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Thread: Gibson Block | Discussion

  1. #1

    Default Gibson Block | Discussion

    Something needs to be done with this building, as seen in the first picture it is contributing nothing to the street, the building might as well appear boarded up.

    I know that a women's emergency shelter occupies the building, but can't they find a building better suited for their needs?

    Such a wasted opportunity...

    GIbson Block



    Sunday March 11, 2018 by Thomas Huizinga, on Flickr


    Sunday March 11, 2018 by Thomas Huizinga, on Flickr


    Sunday March 11, 2018 by Thomas Huizinga, on Flickr
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  2. #2

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    A note of disgust: look at the ugly '80s cement trash bin and planters in front of the building, how pathetic...
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  3. #3

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    It's a women's shelter. Come up with a suitable replacement and then we'll talk.

  4. #4

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    Walking down this stretch of Jasper last night after Crashed Ice was so cool with all of the pedestrian traffic and food trucks. Made me excited to see this area come alive!

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    This building is used, and used for an extremely important purpose. I find the whining oddly directed, given the number of other derelict buildings and vacant lots in the Quarters.

    Now, having said that, there was talk of the City allowing E4C to sublet some of the main floor for retail purposes (in the last Gibson Block thread). I wonder if anyone has a status report on that?
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  6. #6

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    I would think that a building owned by the organization itself & nearby the other social services in the city would be ideally suited for their needs & as such the Gibson Block is meeting these goals admirably.

    It is, however, an obstacle to the gentrification & urbanization-at-all-costs that many on the forums seem to advocate, so it's more a case of those people wanting the women's shelter to move for their own personal desires & not the needs or best interests of the shelter per se.

    I'm of the opinion they should hold on like a Chinese nail house until they can extract the maximum amount of capital possible from developers for their building.
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  7. #7

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    From the outside, the building looks like it's being well maintained. I have no problem with what's in there right now. Let's worry about keeping our stock of historical buildings alive first and foremost.

    Similar thoughts on that old proposed strip club in the Canada Permanent Building...too bad...that building is starting to look like it could use some TLC.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    From the outside, the building looks like it's being well maintained. I have no problem with what's in there right now. Let's worry about keeping our stock of historical buildings alive first and foremost.

    Similar thoughts on that old proposed strip club in the Canada Permanent Building...too bad...that building is starting to look like it could use some TLC.
    Someone could always stick some LEDs and other glowey bits on it and the boosters would love it.

  9. #9

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    While the women's shelter is there , they should remain there as it was that agency which save this historical structure from a bulldozer. These are women whom have been abused and battered which could be anyone. End of discussion for me, and a big thanks to them for saving our heritage! We can't always think of our selfish needs and wants all the time. It is not doing anything to the area? Not being a gravel lot is what it has done. The area is dull because all we see is runned down structures and dirt lots.
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  10. #10

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    The big empty lot/parking to the west is a much bigger problem than the Gibson Block to my mind.

  11. #11
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    First picture, centre window, top floor. Is someone flipping you off? Or maybe smoking where they shouldn't be?

    Anyway - I like the building, I like that it's a shelter, the building is in amazing shape for being restored 25 years ago. I was in it prior to restoration taking as-built drawings - that building wouldn't have stood for another year at that point. It was a very dangerous place to be. Was one of Edmonton's largest pigeon nests. Beautiful building and it's been kept up. Hope it's there in the same capacity for another 25.

  12. #12

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    The person just had her hand out of the window, probably smoking a cigarette but I didn't see any smoke.
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  13. #13

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    I am fine if they want to keep the building as a shelter but please allow the commercial retail bays on the first floor to be occupied. This building is a landmark in Edmonton, tourists and locals walk to it and are disappointed when they see nothing for them to do once they get there.
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    We are lucky to have this style of architecture in our city . Flatiron. Very few in Canada. I think once this area is rejuvenated, something will be done with the bottom floor and around the building. I can see this building becoming a show piece for the Quarter's area. It's such a beautiful and rare type of building not to be.
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    Looking at that first picture those retail bays would be so cool full of shops and really extend life into that area. I wonder if they are empty or part of the shelter as well? Either way a true gem of a building, may she live long and prosper.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    I am fine if they want to keep the building as a shelter but please allow the commercial retail bays on the first floor to be occupied. This building is a landmark in Edmonton, tourists and locals walk to it and are disappointed when they see nothing for them to do once they get there.
    It's only through the building being occupied via the current users that it's been maintained so that the tourists & locals can walk up to something other than a vacant lot or a toxic health hazard like it was before. You're basically saying to the shelter "you've done such a great job of maintaining your building that it's really a shame to let you continue to use it as you see fit."

    Ugh.
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    Except, as E4C themselves see fit, it appears they actually want to have retail on the main floor. The only thing that's been holding them back is a condition in the 1994 sale agreement between the City of Edmonton as vendor and E4C as purchaser, which required E4C to use the main floor for non-retail purposes for 35 years.

    More background here:

    Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation purchased the Gibson Block, located at 9608 Jasper Avenue, from the City in 1994 and renovated it to provide emergency accommodation and social support for homeless women. The City's Sale Agreement for the Gibson Block required that Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation use the ground floor for non-profit social housing or directly related ancillary facilities or activities(use restriction), for 35 years following the sale. In the event Edmonton City CentreChurch Corporation failed to comply with this provision, the City would be entitled to lease the ground floor for $1.00 per year or to exercise a buy-back option. SinceEdmonton City Centre Church Corporation's purchase of the property included social housing financing from Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the City's exercise of the lease or buy-back option, or waiver of these options, requires consent of CanadaMortgage and Housing Corporation.

    Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation has requested the City waive its lease and buy-back options and allow the ground floor to be used for a limited range of retail, restaurant and service uses that would generate revenue to off-set social program costs, and to provide training and employment opportunities for low-income persons.The expanded range of uses for the ground floor of the Gibson Block will also help achieve the City's vision for the Armature as a vibrant, pedestrian oriented promenade and shopping street.

    The City is advancing The Quarters Downtown Urban Design Plan which identifies anurban park on the east side of 96 Street (the Armature). To complete the land assemblyfor the park, the City needs to acquire a building owned by Edmonton City CentreChurch Corporation located at 10237 - 96 Street known as Gold Nugget Suites. One ofthe conditions precedent to entering into a sale agreement for Gold Nugget Suites isthat the City allow Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation to use the ground floor ofthe Gibson Block for a limited range of retail, service and restaurant uses.

    The cost to purchase and renovate an existing building or build a new building toreplace the Gold Nugget Suites is expected to exceed the market value of the GoldNugget Suites. Therefore, Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation has requestedfunding assistance from the City. Administration has agreed to set aside $600,000 ofCornerstones funding, for up to three years, to help Edmonton City Centre ChurchCorporation replace the ten affordable housing units provided by the Gold NuggetSuites. Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation will submit a Cornerstones GrantFunding Application for formal approval once the details of the replacement project havebeen finalized.

    Administration supports Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation's request andconsensus has been reached on the terms and conditions of the waiver agreement(Attachment 1) to achieve the desired objective.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

  18. #18

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    Big difference between "a limited range of retail, restaurant and service uses that would generate revenue to off-set social program costs, and to provide training and employment opportunities for low-income persons" & what the gentrification crew seem to be advocating/pining for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Big difference between "a limited range of retail, restaurant and service uses that would generate revenue to off-set social program costs, and to provide training and employment opportunities for low-income persons" & what the gentrification crew seem to be advocating/pining for.
    I think it's a fair request. I don't know much about this building but if it helps keep the housing program alive there than I say go for it.
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Big difference between "a limited range of retail, restaurant and service uses that would generate revenue to off-set social program costs, and to provide training and employment opportunities for low-income persons" & what the gentrification crew seem to be advocating/pining for.
    I think it's a fair request. I don't know much about this building but if it helps keep the housing program alive there than I say go for it.
    A bit more retail and street front activity would probably benefit the area too.

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    Gentrification can be sketchy and I share the concerns of guys like Noodle and replacement, but so far in Edmonton it seems to not be a major issue. The downtown is revitalizing but I have yet to see it drive homeless populations or low income demographs out of the areas being renewed. So I watch our story with a cautious eye.
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    Tell that to the people who were forced out of those four walk-ups where now is the Pearl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post


    Tell that to the people who were forced out of those four walk-ups where now is the Pearl.
    Weren't those units decrepit and barely habitable? To that I would counter that you're not seeing it happen en masse like you saw in some major US cities. True gentrification is the force-out of entire populaces of low income and under-privileged individuals which make up a community. It's forcing people out by paying off building inspectors or kicking them out for unreasonable/illegal demands. It's seeing entire rows of buildings torn down for hundreds of millions of dollars worth of development to replace it.

    I just haven't seen it here in my opinion.
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  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Big difference between "a limited range of retail, restaurant and service uses that would generate revenue to off-set social program costs, and to provide training and employment opportunities for low-income persons" & what the gentrification crew seem to be advocating/pining for.
    I think it's a fair request. I don't know much about this building but if it helps keep the housing program alive there than I say go for it.
    Totally a fair request from E4C.
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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post


    Tell that to the people who were forced out of those four walk-ups where now is the Pearl.
    Or the people in the MacDonald Lofts...
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    ...

    Or the people in the MacDonald Lofts...
    that one was a disaster waiting to happen from the day it was set up which wasn't all that long ago so i'm not even sure if the end result qualifies as gentrification in the traditional sense.

    as for the gibson block, there's no reason that main floor couldn't get activated on a basis similar to kids in the hall (or whatever the new name is) at city hall where it provides employment/training opportunities for those needing the shelter's services but also needing additional training to help in moving on from that.

    as for the shelter's location, it's close to our main transit hubs, it's close to macewen and norquest, and it's close to the services it's core clients are in need of (such as the courthouse) as well as outdoor park spaces and schools. it's almost easy to make the argument they contribute as much vibrancy to the quarters as an accounting firm on the top floor that's only open 9-5, 5 days a week.
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  27. #27

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    Bennifit how at this moment? There are no pedestrians around this corridor. Not every structure requires retail bays. There is a brand new structure on 129ave-97st that has sat empty for over a year qithout tennants. Conmectivity plays just as much importance as rwtail. We need to focus on that for this area as a priority l.
    Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 13-03-2018 at 03:28 PM.
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  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Except, as E4C themselves see fit, it appears they actually want to have retail on the main floor. The only thing that's been holding them back is a condition in the 1994 sale agreement between the City of Edmonton as vendor and E4C as purchaser, which required E4C to use the main floor for non-retail purposes for 35 years.

    More background here:

    Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation purchased the Gibson Block, located at 9608 Jasper Avenue, from the City in 1994 and renovated it to provide emergency accommodation and social support for homeless women. The City's Sale Agreement for the Gibson Block required that Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation use the ground floor for non-profit social housing or directly related ancillary facilities or activities(use restriction), for 35 years following the sale. In the event Edmonton City CentreChurch Corporation failed to comply with this provision, the City would be entitled to lease the ground floor for $1.00 per year or to exercise a buy-back option. SinceEdmonton City Centre Church Corporation's purchase of the property included social housing financing from Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the City's exercise of the lease or buy-back option, or waiver of these options, requires consent of CanadaMortgage and Housing Corporation.

    Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation has requested the City waive its lease and buy-back options and allow the ground floor to be used for a limited range of retail, restaurant and service uses that would generate revenue to off-set social program costs, and to provide training and employment opportunities for low-income persons.The expanded range of uses for the ground floor of the Gibson Block will also help achieve the City's vision for the Armature as a vibrant, pedestrian oriented promenade and shopping street.

    The City is advancing The Quarters Downtown Urban Design Plan which identifies anurban park on the east side of 96 Street (the Armature). To complete the land assemblyfor the park, the City needs to acquire a building owned by Edmonton City CentreChurch Corporation located at 10237 - 96 Street known as Gold Nugget Suites. One ofthe conditions precedent to entering into a sale agreement for Gold Nugget Suites isthat the City allow Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation to use the ground floor ofthe Gibson Block for a limited range of retail, service and restaurant uses.

    The cost to purchase and renovate an existing building or build a new building toreplace the Gold Nugget Suites is expected to exceed the market value of the GoldNugget Suites. Therefore, Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation has requestedfunding assistance from the City. Administration has agreed to set aside $600,000 ofCornerstones funding, for up to three years, to help Edmonton City Centre ChurchCorporation replace the ten affordable housing units provided by the Gold NuggetSuites. Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation will submit a Cornerstones GrantFunding Application for formal approval once the details of the replacement project havebeen finalized.

    Administration supports Edmonton City Centre Church Corporation's request andconsensus has been reached on the terms and conditions of the waiver agreement(Attachment 1) to achieve the desired objective.

    Can this contract to be renegotiated? Edmonton is shooting itself in the foot for not allowing ground floor commercial in the building.
    Last edited by ThomasH; 18-03-2018 at 09:58 AM.
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    Having spoken with the occupant/tenant, it seems as though they could use more functional, large and connected space.
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  30. #30

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    How much more? Enough to look for new space or could there be potential expansion just west of it- if plausible?
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    On one side I am glad that this building was saved and restored, regardless of the usage of the building, although on the other side it would be nice if this building (especially the ground level) be activated with a use that would attract pedestrians and potential patrons to the area.
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    Just out of curiosity why would the city have wanted to restrict the ground floor usage for such a long period? i agree, it seems irrational.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Soderstrom View Post
    Just out of curiosity why would the city have wanted to restrict the ground floor usage for such a long period? i agree, it seems irrational.
    the city would have "single sourced" the sale of the building to a non-profit at the time the deal was done which they were and are entitled to do.

    the law department was probably more stringent/cautious then than they might be now about the building being retained for the non-profit use for which it was being gifted to make sure they weren't running afoul of provincial requirements for the disposition of municipal assets without tendering.
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    Ahhh, I see. Thanks!

  35. #35

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    It might also have to do with ensuring the shelter isn't caught in a situation of using non-profit funds for commercial/property management costs.

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    The building is in good shape and well utilized, for sure allow main floor retail, but why mess with something that is working?

  37. #37

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    If they are willing for such purpose. Incase you all don't know, there is hardly to no foot traffic there at this moment. In the future that will change then we'll/should revisit this idea. How many store fronts do we need ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    The building is in good shape and well utilized, for sure allow main floor retail, but why mess with something that is working?
    The interior certainly is not in good shape.
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  39. #39

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    I used to walk past there each day and would see some women trying to have a cigarette on the sidewalk but they had to just stand there as it has no room for a bench or any other outside space. I think it's great that the building was renovated when it was on the brink of succumbing to the elements but that doesn't make it the best choice for their clients. It should be easy to find a larger building - perhaps closer to the recreation centre just a few blocks north - where they could have some additional space and some fenced secure outdoor space. That would be a win/win situation. I have no idea how that would come about unless the organization that runs the shelter makes the fist move to test the market. They get a bigger, quieter space with more secure outdoor areas, perhaps even balconies or some other sort of upper deck, and Jasper Ave gets a great facility for restaurants or night life.

  40. #40

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    Are you going to pay for this new building for them? If so, go for it.

  41. #41

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    I love how people express their minds for the purpose of their desired pleasure and forget the pertinent issue at hand. Who will pay for their new structure?
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  42. #42

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    Building swap.
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  43. #43

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    Building swap will also cost money to upgrade that for their needs, so, once again, who is willing to pay the money?
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    The building is in good shape and well utilized, for sure allow main floor retail, but why mess with something that is working?
    The interior certainly is not in good shape.
    i suppose that depends on the standards and objectives you want to apply... it did after all not too recently survive a fire with the damage being limited to one suite from the fire and a bit of water elsewhere.

    if you want "not in good shape", that would look more like this:

    20160830_162644 by cdnklc, on Flickr
    20160830_162715 by cdnklc, on Flickr
    20160830_163949 by cdnklc, on Flickr
    20160830_164313 by cdnklc, on Flickr
    Last edited by kcantor; 21-03-2018 at 02:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Building swap will also cost money to upgrade that for their needs, so, once again, who is willing to pay the money?
    Put it on the market. Asking price is a brand new building, with the listed/required amenities (as spec'd by the non-profit), within an XX min walk of the current location, along with cash to be placed in a trust to support the non profit. They can reject whatever offer they want if they don't like it.

    I'm sure a developer or two would have the vision to come up with a great alternative that would put the non profit on very secure footing, in a similar location, while giving the developer a prized location.

  46. #46

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    Sounds very easy, so im curious from experienced hands like Ken's point of view on this. Personally, I would think somebody would be at a lost with this deal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Sounds very easy, so im curious from experienced hands like Ken's point of view on this. Personally, I would think somebody would be at a lost with this deal.
    there's nothing to it really...

    just build a brand new building and then give it away along with a whole pile of cash, all for the chance to spend even more money renovating an old building.

    it makes perfect sense - you only have to find one of those old developer's printing presses that run in our basements printing dollar bills on demand and let it run overtime for a month or three.
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  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Sounds very easy, so im curious from experienced hands like Ken's point of view on this. Personally, I would think somebody would be at a lost with this deal.
    there's nothing to it really...

    just build a brand new building and then give it away along with a whole pile of cash, all for the chance to spend even more money renovating an old building.

    it makes perfect sense - you only have to find one of those old developer's printing presses that run in our basements printing dollar bills on demand and let it run overtime for a month or three.
    Bitcoin mining on the main floor - government donates solar panels and all
    the free electricity the non profit needs - how much could that be. Oh, just don’t mention the bitcoin thing.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Building swap will also cost money to upgrade that for their needs, so, once again, who is willing to pay the money?
    The organization is a part of City Centre Church is it not? The church might have money, it would also be able to raise funds.
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  50. #50

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    Not the point Thomas. We keep asking others to fork out money for our pleasure. Do you personally spend on whims for the sake of desirement? Would it not make sense to utilize the donations you speak off to further assists other pertinent issues?
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  51. #51

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    While I don't have a stake in city centre church, I do have a stake in the city of Edmonton. That corner of the city has so much potential, imagine something like Starbucks in the corner of Gibson Block and the positive effect something like that would have to the pedestrian realm. Gibson Block right now is woefully undervalued. Especially when you consider the all the new development happening in the Quarters. I wonder how much Gibson Block is worth? I bet it could easily fetch over 10 million dollars. How much does a standard 60s 3 story walk up apartment cost?
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    The people in the Gibson Block have a stake in the city of Edmonton too.

  53. #53

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    Then our interests should be aligned should they not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Sounds very easy, so im curious from experienced hands like Ken's point of view on this. Personally, I would think somebody would be at a lost with this deal.
    there's nothing to it really...

    just build a brand new building and then give it away along with a whole pile of cash, all for the chance to spend even more money renovating an old building.

    it makes perfect sense - you only have to find one of those old developer's printing presses that run in our basements printing dollar bills on demand and let it run overtime for a month or three.
    I don't think any developer would be looking just to renovate the building. They'd be looking to assemble a package with the Impark lot next door to mate a mid rise tower with it. Or add a skinny tower on top, or just a level or two, similar to what you're already doing down the street.

    I'm sure that developers could wrangle conditional deals with other lots in the area to either buy a lot and build a new shelter if they win, or buy an older walk up and renovate/add on to suit the foundation's needs. The cash or part of it could be conditional on a variety of things, including city approval for a reno/addition to the block, or first income/sale of the units in the block.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    Then our interests should be aligned should they not?
    Not everyone has the same vision for the City of Edmonton.

  56. #56

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    I'm well aware of that Channing but I doubt their vision includes stagnation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Not everyone has the same vision for the City of Edmonton.
    Re quoted for emphasis.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  58. #58

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    Lets just kick out all the less desirable people and services so we can have a friggen starbucks or something, and all the uppities can pat each other on the back as they sip their over priced heated bean water. "We did it"

    Good lord what a load of sh... There's so much other stuff that can be done in the quarters to improve the pedestrian feel and make the whole neighbourhood better, and the starbucks that's so highly wanted can go on a different block.

  59. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    While I don't have a stake in city centre church, I do have a stake in the city of Edmonton. That corner of the city has so much potential, imagine something like Starbucks in the corner of Gibson Block and the positive effect something like that would have to the pedestrian realm. Gibson Block right now is woefully undervalued. Especially when you consider the all the new development happening in the Quarters. I wonder how much Gibson Block is worth? I bet it could easily fetch over 10 million dollars. How much does a standard 60s 3 story walk up apartment cost?
    There is potentual in this space in the FUTURE. At this moment, there is no foot traffic; no people living within short distances;
    there are massive dirt lots. Who in their mind would open anything up right now
    The best pho restaurant in Edmonton on 95st. closed down because there was not enough foot traffic with residential to its east and directly south of it; the Thai restaurant next to it is in trouble because of no traffic. So tell me again how this is going to work especially when there is not residents around except above? Either I need to retake commerce at Uo A or you are way too over optimistic at this stage. I think it's the latter and no offence to you. If that LM park is full daily, i see your point.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  60. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Lets just kick out all the less desirable people and services so we can have a friggen starbucks or something, and all the uppities can pat each other on the back as they sip their over priced heated bean water. "We did it"

    Good lord what a load of sh... There's so much other stuff that can be done in the quarters to improve the pedestrian feel and make the whole neighbourhood better, and the starbucks that's so highly wanted can go on a different block.
    Abusers can be from wealth as well Matt. Women that are abused by men are not less desirable but victoms. The same with men who are abused.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  61. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Lets just kick out all the less desirable people and services so we can have a friggen starbucks or something, and all the uppities can pat each other on the back as they sip their over priced heated bean water. "We did it"

    Good lord what a load of sh... There's so much other stuff that can be done in the quarters to improve the pedestrian feel and make the whole neighbourhood better, and the starbucks that's so highly wanted can go on a different block.
    Starbucks yeah! Maybe they can reintroduce this mug!

    Gibson Block Coffee Cup © Hugh Lee 2017 by Nothing to see here people...move along
    Violating Foolhardy Tyranny

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    While I don't have a stake in city centre church, I do have a stake in the city of Edmonton. That corner of the city has so much potential, imagine something like Starbucks in the corner of Gibson Block and the positive effect something like that would have to the pedestrian realm. Gibson Block right now is woefully undervalued. Especially when you consider the all the new development happening in the Quarters. I wonder how much Gibson Block is worth? I bet it could easily fetch over 10 million dollars. How much does a standard 60s 3 story walk up apartment cost?
    There is potentual in this space in the FUTURE. At this moment, there is no foot traffic; no people living within short distances;
    there are massive dirt lots. Who in their mind would open anything up right now
    The best pho restaurant in Edmonton on 95st. closed down because there was not enough foot traffic with residential to its east and directly south of it; the Thai restaurant next to it is in trouble because of no traffic. So tell me again how this is going to work especially when there is not residents around except above? Either I need to retake commerce at Uo A or you are way too over optimistic at this stage. I think it's the latter and no offence to you. If that LM park is full daily, i see your point.
    I don't think the problem is the lack of foot traffic and even if it is, big projects are being proposed and being built close by so foot traffic will increase. I think another, perhaps bigger problem is a lot of people who live to the east quickly walk or drive by, but there is no nice retail in the area so they do not stop on that block. I think the addition of anything nice retail on the block would quickly start to change the dynamic. It is certainly the right time for it now.

  63. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    Then our interests should be aligned should they not?
    They want to stay. You want to boot them out. How is that aligned?

  64. #64

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    Aligned as in wanting to reopen the commercial bays on the main floor? Aligned as in making the streets safe enough for women to walk freely on?

    At no point have I ever advocated the booting out of undesirables. Those people have always been there, that doesn't mean that they have to be there by themselves.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Lets just kick out all the less desirable people and services so we can have a friggen starbucks or something, and all the uppities can pat each other on the back as they sip their over priced heated bean water. "We did it"

    Good lord what a load of sh... There's so much other stuff that can be done in the quarters to improve the pedestrian feel and make the whole neighbourhood better, and the starbucks that's so highly wanted can go on a different block.
    I don't think it has to be Starbucks, I'm not a Starbucks fan anyways and perhaps that is not the best fit for the area. However it is street level space, really designed for retail. For gods sake put something retail in the area, even a decent dollar store or a convenience store, whatever. The people who live in the area are not being well served by empty or underutilized retail space.

  66. #66

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    The vacant lots are a much greater detriment to the area that one building with empty storefronts.

  67. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    The vacant lots are a much greater detriment to the area that one building with empty storefronts.
    Couldn't agree more & there's been precious little movement on that front in the decade+ since I lived in The Quarters.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  68. #68

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    Unfortunately, parking lots are everywhere, and require more motivation to do something with. Gibson Block is already there, ready for use.

    Having said that, who owns the parking lot on the west side of the building?
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  69. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    While I don't have a stake in city centre church, I do have a stake in the city of Edmonton. That corner of the city has so much potential, imagine something like Starbucks in the corner of Gibson Block and the positive effect something like that would have to the pedestrian realm. Gibson Block right now is woefully undervalued. Especially when you consider the all the new development happening in the Quarters. I wonder how much Gibson Block is worth? I bet it could easily fetch over 10 million dollars. How much does a standard 60s 3 story walk up apartment cost?
    There is potentual in this space in the FUTURE. At this moment, there is no foot traffic; no people living within short distances;
    there are massive dirt lots. Who in their mind would open anything up right now
    The best pho restaurant in Edmonton on 95st. closed down because there was not enough foot traffic with residential to its east and directly south of it; the Thai restaurant next to it is in trouble because of no traffic. So tell me again how this is going to work especially when there is not residents around except above? Either I need to retake commerce at Uo A or you are way too over optimistic at this stage. I think it's the latter and no offence to you. If that LM park is full daily, i see your point.
    I don't think the problem is the lack of foot traffic and even if it is, big projects are being proposed and being built close by so foot traffic will increase. I think another, perhaps bigger problem is a lot of people who live to the east quickly walk or drive by, but there is no nice retail in the area so they do not stop on that block. I think the addition of anything nice retail on the block would quickly start to change the dynamic. It is certainly the right time for it now.
    Go sit in a vehicle and park yourself there daily for a week and you will see what I mean. Foot traffic is very pertinent for an area without a drive through. Population is none to limited. We might as well build a Wal-Mart out in the farm field then. Let see how they will do. I'm sure they'll get the odd customers. However, at the end of the day, there has to be a check and balance between purchasing. selling, and profitting. There will not be a balance right now. I'll bet money on it, and i dont gamble what so ever. When residents come, that is a new ball game. That won't happen for 4 more years, so one better have deep pockets to throw out for 4 years and hope that it succeeds when new population condense the area. Look at 104st. with the failures in a dense area and office workers to compliment. I'll finance Thomas for a coffee shop or what ever. We'll agree on compensation on failure. I smell a pay check for me, but I cant guaranty any for Thomas.
    Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 22-03-2018 at 11:27 AM.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  70. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    Gibson Block is already there, ready for use.
    And it's only there due to the significant efforts of those you'd like to displace so you can get your gentrification on.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  71. #71
    Addicted to C2E
    Mr. Reality Check

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    While I don't have a stake in city centre church, I do have a stake in the city of Edmonton. That corner of the city has so much potential, imagine something like Starbucks in the corner of Gibson Block and the positive effect something like that would have to the pedestrian realm. Gibson Block right now is woefully undervalued. Especially when you consider the all the new development happening in the Quarters. I wonder how much Gibson Block is worth? I bet it could easily fetch over 10 million dollars. How much does a standard 60s 3 story walk up apartment cost?
    over 10 million!!! wow...

    let's see... based on a quick google earth outline, the footprint of the gibson block is giver or take 3,500 sf.

    the building has 4 floors for a total area of 14,000 sf and it's safe to assume you will lose at least 20% of that for stairwells and circulation so you'll end up with about 11,200 sf if you're lucky.

    so, at 10,000,000 you're valuing the gibson block at just under 900 psf and that's before you spend another 2-300 psf getting it renovated so lets say 1,150 psf in total.

    that's only about 50% higher than reported asking prices for sky residence condos that include underground parking. you could buy a lower level resale unit in the pearl right now for under 600 psf and a penthouse for less than 700 psf.

    if you wanted to hold it as rental residential instead of selling it, if you were prepared to accept a 4% return, your rents for a 500 sf unit would have to be approximately 2,500 per month.

    if you wanted to hold it as revenue producing office space, if you were prepared to accept a 6%return, your rents would have to be approximately $70 psf.

    don't give up your day job...

    i know that 10,000,000 was an emotional valuation and not a real one, it's just that you don't move the conversation forward by just throwing stuff out there to try and make a point.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  72. #72

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    Ken, stop clouding the issue with facts.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    The vacant lots are a much greater detriment to the area that one building with empty storefronts.
    Couldn't agree more & there's been precious little movement on that front in the decade+ since I lived in The Quarters.
    the vacant main floor of the gibson block could be activated for substantially less than the cost of developing new space on a vacant lot while at the same time contributing to the potential future development of those vacant lots. there's two or even three separate discussions going on here that need to be differentiated.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  74. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    While I don't have a stake in city centre church, I do have a stake in the city of Edmonton. That corner of the city has so much potential, imagine something like Starbucks in the corner of Gibson Block and the positive effect something like that would have to the pedestrian realm. Gibson Block right now is woefully undervalued. Especially when you consider the all the new development happening in the Quarters. I wonder how much Gibson Block is worth? I bet it could easily fetch over 10 million dollars. How much does a standard 60s 3 story walk up apartment cost?
    There is potentual in this space in the FUTURE. At this moment, there is no foot traffic; no people living within short distances;
    there are massive dirt lots. Who in their mind would open anything up right now
    The best pho restaurant in Edmonton on 95st. closed down because there was not enough foot traffic with residential to its east and directly south of it; the Thai restaurant next to it is in trouble because of no traffic. So tell me again how this is going to work especially when there is not residents around except above? Either I need to retake commerce at Uo A or you are way too over optimistic at this stage. I think it's the latter and no offence to you. If that LM park is full daily, i see your point.
    I don't think the problem is the lack of foot traffic and even if it is, big projects are being proposed and being built close by so foot traffic will increase. I think another, perhaps bigger problem is a lot of people who live to the east quickly walk or drive by, but there is no nice retail in the area so they do not stop on that block. I think the addition of anything nice retail on the block would quickly start to change the dynamic. It is certainly the right time for it now.
    Go sit in a vehicle and park yourself there daily for a and you will see what I mean. Foot traffic is very pertinent for an area without a drive through. Population is none to limited. We might as built a Wal-Mart out in the farm field then. Let see how they will do. I'm sure they'll get the odd customers. However, at the end of the day, there has to be a check and balance between purchasing. Selling, and profitting. There will not be a balance right now. I'll bet money on it, and i dont gamble what so ever.
    A simple way to see it is that your first customers of the day and often throughout much of the day, just cover your sunk costs, your fixed and variable costs (many of which are sunk costs).

    It’s only with the last customers of the day where you hope to make all your profits.

    Monthly front-ended costs are liabilities from the get go. It might take much of a month before any profits whatsoever are in sight.
    Last edited by KC; 22-03-2018 at 11:34 AM.

  75. #75

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    You got that right! If there is profit or even margin.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  76. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    the vacant main floor of the gibson block could be activated for substantially less than the cost of developing new space on a vacant lot while at the same time contributing to the potential future development of those vacant lots. there's two or even three separate discussions going on here that need to be differentiated.
    Agree wholeheartedly. I'd love for the CoE to waive off the restrictions on what the shelter can do with their main floor so they can utilize it for retail-oriented program efforts to supplement their existing efforts & reap more from their past investments in the building/community.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  77. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Ken, stop clouding the issue with facts.
    Should we sugar coat matters?
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  78. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    The vacant lots are a much greater detriment to the area that one building with empty storefronts.
    Couldn't agree more & there's been precious little movement on that front in the decade+ since I lived in The Quarters.
    the vacant main floor of the gibson block could be activated for substantially less than the cost of developing new space on a vacant lot while at the same time contributing to the potential future development of those vacant lots. there's two or even three separate discussions going on here that need to be differentiated.
    Yes, the vacant lots are detrimental too, but it is not just one building with an empty store front. The whole block has no retail. Why would any one fill the empty lots, until at least some of the existing retail level space becomes more actively used? There is a new hotel just down the street, a condo under construction down the road and a big building proposed across the street. Like it or not, the area is changing, now that doesn't necessarily mean gentrification, but it means using the space for retail makes more sense now.

  79. #79

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    So now the shelter has to be landlords to retail operations as well as to the women that are living there. They moved in and saved the building from what would have likely been continued neglect and eventual demolition. That's the way heritage buildings are often treated here. Put them on the historic registry, ignore them as they fall apart, tear them down while saying "There was nothing that could be done." Lather, rinse, repeat.

    Turning a women's shelter into a retail destination is not the solution. Get the Ukrainian Museum project going again. Renovate or redevelop the vacant buildings and lots. Blaming the women's shelter for the lack of street activity is not the way to fix this.

  80. #80

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    Thanks for the reality check Ken! As you already know, I am no expert in real estate. lol My son is sick so I am staying home with him for the day hence my presence here.

    My 10 million dollar assumption is based on what I thought would cost to build an identical "Gibson Block" from scratch. So I guess a purchased and renovated-to-suit Gibson Block might cost around $6,300,000?
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  81. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    So now the shelter has to be landlords to retail operations as well as to the women that are living there.
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Turning a women's shelter into a retail destination is not the solution.
    I was thinking more like what e4c did with Kids in The Hall in City Hall, providing retraining & development opportunities for the women in their programs.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  82. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    So now the shelter has to be landlords to retail operations as well as to the women that are living there. They moved in and saved the building from what would have likely been continued neglect and eventual demolition. That's the way heritage buildings are often treated here. Put them on the historic registry, ignore them as they fall apart, tear them down while saying "There was nothing that could be done." Lather, rinse, repeat.

    Turning a women's shelter into a retail destination is not the solution. Get the Ukrainian Museum project going again. Renovate or redevelop the vacant buildings and lots. Blaming the women's shelter for the lack of street activity is not the way to fix this.
    The whole block was originally designed to be retail space. Certainly this building was with its large main floor windows facing the street and corner was. It is probably the best located on that block for retail. It is not the womens' shelter fault. The upper floors and space not facing the street are still well suited for them. If I had a dollar for the thousands of times people have complained about the lack of street front retail in downtown Edmonton, I would be a millionaire. This space and street is designed for that.

  83. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    My 10 million dollar assumption is based on what I thought would cost to build an identical "Gibson Block" from scratch. So I guess a purchased and renovated-to-suit Gibson Block might cost around $6,300,000?
    FWIW, the building has a valuation of $849,000 for property taxes.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  84. #84

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    Alright then, thanks for the info noodle. I guess I shouldn't be surprised given the reputation this area has had for such a long time.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Lets just kick out all the less desirable people and services so we can have a friggen starbucks or something, and all the uppities can pat each other on the back as they sip their over priced heated bean water. "We did it"

    Good lord what a load of sh... There's so much other stuff that can be done in the quarters to improve the pedestrian feel and make the whole neighbourhood better, and the starbucks that's so highly wanted can go on a different block.
    Abusers can be from wealth as well Matt. Women that are abused by men are not less desirable but victoms. The same with men who are abused.
    Anonymous user who seems to think its okay to use my first name, even though I haven't give you permission, I never said anything about wealth.

  86. #86

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    Just a slip of the tongue. I wasn't trying to insult you, but you mentioned "less desirable." Wealthy people can be victoms of violence as well or no? They are not leas desirable.This is a shelter for them to go to escape that violence until they can arrange their accommodation with protection from the law. That term you use was wrong and offensive. I was abused and left for dead at 6ish years old, so im classified as less desirable now?
    Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 22-03-2018 at 01:34 PM.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  87. #87

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    How is it wrong when people on this thread are advocating removing the shelter and replacing it with something more to their liking? It doesn't sound like people are calling the current tenants desirable. What's the opposite of desirable? Shove them off someplace out of the way where we don't have to think about them while I sip my latte in front of the new, hipster coffee place and pat myself on the back for making the street so much better.

    Yeah, sounds like the women of the shelter are really wanted here. You might even call them undesirable.

  88. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    How is it wrong when people on this thread are advocating removing the shelter and replacing it with something more to their liking? It doesn't sound like people are calling the current tenants desirable. What's the opposite of desirable? Shove them off someplace out of the way where we don't have to think about them while I sip my latte in front of the new, hipster coffee place and pat myself on the back for making the street so much better.

    Yeah, sounds like the women of the shelter are really wanted here. You might even call them undesirable.
    ?
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  89. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Just a slip of the tongue. I wasn't trying to insult you, but you mentioned "less desirable." Wealthy people can be victoms of violence as well or no? They are not leas desirable.This is a shelter for them to go to escape that violence until they can arrange their accommodation with protection from the law. That term you use was wrong and offensive. I was abused and left for dead at 6ish years old, so im classified as less desirable now?
    less desirables wasn't meant as a dig to the people that need these services, but rather a shelter or services in the area are seen as less desirable than a starbucks cafe, or the newest gastro-pub to certain people who are infatuated with skyrises and urban developments, and gentrification.

  90. #90

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    And the people that use the Starbucks or the gastro-pub certanly don't want "those people" hanging around, even if they live there.

  91. #91

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    How about a second hand clothing store for women, a dollar store and a convenience store, instead? It could be retail that would benefit people who live nearby or regularly go through the area. It doesn't have to be some fancy upscale place. Right now that stretch is a retail desert and that does not benefit the city.

  92. #92

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    Thank you for clarifying that Med!
    ^^
    You are underestimating people's level of compassion. Abused does not equate to drug induced lifestyles that drains society of finances or lazy population that schemes their ways in life. People with mental illnesses are exceptions.

    ^
    That could work Dave, but i can't see people going there. There use to be a Thrift Store directly behind that and failed miserably.

    I'm not against retail at all, but we are not at the organic growth level for that corridor yet; once Brighton Block and Ukrainian museum are established then we look at possible retail on that street as it becomes more animated. Aldritt and Corner1 will push that into turbo drive. I'm like everyone that want transformation to the area badly. I have stated in the past and will reiterate that this area has the best fung shei of the downtown core by far. There was a reason that the original China town was on this strip until the landlords demanded exorbitant prices for run down buildings that they did not up keep.
    Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 22-03-2018 at 06:36 PM.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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