Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Do police, security guards, patrols, etc. de-escalate or escalate situations?

  1. #1

    Default Do police, security guards, patrols, etc. de-escalate or escalate situations?

    Last week I saw a video of an American tackled by US police and was thinking that the cops in this situation just lacked the skills/ability/mental capacity to stay calm* and controlled. Then coincidentally this Canadian discussion came up today.


    As police-involved deaths climb in Canada, mother of man shot by police says little has changed | CBC Radio


    Listen:


    http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/t...nged-1.4605396



    Groundbreaking CBC data: Highest rates for police-involved deaths found in B.C.
    B.C. has highest rate of police fatalities per capita in the country: 98 deaths since 2000


    Yvette Brend - CBC News

    5 Hours Ago

    More than 70 per cent of the fatal incidents CBC compiled in a new database involved people with mental health or substance abuse issues. Comments about the public database can be sent to [email protected]. (Jacques Marcoux/CBC)

    "We really preach to take a step back, slow things down. We'd like to have zero deaths," said Massine.

    "We are human beings. I still haven't met anybody who suits up hoping to hurt somebody that day. It's life-changing."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...base-1.4603820



    Here’s the US video I saw last week.

    Alton Sterling: Cop dismissed over deadly Baton Rouge shooting - BBC News
    31 March 2018

    A white police officer who shot and killed a black man in the US state of Louisiana has been dismissed from the force.

    A second white officer involved in the deadly shooting of Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge in 2016 has been suspended.
    Video footage showing the officers holding down Mr Sterling, 37, as one fired his gun, sparked days of protests in the city.

    Earlier this week it was announced the pair would not face criminal charges.
    Mr Sterling was shot after a resident reported being threatened by a black man selling CDs.
    Police said Mr Sterling was trying to pull a loaded gun out of his pocket when he was shot.


    The police department has released a series of videos - from the officer's body cameras, a police car dash camera and a store security camera - showing the confrontation and deadly shooting.

    Chief Paul described them as "graphic and shocking to the conscience".


    The Louisiana prosecutor said the results could indicate that "Sterling was under the influence and that contributed to his noncompliance".
    ...

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43604048

    * I think the average person (absolutely the average male) would fail miserably at de-escalating and dealing with non-compliant, hostile, rude, socially inept, etc individuals (are they mostly males as well?). I know sure couldn’t deal with what the cops deal with daily. (Or for that matter waitresses, nurses, flight attendants, ...) I wouldn’t go near some of those jobs.


    Bolding is mine
    Last edited by KC; 05-04-2018 at 09:01 AM.

  2. #2
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    1,419

    Default

    ^it depends on the officer. Different personalities deal with situations differently. Although, I'm certain some suspects are just so unreasonable that no amount of patience will pacify the situation...

  3. #3

    Default

    I believe that US policies have changed.

    No more will active shooters be confronted by swarms of local police. No negotiators are sent in. SWAT teams are told to stand down and are asked to leave.

    Now Trump sends in NRA trained hunter-killer teams of math teachers to take down the active shooter.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  4. #4

    Default

    EPS officers all (or at least used to) go through "Verbal Judo" training. Many other jurisdictions, including those in the US, also do the training. The purpose of course is to teach officers the skills in maintaining and/or achieving calm in various situations.

    The training expanded greatly after the Rodney King situation, as for how many are using it today, no idea, but it was proven to help at the time of it being offered widely.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I believe that US policies have changed.

    No more will active shooters be confronted by swarms of local police. No negotiators are sent in. SWAT teams are told to stand down and are asked to leave.

    Now Trump sends in NRA trained hunter-killer teams of math teachers to take down the active shooter.
    Teachers have experience and many amazing skills in dealing with out of control situations.

  6. #6

    Default

    I had a disturbing encounter with RCMP recently a couple hours east of the city. My wife was driving and we were just driving along following a semi-truck about 3 cars lengths behind. Then she said "Am I getting pulled over?" I turned to look and an RCMP SUV was behind us with the lights on. She pulled over and into a side-road. The two got out and very slowly walked up on each side of our car, and I could see they were looking in the back windows of our SUV and checking out the back seats. My wife rolled her window down. The cop on the passenger side stayed next to the back door. The other one walked up to talk to my wife but stayed behind the open window so my wife almost had to look back to talk to him. I was able to see through the back door's window that he had his hand ON his pistol grip with index finger out! This really set off alarms in my head since I have almost 2 decades in the army, and have had a lot of weapons training. This is NOT a stance you take unless you feel threatened! I could only assume the other guy on my side was also ready to pull his pistol out and I was biting my tongue to not say "WTF man, can you take your hand off your gun please???".

    My 5'2" little blond wife in her brand new soccer-mom SUV isn't exactly threatening, and they would have already run her plate and seen that she's never had a ticket before, or arrests! Neither of us have... I think paranoia is getting to some of these cops which is making them literally jump the gun... I definitely felt uncomfortable with this situation. It turned out fine in the end though. She said she was just following the truck, they took her cards back to their car to call it in, and then told her to keep to 100km/h, no ticket. But still, not good to see someone do that when approaching a vehicle because it immediately made me feel threatened.

  7. #7
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    382

    Default

    ^ Hmm, were you offended because the RCMP decided to assume you were a threat ? Well, RCMP/ police have no interest in how feel, nor should they. One guy stood back, out of site with his hand on his firearm, is that really upsetting you ????
    We live in a dangerous world now, more criminals, more people with mental issues out there now. There are so many if's that you literally have ZERO idea what was going on that day.
    There could have been reports of a stolen vehicle, crime in progress with a vehicle that is similar to your vehicle. What if you guys were being held hostage in your vehicle ?
    Sorry, but I don't care that you 'felt threatened'. Granted if the cop pointed the gun at you and told you to get out, then I would somewhat agree.
    Given that the cops/ RCMP have so much going on these days, they have every right to defend themselves, and members of the public. It's stories like this that I hope police never second guess themselves about when pulling somebody over.

    I would gladly take 'feel threatened' any day over A) dead cop, B) dead members of the public just because a cop second guessed him/herself because of a person's feelings.

    To top it all off, you did not even get a freaking ticket.... good grief... is this literally what society is coming down to. I just want to barf.

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    I had a disturbing encounter with RCMP recently a couple hours east of the city. My wife was driving and we were just driving along following a semi-truck about 3 cars lengths behind. Then she said "Am I getting pulled over?" I turned to look and an RCMP SUV was behind us with the lights on. She pulled over and into a side-road. The two got out and very slowly walked up on each side of our car, and I could see they were looking in the back windows of our SUV and checking out the back seats. My wife rolled her window down. The cop on the passenger side stayed next to the back door. The other one walked up to talk to my wife but stayed behind the open window so my wife almost had to look back to talk to him. I was able to see through the back door's window that he had his hand ON his pistol grip with index finger out! This really set off alarms in my head since I have almost 2 decades in the army, and have had a lot of weapons training. This is NOT a stance you take unless you feel threatened! I could only assume the other guy on my side was also ready to pull his pistol out and I was biting my tongue to not say "WTF man, can you take your hand off your gun please???".

    My 5'2" little blond wife in her brand new soccer-mom SUV isn't exactly threatening, and they would have already run her plate and seen that she's never had a ticket before, or arrests! Neither of us have... I think paranoia is getting to some of these cops which is making them literally jump the gun... I definitely felt uncomfortable with this situation. It turned out fine in the end though. She said she was just following the truck, they took her cards back to their car to call it in, and then told her to keep to 100km/h, no ticket. But still, not good to see someone do that when approaching a vehicle because it immediately made me feel threatened.
    Saw that same style of approach to a car pulled over on a highway in Arizona in the early 1980s. For years I assumed it was standard safety measures until more recently when I started to see much more casual approaches on police dash cam video posted on the news sites.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    ^ Hmm, were you offended because the RCMP decided to assume you were a threat ? Well, RCMP/ police have no interest in how feel, nor should they. One guy stood back, out of site with his hand on his firearm, is that really upsetting you ????
    We live in a dangerous world now, more criminals, more people with mental issues out there now. There are so many if's that you literally have ZERO idea what was going on that day.
    There could have been reports of a stolen vehicle, crime in progress with a vehicle that is similar to your vehicle. What if you guys were being held hostage in your vehicle ?
    Sorry, but I don't care that you 'felt threatened'. Granted if the cop pointed the gun at you and told you to get out, then I would somewhat agree.
    Given that the cops/ RCMP have so much going on these days, they have every right to defend themselves, and members of the public. It's stories like this that I hope police never second guess themselves about when pulling somebody over.

    I would gladly take 'feel threatened' any day over A) dead cop, B) dead members of the public just because a cop second guessed him/herself because of a person's feelings.

    To top it all off, you did not even get a freaking ticket.... good grief... is this literally what society is coming down to. I just want to barf.

    You obviously didn't read my post. It was the one standing right next to my wife on the driver's side that hand his hand on his pistol, on a clear day out in the open during daylight, not in a dark alley in a sketchy hood with a sketchy car. We got pulled over because she was speeding because she was following the truck which was speeding. It wasn't about "feelings", you sound like a real tool just by making that comment to be honest. I've been trained for these things and I've been in real combat situations. This guy was young and didn't have a clue. You obviously know nothing about weapons handling or posturing so take your ignorant uneducated comments and shove it.
    Last edited by alkeli; 06-04-2018 at 01:11 PM.

  10. #10
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    382

    Default

    ^
    Your whole post sure sounds like a 'poor me, I am offended, I feel 'threatened'. I don't really care if you been trained and/or in combat situations, you should totally understand where the cop was coming from.
    "Standing right next to your wife", but "stayed behind the open window so my wife almost had to look back to talk to him.

    Again, if your were pulled out of the vehicle at gun point, sure I can see that. But get real, you were speeding and basically got away without getting a ticket but yet the overall experience left you 'threatened'

    Maybe you can explain how you think the officer should have handled this ? Did you have the working knowledge of what the cops were doing/ investigating that day.

    PS - did you call the officer a "tool" after he let you off without a speeding ticket, do you did you say "Thank you sir" ?

  11. #11

    Default

    ^ They can approach cautiously all they want and stand where they want, there's no need to posture like you're about to pull out your pistol with your hand on it. He might as well have taken it out of the holster at that point. He obviously lacked training and confidence in his ability, and I wouldn't expect you to understand. So I guess if someone walked up to you and your wife and approached her with his fist up and cocked back like he was gonna clock her, you'd just stand there and find it to be no big deal? But he just wants to chat with her, he's just ready to punch her lights out just in case, no big deal right? Big man, you'd have a lucky wife there bud. You obviously don't understand and are just trying to play tough guy and I don't have time for your ignorance so troll elsewhere.

  12. #12
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    382

    Default

    ^Trolling.. I'm responding to your arguments.

    Quite frankly, I'd be more concerned about getting pulled over by somebody like you. Your responses and replies are escalating in nature and your ability to express yourself without being insulting.
    Again, so what, the cop had his hand resting on his gun. It was secured and the safety was on ( I am assuming that). I am also assuming the cop was not shouting at you ? S

    So the only issue you had is that the cop had his hand resting on his gun ?

    Do you know what kind of calls the officers were dealing with that day ?

  13. #13

    Default

    Maybe you should re-read your first post in this thread and see who's being insulting. Again, you're not reading, not surprised.. hand on the pistol grip, not resting, holding it, like was about to pull it out, with index finger extended, this is a "Ready to draw" state and puts off the wrong posturing. Again, I wouldn't expect you to understand just like I wouldn't expect you to understand something dangerous that a surgeon or pharmacist is doing, because you don't understand, so stop posting your nonsense trying to argue against something you have no clue about.

    Also, I don't care what kind of calls they were dealing with that day, it comes with the job and if you can't keep your cool and professionalism, then the job is not right for you.

  14. #14

    Default

    If both cops approach with both acting very cautiously - then that’s a huge signal that something is up. (And of course, that you can’t trust them to act calmly.) I’d also be tempted to stop them at some point in their questioning and ask them what’s with the aggressive approach. If they feel threatened then maybe I should too (in that area or road). Otherwise it’s just a short stop and then one is on their way.
    Last edited by KC; 07-04-2018 at 06:28 AM.

  15. #15

    Default

    Yeah, the cautious approach was fine, but then the other stuff is what I didn't like. Had he handed my wife a ticket, I would have mentioned it, but since they didn't, I kept my mouth shut so he didn't change his mind.

  16. #16

    Default

    Why did she pull onto a side road instead of the shoulder? The cop was young, her not just pulling over on the shoulder could have raised questions - particularly for a younger more inexperienced cop. Or perhaps there were reports of a similar vehicle being dangerous happening at the same time, causing the cops to be extra cautious.

    I agree, that the cop standing that far back and having his hand on the gun would be disconcerting, but all ended well as you and your wife obviously had nothing to hide. However, you only tell a portion of the story on what happened. You don't say if he stayed back the entire encounter - did he move up after talking to her? Did he make an awkward reach for her documents? Where did he stand when they came back from the car with her docs?

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by illin View Post
    Why did she pull onto a side road instead of the shoulder? The cop was young, her not just pulling over on the shoulder could have raised questions - particularly for a younger more inexperienced cop. Or perhaps there were reports of a similar vehicle being dangerous happening at the same time, causing the cops to be extra cautious.

    I agree, that the cop standing that far back and having his hand on the gun would be disconcerting, but all ended well as you and your wife obviously had nothing to hide. However, you only tell a portion of the story on what happened. You don't say if he stayed back the entire encounter - did he move up after talking to her? Did he make an awkward reach for her documents? Where did he stand when they came back from the car with her docs?
    Because there was no shoulder. If you've ever driven the highway towards Viking/Wainwright you'll know what I'm talking about. I told her to pull into the side road for the safety of the officers. It was an open area, no trees or obstructions, and we pulled in just enough to leave 2 car lengths behind us to the highway so they could pull in behind us. He did move up slightly to grab her papers but did not come right up beside the door, and when he came back to return them he was still standing in line with the door pillar, again with his partner on the opposite side. I could tell he was young and obviously inexperienced and not confident. I mean, the next step at that point is weapon drawn. I do understand that they need to be cautious nowadays, but the whole scenario just seemed a little off and over the top to me. I guarantee that if an off-duty police officer had been the one pulled over, he would have said something about his posturing.

  18. #18

    Default

    Officer praised for arrest of Toronto van attack suspect Alek Minassian | Watch News Videos Online

    https://globalnews.ca/video/4165784/...alek-minassian


    ‘Proud’ father praises police officer son who arrested Toronto van attack suspect | Globalnews.ca

    “WATCH ABOVE: David Lam, the father of Toronto Police Officer Ken Lam, who arrested the van attack suspect, says he's proud of his son, but he was just doing his job.”

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4165974/t...father-reacts/





    Moment Toronto attack suspect arrested - BBC News

    http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-...spect-arrested


    Toronto police officer single-handedly arrests van driver suspect – video | World news | The Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...-suspect-video
    Last edited by KC; 24-04-2018 at 09:24 PM.

  19. #19

    Default

    An American perspective;

    Toronto suspect wanted officer to shoot him. The officer refused.

    “The officer's remarkable restraint in the back-and-forth left some American law enforcement analysts shocked.

    The officer exercised patience ...”


    https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/23/us/to...off/index.html

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •