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Thread: Famous Spanish street artist courted to paint Edmonton's biggest mural

  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Perfect point.

    Can't paint a Canadian landscape because the scenery was all appropriated.

    Not sure how that is a valid reply. The artist cited indigenous inspiration for his work. First nations authorities have called him out on that and that he had no consultation with indigenous peoples here which is an agreed statement of fact. The artist himself could have easily avoided the controversy by simply not stating "indigenous inspired". Its idiotic for him to state that, and theres nothing in the work that even remotely reflects indigenous culture as has been stated.
    So, where would an outsider appropriately begin the process of consultation? Consulting with authorities or with artists?
    One or the other or both. Either would further a better understanding through consultation and make connections to people that would be good to talk to. Elders as well.


    We discuss things like casual racism here. This is an example in this thread discussion. Its not written, but its implied, that there is no value or reason to consult ACTUAL indigenous spirituality, culture, or belief systems even while a "tourist artist" cited indigenous inspiration". Yet the work, and the artist is not indigenous informed. The take from that is that consultation wasn't seen as any priority. Would Michelangelo paint the Sistine Chapel without any knowledge or consultation with a faith? Its a valid question. Its a question being asked by indigenous peoples. Why is the culture and expertise in their spirituality and belief system not valued? Why does consultation not even occur?

    This episode reinforces why the dialog needs to be heard and listened to. Apparently we still don't get it. We can plunder another culture, even say were doing that without even attempting to understand that culture.
    “Its not written, but its implied, that there is no value or reason to consult ACTUAL indigenous spirituality, culture, or belief systems even while a "tourist artist" cited indigenous inspiration". “

    Seems to me that you’re failing to consult before calling out “racism”.

    So are you saying that an artist in another part of the world having say, looked at some art created by artists in another part of the world (but failing to become informed about that art), cannot be “inspired” by that art.

    So this would mean that a piece of art produced by any artist can not stand on its own as inspirational material for any other artist, unless the viewing artist seeks to understand the culture of the artist producing it?

    Similarly watching a Shakespearian play, in and of itself, can not be said to be inspirational to other writers unless those writers consult with experts.

    Possibly a better model to follow, as long as the wealthy are able to backstop the process:
    Where faith and beauty bloom: Inside Edmonton’s new Islamic-inspired garden - The Globe and Mail

    “The project was planned and designed over eight years by a U.S.-based landscape architecture firm that dispatched employees to study historical sites around the globe. They saturated themselves in Islamic landscapes and consulted with scholars to understand the underlying themes. Medieval Islamic gardens are known for their use of geometric lines and terraces to tame uneven terrain. Water is a primary component and is often displayed in a variety of ways.”

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...amic-inspired/


    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    KC, my comments that you quoted are exactly what the indigenous authorities in the article cited, So I'm not sure what you are stating in response to me citing the actual concerns as expressed.

    The longstanding feeling that indigenous culture, spirituality, art, religion should be wiped out in cultural genocide is something that this country is trying to recover from. So that a claim of casual racism still persisting, when people still exhibit such confusion and stating things like "the notion of cultural appropriation makes me sick" then its pretty clear to me that some conceptual difficulties in understanding persist.

    As far as referencing its even in our system of science. If you reference an article or study in a Scientific paper its expected that you consulted, i.e. at least read that work and are not misrepresenting it and that you are able to specifically cite in footnote reference and specifically in how it applies to your work. This is all expected.

    As per the indigenous authorities quoted the Artist in question cited indigenous inspiration in a work that does not even remotely reflect indigenous belief systems or connection with spirit animals.

    So that the artist here is citing out of any context. He's being called out on that very thing..


    The key thing is if you cite something, than you ought to be informed on what that is.


    As far as your other comment what would English Blues of the 60's have sounded like if it hadn't listened to the actual Blues? What would the commentary be if those artists hadn't profusely cited the works and inspirations in name and in record and songwriter acknowledgement. The difference is clear. Artists that owed to the original blues work and said so and had a passion and informed love of the work they are replicating vs rip off charlatans that couldn't be bothered.
    “We discuss things like casual racism here. This is an example in this thread discussion. Its not written, but its implied, that there is no value or reason to consult ACTUAL indigenous spirituality, culture, or belief systems even while a "tourist artist" cited indigenous inspiration".

    “KC, my comments that you quoted are exactly what the indigenous authorities in the article cited,”




    You failed to reference that fact. . Though I now do see quotation markers at the end. Did you merge your thoughts with that of the article?
    Last edited by KC; 06-08-2018 at 11:29 AM.

  2. #102

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    I do agree and have argued that context matters. The better one understands something the better off they are in appropriately and informatively referencing anything.


    Limiting someone’s view that is admittedly being ‘inspired’ by something and then incorporated into their own sense of something else, and then restricting that person from then ‘admitting’ it, is a tougher condition being placed on learning and experience.
    Last edited by KC; 06-08-2018 at 11:49 AM.

  3. #103

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    ^^KC, format can be hard to read here. But moreso due to me posting here on "Standard Editor" format which removes any ability to bold, italicize, or otherwise denote text. I have none of those options I can't even put segments in quote tags and have it work very well in standard editor. Sorry for the confusion but that's been a site problem I've had posting here since the changeover to this site. If I don't use standard editor my posts don't load at all. They just freeze.

    I can't start threads either. Standard Editor format allows few provisions.
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  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^^KC, format can be hard to read here. But moreso due to me posting here on "Standard Editor" format which removes any ability to bold, italicize, or otherwise denote text. I have none of those options I can't even put segments in quote tags and have it work very well in standard editor. Sorry for the confusion but that's been a site problem I've had posting here since the changeover to this site. If I don't use standard editor my posts don't load at all. They just freeze.

    I can't start threads either. Standard Editor format allows few provisions.
    Context matters.

    What are you doing to eliminate a reoccurrence of the limitations that are causing issues and misinterpretations?

    Here this artist coming on short notice from across the world faced problems too. He may have to increase his fees substantially to meet expectations.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^^KC, format can be hard to read here. But moreso due to me posting here on "Standard Editor" format which removes any ability to bold, italicize, or otherwise denote text. I have none of those options I can't even put segments in quote tags and have it work very well in standard editor. Sorry for the confusion but that's been a site problem I've had posting here since the changeover to this site. If I don't use standard editor my posts don't load at all. They just freeze.

    I can't start threads either. Standard Editor format allows few provisions.
    Context matters.

    What are you doing to eliminate a reoccurrence of the limitations that are causing issues and misinterpretations?

    Here this artist coming on short notice from across the world faced problems too. He may have to increase his fees substantially to meet expectations.
    I've done plenty to try to further understanding. Its a lifelong passion Including in my career. Which requires constant relearning and education and exposure that I would do anyway. So that maybe I comprehend the issues somewhat better. Albeit in this particular instance I wanted indigenous peoples to speak out on this directly, first hand, to clarify their response.

    But all people should do is attempt to be informed, to have increased context, understanding. Its necessary for this current nation to move forward.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-08-2018 at 12:33 PM.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ...
    Would Michelangelo paint the Sistine Chapel without any knowledge or consultation with a faith? Its a valid question. Its a question being asked by indigenous peoples. Why is the culture and expertise in their spirituality and belief system not valued? Why does consultation not even occur?
    ...
    that’s an interesting question... i’m sure michelangelo would not have painted the sistine chapel the way he did without “consultation with a faith”. i’m also pretty sure that had more than a little something to do with that faith commissioning him to do the work on property they owned and within which they practiced that faith.

    i’m not sure the above means michalengelo needed to consult further with them on subsequent works not commissioned by them simply because of where he was drawing his inspiration for those works. what if he was inspired by that faith’s art and also by muslim art and mathematics? who reconciles and allows his interpretations to take form when those faiths and their images and beliefs conflict? is not michelangelo the only one to be able to say what inspired him when it comes to any specific work and who is to say he is wrong?

    even in this case the artist is not saying the piece itself represents indigineous art or art forms, he was only commenting on what inspired him (and even then it was not attributed to local indigineous inspiration to the exclusion of central or south american locales with much different representations and beliefs).
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    I suppose those "authorities" on the Cree art must think the artists below should have consulted them on the piece below. But these artists had their own inspiration. A little google searching reveals many half man/half wolf art forms from all over the world.

    "In the fall of 2012, Brooklyn-based artist group FAILE, a collaboration between artists Patrick McNeil and Patrick Miller, unveiled this permanent public installation entitled Wolf Within. Standing approximately 16.5 feet tall, the sculpture consists of fiberglass, steel, and granite, and is located at the site of the National Garden Park in Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia." https://mymodernmet.com/faile-wolf-within/


  8. #108

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    I don't think that The Beatles contacted Chuck Berry and blues/soul/rock & roll religious leaders before singing his songs.

    The fox has boobs, should the artist also have contacted 12 feminist groups, 2 nudist camps and the local moral majority?

    Art by committee. Stifling free artistic impression since the Dark Ages.
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    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I don't think that The Beatles contacted Chuck Berry and blues/soul/rock & roll religious leaders before singing his songs.

    The fox has boobs, should the artist also have contacted 12 feminist groups, 2 nudist camps and the local moral majority?

    Art by committee. Stifling free artistic impression since the Dark Ages.
    Which only shows how misinformed you are then. The Stones, Beatles, Cream would host Blues magicians coming over, wine and dine them, and treat them like royalty and party with them. They'd bring them out on tour. They'd be thrilled to play music with them. They worshipped the Blues magicians and knew it to be the wellspring of their musical form. THAT is what appreciation of an art form looks like.


    The argument is NOT about art by committee its co-opting indigenous culture and not even having the decency to do it in a way that would even respect what the artist says to be his inspiration.

    When you see brilliant indigenous art do you see it as Committee borne or what it is, art that is alive, passionate, that transcends time, and that always has meaning.

    Besides which this artistic mural is entirely formulaic. Basically the form this artist does in all his work. I don't think its even particularly well done for what it is. Just because its primarily one artist making it doesn't really mean its an original or exciting work.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-08-2018 at 09:38 PM.
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    ^

    maybe next time we could invite peeta?

    https://goo.gl/images/7FmkT6
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    maybe next time we could invite peeta?

    https://goo.gl/images/7FmkT6
    That three d is terrific...

  13. #113

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    Opinion | In defence of free artistic expression | TheSpec.com

    https://www.thespec.com/opinion-stor...ic-expression/

  14. #114

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    Its easier to find articles that are highly critical of the same artists Cultural appropriation. You actually found one of the very rare articles supporting her.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...dapl-1.4091529

    This article contains some important points;

    Magee said that in his own opinion there is no debate about appropriating from Indigenous people.
    "Yes it's tricky, cultural issues and borrowing from different cultures — everybody has an opinion. But everyone here in Canada has to be aware of the history of how Indigenous people have been dealt with from the time of colonial settlements, and there is a specific perspective that we have to have with respect to that culture," Magee said.
    'Our culture has been slammed down'
    Soule shares that view.
    His own work flips Indigenous stereotypes on their head in everything from sports teams to film — taking well-known movie posters and recasting them with titles like The Bride of Frankensioux and Tribe of Dracula. But Soule said borrowing from Indigenous people is a different case altogether.
    That's a point he sees reflected in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which affirms full protection over Indigenous Peoples' intellectual property — ranging from oral stories to artwork.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-08-2018 at 11:18 PM.
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  15. #115

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    btw Amanda PL had a controversial video outed in which her and friends referred to Asian individuals as chinks including making squint eyed impressions of them. This apparently being her depth of acceptance of other cultures. My impression is she's an insufferable ahole. A not rarely expressed opinion of her btw.

    This references her slight to Asian people. The youtube videos have all been pulled down ironically because they are copyright of Amanda Pl..

    https://ricochet.media/en/1808/canad...-appropriation

    ftr there are several references to the "Chink" offensive video from several sources. Amanda Pl even acknowledges having made the offensive video as "entertainment"

    https://www.pressreader.com/canada/t...81646780069897


    So this is the nature of jerk who is appropriating indigenous art. She may as well be exhibit A.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-08-2018 at 11:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Opinion | In defence of free artistic expression | TheSpec.com

    https://www.thespec.com/opinion-stor...ic-expression/
    KC, did you see how white the woman who wrote that opinion piece is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    btw Amanda PL had a controversial video outed in which her and friends referred to Asian individuals as chinks including making squint eyed impressions of them. This apparently being her depth of acceptance of other cultures. My impression is she's an insufferable ahole. A not rarely expressed opinion of her btw.

    This references her slight to Asian people. The youtube videos have all been pulled down ironically because they are copyright of Amanda Pl..

    https://ricochet.media/en/1808/canad...-appropriation

    ftr there are several references to the "Chink" offensive video from several sources. Amanda Pl even acknowledges having made the offensive video as "entertainment"

    https://www.pressreader.com/canada/t...81646780069897


    So this is the nature of jerk who is appropriating indigenous art. She may as well be exhibit A.

    Interesting.

  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    […] So this is the nature of jerk who is appropriating indigenous art. She may as well be exhibit A.
    So this is the nature of the jerk who is appropriating indigenous indignation. You may as well be Exhibit blow-it-out-your ***.

    But do go on about your credentials to categorize, define and appraise artistic expression for everyone.

  19. #119

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    Ok I have to back up here.

    So the Spanish artist said he was inspired by indigenous art. Some indigenous people say there is nothing indigenous about his art. However, now the case is being made that he appropriated indigenous culture by taking inspiration away from one or more indigenous cultures or was inappropriately inspired by whatever he’d seen from Spain. Moreover, it would seem that the case is being made that the UN may have even provided indigenous cultures with ownership rights to any inspiration coming away from simply viewing any indigenous culture’s cultural property. So I’m now thinking that an indigenous culture maybe owed damages for infringement of their rights to ownership.

    Sorry, I’m still somewhat unsure of all this stuff. So is this like a case of trademark infringement? (Sorry but that’s a western concept so I’m not sure if that could apply.)

    Actually maybe it’s like the disputes in the music industry over copying components of songs but without the actual notes being copied.

    Or maybe this is like Steve Jobs viewing technology in the 1970s that led him to create kockoffs.


    Ok, I'm maybe now starting to better come around to the appropriation side of things.
    Last edited by KC; 07-08-2018 at 07:15 AM.

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    Would there been any uproar if he'd simply not commented on his artwork at all? Looking at it, I don't see anything indigenous in the style.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    I suggest you donate to Rust Magic; I believe they do a 50/50 split between local and imported artists, so just tell them you'd like to support a local artist.
    Amen. Great festival, amazing organizers, fantastic results.
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    I wonder when Suncor will condemn the artist for portraying an animal wading in a pool of oil. Did he even reach out to understand the practices they've put in place to prevent such things?

  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Ok I have to back up here.

    So the Spanish artist said he was inspired by indigenous art. Some indigenous people say there is nothing indigenous about his art. However, now the case is being made that he appropriated indigenous culture by taking inspiration away from one or more indigenous cultures or was inappropriately inspired by whatever he’d seen from Spain. Moreover, it would seem that the case is being made that the UN may have even provided indigenous cultures with ownership rights to any inspiration coming away from simply viewing any indigenous culture’s cultural property. So I’m now thinking that an indigenous culture maybe owed damages for infringement of their rights to ownership.

    Sorry, I’m still somewhat unsure of all this stuff. So is this like a case of trademark infringement? (Sorry but that’s a western concept so I’m not sure if that could apply.)

    Actually maybe it’s like the disputes in the music industry over copying components of songs but without the actual notes being copied.

    Or maybe this is like Steve Jobs viewing technology in the 1970s that led him to create kockoffs.


    Ok, I'm maybe now starting to better come around to the appropriation side of things.
    The Un has passed declaration that protects indigenous rights. Some part of this is cultural and intellectual rights. Many countries have adopted the UN recommendations in their own legislation thereby similarly protecting those rights.

    This earlier article on why it was necessary explains it better and goes specifically into intellectual rights;

    https://www.culturalsurvival.org/pub...y-rights-tools




    "A legal framework for the protection of indigenous knowledge, however, remains elusive since most provisions for intellectual property law evolved out of a Western view of knowledge as a commodity owned by an individual, not a community.(1)"

    "The most problematic aspect of any meaningful discussion of intellectual property rights is that the notion of IPR is, in itself, a Western concept being applied to non-Western societies. Mita Manek and Robert Lettington get to the heart of the matter by describing this irreconcilable difference between Western and (for lack of a better word) non-Western outlooks on the world. Their insights may be the best argument yet for a sui generis legal system to deal with challenges to the cultural, artistic and heritage rights of indigenous peoples."


    Other reasons are that colonial expansionism and indigenous cultural and/or actual genocides have marginalized indigenous culture and peoples. Who have reduced lands, means, livelihood. Even an economic argument is often made that indigenous artists are adopting one of the remaining things available to them in which to make a living. Indeed so much art emanating from northern regions where art represents a figurative way out of the ghetto, a touch with their ancestors, their spirits, their cultural bonding.

    First Nations peoples have oral tradition. Their sense of individual and community is inherently different. So that a person living today is true to himself but true to ancestors and lineage and beliefs 100's of years ago. With elders maintaining those lineages. When a artist like Amanda PL comes in and intentionally steals the work and intellectual property she's not only taking livelihood from actual indigenous artists and communities she is muddying their culture. So that if her art is misrepresented (and sometimes it has been) as indigenous art than it can confuse legitimacy of COMMUNAL experience that resulted in the artistic form in the first place.
    Last edited by Replacement; 07-08-2018 at 10:28 AM.
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  24. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    Would there been any uproar if he'd simply not commented on his artwork at all? Looking at it, I don't see anything indigenous in the style.

    Exactly. Its even odd an artist, any artist would not be familiar with why it was inherently a bad idea to make such claim on his artistic inspiration in 2018. Partly because it really does open up a kettle of fish, and because it then steps into controversy, and wades into the cultural appropriation theme.
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    ^ ^^

    i think you're confusing inspiration for original art with the expropriation of original art created by others. it's my understanding that the un resolution deals with the latter, not the former, and is primarily concerned with replicas being created and sold as original "native art" or images being reproduced for profit in everything from wallpaper to material patterns with no credit (monetary or otherwise) to the original artist.

    it wouldn't be acceptable if the original image's artist was rembrandt or van gogh or picasso or warhol instead of aboriginal. but that doesn't mean original works inspired by rembrandt or van gogh or picasso or warhol should somehow be banned. none of them are alive today to "consult" or do you propose that one should consult with the netherlands or spain or the local american embassy before taking inspiration from their work?
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  26. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^ ^^

    i think you're confusing inspiration for original art with the expropriation of original art created by others. it's my understanding that the un resolution deals with the latter, not the former, and is primarily concerned with replicas being created and sold as original "native art" or images being reproduced for profit in everything from wallpaper to material patterns with no credit (monetary or otherwise) to the original artist.

    it wouldn't be acceptable if the original image's artist was rembrandt or van gogh or picasso or warhol instead of aboriginal. but that doesn't mean original works inspired by rembrandt or van gogh or picasso or warhol should somehow be banned. none of them are alive today to "consult" or do you propose that one should consult with the netherlands or spain or the local american embassy before taking inspiration from their work?
    To be clear in my own view and understanding Amanda PL is quite clearly stealing. This is ripoff art, nothing short of it. Its clear theft of indigenous intellectual property as established by the UN and to a degree of the Toronto Art Gallery promptly cancelling the display upon being informed and that they "woke up" to what was going on. Good for them.

    The Edmonton Mural is not the same kind of case. Its just an example wherein the issues of cultural appropriation come up for discussion and consideration. Its just a reminder kind of example. Reminding that these issues exist. Its an interesting topic area, doesn't come up on this board too much, and its some interesting reading for participants here or lurkers.

    I hope this clears up my stance Ken, anyway. Not that my particular stance has any relevance at all regarding the issues at hand.
    Last edited by Replacement; 07-08-2018 at 11:59 AM.
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  27. #127

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    I agree.

    I also wonder what authoritative organization do you have to contact to get approval to paint inspired artworks? There are a multitude of Band Councils and groups but who is the definitive Authority having Juristiction? And even if you find them, will other groups or individuals disapprove because the artist is non-first nations?

    This is getting out of hand because you now have actors who cannot play roles because they are not gay like the character they portray. What's next? Do you have to be Italian to be in a mafia movie? Do you have to be a policeman to play a policeman? Or should I say a police person?
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  28. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    […] So this is the nature of jerk who is appropriating indigenous art. She may as well be exhibit A.
    So this is the nature of the jerk who is appropriating indigenous indignation. You may as well be Exhibit blow-it-out-your ***.

    But do go on about your credentials to categorize, define and appraise artistic expression for everyone.
    Thank you, if its OK with you I will. If I take silly punches like this for speaking out on what is right then I'll continue to do so gladly.
    Last edited by Replacement; 07-08-2018 at 10:55 AM.
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  29. #129

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    ^ Finding artistic inspiration from a culturally-identifiable source isn't cultural appropriation. And to state that the artistic use of such inspiration requires some arbitrary level of consultation from some arbitrary representative of said source isn't "what is right," it's asinine.

  30. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    ^ Finding artistic inspiration from a culturally-identifiable source isn't cultural appropriation. And to state that the artistic use of such inspiration requires some arbitrary level of consultation from some arbitrary representative of said source isn't "what is right," it's asinine.

    A better response with at least content this time. I've differentiated my takes a few posts above.

    Its fairer comment that "indigenous artistic inspiration" is not always encompassing cultural appropriation. But the rest of your comment we'll agree to disagree. Consultation, dialog, discussion, are solutions and ways and paths to better understanding. They should be encouraged.

    But in the case of Amanda PL its very clearly appropriation. Its outright theft of indigenous intellectual property.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  31. #131

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    Sorry, Charlie. An artistic style (of any kind) is not property. Original creation of art (of any kind) in a recognizable style (of any kind) is not theft, outright or otherwise.

    Your prerogative to feel indignation in no way validates your declaration of an artist's impropriety. Good luck stifling artistic creativity and best of luck following up in court.

  32. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    Sorry, Charlie. An artistic style (of any kind) is not property. Original creation of art (of any kind) in a recognizable style (of any kind) is not theft, outright or otherwise.

    Your prerogative to feel indignation in no way validates your declaration of an artist's impropriety. Good luck stifling artistic creativity and best of luck following up in court.
    lol. I have no direct interest in this. I'm Caucasian. I'm not an artist. However I am vested in UN resolution that has recognized and declared the rights of indigenous peoples which is of course the right thing to do. You can exist in some other pretend world of your own festered imagining.
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  33. #133

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    No, no. Do tell in what corner of your own festered imagining, or UN article of declaration for that matter, do you find that artistic creation in a recognizable style is "outright theft?" And, do tell, what makes such festered imagining "the right thing to do?"

  34. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    ^ Finding artistic inspiration from a culturally-identifiable source isn't cultural appropriation. And to state that the artistic use of such inspiration requires some arbitrary level of consultation from some arbitrary representative of said source isn't "what is right," it's asinine.
    Agree whole heartily. There will always be art forgery and copycats like Armada PL who should not be doing what she does but then you have English immigrants like Ted Harrison who was inspired by First Nations art but created his own style.

    I would hate to see the day when only certain artists can do certain works in certain mediums. I have no trouble with a First Nations artist carving Italian marble of nude figures but if he copies Michaelangelo then I have issues.

    No one wants to see the day when artists are forced to go to indoctrination camps to learn about their subjects...
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  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    ^ Finding artistic inspiration from a culturally-identifiable source isn't cultural appropriation. And to state that the artistic use of such inspiration requires some arbitrary level of consultation from some arbitrary representative of said source isn't "what is right," it's asinine.
    Agree whole heartily. There will always be art forgery and copycats like Armada PL who should not be doing what she does but then you have English immigrants like Ted Harrison who was inspired by First Nations art but created his own style.

    I would hate to see the day when only certain artists can do certain works in certain mediums. I have no trouble with a First Nations artist carving Italian marble of nude figures but if he copies Michaelangelo then I have issues.

    No one wants to see the day when artists are forced to go to indoctrination camps to learn about their subjects...
    emphasis added...

    why? all of the masters and their students copied each others works prolifically. what they didn't do was forge each others works - their copies were their work, not held out to be "originals".

    as for amanda pl, i don't think she is forging or misrepresenting. she is not selling her work as genuine native art. just as there is nothing wrong with a[nother] marble copy of michaelangelo's david as long as its not being sold as an original michaelangelo, she is not selling her work as original piece of native art. you may or may not like her art and you may or may not like her as an individual but those are different things. i'm not sure anyone looks at michaelangelo's art today and likes it or not based on his character as an individual and how christian or how italian he was or wasn't.
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  36. #136

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    I thank you kcantor for taking the bait. I always like your thoughtful comments.

    If one of Edmonton's First Nations artists went over to Spain or Italy and carved an exact replica of Michaelangelo's David, I would be thrilled. As long as he or she does not say it was done by Michaelangelo and wants $20m for the sculpture.

    This is a great and thoughtful debate that has huge consequences and lots of social issues. I think of the issue like Champagne. They set rules that anyone can make champagne style wines but only those from the region can be called Champagne. All others can be called sparkling wines.

    Making illogical rules on art is truly restrictive and cuts both ways. Why can't a woman play a man's part or a gay man play a straight man or vise versa? Just don't claim to be the real thing. Everyone know that most of the tourist items and art these days are made in China.

    It is almost like reverse racism. There, I said it. Not allowing others to be inspired and emulate is just wrong. I like Chuck Berry and I like when The Beatles or even Michael J. Fox plays Chuck Berry too.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 07-08-2018 at 07:50 PM.
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  37. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    ^ Finding artistic inspiration from a culturally-identifiable source isn't cultural appropriation. And to state that the artistic use of such inspiration requires some arbitrary level of consultation from some arbitrary representative of said source isn't "what is right," it's asinine.
    Agree whole heartily. There will always be art forgery and copycats like Armada PL who should not be doing what she does but then you have English immigrants like Ted Harrison who was inspired by First Nations art but created his own style.

    I would hate to see the day when only certain artists can do certain works in certain mediums. I have no trouble with a First Nations artist carving Italian marble of nude figures but if he copies Michaelangelo then I have issues.

    No one wants to see the day when artists are forced to go to indoctrination camps to learn about their subjects...
    emphasis added...

    why? all of the masters and their students copied each others works prolifically. what they didn't do was forge each others works - their copies were their work, not held out to be "originals".

    as for amanda pl, i don't think she is forging or misrepresenting. she is not selling her work as genuine native art. just as there is nothing wrong with a[nother] marble copy of michaelangelo's david as long as its not being sold as an original michaelangelo, she is not selling her work as original piece of native art. you may or may not like her art and you may or may not like her as an individual but those are different things. i'm not sure anyone looks at michaelangelo's art today and likes it or not based on his character as an individual and how christian or how italian he was or wasn't.
    Amanda PL' s work is outright forgery. It mimics line, thickness and hue of the work its emulating. It copies the shapes and depictions and representation of the art to the degree that it is a clear copy of Norval Morriseau's woodland depictions To the degree where the Toronto Art Gallery upon becoming informed refused to exhibit her plagiarized work. Her work was such an outright copy of indigenous work the gallery owner is on record saying he had just assumed she was indigenous and was surprised that she wasn't. Heres a strong statement from the gallery owner in question;

    “Our society has taken away the land, the freedom, the dignity and even the children of indigenous people,” Magee tells me. “And it has done too little to make retribution. They don’t have a lot left to claim as their own, not even their art, apparently.”

    Magee says it was not a hecklers’ veto that led to the cancellation but, rather, the dawning realization that Amanda PL’s show could cause great offense. “We made the decision because we woke up—and woke up quickly.”


    Yet Amanda PL continues to misrepresent that "this is my art". She verbatim stated that. If she literally Xeroxed copies of Norvals paintings would it be her art? Where is the line drawn? (excuse pun) Anybody could look at the works side by side and immediately think that they were attempts at Norvals work. She even acknowledges her work is "very similar" to Norval Morriseaus work. So that I think she's playing at words here. If this was truly her art and inspiration it would have occurred without Norvals brilliant precedent art. Ask yourself seriously if it would have. Ask yourself then if this is really Amanda PL's art or just plagiarism.

    Amanda PL thinks that she should be able to outright mimic indigenous art, to appropriate it. This article, with comments taken from Norval's family highlights the concern with cultural appropriation;

    http://aptnnews.ca/2017/05/09/norval...oronto-artist/


    And this worries him

    “Even ten years from now that her work is probably going to hang up somewhere and my dad’s artwork will be hanging right next it and people aren’t even going to know what it means,” said Eugene Morrisseau.

    He said the teachings that Anishinabe artists depict are thousands of years old; passed along through generations.

    “Oh they’re going to tell stories, Ahchoogahnoog eh, that’s where I used to go to listen to these stories through my grandparents,” he said. “Through the Elders, this is what this means when you pass on, put it on canvas this is how you tell the story.”

    Morrisseau said you can’t just pick up what he knows from the internet or books"

    I think its the heart of indigenous history being an oral and artistic history that tells its stories that is the key here. In our discussion posters are making no distinction between western world history which is conveyed in print words, which is recorded in original source records that anybody can go back to, vs a heritage that is either depicted in drawings or in verbal oral passed on history. The distinct difficulty is that when non indigenous people become part of that dialog it ALTERS that depicted history. It confuses it. One has to understand that indigenous art is more than just art. It is a depiction of their spirituality, which they should have a right to preserving.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  38. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I thank you kcantor for taking the bait. I always like your thoughtful comments.

    If one of Edmonton's First Nations artists went over to Spain or Italy and carved an exact replica of Michaelangelo's David, I would be thrilled. As long as he or she does not say it was done by Michaelangelo and wants $20m for the sculpture.

    This is a great and thoughtful debate that has huge consequences and lots of social issues. I think of the issue like Champagne. They set rules that anyone can make champagne style wines but only those from the region can be called Champagne. All others can be called sparkling wines.

    Making illogical rules on art is truly restrictive and cuts both ways. Why can't a woman play a man's part or a gay man play a straight man or vise versa? Just don't claim to be the real thing. Everyone know that most of the tourist items and art these days are made in China.

    It is almost like reverse racism. There, I said it. Not allowing others to be inspired and emulate is just wrong. I like Chuck Berry and I like when The Beatles or even Michael J. Fox plays Chuck Berry too.
    But you're inferring the want to preserve indigenous history, culture, and art is illogical. imo it has been a great and wonderful gift. I am happy to be able to observe it or hear of it. But I would never be so errant as to ALTER it. To forge it. Like I just mentioned indigenous history and culture is an oral and depicted tradition. It is NOT a written record. Indigenous peoples did not write their history of thousands of years in unending volumes like the western world and other civilizations did. Their history and ethos, their being, is contained in the oral and depicted tradition. When that is lost, all is lost. There is no other thousands of years record to go back to. So that when these traditions of passing on stories are mimicked in essence its akin to somebody pretending to be an elder and passing on different lineage. The difficulty, as the Morriseau family, as well as the gallery owner, or the UN declaration depict is that when indigenous story telling (the art is also their story) is co-opted then their story is ALTERED.

    Are people somehow not seeing this major difference?
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  39. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    ^ Finding artistic inspiration from a culturally-identifiable source isn't cultural appropriation. And to state that the artistic use of such inspiration requires some arbitrary level of consultation from some arbitrary representative of said source isn't "what is right," it's asinine.
    Agree whole heartily. There will always be art forgery and copycats like Armada PL who should not be doing what she does but then you have English immigrants like Ted Harrison who was inspired by First Nations art but created his own style.

    I would hate to see the day when only certain artists can do certain works in certain mediums. I have no trouble with a First Nations artist carving Italian marble of nude figures but if he copies Michaelangelo then I have issues.

    No one wants to see the day when artists are forced to go to indoctrination camps to learn about their subjects...
    emphasis added...

    why? all of the masters and their students copied each others works prolifically. what they didn't do was forge each others works - their copies were their work, not held out to be "originals".

    as for amanda pl, i don't think she is forging or misrepresenting. she is not selling her work as genuine native art. just as there is nothing wrong with a[nother] marble copy of michaelangelo's david as long as its not being sold as an original michaelangelo, she is not selling her work as original piece of native art. you may or may not like her art and you may or may not like her as an individual but those are different things. i'm not sure anyone looks at michaelangelo's art today and likes it or not based on his character as an individual and how christian or how italian he was or wasn't.
    Shorter answer. Western art or even judeo-christian art is not a sole record of said history. That thousands of years of history is also copied in the bible, in testaments, in various languages and scrolls. The art is not the only record. If somebody adopts the art form it does so without altering the history or depiction of that history because counter record exists.


    This is apparently harder to grasp for cultures that have written vs oral or depicted history. More than just art is at stake here. That's why indigenous people and others would call the theft "Cultural Appropriation". As a starting point in understanding the issues its important to go back to a consideration of what that term means and why its being used.
    Last edited by Replacement; 08-08-2018 at 09:50 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  40. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    ^ Finding artistic inspiration from a culturally-identifiable source isn't cultural appropriation. And to state that the artistic use of such inspiration requires some arbitrary level of consultation from some arbitrary representative of said source isn't "what is right," it's asinine.
    Agree whole heartily. There will always be art forgery and copycats like Armada PL who should not be doing what she does but then you have English immigrants like Ted Harrison who was inspired by First Nations art but created his own style.

    I would hate to see the day when only certain artists can do certain works in certain mediums. I have no trouble with a First Nations artist carving Italian marble of nude figures but if he copies Michaelangelo then I have issues.

    No one wants to see the day when artists are forced to go to indoctrination camps to learn about their subjects...
    emphasis added...

    why? all of the masters and their students copied each others works prolifically. what they didn't do was forge each others works - their copies were their work, not held out to be "originals".

    as for amanda pl, i don't think she is forging or misrepresenting. she is not selling her work as genuine native art. just as there is nothing wrong with a[nother] marble copy of michaelangelo's david as long as its not being sold as an original michaelangelo, she is not selling her work as original piece of native art. you may or may not like her art and you may or may not like her as an individual but those are different things. i'm not sure anyone looks at michaelangelo's art today and likes it or not based on his character as an individual and how christian or how italian he was or wasn't.
    Shorter answer. Western art or even judeo-christian art is not a sole record of said history. That thousands of years of history is also copied in the bible, in testaments, in various languages and scrolls. The art is not the only record. If somebody adopts the art form it does so without altering the history or depiction of that history because counter record exists.


    This is apparently harder to grasp for cultures that have written vs oral or depicted history. More than just art is at stake here. That's why indigenous people and others would call the theft "Cultural Appropriation". As a starting point in understanding the issues its important to go back to a consideration of what that term means and why its being used.
    The issue may be like hacking and stealing corporate information.

    A poor analogy here but I’ll try:

    Everyone in a company may know about some research but if some outsider breaks in, looks at the ideas and then goes and produced their own variation and prifits from it, using what they’ve learned, then that’s a form of appropriation.

    Native culture here was essentially invaded by the rest of the world and they had no ability, or apparent reason at the time, to lock down their otherwise proprietary knowledge, practises and processes. So their land, resources, cultural practises and art were and are poached and others thus profit from thousands of years of “insider” knowledge.

    British ‘stole’ Chinese pottery (bone China?)

    Othef took their dynamite knowledge.

    Steve Jobs saw Xerox developments of desktop computers...

    Thousands of patent lawsuits, music lawsuits...
    Last edited by KC; 08-08-2018 at 11:47 AM.

  41. #141
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    @MacJordaN

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  42. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Steve Jobs saw Xerox developments of desktop computers...
    An incomplete/leading example. As I pointed out back in 2011, Apple paid Xerox PARC in stock for access to the Alto/Star. One of the few times PARC actually brought in direct revenue; this contradicts your framing of the example.
    I think of art, at its most significant, as a Distant Early Warning system that can always be relied on to tell the old culture what is beginning to happen to it. —Marshall McLuhan

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    Still a beauty!

    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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