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Thread: Premier Notley's Fourth Year

  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    I like how Notley actually listens to the opposition from time to time. The PCs never listened to the opposition when in power.
    She has to listen, because they are making sense, and she is not ..LOL
    But that says nothing. Please explain.

    Where and how are they (who?) making sense and how is she not?
    Jason said what they need to do, and she's doing it. Tune in at 6.00 pm today, to hear Notley say, what the opposition has been saying for some time..
    Well, first, we don’t know what she’s going to say.

    Secondly wasn’t it the head of encana that first publicly suggested government interference in the market? (And that wasn’t a long time ago.) Then Kenny agreed. (And that wasn’t a long time ago.)

    Also, had the NDP proposed government interference in the market I suspect the opposite would have said that’s typical left wing socialist NDP style and so the opposition would have come out totally against it.


    Your post (H.L.) of yesterday December 1st, back to November 29 (see below) doesn’t seem like a long time to me. Who else in politics was suggesting production cuts before the UCP?

    Jason Kenney: It's time to mandate emergency cuts to oil production
    BY JASON KENNEY
    ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED: NOV 29, 2018
    Edmonton Journal
    Last edited by KC; 02-12-2018 at 09:14 AM.

  2. #302
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    So she's going to tell us she's not cutting production? Well tune in to hear EFF all then!

  3. #303

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    So she's going to tell us she's not cutting production? Well tune in to hear EFF all then!
    I can’t predict the future and that’s not my problem with what you are arguing without providing anything of substance beyond rather simplistic platitudes. There’s a good chance that she will propose production caps and thus penalize the winners to support the losers and to benefit the owners of the oil. (I have no problem with that as I’m not some left or right leaning ideological nutcase.) Unfortunately, on this issue - so far - you sound like a politician - words with no depth of thought. I know you can make better arguments when you want to.


    On the production cut issue; I don’t know why this is even an issue now, except for the possibility that we haven’t had the brightest people in charge for decades in Alberta. As representatives of the owners of the oil, as representatives of Alberta citizens, it seems that many past elected members failed to ensure that all new contracts for oil production and export have lacked a provincial override clause. This is an issue dating back decades to Lougheed’s days, so why is it an issue of asking for voluntary cuts as Kenny has done, or new legislation as Encana or Cenovus and Kenny have proposed?





    Alberta premier threatens to turn off oil taps in B.C. dispute | CTV News

    March 8, 2018

    Notley's announcement echoes action taken in 1980 by former Alberta premier Peter Lougheed in a showdown with the federal government.
    Lougheed announced phased cuts to oil flows amounting to 15 per cent over nine months as well as the cancellation of two large oilsands developments after Pierre Trudeau's Liberals brought in the national energy program with its price controls, new taxes, and revenue sharing.
    The two sides brokered a compromise after Lougheed turned off the taps.

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/albe...pute-1.3835009

    Cenovus cuts oilsands production due to price differential, pipeline constraints | Globalnews.ca

    March 22, 2018

    “We’re taking steps to respond to a critical shortage of export pipeline capacity in Western Canada that is beyond our control and is having a negative impact on our industry and the broader Canadian economy.”

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4099544/c...e-constraints/
    Last edited by KC; 02-12-2018 at 11:01 AM.

  4. #304
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    https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4929283

    If she wasn't going to do anything, she wouldn't be going to this great length to try and soften us up beforehand," he said, highlighting a letter Notley wrote about the struggling industry.


    We still don't have bright people in charge of AB,from Notley, to Iverson or Nenshi..a full bag of useless!
    Last edited by H.L.; 02-12-2018 at 12:07 PM.

  5. #305

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    Could nationalize/provincialize the pipelines and then alter the rules of access.

  6. #306

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4929283

    If she wasn't going to do anything, she wouldn't be going to this great length to try and soften us up beforehand," he said, highlighting a letter Notley wrote about the struggling industry.


    We still don't have bright people in charge of AB,from Notley, to Iverson or Nenshi..a full bag of useless!
    And Kenny?

  7. #307

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4929283

    If she wasn't going to do anything, she wouldn't be going to this great length to try and soften us up beforehand," he said, highlighting a letter Notley wrote about the struggling industry.


    We still don't have bright people in charge of AB,from Notley, to Iverson or Nenshi..a full bag of useless!

    So, what solution do you propose? Exactly?

  8. #308

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    Could temporarily remove all carbon taxes on the producers where product is set for export. (Or just say screw it all on carbon taxing and greenhouse gas reductions since the Feds aren’t doing anything to help.)
    Last edited by KC; 02-12-2018 at 02:25 PM.

  9. #309

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    Could institute various tax incentives and subsidies to oil related businesses and activity that are under stress now, and plan to cut jobs now.

    Could institute government-wide wage and salary cuts (and program cuts) and use the cost savings to support private sector jobs at risk of ending before other schemes or good fortune drives up oil prices. (Wage cuts could be done with a promise to restore wages once some reasonable level of economic stability returns to the province.)

  10. #310

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    Could further reduce taxes on business but since expenses are deducted from revenues, otherwise profitable businesses could already be spending more to reduce their profits and therefore reduce their taxes.

    Could play with depreciation and deductibility rules to create added incentives to spend more on refining etc.

    Could do any number of other things from subsidies to government owned upgrades to create jobs building refining capacity in Alberta.

    Could buy even more tanker cars and even build double tracking.

    Could buy a port (Port of Churchill)

    Could nationalize pipelines and change access rules...


    (Long term influences like lower taxes, ports, etc won’t do anything to help the current low oil price situation. The rail cars might help a bit by end of 2019 or so.)
    Last edited by KC; 02-12-2018 at 02:28 PM.

  11. #311

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    Interesting read from 2012:

    Oil sands oil going by Barge- MEG Energy

    http://connect2edmonton.com/showthre...rge-MEG-Energy

  12. #312
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    KC stay tuned! Why are you bothering to ask me any questions, and not really wanting answers. Get rid of the NDP, PDQ!����������

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4929283

    If she wasn't going to do anything, she wouldn't be going to this great length to try and soften us up beforehand," he said, highlighting a letter Notley wrote about the struggling industry.


    We still don't have bright people in charge of AB,from Notley, to Iverson or Nenshi..a full bag of useless!
    And Kenny?
    Our next premier!

  14. #314

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    Along with the Sons of Odin and the Proud Boys. Can't wait for teachers being ordered by law to out their LGBTQ students.

    Let the good times roll! Like it was 1950!

  15. #315

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4929283

    If she wasn't going to do anything, she wouldn't be going to this great length to try and soften us up beforehand," he said, highlighting a letter Notley wrote about the struggling industry.


    We still don't have bright people in charge of AB,from Notley, to Iverson or Nenshi..a full bag of useless!
    And Kenny?
    Our next premier!
    Yes probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    KC stay tuned! Why are you bothering to ask me any questions, and not really wanting answers. Get rid of the NDP, PDQ!����������
    Why do you say I don’t want answers?

    So... in terms of putting bright people in charge?

    And what the provincial government should be doing?

    Do you have any thoughts on this or just know what you don’t like?
    Last edited by KC; 02-12-2018 at 05:48 PM.

  16. #316

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Along with the Sons of Odin and the Proud Boys. Can't wait for teachers being ordered by law to out their LGBTQ students.

    Let the good times roll! Like it was 1950!
    Why do people keep trying to make lgbtq a top priority for the election. Guess where this falls for most voters... down at the bottom of their priorities.

  17. #317

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Along with the Sons of Odin and the Proud Boys. Can't wait for teachers being ordered by law to out their LGBTQ students.

    Let the good times roll! Like it was 1950!
    Why do people keep trying to make lgbtq a top priority for the election. Guess where this falls for most voters... down at the bottom of their priorities.
    Like abortion/anti-abortion, gay marriage rights, etc. not even on the radar of most citizens.

  18. #318

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Along with the Sons of Odin and the Proud Boys. Can't wait for teachers being ordered by law to out their LGBTQ students.

    Let the good times roll! Like it was 1950!
    Why do people keep trying to make lgbtq a top priority for the election. Guess where this falls for most voters... down at the bottom of their priorities.
    You know, you're right. Who cares if the UCP outs kids to their parents and allows them to be sent to "conversion" therapy? To hell with human rights! There's money to be made!

  19. #319

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Along with the Sons of Odin and the Proud Boys. Can't wait for teachers being ordered by law to out their LGBTQ students.

    Let the good times roll! Like it was 1950!
    Why do people keep trying to make lgbtq a top priority for the election. Guess where this falls for most voters... down at the bottom of their priorities.
    Like abortion/anti-abortion, gay marriage rights, etc. not even on the radar of most citizens.
    Abortion is settled law. Even the Conservatives admit that. Likewise, same sex marriage.

    Outing kids and conversion therapy are still very much on the radar of the UCP.

  20. #320

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Along with the Sons of Odin and the Proud Boys. Can't wait for teachers being ordered by law to out their LGBTQ students.

    Let the good times roll! Like it was 1950!
    Why do people keep trying to make lgbtq a top priority for the election. Guess where this falls for most voters... down at the bottom of their priorities.
    Like abortion/anti-abortion, gay marriage rights, etc. not even on the radar of most citizens.
    Abortion is settled law. Even the Conservatives admit that. Likewise, same sex marriage.

    Outing kids and conversion therapy are still very much on the radar of the UCP.
    It’s fascinating because none of these are new issues and the constitution has been in place for decades yet society has been so slow to settle the issues. Following this, what’s next?

  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Along with the Sons of Odin and the Proud Boys. Can't wait for teachers being ordered by law to out their LGBTQ students.

    Let the good times roll! Like it was 1950!
    Why do people keep trying to make lgbtq a top priority for the election. Guess where this falls for most voters... down at the bottom of their priorities.
    Its important we have LBBTQ2 rights, but most people have accepted this, so its not election issue

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Along with the Sons of Odin and the Proud Boys. Can't wait for teachers being ordered by law to out their LGBTQ students.

    Let the good times roll! Like it was 1950!
    Why do people keep trying to make lgbtq a top priority for the election. Guess where this falls for most voters... down at the bottom of their priorities.
    Like abortion/anti-abortion, gay marriage rights, etc. not even on the radar of most citizens.
    Abortion is settled law. Even the Conservatives admit that. Likewise, same sex marriage.

    Outing kids and conversion therapy are still very much on the radar of the UCP.
    It’s fascinating because none of these are new issues and the constitution has been in place for decades yet society has been so slow to settle the issues. Following this, what’s next?
    Parents,,no, some parents are angry they get no say. Egan the smirky boy, makes them

  23. #323

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Along with the Sons of Odin and the Proud Boys. Can't wait for teachers being ordered by law to out their LGBTQ students.

    Let the good times roll! Like it was 1950!
    Why do people keep trying to make lgbtq a top priority for the election. Guess where this falls for most voters... down at the bottom of their priorities.
    Its important we have LBBTQ2 rights, but most people have accepted this, so its not election issue
    Not when the UCP have said that teachers will not only be able to but will be required to tell the parents. Look at the percentage of homeless youth that are LGBTQ compared to the population at large. Ever wonder why? Ever wonder why these kids might not want to tell their parents?

    UCP members ignore MLA pleas to vote against gay-straight alliance motion
    May 06, 2018

    Despite pleas from three MLAs, a majority of United Conservative Party members passed a motion at their inaugural convention Sunday to support a parent's right to be informed when their child joins a gay-straight alliance.


    The motion passed with 57 per cent support even though members were being urged to vote against it by Calgary-Hays MLA Ric McIver, Rimbey-Rocky Mountain House-Sundre MLA Jason Nixon, and Chestermere-Rocky View MLA Leela Aheer.


    Jason Kenney's views on gay-straight alliances called 'extremist' by Alberta education minister
    "This is about outing gay kids," McIver said, as he was jeered by the crowd. "Don't be called the Lake of Fire party, I'm begging you.


    "This will really severely hurt our chances at winning. Don't do that to yourself."


    Brian Coldwell, a pastor, said the motion is about parental rights.


    "Governments and activists cannot have more authority over children than parents," he told the crowd. "It's not about anti-gay. It's about fundamental, God-given freedoms."

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...tion-1.4650727
    This was earlier this year. It's God's decision that children who may be afraid to tell their parents that they're gay be outed to them. And the UCP supported it by a decisive vote.

  24. #324

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    Yet my guess is that few parents really care about this issue in terms of it directly impacting them or their kids. It’s just an issue on principle to most voters as it’s not their own reality.

    As gwill211 said:

    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Along with the Sons of Odin and the Proud Boys. Can't wait for teachers being ordered by law to out their LGBTQ students.

    Let the good times roll! Like it was 1950!
    Why do people keep trying to make lgbtq a top priority for the election. Guess where this falls for most voters... down at the bottom of their priorities.
    Last edited by KC; 02-12-2018 at 09:12 PM.

  25. #325

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    OK, it's just a few kids that will for forced into "conversion therapy" or thrown out to love on the streets. I guess that's just the price we should expect to pay then. Sucks to be them though.

    But look on the bright side, if they commit suicide or die of an overdose, problem solved, right?

    Special report on LGBTQ youth launched by Alberta child and youth advocate

    As much as 40 per cent of the homeless youth population identify as LGBTQ2S. Studies have found they also face a higher risk of suicide and substance abuse than heterosexual peers.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/3192255/s...outh-advocate/

  26. #326

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    OK, it's just a few kids that will for forced into "conversion therapy" or thrown out to love on the streets. I guess that's just the price we should expect to pay then. Sucks to be them though.

    But look on the bright side, if they commit suicide or die of an overdose, problem solved, right?

    Special report on LGBTQ youth launched by Alberta child and youth advocate

    As much as 40 per cent of the homeless youth population identify as LGBTQ2S. Studies have found they also face a higher risk of suicide and substance abuse than heterosexual peers.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/3192255/s...outh-advocate/
    There’s a a long list of very critical issues out there. Homelessness, abuse, domestic violence, cancer and other medical treatments and drugs that are for one reason or other inaccessible (costs, budget priorities, no PACs). Special needs assessment and assistance, mental health incl. addictions issues, etc. All could and should receive considerably more attention in terms of government policy, human rights exposure than they get now. I’m not one to judge which is more or less important in any terms let alone reason to attack one or another political party.

    The LGBTQ2S issue seems to be the one that is receiving a lot of political and media attention over and above many other issues. Maybe fentynal deaths etc don’t matter as much. I suspect though that people with political agendas prefer to focus on politically differentiating issues rather than any number of the many other issues that are being generally of more broadly ignored by all political parties.
    Last edited by KC; 02-12-2018 at 10:54 PM.

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Yet my guess is that few parents really care about this issue in terms of it directly impacting them or their kids. It’s just an issue on principle to most voters as it’s not their own reality.

    As gwill211 said:

    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Along with the Sons of Odin and the Proud Boys. Can't wait for teachers being ordered by law to out their LGBTQ students.

    Let the good times roll! Like it was 1950!
    Why do people keep trying to make lgbtq a top priority for the election. Guess where this falls for most voters... down at the bottom of their priorities.
    my guess is it’s “more of their own reality” than a lot of people think - or a lot of people are prepared to acknowledge - and that’s a big part of the problem.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  28. #328

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    OK, it's just a few kids that will for forced into "conversion therapy" or thrown out to love on the streets. I guess that's just the price we should expect to pay then. Sucks to be them though.

    But look on the bright side, if they commit suicide or die of an overdose, problem solved, right?

    Special report on LGBTQ youth launched by Alberta child and youth advocate

    As much as 40 per cent of the homeless youth population identify as LGBTQ2S. Studies have found they also face a higher risk of suicide and substance abuse than heterosexual peers.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/3192255/s...outh-advocate/
    There’s a a long list of very critical issues out there. Homelessness, abuse, domestic violence, cancer and other medical treatments and drugs that are for one reason or other inaccessible (costs, budget priorities, no PACs). Special needs assessment and assistance, mental health incl. addictions issues, etc. All could and should receive considerably more attention in terms of government policy, human rights exposure than they get now. I’m not one to judge which is more or less important in any terms let alone reason to attack one or another political party.

    The LGBTQ2S issue seems to be the one that is receiving a lot of political and media attention over and above many other issues. Maybe fentynal deaths etc don’t matter as much. I suspect though that people with political agendas prefer to focus on politically differentiating issues rather than any number of the many other issues that are being generally of more broadly ignored by all political parties.
    But the UCP is deliberately stating that they are perfectly OK with outing LGBT youth. I don't see any of the other parties standing up and saying "We should do what we can to ensure harm will come to people that abuse fentanyl" or "We're going to encourage people in abusive relationships to stay in them".

    It's a lack of empathy, the inability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, even for a moment.

    Yes, there are many issues that require attention. That doesn't make it OK to deliberately put at risk youth in harms way.

    Saying "I'm not one to judge" is simply passing the buck. When we choose who to cast our vote for, we're making a judgement call. Who eill do the most good? Who will do the least harm?

  29. #329

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    To everyone that thinks that LGTBQ issues should not be discussed in the upcoming election.

    Couple claims they were driven out of workplace for being 'too gay'

    A lesbian couple says they were driven out of their jobs as paramedics and firefighters in a small Alberta town for being "too gay."


    Sheri and Alyssa Monk say they were discriminated against and expected to follow different rules than their heterosexual colleagues, saying they were told not to talk about their personal lives at work and that the word "wife" was off limits.


    The women have filed a complaint with Alberta's Human Rights Commission about how they were treated while working in the emergency services detachment in Pincher Creek, a town of 3,700 people about two hours south of Calgary.

    ---

    According to a copy of their human rights complaint provided to Go Public by the couple, one co-worker objected, in part, to the pair's "public displays of affection," to their use of the word "babe" with one another, to conversations "suggestive" of their sex life, and to another colleague's birthday card signed, "your favourite lesbians."


    Another coworker raised concerns about comments including, "how much they love each other and how wonderful the other person is."


    Former coworker James Raffan says the Monks behaved no different than any other couple and he has "no doubt" they were singled out because they're gay.


    James Raffan, who worked with the Monks in Pincher Creek, says colleagues regularly talked about their personal lives at work. (Rosa Marchitelli/CBC )
    "There was — and presumably still is — a very strong conservative bent within the department itself … It's a small southern Alberta town. It's to be expected," he told Go Public.


    He says staff often talked about their personal lives, religion, politics and sex and it wasn't an issue. Nor was it a problem when his wife would visit him at work and they would talk about their personal lives while making breakfast together.


    What he did hear, he says, were complaints about the Monks.


    "Their being a lesbian couple became the centre of conversation more often ... them being in the workplace and other people's religious sentiments being offended by their presence became more of a source of conflict."

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ices-1.4924224

  30. #330

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    To everyone that thinks that LGTBQ issues should not be discussed in the upcoming election.

    Couple claims they were driven out of workplace for being 'too gay'

    A lesbian couple says they were driven out of their jobs as paramedics and firefighters in a small Alberta town for being "too gay."


    Sheri and Alyssa Monk say they were discriminated against and expected to follow different rules than their heterosexual colleagues, saying they were told not to talk about their personal lives at work and that the word "wife" was off limits.


    The women have filed a complaint with Alberta's Human Rights Commission about how they were treated while working in the emergency services detachment in Pincher Creek, a town of 3,700 people about two hours south of Calgary.

    ---

    According to a copy of their human rights complaint provided to Go Public by the couple, one co-worker objected, in part, to the pair's "public displays of affection," to their use of the word "babe" with one another, to conversations "suggestive" of their sex life, and to another colleague's birthday card signed, "your favourite lesbians."


    Another coworker raised concerns about comments including, "how much they love each other and how wonderful the other person is."


    Former coworker James Raffan says the Monks behaved no different than any other couple and he has "no doubt" they were singled out because they're gay.


    James Raffan, who worked with the Monks in Pincher Creek, says colleagues regularly talked about their personal lives at work. (Rosa Marchitelli/CBC )
    "There was — and presumably still is — a very strong conservative bent within the department itself … It's a small southern Alberta town. It's to be expected," he told Go Public.


    He says staff often talked about their personal lives, religion, politics and sex and it wasn't an issue. Nor was it a problem when his wife would visit him at work and they would talk about their personal lives while making breakfast together.


    What he did hear, he says, were complaints about the Monks.


    "Their being a lesbian couple became the centre of conversation more often ... them being in the workplace and other people's religious sentiments being offended by their presence became more of a source of conflict."

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ices-1.4924224
    It’s great such issues are discussed.


    Here’s another one. People are needlessly dying:

    Medical students calling on government to take action on Alberta’s low rate of organ donors | The Star

    It’s why a group of medical students from the University of Calgary and University of Alberta are meeting with MLAs on Monday to come up with new strategies to educate the public and increase donor rates in Alberta.
    ...

    According to the Canadian Health Institute, there were 640 Albertans who were waiting for an organ transplant in 2017. Of those, 96 were either withdrawn from the waitlist or died waiting for an organ transplant.

    https://www.thestar.com/edmonton/201...an-donors.html


    This is where more whatsboutism is needed in order to bring more important issues up for discussion during elections.

    Again though, donor registry and transplant needs just aren’t high on most people’s lists of priorities.
    Last edited by KC; 03-12-2018 at 02:49 PM.

  31. #331

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    Agreed, that is also an important issue. But supporting one does not mean you cannot also support the other.

  32. #332

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Agreed, that is also an important issue. But supporting one does not mean you cannot also support the other.
    However, isn’t it interesting that those with political agendas don’t seem to care about all these other issues and so tend to only bring up the issues where they can find negative materials in attempts to vilify the party(s) they don’t like.

  33. #333

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    Isn't it interesting that those who say that it's not for them to judge are the first to judge?

    You want me to make a list with full comments about all the issues that concern me?

  34. #334

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Isn't it interesting that those who say that it's not for them to judge are the first to judge?

    You want me to make a list with full comments about all the issues that concern me?
    And that’s why I said: “I’m not one to judge which is more or less important in any terms let alone reason to attack one or another political party. ”. However I can sense when those piling on an issue are doing so because the issue can be used as a weapon against their political opponents.

  35. #335

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    Oh yeah, the poor UCP are being picked on by people that are standing up against their plan to out children to their parents. Won't someone PLEASE think of the politicians!

  36. #336

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    kkkoriz - no ones saying not to discuss LGBTQ issues but when your blinders are on and your pursuing one issue like it's all that matters then that party will get ignored by more and more voters.

    This has been the main focus for the ndp for the last while and to a fault. I know if I had heard more from the ndp on the economy and standing up for our oil and gas sector I wouldnt have written them off like I have by now.

    When shannon Phillip's was asked on 630ched recently about pipelines she would deflect any answer by saying Kenny's a racist and a bigot who hates gay kids.

    Instead of addressing albertans concerns on pipelines our ministers want to pretend like there were no problems. Fast forward a couple months and they finally seem to be at least doing something...

  37. #337

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    The problem isn't pipelines. It's the fact that the oil producers have overbuilt their capacity to ship out cheap bitumen. The companies that have upgraders and refineries are opposed to the production cuts because they're in a much better position.

    We should have never started shipping bitumen out of the province. We make the lowest royalties. We send it to places that refine it and then make more money than we do. We send them jobs. And we want pipelines to ship the bitumen that people don't want crossing their land because it's very difficult to clean up, much more so if it's in water.

    Energy East would have succeeded if it was shipping a product that the refineries along the route could have used without upgrading.

    And all Keystone XL and the others will do is guarantee that no more upgraders will be built here.

    We're selling the lowest possible grade of product and making as little money off of it as possible. The only way we could make less is if we loaded train cars with the oil sand and shipped that instead.

    And none of that alters the fact that the UCP is attracting people that can charitably be called bigots and that Kenny calls "members of a sports team".

  38. #338

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    Do you think it's been appropriate for our govt to dodge any and all accountability when asked pretty simple questions on Alberta's economy or pipeline???

    I cant help but laugh when I hear the ndp ministers respond to questions they dont want to answer by painting Kenney and every ucp supporter as racist bigots. How about we answer the questions every albertan is asking??? Oh I know.. that's too much to ask for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Do you think it's been appropriate for our govt to dodge any and all accountability when asked pretty simple questions on Alberta's economy or pipeline???

    I cant help but laugh when I hear the ndp ministers respond to questions they dont want to answer by painting Kenney and every ucp supporter as racist bigots. How about we answer the questions every albertan is asking??? Oh I know.. that's too much to ask for.
    The NDP are sounding a little desperate. They shouldn't of trusted JT as much as they did.
    Why don't they lease rail cars, rather than buy them? It would be far faster than waiting for a year!

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    I think CP and CN are already getting the cars as fast as they can be built. There isn’t a big field full of them somewhere waiting for auction. I think that’s the problem. It’s too bad they couldn’t build them here, say nisku, it would be a lot of jobs for welders, mechanics and such. I guess that would be diversifying though, something Alberta is a little afraid of. If I had the means I would think this would be a good business to get into.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 04-12-2018 at 05:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I think CP and CN are already getting the cars as fast as they can be built. There isn’t a big field full of them somewhere waiting for auction. I think that’s the problem. It’s too bad they couldn’t build them here, say nisku, it would be a lot of jobs for welders, mechanics and such. I guess that would be diversifying though, something Alberta is a little afraid of. If I had the means I would think this would be a good business to get into.

    But if we leased cars, we could move now, not in one year.

  42. #342

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    Have you put any effort into figuring out whether or not there are rail cars available for lease and the cost given the huge demand?

  43. #343

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I think CP and CN are already getting the cars as fast as they can be built. There isn’t a big field full of them somewhere waiting for auction. I think that’s the problem. It’s too bad they couldn’t build them here, say nisku, it would be a lot of jobs for welders, mechanics and such. I guess that would be diversifying though, something Alberta is a little afraid of. If I had the means I would think this would be a good business to get into.
    Excellent point!!!

    Maybe we should be attracting a diversifying business to Alberta through this purchase. Make it part of the deal. It’s not like the source of demand for tankers in the private sector is emanating from a lot of other Canadian locations. Time to consolidate the production of tankers where the bulk of the product is produced. (add in fertilizer, petrochem...)


    We can at least assemble them here. Bring in the parts via rail.
    Last edited by KC; 04-12-2018 at 10:22 AM.

  44. #344

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Do you think it's been appropriate for our govt to dodge any and all accountability when asked pretty simple questions on Alberta's economy or pipeline???

    I cant help but laugh when I hear the ndp ministers respond to questions they dont want to answer by painting Kenney and every ucp supporter as racist bigots. How about we answer the questions every albertan is asking??? Oh I know.. that's too much to ask for.
    The NDP are sounding a little desperate. They shouldn't of trusted JT as much as they did.
    Why don't they lease rail cars, rather than buy them? It would be far faster than waiting for a year!
    They are desperate. However from the start they knew that odds were that they’d be a one term party. It’s not a desperation out of a fear of being booted from office. As the oil price declines, the reality of our economic model must be trashing their ideological dreams of permanently-and-systematically-caring-for-everyone-especially-the-vulnerable.

    The reality they are likely facing is that we all live lives hugely subsidized by liquidating our assets, basically living in a mansion selling the family jewels for whatever we can get to pay the bills*, I think it’s now more of a desperation that they will leave office with their personal reputational legacy in tatters. (High oil prices, increasing volume demands haven’t swept in to save their ashes as high prices have bailed out the PC many times throughout the decades.)
    Last edited by KC; 04-12-2018 at 10:36 AM.

  45. #345

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I think CP and CN are already getting the cars as fast as they can be built. There isn’t a big field full of them somewhere waiting for auction. I think that’s the problem. It’s too bad they couldn’t build them here, say nisku, it would be a lot of jobs for welders, mechanics and such. I guess that would be diversifying though, something Alberta is a little afraid of. If I had the means I would think this would be a good business to get into.

    But if we leased cars, we could move now, not in one year.
    Who knows. I sure don’t. What’s involved with port access, leasing more ship tankers or obtaining space on ship tankers?

    Pacific Ocean coastal environmental permits. Refinery access at the destination? Adding to the supply chain probably has all kinds of private and public sector obstacles. However, low prices or large buyer leverage, likely speeds clearances on the private side. Graft, bribes, kickbacks probably help greatly on both private and public sector obstacles.
    Last edited by KC; 04-12-2018 at 10:59 AM.

  46. #346

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I think CP and CN are already getting the cars as fast as they can be built. There isn’t a big field full of them somewhere waiting for auction. I think that’s the problem. It’s too bad they couldn’t build them here, say nisku, it would be a lot of jobs for welders, mechanics and such. I guess that would be diversifying though, something Alberta is a little afraid of. If I had the means I would think this would be a good business to get into.
    Excellent point!!!

    Maybe we should be attracting a diversifying business to Alberta through this purchase. Make it part of the deal. It’s not like the source of demand for tankers in the private sector is emanating from a lot of other Canadian locations. Time to consolidate the production of tankers where the bulk of the product is produced. (add in fertilizer, petrochem...)


    We can at least assemble them here. Bring in the parts via rail.
    It's not really much of a diversification since it's still tied closely to the oil business.

  47. #347

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I think CP and CN are already getting the cars as fast as they can be built. There isn’t a big field full of them somewhere waiting for auction. I think that’s the problem. It’s too bad they couldn’t build them here, say nisku, it would be a lot of jobs for welders, mechanics and such. I guess that would be diversifying though, something Alberta is a little afraid of. If I had the means I would think this would be a good business to get into.
    Excellent point!!!

    Maybe we should be attracting a diversifying business to Alberta through this purchase. Make it part of the deal. It’s not like the source of demand for tankers in the private sector is emanating from a lot of other Canadian locations. Time to consolidate the production of tankers where the bulk of the product is produced. (add in fertilizer, petrochem...)


    We can at least assemble them here. Bring in the parts via rail.
    It's not really much of a diversification since it's still tied closely to the oil business.
    Actually it is. Because we are morons, excessively dependent as a province on liquidating our assets to pay for; our lifestyles, our deficits, our debts and our ever growing population, we rarely cut production* to pull supply from the market until more favourable prices return.

    Instead as margins fall, royalties fall, we try to develop and sell even more to keep the cash coming in to pay for our lifestyle and any debt incurred to maintain our lifestyle. Pipelines aren’t all that incremental and must side with estimates of higher and more certain capacity before investment will flow. (Or poaching of other higher cost transport). Nowadays even more pipeline hurdles make investment very uncertain.

    Rail tankers can survive higher volume needs during price and local economic downturns as we try to pump more to pay the bills. They can also serve to meet incremental growth needs when pipeline investors perceive uncertainty, which normally would have been as the economy comes out of a recession and the future of high oil prices is still perceived as uncertain.


    * only happens when it’s essentially too late to avoid massive losses.


    Moreover as an aside: we should build freight cars too. When oil prices are low, disposable income skyrockets and the world buys more crap like TVs, cars, etc. Fertilizer gets cheaper too. We could switch to freight cars at the depth of a recession / low oil prices when no one will dare invest in oilsands that would be the point of maximum consumer optimism and crap buying and shipping.
    Last edited by KC; 04-12-2018 at 11:29 AM.

  48. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I think CP and CN are already getting the cars as fast as they can be built. There isn’t a big field full of them somewhere waiting for auction. I think that’s the problem. It’s too bad they couldn’t build them here, say nisku, it would be a lot of jobs for welders, mechanics and such. I guess that would be diversifying though, something Alberta is a little afraid of. If I had the means I would think this would be a good business to get into.

    But if we leased cars, we could move now, not in one year.
    Who knows. I sure don’t. What’s involved with port access, leasing more ship tankers or obtaining space on ship tankers?

    Pacific Ocean coastal environmental permits. Refinery access at the destination? Adding to the supply chain probably has all kinds of private and public sector obstacles. However, low prices or large buyer leverage, likely speeds clearances on the private side. Graft, bribes, kickbacks probably help greatly on both private and public sector obstacles.
    The tanker traffic amounts to only one extra tanker a day, along with God knows how many cruise ships into the port at BC..wouldn't Notley gave sussed all that out, before mentioning oil by rail?

  49. #349

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    Ignorance of the facts is bliss for CONS.

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    Tanker traffic into Vancouver usually has about 30-50 vessels/year as of 2017. If and when the TM pipeline gets built there could be up to 400 tankers per year comming into the Vancouver port. Here's a brief report on petroleum products and tanker safety:

    https://www.portvancouver.com/about-...tanker-safety/
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  51. #351

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    But that tenfold increase in tanker traffic will come with zero risk to the environment, wildlife, etc. Right? No spills. No whale collisions. No disruption because of increased noise. Right?

  52. #352

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    Here is the truth about tanker traffic in Canada:

    https://clearseas.org/en/tankers/

  53. #353

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    Ignorance is also bliss for the anti-pipeline people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    But that tenfold increase in tanker traffic will come with zero risk to the environment, wildlife, etc. Right? No spills. No whale collisions. No disruption because of increased noise. Right?
    Just by being alive could present a risk to the environment, wildlife etc. Right?

    Last and only oil spill in Vancouver was in English bay ~ 2015. Although its rare there are more pleasure boat wale collisions then tanker collisions. If TMP goes through it will bring in about 30 oil tankers/month into Burrard inlet. Noise from tankers can be mitigated via regulation. Right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    But that tenfold increase in tanker traffic will come with zero risk to the environment, wildlife, etc. Right? No spills. No whale collisions. No disruption because of increased noise. Right?
    Just by being alive could present a risk to the environment, wildlife etc. Right?

    Last and only oil spill in Vancouver was in English bay ~ 2015. Although its rare there are more pleasure boat wale collisions then tanker collisions. If TMP goes through it will bring in about 30 oil tankers/month into Burrard inlet. Noise from tankers can be mitigated via regulation. Right?
    last and only? i don't think so... just from memory there was the marathasa (a grain carrier) which leaked 2700 liters of bunker fuel in 2015; a fuel barge last February that leaked several hundred liters of diesel fuel; the recent leak of 100 liters at the kinder morgan terminal (not from a tanker); 189,000 litres of bunker fuel leaked following a collision between two freighters in 1973; another 3,400 liters of bunker fuel leaked from centennial pier later in 1973... the beaches at the time were quite a bit different at the time:

    Columnist and recent co-founder of Greenpeace, Bob Hunter, had little sympathy for Vancouver residents and “the rich folks living along the north shore of English Bay” who decried the fouling of local beaches. He drew attention to the fact that sewage and industrial chemicals had already so polluted the waters of English Bay and the rest of Burrard Inlet that swimming was inadvisable. “And if there is any city that deserves to have oil washing at the foot of its towers,” wrote Hunter, “it has to be Vancouver — the city which poisoned its own sheltering bay so badly it really doesn’t matter that another layer of scum has been added on top.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    But that tenfold increase in tanker traffic will come with zero risk to the environment, wildlife, etc. Right? No spills. No whale collisions. No disruption because of increased noise. Right?
    Just by being alive could present a risk to the environment, wildlife etc. Right?

    Last and only oil spill in Vancouver was in English bay ~ 2015. Although its rare there are more pleasure boat wale collisions then tanker collisions. If TMP goes through it will bring in about 30 oil tankers/month into Burrard inlet. Noise from tankers can be mitigated via regulation. Right?
    last and only? i don't think so... just from memory there was the marathasa (a grain carrier) which leaked 2700 liters of bunker fuel in 2015; a fuel barge last February that leaked several hundred liters of diesel fuel; the recent leak of 100 liters at the kinder morgan terminal (not from a tanker); 189,000 litres of bunker fuel leaked following a collision between two freighters in 1973; another 3,400 liters of bunker fuel leaked from centennial pier later in 1973... the beaches at the time were quite a bit different at the time:

    Columnist and recent co-founder of Greenpeace, Bob Hunter, had little sympathy for Vancouver residents and “the rich folks living along the north shore of English Bay” who decried the fouling of local beaches. He drew attention to the fact that sewage and industrial chemicals had already so polluted the waters of English Bay and the rest of Burrard Inlet that swimming was inadvisable. “And if there is any city that deserves to have oil washing at the foot of its towers,” wrote Hunter, “it has to be Vancouver — the city which poisoned its own sheltering bay so badly it really doesn’t matter that another layer of scum has been added on top.”

    But nothing serious on the West coast since Exxon. Evidence of that spill is still noticeable. I'd opine to say the track record up to now is pretty good even from the 1973 incident.
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  57. #357

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    Did anyone else get text-spammed by "Bill from the NDP Caucus" about Rachel standing up to JT?
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Did anyone else get text-spammed by "Bill from the NDP Caucus" about Rachel standing up to JT?
    No, but what a great idea!

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    But that tenfold increase in tanker traffic will come with zero risk to the environment, wildlife, etc. Right? No spills. No whale collisions. No disruption because of increased noise. Right?
    Just by being alive could present a risk to the environment, wildlife etc. Right?

    Last and only oil spill in Vancouver was in English bay ~ 2015. Although its rare there are more pleasure boat wale collisions then tanker collisions. If TMP goes through it will bring in about 30 oil tankers/month into Burrard inlet. Noise from tankers can be mitigated via regulation. Right?
    last and only? i don't think so... just from memory there was the marathasa (a grain carrier) which leaked 2700 liters of bunker fuel in 2015; a fuel barge last February that leaked several hundred liters of diesel fuel; the recent leak of 100 liters at the kinder morgan terminal (not from a tanker); 189,000 litres of bunker fuel leaked following a collision between two freighters in 1973; another 3,400 liters of bunker fuel leaked from centennial pier later in 1973... the beaches at the time were quite a bit different at the time:

    Columnist and recent co-founder of Greenpeace, Bob Hunter, had little sympathy for Vancouver residents and “the rich folks living along the north shore of English Bay” who decried the fouling of local beaches. He drew attention to the fact that sewage and industrial chemicals had already so polluted the waters of English Bay and the rest of Burrard Inlet that swimming was inadvisable. “And if there is any city that deserves to have oil washing at the foot of its towers,” wrote Hunter, “it has to be Vancouver — the city which poisoned its own sheltering bay so badly it really doesn’t matter that another layer of scum has been added on top.”

    But nothing serious on the West coast since Exxon. Evidence of that spill is still noticeable. I'd opine to say the track record up to now is pretty good even from the 1973 incident.
    no disagreement from me on your conclusion. the record isn't perfect but, as you noted, it is pretty good overall - a reflection of the impact better enforcement and higher standards can have on the end result over time. furthermore, from a practical perspective, there may well be less risk from the tankers using the kinder morgan terminal which are held to considerably higher standards and scrutiny than other shipping noting that none of the incidents mentioned involved tankers (although one did involve a fuel barge providing service that could arguably have been better provided by a local pipeline,
    (the maranantha was a new grain carrier and the 1973 incidents were "typical" freighters
    ).
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  60. #360

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    Besides, if there is a spill, it's no sweat off our nose. It'll be BC's problem.


    Years after oil spills, money still owed to Vancouver, aquarium and Heiltsuk Nation

    Peter Ross, a scientist with the Vancouver Aquarium, said roughly $180,000 was spent on environmental testing when little information was being released immediately after the fuel spill.


    The aquarium draws water from English Bay, Ross said, and staff were concerned that the fuel posed a risk to its wildlife.


    "We basically acknowledged it was going to be expensive but it was really an exceptional circumstance where we couldn't really worry about the money at that point, we had to know whether our collection was at risk," he said.


    Ross said the tests found fuel reached beaches in Porty Moody, roughly 12 kilometres away, and mussels collected in English Bay had taken up oil.


    Ross said the aquarium was negotiating compensation with the owners of the Marathassa and had been offered about 20 cents for every dollar spent, which he called unacceptable.



    Oil found on Second Beach in Vancouver in 2015 by Dr. Peter Ross from Vancouver Aquarium. (Vancouver Aquarium)

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...oast-1.4629073



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    it's already bc's problem isn't it?

    or it's already Canada's problem.

    either way, even without expanding kinder morgan, that problem or the risk of that problem already exists.

    what's in that photograph is a result of canada's exporting grain, not oil.

    unless you are proposing that we stop exporting grain or any other raw or manufactured commodity and that we stop importing any raw or manufactured commodity, we need to be better prepared to respond than bc/we have been.
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    Its a quick read in case you missed it:

    https://www.portvancouver.com/about-...tanker-safety/
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  63. #363

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    it's already bc's problem isn't it?

    or it's already Canada's problem.

    either way, even without expanding kinder morgan, that problem or the risk of that problem already exists.

    what's in that photograph is a result of canada's exporting grain, not oil.

    unless you are proposing that we stop exporting grain or any other raw or manufactured commodity and that we stop importing any raw or manufactured commodity, we need to be better prepared to respond than bc/we have been.
    Because expanding the number of tankers tenfold will obviously make the problem even less likely to happen.

    Unless the oil also fouls Alberta beaches, it's pretty much BC's problem. They're the ones what will be finding oil on the beaches for years or decades to come. BC fisheries will be the ones dealing with dead fish stocks and dead zones on the sea bottom.

    And the photograph is not grain, but oil from the ship that was carrying it. How often do you hear of grain fouling beaches?

    They're still finding oil from the Exxon Valdez in Price William Sound. They're still finding oil washing ashore and on the sea bottom from Deepwater Horizon.

    But that's their problem. Paraphrasing Dune "The bitumen must flow!"

  64. #364

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    Isn’t it a federal problem? If so, guess who’s taxes will go to deal with the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    it's already bc's problem isn't it?

    or it's already Canada's problem.

    either way, even without expanding kinder morgan, that problem or the risk of that problem already exists.

    what's in that photograph is a result of canada's exporting grain, not oil.

    unless you are proposing that we stop exporting grain or any other raw or manufactured commodity and that we stop importing any raw or manufactured commodity, we need to be better prepared to respond than bc/we have been.
    Because expanding the number of tankers tenfold will obviously make the problem even less likely to happen.

    Unless the oil also fouls Alberta beaches, it's pretty much BC's problem. They're the ones what will be finding oil on the beaches for years or decades to come. BC fisheries will be the ones dealing with dead fish stocks and dead zones on the sea bottom.

    And the photograph is not grain, but oil from the ship that was carrying it. How often do you hear of grain fouling beaches?

    They're still finding oil from the Exxon Valdez in Price William Sound. They're still finding oil washing ashore and on the sea bottom from Deepwater Horizon.

    But that's their problem. Paraphrasing Dune "The bitumen must flow!"
    What you are asking is to stop all shipping, stop the ferries, stop everything that isn't powered by sail.

  66. #366

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    No, but I am saying that increasing taker traffic tenfold isn't going to make a spill less likely.

    But, I suppose if it's inevitable we should just accept it. Spill? Who cares? There's money to be made. As a matter of fact, let's lessen or even eliminate the regulations because they just eat up time and money.

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    Tankers can be guided out of port by tugboat.

    Really good story about tugs and tankers specific to exiting Burrard inlet and English bay to open sea:

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle35070386/
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  68. #368

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    No, but I am saying that increasing taker traffic tenfold isn't going to make a spill less likely.

    But, I suppose if it's inevitable we should just accept it. Spill? Who cares? There's money to be made. As a matter of fact, let's lessen or even eliminate the regulations because they just eat up time and money.
    People want population growth so something has to support it. BC will be finding all kinds of excuses to cut more, mine more in order to support its own growing population. Taking in capital and building ever more glass towers helps, but I’m not sure what comes out if it longer term.

    An army of skilled tower builders, real estate agents and lawyers to forever power the economy along?
    Last edited by KC; 05-12-2018 at 01:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    No, but I am saying that increasing taker traffic tenfold isn't going to make a spill less likely.

    But, I suppose if it's inevitable we should just accept it. Spill? Who cares? There's money to be made. As a matter of fact, let's lessen or even eliminate the regulations because they just eat up time and money.
    People want population growth so something has to support it. BC will be finding all kinds of excuses to cut more, mine more in order to support its own growing population. Taking in capital and building ever more glass towers helps, but I’m not sure what comes out if it longer term.

    An army of skilled tower builders, real estate agents and lawyers to forever power the economy along?
    it’s not only that those towers are glass... much of the glass comes from china, along with aluminum and steel and light fixtures. and the boilers and chillers come from korea while the elevators come from japan and the fabrics from indonesia. the cars in the parkade come from just about everywhere in the world except canada. and it all arrives by freighter. as do most of the clothes those builders and agents and lawyers wear along with their computers and cell phones and television sets and pvr’s... but that’s not true only in vancouver. it’s pretty true here as well.
    Last edited by kcantor; 05-12-2018 at 08:26 AM.
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  70. #370

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    No, but I am saying that increasing taker traffic tenfold isn't going to make a spill less likely.

    But, I suppose if it's inevitable we should just accept it. Spill? Who cares? There's money to be made. As a matter of fact, let's lessen or even eliminate the regulations because they just eat up time and money.
    People want population growth so something has to support it. BC will be finding all kinds of excuses to cut more, mine more in order to support its own growing population. Taking in capital and building ever more glass towers helps, but I’m not sure what comes out if it longer term.

    An army of skilled tower builders, real estate agents and lawyers to forever power the economy along?
    it’s not only that those towers are glass... much of the glass comes from china, along with aluminum and steel and light fixtures. and the boilers and chillers come from korea while the elevators come from japan and the fabrics from indonesia. the cars in the parkade come from just about everywhere in the world except canada. and it all arrives by freighter. as do most of the clothes those builders and agents and lawyers wear along with their computers and cell phones and television sets and pvr’s... but that’s not true only in vancouver. it’s pretty true here as well.
    And aren’t there issues with the glass walled condos? Short lifespan of glass and obviously almost as low an energy efficiency as is possible. How many are still using just double pane?


    Toronto's Glass Condos Face Short Lifespan

    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...Short-Lifespan


    Why window walls are favoured for condos - REMI Network
    https://www.reminetwork.com/articles...ations-report/




    Degrading condo windows expected to trigger major wave of replacements | The Star
    Feb 19, 2014

    “The cost of replacing the glass walls could be “five to 10 times” what it cost to replace windows in a home because the windows have to be stronger and they are harder to reach, Straube said.

    As well, the glass walls result in higher energy costs.

    “Technology may offer slick solutions and reduce this cost,” said Straube.

    “We just have little experience.” ...”

    https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...lacements.html

    TreeHugger

    Why Architects Shouldn't Build Condos out of Glass And People Shouldn't Buy Them

    By Lloyd Alter




    Glass and aluminum are great for cookware but not for buildings.

    With floor to ceiling glass, you have nowhere to hang a picture, place your furniture or change your underwear.

    Energy efficiency is five times lower than a conventional wood framed house.

    The glass area is so large that it is difficult to control temperature, it's too hot or too cold.

    If we care about the long term, we should go for a balance, no more than 30 or 40 percent glass.

    Straube noted that while aluminum and glass are easy to clean and durable, the sealants and gaskets are not, and will need maintenance and replacement down the road. This is not cheap or easy, and the burden falls on the condominium association and the owners. (Glass and aluminum have very different coefficients of expansion, and the sealants are exposed to sun, wind and rain for years.)

    Straube suggests that the reason architects choose to build like this is about style and not cost, but I disagree, having worked with the architect and window manufacturer for the project with the falling glass (which was from the balconies, not the windows, and from a different manufacturer) on some of the earliest all-glass projects in Toronto in the 90s. It's a lot cheaper and a lot easier for a developer to work with one trade, the window wall supplier, than to coordinate among trades when mixing precast or brick with glass.

    The building code encourages it too, by regulating the R-value of wall constructions, like saying all solid walls have to have an R-Value of R20, but not regulating the overall heat loss through a wall, so a builder can put up a glass tower with an R Value of R4 and comply with the code.


    https://www.treehugger.com/sustainab...-buy-them.html


    Repairing and Replacing Window Wall Systems

    Windows, specifically window wall systems on multi-unit residential buildings, are one of the costliest building envelope components in high-rise complexes in B.C.
    https://www.bchousing.org/publicatio...ll-Systems.pdf
    Last edited by KC; 05-12-2018 at 09:11 AM.

  71. #371

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    Wasnt sure where to put this article so here it is as it was brought in by the ndp.

    https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...ourt-of-appeal

    Apparently we have adults taking kids from school grounds and taking them to their own personal residence. Driving them around in their own cars. This facilitator doesnt have a kid in that school or any kids at all.

    In another case a kid was taken to a conference and told dont worry about all your classes your parents will never find out.. of course they did when the parents found all sorts of inappropriate items in the kids bedrooms.

    Are there any parents here who would be okay with total strangers inviting their kids into their homes?? Yet it's acceptable for these strangers to take kids during school hours into their house and their personal vehicles under the gsa legislation.

    My kids need a permission slip for absolutely everything including a "field trip" inside school grounds.... but hey lets take the most vulnerable kids out of school with zero recourse, supervision or oversight because that's going to help them.

    It's a recipe for disaster

  72. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Wasnt sure where to put this article so here it is as it was brought in by the ndp.

    https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...ourt-of-appeal

    Apparently we have adults taking kids from school grounds and taking them to their own personal residence. Driving them around in their own cars. This facilitator doesnt have a kid in that school or any kids at all.

    In another case a kid was taken to a conference and told dont worry about all your classes your parents will never find out.. of course they did when the parents found all sorts of inappropriate items in the kids bedrooms.

    Are there any parents here who would be okay with total strangers inviting their kids into their homes?? Yet it's acceptable for these strangers to take kids during school hours into their house and their personal vehicles under the gsa legislation.

    My kids need a permission slip for absolutely everything including a "field trip" inside school grounds.... but hey lets take the most vulnerable kids out of school with zero recourse, supervision or oversight because that's going to help them.

    It's a recipe for disaster
    Wow, that's not right at all. I don't see how anyone can think this is okay

  73. #373

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    I dont get it. It's about protecting the kids but we've created a higher risk issue with zero over sight or responsibility that's lacking common sense.

    The under lying message being passed to kids seems to be dont worry your parents will never find out. Sounds beyond creepy if you ask me

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    There's a drop every year at Christmas for seasonal work.

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    ^The Labour Force Survey is seasonally adjusted to account for things like temporary hiring during the Christmas season.

    Considering the economic headwinds Alberta is facing, so far employment is holding up surprisingly well. On a year over year basis - November 2017 to November 2018 - Alberta has been a net increase of 79,500 full-time jobs.

    https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail.../t003a-eng.htm
    Last edited by East McCauley; 08-12-2018 at 04:53 PM.

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    Are these private sector, public, full time part time, numbers are massaged all the time. If Alberta is doing so well, not counting the many now off work and UI, why are charities suffering, for the first time in six decades?
    It doesn't add up.

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    ^Statistics Canada does not massage numbers. Like any survey, sampling errors due to survey size are possible, and are even disclosed on the data tables. The reason I cited the full-time jobs number year over year rather than the monthly change, is because the underlying longer term trend is more important (and accurate) than monthly fluctuations.

    In answer to your question above, here is a link to the data table on employment by province and by industry, seasonally adjusted:

    https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail.../t006a-eng.htm

    The third column from the right shows the change in employment by industry between November 2017 and November 2018. The third column from the left shows the standard error.

  79. #379

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    Jobs numbers are not the same as income levels. Someone loses a $50,000 a yr full time job, EI runs out and then the person takes a $30,000 a yr full time job. The jobs number is restored but not the income number. Do this by tens of thousands of jobs and charities subsequently take in less donation dollars.

    Moreover, run an economy primarily on energy resource exports then double or triple the population over that six decades, all the while making the primary industry operationally less and less labour intensive and the net returns gained from energy exports has to be divied up amongst ever more people. Run ups in commodity prices in up cycles bring in billions in capital investment that drives up construction expenditures that trickle down into the economy (more like pours down) and drives up salaries. Drives up salaries on jobs destined to disappear when that capital investment totally vanishes during the inevitable down cycle and the royalty income collapses also due to the downward commodity price cycle. The government and personal debt uptake inevitably also tops out and there simply isn’t that much money anywhere anymore to divvy our amongst the much larger population base.


    Ontario and BC doing any better? They are taking in capital and building houses. Lots and lots of houses. At least Alberta built productive export orientated assets as well as lots of houses. I’m not sure what productive assets B.C. and Ontario has built. But the leverage of a real estate boom sure has helped employment numbers - while the boom and low interest rates last.




    “Today the world's gold stock is about 170,000 metric tons. If all of this gold were melded together, it would form a cube of about 68 feet per side. (Picture it fitting comfortably within a baseball infield.) At $1,750 per ounce -- gold's price as I write this -- its value would be about $9.6 trillion. Call this cube pile A.

    Let's now create a pile B costing an equal amount. For that, we could buy all U.S. cropland (400 million acres with output of about $200 billion annually), plus 16 Exxon Mobils (the world's most profitable company, one earning more than $40 billion annually). After these purchases, we would have about $1 trillion left over for walking-around money (no sense feeling strapped after this buying binge). Can you imagine an investor with $9.6 trillion selecting pile A over pile B?” - Warren Buffett



    Last edited by KC; 09-12-2018 at 11:46 AM.

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    ^

    on the other hand, a 100k job being done by someone commuting from the east coast whose family lives there and who makes his charitable contributions there being replaced with a 75k job being done by some one who lives here with his family and makes his charitable contributions here would have the opposite effect wouldn’t it?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Well,if everyone is doing so great, surely Notley will get back in with the highest numbers ever..call that election!

  82. #382

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    on the other hand, a 100k job being done by someone commuting from the east coast whose family lives there and who makes his charitable contributions there being replaced with a 75k job being done by some one who lives here with his family and makes his charitable contributions here would have the opposite effect wouldn’t it?
    Better yet Ken, How about many easterners with jobs up north right now, while many Alberta are not. In good times I welcome it, but, in times of need, Albertans get laid off ; this is not conjecture, and I'll leave it as that.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Jobs numbers are not the same as income levels. Someone loses a $50,000 a yr full time job, EI runs out and then the person takes a $30,000 a yr full time job. The jobs number is restored but not the income number. Do this by tens of thousands of jobs and charities subsequently take in less donation dollars.
    I am well aware. And for me it is personal as it is for many Alberta families.

    One of my sons was laid off from his job as a geophysicist for a major oil company two years ago. He has still not been able to find a new job in a field for which he went to university for six years. He's now selling outdoor sports equipment full-time and working part-time tutoring undergraduate science students at the University of Calgary. Combined these jobs pay significantly less than he was making in his profession.

    Not trying to sugarcoat anything. Well aware that many of the high paying professional jobs in the oil patch especially at Calgary head offices have not come back, and may never come back in the numbers that were there before the oil price collapse in late 2014.

    But the notion that this is all Rachel Notley's fault and that electing Jason Kenney will somehow magically fix this is complete BS.

  84. #384

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    notley not supporting the oil and gas industry over the last 3 years is why the jobs arent coming back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    notley not supporting the oil and gas industry over the last 3 years is why the jobs arent coming back.
    in areas where the province has any direct involvement, she’s been pretty supportive. you can’t fault her for decisions made made by federal governments here and in the u.s.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    notley not supporting the oil and gas industry over the last 3 years is why the jobs arent coming back.

    She certainly took her time, and she hired people that were anti oil..great, just great. Then all of a sudden, her eyes were wide open..

  87. #387

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    notley not supporting the oil and gas industry over the last 3 years is why the jobs arent coming back.
    in areas where the province has any direct involvement, she’s been pretty supportive. you can’t fault her for decisions made made by federal governments here and in the u.s.
    I would say she's finally been supportive as of late but nothing she did in the first 2+ years leading alberta would indicate to most that she cared much about what's been going on in the oil and gas industry.

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    ^Rachel Notley demonstrated exemplary leadership during the Fort McMurray wildfire in May 2016. She appointed Dave Mowat to lead the royalty review whose recommendations were widely praised by the oil and gas industry. She stayed the course on seeing the Northwest refinery project through to completion despite the opposition of right wing ideologues like Ted Morton. She's supported some promising energy diversification initiatives the largest of which is the Inter Pipeline Heartland Petrochemical Complex, a $3.5 billion project currently under construction. All of these initiatives started during Notley's first two years in office.

  89. #389

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    LOL the mass exodus of oil and gas companies out of alberta left because of the choices or lack there of from the NDP. Notley didnt stand up and fight bill c69. She actively spoke against multiple pipelines.

    Notley couldnt even battle bc as they did everything in their power to shut down the pipelines. Notley was too busy pushing the social license to see that this wasn't winning her any allies anywhere. While our oil and gas sector has been attacked left and right our govts sat by and did nothing. The list goes on and on and on...

    Let's not be delusional and think notley or the ndp have been good partners for oil and gas sector.

    But hey at least the ndp have legislated GSA's for schools so random strangers can take kids out of school and bring them into their own homes with no oversight. I'm so thankful that the schools most vulnerable kids are safer now.

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    This isn't true. Notley did stand up against bill C-69 on many occasions for example:

    https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/bill-c-6...tley-1.1142871
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  91. #391

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    This isn't true. Notley did stand up against bill C-69 on many occasions for example:

    https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/bill-c-6...tley-1.1142871
    that was longgggg after the bill started working it's way through all the initial readings. Our province stayed silent until they realized Trudeau wasnt going to be an ally for alberta.

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    Yet despite all of that the liberals went and bought TMP anyway.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  93. #393

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    This isn't true. Notley did stand up against bill C-69 on many occasions for example:

    https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/bill-c-6...tley-1.1142871
    that was longgggg after the bill started working it's way through all the initial readings. Our province stayed silent until they realized Trudeau wasnt going to be an ally for alberta.
    Here’s what was said:

    “Notley said she is also concerned the changes could lead to overreach by Ottawa into traditional areas of provincial jurisdiction. That encroachment would be unacceptable to Alberta, she added.

    “This is our industry,” she said. “We have built it. It’s part of who Albertans are and it needs to be something that remains under the control of Albertans.”


    People seem to be buying Kenny’s spin:

    Notley disputes Kenney's accusation that she was too slow to fight anti-pipeline bills
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...-c69-1.4840172


    Rachel Notley slams Bill C-69 at International Pipeline Conference | CBC News
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...eech-1.4837583


    Here’s the Hansard from May 18, 2018
    Interesting reading. Just search for C-69:

    http://www.assembly.ab.ca/ISYS/LADDA...330_01_han.pdf
    Last edited by KC; 10-12-2018 at 07:09 AM.

  94. #394

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    Why hasn’t anyone starting a dedicated thread on c2e for Bill C-69?

  95. #395

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    LOL the mass exodus of oil and gas companies out of alberta left because of the choices or lack there of from the NDP. Notley didnt stand up and fight bill c69. She actively spoke against multiple pipelines.

    Notley couldnt even battle bc as they did everything in their power to shut down the pipelines. Notley was too busy pushing the social license to see that this wasn't winning her any allies anywhere. While our oil and gas sector has been attacked left and right our govts sat by and did nothing. The list goes on and on and on...

    Let's not be delusional and think notley or the ndp have been good partners for oil and gas sector.

    But hey at least the ndp have legislated GSA's for schools so random strangers can take kids out of school and bring them into their own homes with no oversight. I'm so thankful that the schools most vulnerable kids are safer now.
    Interesting comments. But what mass exodus?

    Also C-69 is being addressed above. You and Kenny may be partially correct as Notley didn’t make it a public battle.

    Haven’t heard that anti-GSA angle before.

  96. #396

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    The list of oil sands players who are no longer around is massive and too long to list. Many sold at a loss or at fire sale prices. In regards to bill c-69 you guys are posting links from sept 2018 as though the bill was new at this point.... there was plenty of time for our govt to stand up to and prevent this bill but our govt didn't want to butt heads with the liberals. IMO our govt's been slow to act. We seem to be reacting to all the BS that's getting thrown our way. The first few years of the NDP were used to push our social license/carbon tax that will get pipe lines built but all we got were company after company selling off their alberta assets.

    In regards to the GSA's im basing my comments off the article that covered the law suit before the courts.. in it they discussed "facilitators" taking kids out of school with their personal vehicles and taking them to their house. I'm not sure any parent would agree that this is acceptable or allow this if known but it seems from the court case that many of the GSA facilitators keep pushing to the kids that their parents will never find out. With this type of secrecy and lack of over sight it wont be long till someone takes advantage of these vulnerable kids that the legislation is supposed to be protecting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    The list of oil sands players who are no longer around is massive and too long to list. Many sold at a loss or at fire sale prices.
    That's no fun. Give it a shot.

    It's hard to have an intelligent discussion with someone making broad-brush statements who fails to back them up with facts or sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    The list of oil sands players who are no longer around is massive and too long to list. Many sold at a loss or at fire sale prices. In regards to bill c-69 you guys are posting links from sept 2018 as though the bill was new at this point.... there was plenty of time for our govt to stand up to and prevent this bill but our govt didn't want to butt heads with the liberals. IMO our govt's been slow to act. We seem to be reacting to all the BS that's getting thrown our way. The first few years of the NDP were used to push our social license/carbon tax that will get pipe lines built but all we got were company after company selling off their alberta assets.

    In regards to the GSA's im basing my comments off the article that covered the law suit before the courts.. in it they discussed "facilitators" taking kids out of school with their personal vehicles and taking them to their house. I'm not sure any parent would agree that this is acceptable or allow this if known but it seems from the court case that many of the GSA facilitators keep pushing to the kids that their parents will never find out. With this type of secrecy and lack of over sight it wont be long till someone takes advantage of these vulnerable kids that the legislation is supposed to be protecting.
    emphasis added... to be fair, it was the only area where the party had any semblance of actual policy that could be implemented and, to be equally fair, they went about it reasonably.

    going further than that, no one in or out of the ndp including notley expected that they would be forming government after the last election. they left the previous legislative session with all of 4 seats - barely enough for official party status - and were not even the official opposition.

    while they were elected government with 54 seats (up and astonishing 1,350%) and almost 41% of the popular vote (up almost 31%), they had absolutely no experience in running a government or even the responsibility of seriously opposing one.

    love them or hate them, you have to at least grudgingly give notley credit for what she accomplished with a neophyte supporting cast with what must have been one of the steepest learning curves of any government in canada ever. have they done a perfect job? far from it - but their predecessor government with more than four decades of experience certainly wasn't doing a perfect job either.
    Last edited by kcantor; 10-12-2018 at 11:31 AM.
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    I can't wait to see her leave!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    I can't wait to see her leave!
    i'd have never guessed...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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