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Thread: Mackenzie Tower (10145 + 10149 104 Street) | 34 Stories Hotel + Condo | Proposed

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    Default Mackenzie Tower (10145 + 10149 104 Street) | 34 Stories Hotel + Condo | Proposed

    Limak Investments/Urban Capital of Toronto (http://www.urbancapital.ca/)

    Blue Plate Diner building + lot to the north (not including Phillips Lofts parking lot)

    3 storey podium/13 storey hotel/17 storey condo
    165 units
    4 stories underground parking
    112 metres

    Hotel is rumoured to be something Calgary has be we don't
    www.decl.org

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    www.decl.org

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    I'm guessing Germain. Sad to see Blue Plate go though. They were one of the first giving that area a reason to visit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    Limak Investments/Urban Capital of Toronto (http://www.urbancapital.ca/)

    Blue Plate Diner building + lot to the north (not including Phillips Lofts parking lot)

    3 storey podium/13 storey hotel/17 storey condo
    165 units
    4 stories underground parking
    112 metres

    Hotel is rumoured to be something Calgary has be we don't
    What lot to the north would that be? North is the parking lot but it's not included?

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    That's actually two separate parking lots. So this is a pretty small site.
    There can only be one.

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    The parking lot the north would be 10149 no? I assume that emty lot with the building south of it would be the entire package. Blue would be 10145, the former "Dance Factory" club would be ...47 and the parking lot is ...49.
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    Do not, under any circumstances, touch the Blue Plate Diner.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    It would be nice to see some height on the east side of the street.

    Blue Plate Diner was cool in 2013.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatestX View Post
    It would be nice to see some height on the east side of the street.

    Blue Plate Diner was cool in 2013.
    "was" is the operative word.

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    Change is always inevitable; on the positive note, it could always move back after completion with residence on top.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Who cares about cool? How about a great local business that helped establish 104st and would be excellent to have going forward the ad long as they want to be in business?

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    Quote Originally Posted by booster View Post
    I'm guessing Germain. Sad to see Blue Plate go though. They were one of the first giving that area a reason to visit.
    There were successful restaurants back then before 104 was transformed.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    I hope Blue Plate can find a nearby location.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I hope Blue Plate can find a nearby location.
    This. While I am quite excited about the potential of this project and having seen the initial concept renderings which I very much like, it will be sad to see that rather nice little building go and the loss of Blue Plate.

    Going over to chat with them today actually.
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    worked there in 04 or 05 while transitioning. it definitely was a big help turning 104 into what it is today. a sad irony that it has to be displaced because of the area's growth

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    Looking at Urban Capital's previous and current projects, this is bound to be a darn nice development.
    Blue plate will be able to find a new location without issue I would think. Whether it's downtown or somewhere else central shouldn't matter.

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    The issue isn't just with the Blue Plate Diner though.

    Is that not a heritage building?

    How many more of these heritage buildings have to be bulldozed before City Council finally wakes up?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    The issue isn't just with the Blue Plate Diner though.

    Is that not a heritage building?

    How many more of these heritage buildings have to be bulldozed before City Council finally wakes up?
    No its not. Walk by it and look at it. https://goo.gl/maps/AHUhEhW3Dyu

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    Quote Originally Posted by DTrobotnik View Post
    worked there in 04 or 05 while transitioning. it definitely was a big help turning 104 into what it is today. a sad irony that it has to be displaced because of the area's growth
    They will move and stay in the area. And maybe help fill a vacant bay right on 104th. Maybe even help them improve their menu and revitalize their chef and staff.

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    I haven't talked to John and Rema at Blue Plate yet to find out their take, it could be that they have a deal to leave or planned to leave, I dunno.

    Certainly Blue Plate was a pioneer on 104 Street. I think the first few years they opened I ate there hundreds of times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Looking at Urban Capital's previous and current projects, this is bound to be a darn nice development.
    Blue plate will be able to find a new location without issue I would think. Whether it's downtown or somewhere else central shouldn't matter.
    I had a preview and it is very, nicely, done. Could be dropped into Downtown Toronto, MTL, Van and look the part.
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    Will there be pedway to enbridge place?

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    Would make sense, but I cannot recall from the plans I saw.
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    The Winnipeg project that Urban completed with an Alt Hotel and residential units.
    http://www.urbancapital.ca/glasshouse-win


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    It’s not a heritage building but it is still a beautiful older building - something this city lacks. It has a ton more character than most stuff going up these days... yet we celebrate its destruction?

    It makes me sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by christopherj View Post
    It’s not a heritage building but it is still a beautiful older building - something this city lacks. It has a ton more character than most stuff going up these days... yet we celebrate its destruction?

    It makes me sad.
    Take a "good" long look https://goo.gl/maps/AHUhEhW3Dyu. Your looking as some newer not turn of the century brick and windows. Its not heritage. You can rest assured that the architects of the new project will be "pressed" to pay homage to the warehouse district, the street scape and the building it replaces. The community and EDC will see to that. This developer has quite the portfolio of successful projects.

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    It just a rectangle cinder block building. Even in the late 80s it didnt look like that until windows were added. Before Blue Diners, it was Carol's Cafe and Franks(?) before that. I think most, me included, are just nostalgic ti the excursions there. That building has fond history in the Edmonton club scene for me; im ok with a nice development, and i wont be upset if it remains as is.
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    Hotel and condo tower proposed for site of popular downtown eatery

    A development group wants to add another high-rise to the downtown warehouse district, potentially uprooting a mainstay in the city's dining scene.

    The group is proposing a 33-storey building at 10149 and 10145 104th Street. The latter address currently houses the popular Blue Plate Diner restaurant.

    In a notice posted Thursday, the group — comprised of Limak Investments and Urban Capital, working with Dialog Design and Lemaymichaud Architecture — said it wants to rezone the properties from a heritage zone to a site-specific development.

    The current heritage zone doesn't offer specific protections for older buildings, said Travis Pawlyk, a senior planner with the city. The building that houses the Blue Plate Diner has no legal protection as a designated historic resource, nor is it on the inventory of buildings with heritage value.

    "There are no strict protections. The zone provides guidance and regulations, that any new builds have to fit within the area," he said.

    "The new builds (must) reflect some of the character elements of the older buildings. So, the type of materials — brick or masonry — the placement of windows, and the overall aesthetic of the first five floors respond to those old warehouse buildings."

    The heritage zone already allows construction of new high-rise buildings. But Pawlyk said that by seeking a re-zoning to a site-specific development, the developers could add additional density or uses to the site.

    Limak Investments could not be reached for comment on Thursday. It has not yet submitted a formal re-zoning application to the city, and the project is considered to be in the pre-application phase.

    The popular commercial stretch of 104th Street already houses several modern high-rise condo towers, including Icon Towers and Fox Towers.

    The development group is proposing a hotel and condominium development with a height of 112 metres. Preliminary plans include a three-storey podium, consisting of hotel and residential lobbies, along with commercial space. That would be topped with a 13-storey hotel, followed by another 17 storeys of residential condominiums.

    A community meeting hosted by the development group is planned for September 12th at 5 p.m.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Looking at Urban Capital's previous and current projects, this is bound to be a darn nice development.
    Blue plate will be able to find a new location without issue I would think. Whether it's downtown or somewhere else central shouldn't matter.
    I had a preview and it is very, nicely, done. Could be dropped into Downtown Toronto, MTL, Van and look the part.
    Do you know which hotel brand it is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    It just a rectangle cinder block building. Even in the late 80s it didnt look like that until windows were added. Before Blue Diners, it was Carol's Cafe and Franks(?) before that. I think most, me included, are just nostalgic ti the excursions there. That building has fond history in the Edmonton club scene for me; im ok with a nice development, and i wont be upset if it remains as is.

    It looks like solid brick building. If it was cinder block why would they clad it in a brick veneer on the long side wall? Why would the go through the effort of every sixth row of brick with exposed ends?

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    LemayMichaud does a lot of work for Alt Le Germain

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenL2 View Post
    LemayMichaud does a lot of work for Alt Le Germain
    http://www.lemaymichaud.com/projets/hotellerie/
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    Would be interesting to see a tall building on the east side of 104th

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    It'll definitely add to the feeling of being on the floor of an urban canyon...
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolo View Post
    Will there be pedway to enbridge place?
    I'm glad I'm not the only one keen on expansion of the Pedway system.

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    Was gonna suggest that maybe it could have an u/g connection to the existing Bay LRT pedway, but I think maybe the site is a little too far away from the station for that to be feasible.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

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    I'm confused.. Doesn't 3+13+17=33?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It'll definitely add to the feeling of being on the floor of an urban canyon...
    That is definitely a concern, however it's realistically the only location on that side of the street, on that block, that a tower could be developed without demolishing a significant heritage building.
    www.decl.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolo View Post
    Will there be pedway to enbridge place?
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Would make sense, but I cannot recall from the plans I saw.
    Especially since the leg from "Manulife 2" to Enbridge Place is (and has always been) a very dead end, unused leg of what presumably should be a pedway system that grows with the city. Well, 104 Street has grown particularly strongly and there's no access by pedway.

    This would tie in nicely. It would also be more likely to happen as single purpose condo towers typically would not want the confusion and security issues of a public pedway access but the presumably multi-purpose podium and hotel area of this development would be a much more appropriate "node" on a pedway system.

    I hope there is strong support for this notion - would really help tie things together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
    Especially since the leg from "Manulife 2" to Enbridge Place is (and has always been) a very dead end, unused leg of what presumably should be a pedway system that grows with the city. Well, 104 Street has grown particularly strongly and there's no access by pedway.
    Sure there is. The downtown pedway system includes underground pedways -- you can walk from, say, Manulife to 104th Street without needing to step outside. You just need to walk through the Bay LRT station at Enterprise Square, then pop out right in front of Devine Wines on 104th Street.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Sure there is. The downtown pedway system includes underground pedways -- you can walk from, say, Manulife to 104th Street without needing to step outside. You just need to walk through the Bay LRT station at Enterprise Square, then pop out right in front of Devine Wines on 104th Street.
    Sure there is. But you know it's quite convoluted, requires several changes of level [a real deterrent to pedway usage], doesn't easily connect to Rogers/ICE (and most of the growing pedway which is two levels up) and that many people are leery about underground pedways.

    Anyway, my point was that there is a leg of that preferred +15 pedway, well connected into Rogers/ICE/ECC/etc, just a half block away from 104 st BUT is currently a dead end.

    You don't think that's a great opportunity ?
    Last edited by Big Bird; 24-08-2018 at 01:15 PM.

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    An above-ground pedway from Enbridge 2 is nice but that may require a rethink of the interior building plan in Manulife 2 - their pedway is an empty, sunless and soulless rat maze.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It'll definitely add to the feeling of being on the floor of an urban canyon...
    Good point, with Enbridge plaza, Encore coming up and this proposal; there will be a dramatic reduction in sunlight on the street. They should keep the FAR capped at 10 (HA-Heritage Zone) to keep the tower short or skinny. This will sadly block the only sunny spot on the street: https://goo.gl/maps/VpnCzeVUQWt
    Last edited by bolo; 24-08-2018 at 02:16 PM.

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    Ya we better stop building high rises in downtown Edmonton, we are starting to block out the sunlight. Sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    An above-ground pedway from Enbridge 2 is nice but that may require a rethink of the interior building plan in Manulife 2 - their pedway is an empty, sunless and soulless rat maze.
    Don't forget that IanO and the DBA are fighting to keep it that way.

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    How so?

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    Lobbying against the new provincial lab at South Campus. They want DynaLab to stay in Manulife 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It'll definitely add to the feeling of being on the floor of an urban canyon...
    Good point, with Enbridge plaza, Encore coming up and this proposal; there will be a dramatic reduction in sunlight on the street. They should keep the FAR capped at 10 (HA-Heritage Zone) to keep the tower short or skinny. This will sadly block the only sunny spot on the street: https://goo.gl/maps/VpnCzeVUQWt

    What sunlight on the street? The buildings on the east side average 4 floors throughout that street; they block sunlight already.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bolo View Post
    This will sadly block the only sunny spot on the street
    What sunlight on the street? The buildings on the east side average 4 floors throughout that street; they block sunlight already.
    Not true, as Bolo notes, this is one sunny spot on the street... half is Blue Plate bldg 2 storey and half is parking lot 0 storey - 3 Storey podium/34 storey tower would block a lot of that. When I first heard about this and thought of it across from Icon II, I thought canyon or something from LOTR...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bolo View Post
    This will sadly block the only sunny spot on the street
    What sunlight on the street? The buildings on the east side average 4 floors throughout that street; they block sunlight already.
    Not true, as Bolo notes, this is one sunny spot on the street... half is Blue Plate bldg 2 storey and half is parking lot 0 storey - 3 Storey podium/34 storey tower would block a lot of that. When I first heard about this and thought of it across from Icon II, I thought canyon or something from LOTR...
    ..or downtown Calgary

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    Oh oh better call them and have them cancel this project right away. These tall buildings will block our sunlight. Can’t have any of that (in the downtown of a city of 1,000,000 people and 1.45m metro and 2m service area population) now can we. Maybe it’s time some of you move to Beaumont....or Wetaskiwin. Or the quarters, plenty of sunlight there. Pitch a tent, I hear that’s the latest trend in Vancouver. 😝

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    ^ very simplistic, black or white thinking...

    A well designed downtown can have both density and some areas of sunlight - with the current projects underway and on the drawing board/application path we already have significantly improved density. Healy for example or even the Langham Falcon bring residential density to more vacant, poorly used areas and spread out the livable downtown. Leaving a little sunlight for the 104 Street market doesn't strike me as Luddite thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
    ^ very simplistic, black or white thinking...

    A well designed downtown can have both density and some areas of sunlight - with the current projects underway and on the drawing board/application path we already have significantly improved density. Healy for example or even the Langham Falcon bring residential density to more vacant, poorly used areas and spread out the livable downtown. Leaving a little sunlight for the 104 Street market doesn't strike me as Luddite thinking.
    The problem with the immediate core in any city that has some form of structure densitiy is that, if it grows. It runs out of real estate and they cant maintain that balance. It is manageable in our city due to decades of neglect. Places like Hong kong, Tokyo, or NYC would not be logical for where a plot of land is available for constructing is like winning a lottery. In the very heart of the core people CANT have the cake and eat it all; we should expect that outcome as a starter. The only way to eat the cake is $$$$. That allows you the elevation which affords sunlight and veey few - if at all - impeding obstacles.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    What’s parkade/hotel parking access going to look like? The alley T’s at Tzin (south) and street level LRT to the north. Any opinions on how hotel traffic will increase cars on the street?

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    ^It's smack dab in the middle of downtown, traffic will be busy. As it is today, tomorrow and the day after that and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    ^It's smack dab in the middle of downtown, traffic will be busy. As it is today, tomorrow and the day after that and so on.
    Gotta say - as someone that lives in the core - I don't find "through" traffic on 104th any kind of issue. I suppose the entrance to the hotel for drop offs need some thought ... as to parkade entrance I am guessing the alley and there is nothing wrong with that.

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    Interesting location. Not one that i expected anytime soon.

    but im all for it!

    ++++++++++++++

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    ^It's smack dab in the middle of downtown, traffic will be busy. As it is today, tomorrow and the day after that and so on.
    Not many hotels have the street in front closed for the bulk of the day every Saturday during the summer. The alley near Tzin is also closed during market and over the next (how many) years will West LRT close the N-S alley at 102 Ave for construction, creating access problems previously discussed here but which could be massively exacerbated by this additional hotel+condo - both during constr of the project and subsequently. It would be a better project done 10 years from now when the LRT infrastructure is completed thru downtown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    ^It's smack dab in the middle of downtown, traffic will be busy. As it is today, tomorrow and the day after that and so on.
    Not many hotels have the street in front closed for the bulk of the day every Saturday during the summer. The alley near Tzin is also closed during market and over the next (how many) years will West LRT close the N-S alley at 102 Ave for construction, creating access problems previously discussed here but which could be massively exacerbated by this additional hotel+condo - both during constr of the project and subsequently. It would be a better project done 10 years from now when the LRT infrastructure is completed thru downtown.
    Just surmising here, but do you think the downtown market will stay on 104st once the LRT runs through the middle of it? I expect to see it move, probably to the ICE district plaza once it's completed.

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    The farmers market won't move there unless the city gives Katz the money he wants for public washrooms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rduchene View Post
    Just surmising here, but do you think the downtown market will stay on 104st once the LRT runs through the middle of it? I expect to see it move, probably to the ICE district plaza once it's completed.
    Yes, it's going to be a challenge one way or another... in one way, LRT completed down 102 might encourage the market to expand N&S as well as still using the one driving lane along 102 because having more nearby LRT access would in one sense be a plus. Also, ICE district plaza is not nearly as big as the original renderings made it look and the long, somewhat narrow form of a street is just about perfect for double-sided booths.

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    Why not just move the farmer's market up one block, so it's situated between 102 and 104 Ave? Would be disappointed to see it move to the arena plaza.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

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    The market has a number of places that it could move to within the immediate vicinity. I am not worried about that.

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    The Quarters is looking for life and there is a LOT of room and some ports potty's already there.

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    Too far east. One of the reasons the market is so successful is that you can go to it, but also many other little shops, restaurants etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Too far east. One of the reasons the market is so successful is that you can go to it, but also many other little shops, restaurants etc.
    I know. But it would be good to have a permanent location that is central and north of the river. Using City Hall not a good vibe and is sterile.

  68. #68

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    Possibly, I guess I'm thinking too far ahead. With LRT construction along 102 and this building (possibly) going up, it would make 104st a mess.

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    Maybe South of Jasper on 104th or wrap around on the Westbound lanes on asper Avenue and include use of Beaverhill Park which is due for a revamp. Hopefully the new Central Park will be designed with pathways wide to accommodate market stalls and bathrooms just like St. Albert have along the roads and park. The LRT is going to be disruptive long term on 102 Avenue and there is a need for a long term plan. And it would be a pity to have to start fencing off the track areas simply because some kid wanders and gets hurt crossing 102 Ave because the market is split up.

  70. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
    ^ very simplistic, black or white thinking...

    A well designed downtown can have both density and some areas of sunlight - with the current projects underway and on the drawing board/application path we already have significantly improved density. Healy for example or even the Langham Falcon bring residential density to more vacant, poorly used areas and spread out the livable downtown. Leaving a little sunlight for the 104 Street market doesn't strike me as Luddite thinking.
    I think the issue is really exacerbated by the fact they are looking for a significantly higher massing (floor area ratio) than what's normally allowed in the area. So they are looking to build tall and wide.

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    "the fact they are looking for a significantly higher massing (floor area ratio) than what's normally allowed in the area"

    This project will be 165 units in 34 storeys at 112m. Ultima is 169 units in 32 storeys and 108m. Pretty similar and both have a 3 story podium.

    Originally Posted by Channing on Ultima Thread:
    "Floors 4-8 have 9 units per floor. From 719sqft to 1023sqft. These floors (well 5- have shared balconies on the N/S side for 4 of the 9 units. That's if for shared balconies. Floor 9 has 5 units, and an amenities room. 10-27 has 6 units, from 600sqft to 915sqft. 28, 29 and 30 are three units per floor, and 2 of the 30th floor units have a second floor."
    "29 storey residential tower on top of 3 storey podium. 32 storeys. 108m in height."
    Last edited by EdmTrekker; 27-08-2018 at 10:12 AM.

  72. #72

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    This is absolutely mental, and would be a fiasco on par with the Bank of Montreal debacle. I cannot wrap my head around why in a downtown covered in vast, desolate swathes of surface parking we're demolishing some of the very few high-quality buildings we have in this city. Makes absolutely zero sense. This is not progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleppers View Post
    This is absolutely mental, and would be a fiasco on par with the Bank of Montreal debacle. I cannot wrap my head around why in a downtown covered in vast, desolate swathes of surface parking we're demolishing some of the very few high-quality buildings we have in this city. Makes absolutely zero sense. This is not progress.
    Obviously the developer and hotel felt that this location is best for them - and bought the vacant lot and building. That IS progress. Many of the vacant lots come with gouger pricing - why would you expect or are you demanding that they purchase lots with higher prices in a less desirable location?? Thank goodness your not spending my money.

  74. #74

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    I can confirm that in discussing this project with Dialog, Urban Capital identified that they wanted to be on 104 Street for their first project.

    Again, not sure the Blue Plate Diner property is historic, and it really will be one of the only locations on the east side of the street that can be redeveloped for a tower without demolishing a significant historic property.
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  75. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by rduchene View Post
    Just surmising here, but do you think the downtown market will stay on 104st once the LRT runs through the middle of it? I expect to see it move, probably to the ICE district plaza once it's completed.
    Unlikely. There is a certain something to having a market on 104 Street, the LRV is not an insurmountable challenge - drive slower, and stop at the intersection to let people on and off. The east-bound lane can be used for market stalls for example.

    If for some reason the City Market did move I imagine someone else will just opening another market on 104 Street to replace it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleppers View Post
    This is absolutely mental, and would be a fiasco on par with the Bank of Montreal debacle. I cannot wrap my head around why in a downtown covered in vast, desolate swathes of surface parking we're demolishing some of the very few high-quality buildings we have in this city. Makes absolutely zero sense. This is not progress.
    Because this is the LAND that they OWN. There are plenty of land owners that have no problem owning a gravel parking lot and the only way they'll sell is for an astronomical amount.

  77. #77

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    Land they own because they bought it.

    I'm totally fine with this development but that they own the land doesn't make them special or free from criticism. If anything the city needs to stop granting excess FAR so freely - then those parking lots would only be valued based on what you're actually allowed to build on them, not based on what some people think you could probably get the city to allow.
    There can only be one.

  78. #78

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    Bottom line, I hope BPD is aware (more than us) to the possibilities that they may be out of a space and are looking (ahem, Fox 2 has space) for a new location.

  79. #79

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    ^I'm hoping to talk to John in the next while, they may already have alternative plans, or plans to move on. I don't want to assume they're SOL.
    www.decl.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Land they own because they bought it.

    I'm totally fine with this development but that they own the land doesn't make them special or free from criticism. If anything the city needs to stop granting excess FAR so freely - then those parking lots would only be valued based on what you're actually allowed to build on them, not based on what some people think you could probably get the city to allow.
    'Excess' FAR? So you obviously know that these projects are simply asking for this FAR to pad their profits? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. At the end of the day it's a balance between achieving a fair return given the risk you take on to develop the project. The bigger the project, the bigger the risk with the 'hopes' for bigger profits at the end of the day. I can tell you from someone who works on 'risky' projects that bigger profits are not always the result.

  81. #81

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    Is this the same lot that where Melcor had that nice 5-6 story building proposed?

    I know there’s two lots on the east side of 104th between Jasper/102 that could be developed, I just can’t find that old Melcor thread.

  82. #82
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    No, that is to the South of the building w/ Blue Plate at 10133, I believe. Thread here: http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...ighlight=10133

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    quite liked that Melcor proposal, reminded me of this building facing Union Square in NYC, farmer's market and all... oops, I derailed...sorry

    https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7356...7i16384!8i8192

  84. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    The farmers market won't move there unless the city gives Katz the money he wants for public washrooms.
    Get a life FFS.

  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Land they own because they bought it.

    I'm totally fine with this development but that they own the land doesn't make them special or free from criticism. If anything the city needs to stop granting excess FAR so freely - then those parking lots would only be valued based on what you're actually allowed to build on them, not based on what some people think you could probably get the city to allow.
    'Excess' FAR? So you obviously know that these projects are simply asking for this FAR to pad their profits? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. At the end of the day it's a balance between achieving a fair return given the risk you take on to develop the project. The bigger the project, the bigger the risk with the 'hopes' for bigger profits at the end of the day. I can tell you from someone who works on 'risky' projects that bigger profits are not always the result.
    FAR that exceeds zoning is excess FAR pretty much by definition. I don’t know for sure that this project is asking for extra FAR although if it isn’t it will be a very thin tower; zoning is 10 and they will use almost 3 on the podium.

    Good for you and others who take on risky projects, I have respect for that, but that’s not what I’m talking about. What has been happening is the city is creating risk by inconsistently granting significant up-zoning. It’s a risk because you sometimes get burned and son’t Get your redone, it’s an extra cost you have to bear because the land seller will try to price for the max possible the maybe could get approved there, not necessarily on what your zoning is.

    If they indeed are planning to build more than they’re allowed as-of-right then I wish the city would refuse to grant it by fiat and would instead make them buy it from a neighbour, allowing the owner of a heritage building to divest the building right they have but we don’t want them to use.
    There can only be one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^I'm hoping to talk to John in the next while, they may already have alternative plans, or plans to move on. I don't want to assume they're SOL.
    Took him for coffee last week. They are letting everything soak in and will evaluate their options. Their current landlord has a variety of other options available, but they know that there is no rush as this will be a 1.5-2 year (min) plan before anything starts touching dirt.
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    In this project there is NO heritage building. Case closed.

  88. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Messiah View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    The farmers market won't move there unless the city gives Katz the money he wants for public washrooms.
    Get a life FFS.
    Yeah, nothing to see here.

    Katz Group seeks millions of dollars from city for Ice District plaza
    Edmonton officials will start talking with the Katz Group about potential city funding for the Ice District plaza after a tense in-private debate Wednesday at city council.

    ELISE STOLTE Updated: June 28, 2018

    Edmonton officials will start talking with the Katz Group about potential city funding for the Ice District plaza after a tense in-private debate Wednesday at city council.

    The debate at the closed-door meeting ended with a public 9-4 vote in favour of at least talking with the Katz Group about its multimillion-dollar pitch.

    Multiple sources speaking on background said the Katz Group started with a $10 million ask, but city officials said they could only see $2 million to $3 million that would qualify for consideration.

    City officials brought the matter to elected officials in private, asking if council wanted them to start negotiating with the developer.

    Edmonton could pay for public washrooms and electrical upgrades to allow outdoor concerts to be hosted easily.

    https://edmontonjournal.com/business...district-plaza

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    I see this proposal intends to seek a FAR of 16.75 with a zoning of DC2. Just for interest sake and my own education, is there a cap on the FAR attached to certain zones? I looked at the zoning bylaws on line but couldn't find this information. A FAR of 16.75 averaged over 33 stories indicates a building footprint around 1/2 the lot size, (of course I expect the podium footprint to be much larger).

  90. #90

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    ^Yes, the existing HA zone in that block has a FAR of 10.0 and a height limit of 115m. This is why they're applying for a Direct Control (DC2).

    https://webdocs.edmonton.ca/zoningby..._Area_Zone.htm

    So the issue for City Council, Planning, etc to look at is the density.
    www.decl.org

  91. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    In this project there is NO heritage building. Case closed.
    the heritage buildings that I'm talking about would be the other buildings on this block, the 6-story warehouse lofts or the Birks building. Those landowners should be able to sell their unneeded zoned floor space to the developer of this tower. That would both ensure that the whole block would remain below the 10FAR threshold and it would reward owners who maintain their smaller heritage buildings at no cost to the public.
    There can only be one.

  92. #92

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    ^Unfortunately our zoning bylaw isn't that sophisticated at this point. There is no mechanism for this, I'm not even sure if the MGA would allow it or not. Basically City Council regulates zoning and is the decider of new property rights nor not.
    www.decl.org

  93. #93

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    I know.

    I only know that it works in NYC and that it's more compatible with property rights and good governance than our current model.
    There can only be one.

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    ^but the FAR for DC2 zoning can be whatever the developer can convince the powers-that-be to allow? So in this case, once the podium sqft is taken into account, the tower portion will be less than 1/2 the lot size? I'm I getting that correct?

  95. #95

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    ^Yes. It is why proper planning rationale for their proposal is important, as well as stakeholder feedback being considered during the process. Ultimately City Council decides what gets approved and what doesn't. It's one of their most important jobs, arguably the most important thing they do, as local elected officials.
    www.decl.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Land they own because they bought it.

    I'm totally fine with this development but that they own the land doesn't make them special or free from criticism. If anything the city needs to stop granting excess FAR so freely - then those parking lots would only be valued based on what you're actually allowed to build on them, not based on what some people think you could probably get the city to allow.
    'Excess' FAR? So you obviously know that these projects are simply asking for this FAR to pad their profits? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. At the end of the day it's a balance between achieving a fair return given the risk you take on to develop the project. The bigger the project, the bigger the risk with the 'hopes' for bigger profits at the end of the day. I can tell you from someone who works on 'risky' projects that bigger profits are not always the result.
    FAR that exceeds zoning is excess FAR pretty much by definition. I don’t know for sure that this project is asking for extra FAR although if it isn’t it will be a very thin tower; zoning is 10 and they will use almost 3 on the podium.

    Good for you and others who take on risky projects, I have respect for that, but that’s not what I’m talking about. What has been happening is the city is creating risk by inconsistently granting significant up-zoning. It’s a risk because you sometimes get burned and son’t Get your redone, it’s an extra cost you have to bear because the land seller will try to price for the max possible the maybe could get approved there, not necessarily on what your zoning is.

    If they indeed are planning to build more than they’re allowed as-of-right then I wish the city would refuse to grant it by fiat and would instead make them buy it from a neighbour, allowing the owner of a heritage building to divest the building right they have but we don’t want them to use.
    A high FAR is only good if you a. develop it or b. are able to sell it for a higher price. Given that there are numerous DC zones with high FAR's that remain undeveloped/unsold shows that there isn't that big of a market willing to pay for the additional density. Most developers don't want to inherit all of the other 'regulations' that come along with buying an existing DC zone. This is why we've seen developers go through the time and cost to rezone sites they plan to develop themselves such as the Maclaren, versus buying an existing DC zoned site. So those who have high hopes of 'flipping' their land for a higher price because they have an FAR of 15 can sit there any wait...and wait...and wait.

  97. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bleppers View Post
    This is absolutely mental, and would be a fiasco on par with the Bank of Montreal debacle. I cannot wrap my head around why in a downtown covered in vast, desolate swathes of surface parking we're demolishing some of the very few high-quality buildings we have in this city. Makes absolutely zero sense. This is not progress.
    Because this is the LAND that they OWN. There are plenty of land owners that have no problem owning a gravel parking lot and the only way they'll sell is for an astronomical amount.
    I guess that's the reality and they will do what they wish with their land. But it's a shame that, at this stage of the game, instead of adding a tower to underdeveloped areas in the warehouse district, they are trying to cram a tower in the middle of a bunch of other towers; and also make it as big as possible. The sightlines for both hotel guests and residents will be looking into Encore, Enbridge Plaza, Icon 1 and Icon 2 and vice versa. It will feel very crowded. It would be better to keep the east side of 104th street at the 5 story limit and under for space and consistency. This tower will interrupt and overshadow the flow of historic buildings.

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    Looking at the location as seen from the drone view posted on the new Falcon website you can imagine the impact will have looking at and along 104th Street. Falcon Tower 1 will be a similar height as the new condo/hotel development.



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    Add Tower B and the new 33 story job for 104 on the promenade - be quite the view!
    ... gobsmacked

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    Add Tower B and the new 33 story job for 104 on the promenade - be quite the view!
    In the view from the photo below only the very top 3-4 floors of Tower B may be visible.

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