. Now that it is under control, we turn the focus to here. We all walk one foot at a time; so should mega projects. If the stake holders are that antsy, what did they do to help expedite this now?
    No. A city should have the capacity to do more than one thing at once.
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    We do though. The LRT, bridges, infrastructures, Blatchford and more. We had how many problems the last five years. Why? Because we are chewing more than what we could handle at once hence why I'm OK with things slowing down a bit. Steady pace and no rush.
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    My guess is the Coliseum site will be a surface lot until the next coe administration. If its developed at all. But never say never.....
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    just out of curiousty, what was the land before the coloseum? im assuming just agricultural?

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    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    just out of curiousty, what was the land before the coloseum? im assuming just agricultural?
    i could be wrong but seem to recall being told that it used to be a lumber yard but can’t remember whose...
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    just out of curiousty, what was the land before the coloseum? im assuming just agricultural?
    i could be wrong but seem to recall being told that it used to be a lumber yard but can’t remember whose...
    It was Hayward Lumber Company as I recall.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by OLM View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    just out of curiousty, what was the land before the coloseum? im assuming just agricultural?
    i could be wrong but seem to recall being told that it used to be a lumber yard but can’t remember whose...
    It was Hayward Lumber Company as I recall.....

    About the site here:

    David Staples: The rise and fall of the Edmonton Coliseum | Edmonton Journal
    EDMONTON JOURNAL
    Published on: April 6, 2016

    http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/ho...onton-coliseum

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    Actually a lumbar yard was on the Muttart lands in the 1970's.
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  58. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OLM View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    just out of curiousty, what was the land before the coloseum? im assuming just agricultural?
    i could be wrong but seem to recall being told that it used to be a lumber yard but can’t remember whose...
    It was Hayward Lumber Company as I recall.....

    About the site here:

    David Staples: The rise and fall of the Edmonton Coliseum | Edmonton Journal
    EDMONTON JOURNAL
    Published on: April 6, 2016

    http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/ho...onton-coliseum
    i skimmed through it rougly.. the best i could find

    "The land turned out to be swampy. It had to be stabilized with crushed gravel."

    seems to me it was undeveloped land.

    edit: Which brings the question, what issues will developers have/find when they knock it down!
    Last edited by S3RI3S; 04-03-2018 at 08:33 PM. Reason: edit.

  59. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OLM View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    just out of curiousty, what was the land before the coloseum? im assuming just agricultural?
    i could be wrong but seem to recall being told that it used to be a lumber yard but can’t remember whose...
    It was Hayward Lumber Company as I recall.....

    About the site here:

    David Staples: The rise and fall of the Edmonton Coliseum | Edmonton Journal
    EDMONTON JOURNAL
    Published on: April 6, 2016

    http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/ho...onton-coliseum
    i skimmed through it rougly.. the best i could find

    "The land turned out to be swampy. It had to be stabilized with crushed gravel."

    seems to me it was undeveloped land.

    edit: Which brings the question, what issues will developers have/find when they knock it down!
    It did mention Hayward plus as you point out - a lot more. A great very detailed article actually but yes very long.

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    Sounds like there's a bit of a disconnect between the city reports and the legal framework that was signed for the new arena. Interesting to see what shakes out of this

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4091511/e...losure-report/
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    Well it one last flash of brilliance, it now looks like the city has committed to closing the coliseum permanently without possibility of re-purposing it for any reason at all, even if it is not a sporting or entertainment use, or else the city will forfeit it's $17 million dollars for the luxury box seat that no one uses

    Well I guess the only thing left to do is tear it down. Let's end this embarrassing, bumbling mess once and for all
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    City council has voted against exploring private options for the coliseum. The coliseum is officially closed, and will never re-open for any use. One can only surmise that demolition of the facility is imminent
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    When do the bulldozers move in? Demo it - put up a parking lot, dare I say, gravel?Jk guys. Sucks to hear but I agree with 240GLT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    City council has voted against exploring private options for the coliseum. The coliseum is officially closed, and will never re-open for any use. One can only surmise that demolition of the facility is imminent
    sometimes i think we’re so ham strung not just by a lack of imagination but by refusing to even allow for the possibility of imagination. we just move so easily from how we screwed up one thing to how to screw up the next thing. we throw millions at someone else’s ideas and events instead of growing our own. we hold architectural competitions and don’t follow the plans. we pick sleek bridge designs and change the seamless welds to bolted connections. we do the first lrt in a city if our size and then let it languish for decades and spend decades more picking the next route but never quite commiting to it. we spend half our time consulting with citizens who only understand half the issues big or small and then we ignore their recommendations anyway until the next round of public consultation starts all over again. and we do it with everything like it’s normal. it’s a good thing it’s friday.... happy spring everybody.
    Last edited by kcantor; 23-03-2018 at 10:45 PM.
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    Sadly, you are not wrong - at all. Only solution is forward though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Soderstrom View Post
    Sadly, you are not wrong - at all. Only solution is forward though.
    it’s kind of hard to move forward if you’re sitting down with your arms and legs crossed thinking you’ve got this nailed already.

    even those areas where we can see things happening are too often happening because someone dragged us there kicking and screaming, not because we were actually working hard to move things forward.
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    You nailed it.

    I've said this for 30 years.

    My dad has been saying this for 50 years.

    Maybe it's in our water lol.

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    Can the city break the agreement with Katz group that disenfranchises Rexall Place as a competitor for Rogers? I mean, it’s in the best interest of the public to keep that industry from being monopolized, and selling it off with stipulations to private interests to me is a far better idea than using tens of millions of tax payers dollars to demolish the thing.

    What are the legal repercussions of such a move?

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    A major lawsuit. A big pay out to Katz. The court upholding the agreement.

  70. #70

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    There are so many usage for this without competing with Rogers
    This is shameful to waste a good structure. This could be turned into a training ground for amature athletes for various sports of summer and winter. No wonder our province and country are in debt when our priority is like this.
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  71. #71

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    It's a great loacation why not mid rises mixed with retail ? Lrt is right there tons of traffic as Gretzky connects with yellowhead. And on a different note do you think that hotel across from there will convert to rental units ?

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    The Coliseum land is a great location. Maybe Northlands could expand into that area with a concert hall or something since we're getting so many concerts. Long & McQuade sees potential in that location across the street. They might know something we don't.
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  73. #73

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    Northlands as an organization is essentially dead. The Coliseum is done. The Expo centre is now run by Economic Development. The race track is closed. I wouldn't count on any major initiatives from them.

  74. #74

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    We have enough concert venues.

    ^^
    I say do both and add on a rec centre in the arena as well. Athletes in training could inspire and motivate young kids to become great contributes to society. Imagine working out with Olympic athletes. You often hear how new medalist were inspired by past champions and how they wanted to be like them.
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    Agreement with Katz precludes it's use for sports or entertainment.

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    The Expo Centre will be all by its lonesome out there, I wonder how long it will survive.

  77. #77

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    ^^
    We are aware of the agreement; a training centre for AMATURE athletes will affect Katz how? If Katz has a problem with that, i have no problem standing in front of him and eye to to eye to tell him off!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Agreement with Katz precludes it's use for sports or entertainment.
    Yes, I forgot about that.

    Most likely the Coliseum lands when the building comes down will turn into a LRT park n ride until a developer comes forward with a proposal.
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  79. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    ^^
    We are aware of the agreement; a training centre for AMATURE athletes will affect Katz how? If Katz has a problem with that, i have no problem standing in front of him and eye to to eye to tell him off!
    The agreement doesn't make an exception for amateur sports. So go ahead and tell him off. Let us know how that works out for you.

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    Not that it makes any difference but I'm on record of keeping the building and repurposing it for armature sports. That would be cool but the coe likes its surface parking lots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    The Expo Centre will be all by its lonesome out there, I wonder how long it will survive.
    it's only "all by its lonesome" because it doesn't connect to the coliseum... connect them, add a hotel or two and supporting retail and edmonton could move from the "b set" to the "a set" of conference and convention centres. done right, it would complement shaw (which can no longer be expanded as initially intended to enter that market). the hotels will come because we're already underserviced by as many as 4,000 rooms. it would be one of the few - if not the only - convention/conference centre in north america with sufficient sloped seating to host a keynote speaker in front of the whole conference.

    there's potential to integrate with the sound/recording stages for film and music and with sectors like artificial intelligence (both of which have already expressed their own interest in the building). it would attract sufficient fine grain service and support and retail to transition to and support the areas existing residential and will be serviced regionally by the yellowhead's upgrading and potential new intersections and alignments for gretzky drive. the race track land on the south side of expo hall could provide land for a temporary - or even permanent - transition uses to high density residential north of borden park - perhaps a permanent exhibition ground that would present an inviting view from the lrt instead of looking at the back of the barns. it could provide a permanent home for k-days and host conventions and conferences and sales meetings for producers of large equipment (combines or large trucks or helicopters that don't fit inside)...

    but no... we'll do the "edmonton thing", just like we did with the courthouse and the carnegie library and the tegler and our warehouse district and jasper east, and just like we're lining up to do with the old ram and the old remand centre. we'll spend more money to just tear it down to "create" an empty piece of dirt than the underlying land is worth.

    because, heaven knows, we don't have enough vacant land yet in this city.

    or, more accurately, we'll just tear it down because we don't have the imagination or the courage to figure out what to do with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    The Expo Centre will be all by its lonesome out there, I wonder how long it will survive.
    it's only "all by its lonesome" because it doesn't connect to the coliseum... connect them, add a hotel or two and supporting retail and edmonton could move from the "b set" to the "a set" of conference and convention centres. done right, it would complement shaw (which can no longer be expanded as initially intended to enter that market). the hotels will come because we're already underserviced by as many as 4,000 rooms. it would be one of the few - if not the only - convention/conference centre in north america with sufficient sloped seating to host a keynote speaker in front of the whole conference.

    there's potential to integrate with the sound/recording stages for film and music and with sectors like artificial intelligence (both of which have already expressed their own interest in the building). it would attract sufficient fine grain service and support and retail to transition to and support the areas existing residential and will be serviced regionally by the yellowhead's upgrading and potential new intersections and alignments for gretzky drive. the race track land on the south side of expo hall could provide land for a temporary - or even permanent - transition uses to high density residential north of borden park - perhaps a permanent exhibition ground that would present an inviting view from the lrt instead of looking at the back of the barns. it could provide a permanent home for k-days and host conventions and conferences and sales meetings for producers of large equipment (combines or large trucks or helicopters that don't fit inside)...

    but no... we'll do the "edmonton thing", just like we did with the courthouse and the carnegie library and the tegler and our warehouse district and jasper east, and just like we're lining up to do with the old ram and the old remand centre. we'll spend more money to just tear it down to "create" an empty piece of dirt than the underlying land is worth.

    because, heaven knows, we don't have enough vacant land yet in this city.

    or, more accurately, we'll just tear it down because we don't have the imagination or the courage to figure out what to do with it.
    Toss the idea to council. You have a grounded and experienced voice in the development community. It’s important to voice that experience to a lesser experienced government.

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    Lesser experienced government after 1 term?
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    Edmonton City council are a smart mix of people that arguably sometimes upon appearances make wrong decisions.
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    I’m not arguing intelligence here, Ken’s idea is a very good one that would hold weight if proposed. Therefore council should hear it.

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    no private company in their right mind is going to do anything with the Coliseum without significant money coming from the city. its going to be cheaper tearing it down than providing money to keep it running in the long run

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    City council has voted against exploring private options for the coliseum. The coliseum is officially closed, and will never re-open for any use. One can only surmise that demolition of the facility is imminent
    sometimes i think we’re so ham strung not just by a lack of imagination but by refusing to even allow for the possibility of imagination. we just move so easily from how we screwed up one thing to how to screw up the next thing. we throw millions at someone else’s ideas and events instead of growing our own. we hold architectural competitions and don’t follow the plans. we pick sleek bridge designs and change the seamless welds to bolted connections. we do the first lrt in a city if our size and then let it languish for decades and spend decades more picking the next route but never quite commiting to it. we spend half our time consulting with citizens who only understand half the issues big or small and then we ignore their recommendations anyway until the next round of public consultation starts all over again. and we do it with everything like it’s normal. it’s a good thing it’s friday.... happy spring everybody.
    I think part of it is being a prairie city. Why come up with creative solutions when you can just build it somewhere else? We have so much space that we don't even try to think creatively, because we don't need to.

    There are so many creative projects and ideas constantly being built in Vancouver. Some work, some don't. But I don't think it's because Vancouver is inherently a more creative place, it's because they need to do it. They can't grow out, so the only options are to build up, or to reuse existing sites to make them more efficient. If you wanted more rinks in a place like Vancouver, you need a creative solution to fit it somewhere, there's no other option. Edmonton there's always a brown or greenfield site you can put it that will be cheaper and easier.

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    A great idea actually. My instinct tells me we are going to regret this in 15 years.

    The further tragedy to this is another big dirt lot. Is that all we do Is built new on the long time dirt lot for another one only to stare at it for another 3 decades? Either these civic leaders truly have a passion to better our city with vivid imagination or step down for someone who truly has desire to pull us into a responsible direction. I encourage you all to call your a civic representative and remind them we are the voters after all. The next election won't be too long.
    Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 25-03-2018 at 12:18 PM.
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    The vote to close the Coliseum and demolish it was a close one -- 7-6. One vote would have swung it the other way. There were definitely interested parties ready to submit proposals to buy and use the building and land for purposes other than entertainment or sports, but there appeared to be a rush to get the demolition moving. Iveson and Katz must have had lunch last week.

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    Iveson was one of the most vocal in favour of bringing in the wrecking crews. "Lets meet for lunch Daryl, I'll leave the tip."
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Iveson was one of the most vocal in favour of bringing in the wrecking crews. "Lets meet for lunch Daryl, I'll leave the tip."
    He was downright snarly on TV, that councillors would not go along with him
    I sure hope he's punted next time!

  92. #92

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    New proposal for repurposing the Coliseum.

    Production company comes forward to try Hollywood ending to Coliseum demolition

    King Bridge Studios wants to repurpose the Coliseum, a building the president of partner company King Motion Picture Corporation values at $100,000,000.


    “There are no tax dollars involved,” said Doug Hutton. “We’re not asking for a nickel from any of the city departments. We’re not looking for any federal or provincial money, we just want to do this as a private enterprise initiative.”

    ---
    “We’ve done a lot of concerts,” Hutton said in a phone interview. “About 25 with the Edmonton Symphony and other groups. There is a world market for great music and I thought that that would be the first stage.”


    Which is the nub of the problem. The agreement the city has with the Oilers Entertainment Group (OEG) spells out no competing sports, or entertainment. Hutton said they are willing to go so far as to hook up with the federal competition bureau to ensure the OEG can’t force the Coliseum out of existence.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4106873/p...um-demolition/


  93. #93

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    They're calling it a "Hail Mary"...that doesn't sound very promising.

  94. #94
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    New proposal for repurposing the Coliseum.

    Production company comes forward to try Hollywood ending to Coliseum demolition

    King Bridge Studios wants to repurpose the Coliseum, a building the president of partner company King Motion Picture Corporation values at $100,000,000.


    “There are no tax dollars involved,” said Doug Hutton. “We’re not asking for a nickel from any of the city departments. We’re not looking for any federal or provincial money, we just want to do this as a private enterprise initiative.”

    ---
    “We’ve done a lot of concerts,” Hutton said in a phone interview. “About 25 with the Edmonton Symphony and other groups. There is a world market for great music and I thought that that would be the first stage.”


    Which is the nub of the problem. The agreement the city has with the Oilers Entertainment Group (OEG) spells out no competing sports, or entertainment. Hutton said they are willing to go so far as to hook up with the federal competition bureau to ensure the OEG can’t force the Coliseum out of existence.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4106873/p...um-demolition/

    Well isn't that interesting. Sounds like council has at least been aware of this for some time. I wonder why then, certain councilors are in such a rush to discount the proposal. It appears as though something a little fishy is going on.

    I wonder how well the sponsorship agreement would hold up at the competition bureau.
    Parkdale

  95. #95

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    This sponsorship agreement isn't exactly a non-competition agreement.

    I actually don't read anywhere anything about preventing all "sports and entertainment"...unless they're talking about paragraph 11.2 where "the City indemnifies and saves harmless...all loss, damages, etc."

    Then what's to say the folk/fringe festival that's going to draw people away from the arena isn't causing harm.

  96. #96

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    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  97. #97

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    Ah, thanks noodle...the one I found online on the City website only goes up to paragraph 14.12.

  98. #98

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    https://www.edmonton.ca/attractions_..._Agreement.pdf

    https://www.edmonton.ca/attractions_...documents.aspx

    There's the master agreement & a link to all the documents. Sucks that it's a PDF made of scanned images & not text so you gotta go through it by hand.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  99. #99
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    Probably not by accident.

  100. #100

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    And you'll noice that it says "sports", as in all sports. Nor professional. Not amateur. Any sports. And entertainment is very broad as well.

    Katz & company didn't even use any lube when he screwed us over with this and city council went along with it.

    Amazing what threatening to move a hockey team will do to people.

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