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Thread: Edmonton flood risks?

  1. #1
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    Default Edmonton flood risks?

    Given what is happening down south, what are the flood risks here in Edmonton?

    Thankfully most of the city lives above the river.

    However, I could see the following potentially being damaged by overflowing rivers:
    - Hawrelak Park
    - Fort Edmonton Park
    - Mill Creek pool
    - Kinsman
    - Louise McKinney Park
    - Edmonton Queen
    - Walterdale Bridge - old for sure, new?
    - Low Level Bridge
    - Dawson Bridge
    - Rossdale neighborhood
    - Riverdale neighborhood
    - Royal Glenora Club
    - River Valley Road
    - river valley bike trails
    - Talus sculpture (I'm sure many of you wish)
    - Muttart Conservatory
    - Menzies LRT bridge
    - pedestrian bridges near McKinney and Hawrelak parks
    - Groat Bridge
    - Groat Road
    - McKinnon ravine
    - McKenzie ravine
    - Victoria Park and golf course
    - Mayfair golf course
    - Riverside golf course
    - Cloverdale neighborhood
    - Rundle Park
    - Telus Field
    - Rossdale plant
    - Terwillegar Park

    anything else?
    Last edited by Sonic Death Monkey; 21-06-2013 at 07:17 PM.
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    Lavigne area below Saskatchewan Drive possibly.

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    Part of Riverdale, the Brickyard neighbourhood has struck me as being a bit odd, having a newly developed area not far above the river line. I know there's a bit of a berm by the trail, but it still seems awfully close to the water line. I hope the people living there have good flood insurance.

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    The North Sask River and the Bow are a bit different. we have a couple hundred more km of flood plains and such... unlike Calgary which sits right at the base of the mountains.
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    North Sask. is also dammed over by the glacier.
    $2.00 $2.25 $2.50 $2.75 $2.85 $3.00 $3.20 $3.25

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    There is no such thing as 'good flood insurance' if it's coming in from the river, from what I understand. Only if it's a sewer backup
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    Edmonton has the advantage over Calgary that it's mostly well above river level. Calgary has its downtown located in what looks like a giant soup bowl (if you look at it from the Franklin C-Train station you will see what I mean).

    Eve

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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    Edmonton has the advantage over Calgary that it's mostly well above river level. Calgary has its downtown located in what looks like a giant soup bowl (if you look at it from the Franklin C-Train station you will see what I mean).

    Eve
    IIRC, the original settlement of Calgary was on the north side of the Bow, because the speculators thought the railway would go on that side, but moved when the railway went on the south side.

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    ^ Calgary did live with it's head in the sand..... as did the province.

    Alberta has done nearly NOTHING in terms of natural disaster preparedness and all of Alberta, like many places, has allowed development on some of the most absurd places.
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    Calgary has the mountains close by. Heavy snowfall in winter, a quick melt down and then excess rain on top of that. Well, anything downstream of the mountains is going to get hit.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    ^ don't forget that the North Saskatchewan and many of its tributary rivers also originate in the mountains.
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    ^I do but we are not so close to the mountains as Calgary is. Most houses in Edmonton are set back from the river. There is more chance a house will fall into the river due to soil erosion rather than the river cresting and sweeping it away. And, like someone said, different geographical land mass.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    The river valley had major floods before the Bighorn Dam was built.

    "Right from Edmontons early days, the North Saskatchewan River has had its say. Every few years, the river has risen and leapt its banks, flooding in a new way of thinking and changing the course of development and use in the valley.

    Its 90 years this month that the river rose 12 metres above its normal level, scouring the valley communities of Walterdale, Rossdale, Cloverdale and Riverdale. The great flood of June 1915 turned streets into rivers, submerging neighbourhoods with nearly a metre of water. The water was so high and moving so fast that a Canadian National Railways coal train was parked on the Low Level Bridge to hold it secure against the tremendous weight of the torrent of water."

    http://www.rewedmonton.ca/content_view2?CONTENT_ID=1072

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    Im in Beverly. Im 100% in the clear if **** goes down haha. Unless the water jumps 300 feet
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    I'm well above any floods in Beverly as well. I pity the folks that bought in the valley. See Canmore......
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    Edmonton could still get bad floods, even with the Bighorn Dam, which was built in 1972. Remember the summer of 1986? That was the worst flooding since 1915.
    Is there hope for Edmonton? Yes!!! The Oilers? Wait and see.

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    In 1986 the N Saskatchewan river was the highest I ever saw, 98 avenue in Cloverdale was under water as was the road that runs along the river on the east side of Riverdale.

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    An article about the July 19, 1986 Edmonton flood: http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=...b-ef69c4f01a4a

    Conditions very similar to what Calgary is experiencing right now. Previous rain storms had filled upstream reservoirs. Followed by heavy upslope rains in the Brazeau and North Saskatchewan River basins. No choice but to release the water from the reservoirs creating major flooding downstream including in Edmonton's river valley communities. No reason this type of weather event couldn't be repeated.

    One major difference between Edmonton and Calgary is we only have a few neighbourhoods (Riverdale, Cloverdale, Rossdale and Lavigne) located in the river valley. And our Downtown is on top of the bank not in the valley like Calgary's.

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    ^ That is the crucial difference. The article you quote talks of "hundreds" fleeing. But our important infrastructure (downtown, postsecondary, major highrise developments, etc.) are all well above the high river water level.

    I was in Calgary in 1995 but that was nothing like what is happening now. Some low lying residential got hit (as it would do in Edmonton) but at least the downtown area was left alone.

    People in Calgary had to be evacuated from high rise housing and, although their homes are in good shape, the buildings at a minimum need cleaning. But the biggest effect is to get the downtown cleaned up so that the people can get back to work in those towers some of which had their parkades flooded. Also, unlike Edmonton, a huge percentage of Calgarians work in central areas. (I read 250,000 today).

    But Calgarians are tough. The biggest messes will get cleaned up enough to get back to functional soon. The legacy in some neighborhoods (there's one I'm worried about) could go on for years.

    Eve

  20. #20

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    If flooding were to happen and your home is damaged by it, please don't call your insurance companies as they do NOT cover floods.


    But, if someone with civil authority forces you to evacuate? Go to a hotel, and save your receipts and your insurance company will reimburse you. Remember though, you are charged a deductible for using this coverage, so make sure you have spent more that your deductible on hotel and meals, otherwise, you're wasting your time calling your insurance company first.

    Luckily, as this was a state of emergency, the City of Calgary will like offer disaster relief funds.

    Also, if Sewer Backup were to occur due to the flood, that is also not covered.


    My insurance company received hundreds of calls from Calgary due to the flood and all claims were denied.

    Trust me, if you file a claim and you're denied? That will affect your insurance premiums or depending on whether you have filed several claims before, your insurance company may cancel your insurance due to too many occurrences.

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    ^.......................like a good neighbor Statefarm is there....................
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    ... all of Alberta, like many places, has allowed development on some of the most absurd places.
    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    The legacy in some neighborhoods (there's one I'm worried about) could go on for years.
    Perhaps the legacy should be turning them into parks so the next flood doesn't cause so much damage.

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    ^Not realistic in Calgary's case with dozens of neighbourhoods and the downtown itself located on the flood plains of the Bow and Elbow Rivers. Much of the most expensive real estate in Calgary is located in the flood plain. Those who can afford it want to live near the rivers, except when they flood. With two major floods in the past decade, I'm guessing some of the existing berms (like those along Memorial Drive) will be raised in height.

    Edmonton also needs to review its flood defences. Parts of Riverdale, Cloverdale and Rossdale are vulnerable to flooding from a similar weather system as hit the South Saskatchewan River basin this past week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadzia2000 View Post
    If flooding were to happen and your home is damaged by it, please don't call your insurance companies as they do NOT cover floods.


    But, if someone with civil authority forces you to evacuate? Go to a hotel, and save your receipts and your insurance company will reimburse you. Remember though, you are charged a deductible for using this coverage, so make sure you have spent more that your deductible on hotel and meals, otherwise, you're wasting your time calling your insurance company first.

    Luckily, as this was a state of emergency, the City of Calgary will like offer disaster relief funds.

    Also, if Sewer Backup were to occur due to the flood, that is also not covered.


    My insurance company received hundreds of calls from Calgary due to the flood and all claims were denied.

    Trust me, if you file a claim and you're denied? That will affect your insurance premiums or depending on whether you have filed several claims before, your insurance company may cancel your insurance due to too many occurrences.
    Partially right

    If the water comes in via a pipe including your drain, you may be covered. Check your policy, it is a contract and is legally binding. I was flooded in Beaumont back in the 90`s along with 150 other houses. I was on national TV with 20`of water that flooded in from an over taxed storm water system. Take pictures of water coming in via the drains and you have proof. Even if it comes in via the windows later, you are covered.

    Also, DO NOT USE the insurance supplied restoration contractor except for the basic clean up. These contractors often do the cheapest job possible. For the reconstruction, get three bids and choose the best, you are often not required to use the lowest bidder unless it says so in the policy. I had the worst insurance adjuster who had no idea what they were talking about and the insurance company`s third rate contractor. I fired the contractor and then fired the insurance adjuster. That`s right, fired the adjuster. You can do that. I had a public adjuster come in, took one look at the mess that they did and siad that all the work that they did was coming out, the basement recleaned and all redone above code. That is because my original basement was done above code and had to be restored to the same condition, not just the minimum. Remember it is your house and you don`t have to choose the lowest bidder.
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  25. #25

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    Flood of 1915



    All the areas in the FLOOD PLAIN can be flooded again. The dams reduce the risk but if the dams are overloaded, excessive rainfall, log jams or ice jams during spring breakup can happen again. With the extreme weather that is more common, it will happen again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    ^Not realistic in Calgary's case with dozens of neighbourhoods and the downtown itself located on the flood plains of the Bow and Elbow Rivers. Much of the most expensive real estate in Calgary is located in the flood plain. Those who can afford it want to live near the rivers, except when they flood. With two major floods in the past decade, I'm guessing some of the existing berms (like those along Memorial Drive) will be raised in height.

    Edmonton also needs to review its flood defences. Parts of Riverdale, Cloverdale and Rossdale are vulnerable to flooding from a similar weather system as hit the South Saskatchewan River basin this past week.
    Moving downtown Calgary is not a realistic option, and I am not suggesting demolishing every house with a flooded basement. However, any house or other small building that will need to be demolished due to substantial upper floor flood damage should not be rebuilt. Property owners in these areas should be offered a fair price for their land in addition to any disaster relief compensation, but they should not be permitted to rebuild in the floodplain.

    We need to apply the same policy here the next time there is a major flood on the North Saskatchewan.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jadzia2000 View Post
    If flooding were to happen and your home is damaged by it, please don't call your insurance companies as they do NOT cover floods.


    But, if someone with civil authority forces you to evacuate? Go to a hotel, and save your receipts and your insurance company will reimburse you. Remember though, you are charged a deductible for using this coverage, so make sure you have spent more that your deductible on hotel and meals, otherwise, you're wasting your time calling your insurance company first.

    Luckily, as this was a state of emergency, the City of Calgary will like offer disaster relief funds.

    Also, if Sewer Backup were to occur due to the flood, that is also not covered.


    My insurance company received hundreds of calls from Calgary due to the flood and all claims were denied.

    Trust me, if you file a claim and you're denied? That will affect your insurance premiums or depending on whether you have filed several claims before, your insurance company may cancel your insurance due to too many occurrences.
    Partially right

    If the water comes in via a pipe including your drain, you may be covered. Check your policy, it is a contract and is legally binding. I was flooded in Beaumont back in the 90`s along with 150 other houses. I was on national TV with 20`of water that flooded in from an over taxed storm water system. Take pictures of water coming in via the drains and you have proof. Even if it comes in via the windows later, you are covered.

    Also, DO NOT USE the insurance supplied restoration contractor except for the basic clean up. These contractors often do the cheapest job possible. For the reconstruction, get three bids and choose the best, you are often not required to use the lowest bidder unless it says so in the policy. I had the worst insurance adjuster who had no idea what they were talking about and the insurance company`s third rate contractor. I fired the contractor and then fired the insurance adjuster. That`s right, fired the adjuster. You can do that. I had a public adjuster come in, took one look at the mess that they did and siad that all the work that they did was coming out, the basement recleaned and all redone above code. That is because my original basement was done above code and had to be restored to the same condition, not just the minimum. Remember it is your house and you don`t have to choose the lowest bidder.
    "May be covered" is not the same as covered.

    Remember the proximate cause rule.

    Why did the water rupture through the pipe into your home?

    Also remember that due to the nature of the damage, it would be difficult for an insurance company to deny coverage because of a general exclusion and still cover a portion of it.

    Not all insurance companies have the same declarations. If your policy covers ruptured pipe resulting from flood damage, then consider yourself lucky.

    If you can determine that the ruptured pipe had nothing to do with the "flood", then yes, the resulting damage is covered.

    Otherwise, you're pretty much SOL.

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    So as of saturday afternoon a bunch of the low-lying gravel trails are underwater.



    Other areas like Government House park, the mckinney riverwalk, and the Edmonton Queen dock probably have about a meter to go.




    I think right now we're probably about 1/2m below where we were in 2011.

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    So, if Edmonton gets flooded as much as Calgary did, will PM Harper come here as well?
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    Stopped at Whitemud park today. The creek that flows into the river is actually flowing back on itself near the mouth and is the highest I have ever seen. The river itself is high and fast with the shoreline at the park submerged. Lots of debris floating downstream (tree's etc).

    I think we are ok, a few low laying trails may get reorganized, but I think thats about it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Flood of 1915



    All the areas in the FLOOD PLAIN can be flooded again. The dams reduce the risk but if the dams are overloaded, excessive rainfall, log jams or ice jams during spring breakup can happen again. With the extreme weather that is more common, it will happen again.
    Obviously you can never say never, but Edmonton is definitely must more prepared than in 1915. If that exact same flood happened it most possibly would have less damage due to the upstream dams, as well as a better grading and drainage system. I'm sure there would still be flooding in some of the neighbourhoods, just possibly not as extensive. Anyway your cut it, the river is still the boss.

    Also the myth of flood insurance needs to end. Only drain backups can be covered, and that needs to be proven in a major flood situation like in Calgary.

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    It is looking like we will not reach the 1986 levels. But we will probably reach the 1972 levels.

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    Since the photos newfangled took above at 4:00 pm Saturday afternoon, the river has risen another 1.5 metres by 6:00 am this morning. See table here: http://environment.alberta.ca/apps/b...ionID=RNSASEDM

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    So, if Edmonton gets flooded as much as Calgary did, will PM Harper come here as well?
    That's a very ignorant suggestion, he didn't just go to Calgary re the current flooding (it would be same any PM from any party).

    Most of Calgary downtown is fine, just a small part of chinatown flooded, and up around stampede / beltline (including some new condo towers, like the Keynotes). Princes Island is a mess. The biggest issue is power, if a condo or office loses power it is evacuated (as fIre alarms don't work). The western (ie older) part of Calgary downtown is fine, but much of the cbd from about 4st SW east is without power. Quite a few buildings have flooding in lowest level of parkades through the drain systems as the water table is so high.

    I think its just a matter of time before Edmonton has something similar, but certainly the downtown is much safer as so high up relative to the river. If you buy a condo and have a choice, go for higher levels (above ground ideally) for condo parking lol, just in case of flood risk / drainage problems. I would hate to own a house on a flood plain, I can't imagine how terrible the smell and rot would be in all the basements from this type of event.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-06-2013 at 10:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BalancedOP View Post
    It is looking like we will not reach the 1986 levels. But we will probably reach the 1972 levels.
    Yup


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    So yes, Government House park, Mckinney, and the Edmonton Queen dock were underwater as of this morning.





    And for anyone who's been watching the construction at the walterdale, all of the work area the city has constructed at the bridge piers in underwater.


    Saturday afternoon vs Sunday morning



    Can't get flickr video to embed properly, so here are a few links:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/inthree...ns/9117156099/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/inthree...ns/9119379992/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/inthree...ns/9119389900/
    Last edited by newfangled; 23-06-2013 at 12:31 PM.

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    And 1972 just vanished:


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    Around 3 p.m. yesterday I drive in one of the strangest rainstorms to his central and near south central Edmonton. The side roads were filled with water supplemented with hail.

    Once I hit belgravia, the sky was cleared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    So yes, Government House park, Mckinney, and the Edmonton Queen dock were underwater as of this morning.





    And for anyone who's been watching the construction at the walterdale, all of the work area the city has constructed at the bridge piers in underwater.


    Saturday afternoon vs Sunday morning



    Can't get flickr video to embed properly, so here are a few links:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/inthree...ns/9117156099/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/inthree...ns/9119379992/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/inthree...ns/9119389900/
    Thanks for the pictures and video. One wonders about Mandel's plans for Rossdale redevelopment. the whole area is in a flood plain.
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    Whats going to happen to the Edmonton queen if it gets any higher will it beach itself onto land?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Thanks for the pictures and video. One wonders about Mandel's plans for Rossdale redevelopment. the whole area is in a flood plain.
    For what it's worth, I believe that East Rossdale, sections of Cloverdale, and sections of Riverdale (all of which are essentially fully built-out) would flood long before West Rossdale:

    http://www.envinfo.gov.ab.ca/FloodHazard/
    http://webdocs.edmonton.ca/zoningbylaw/fpo.pdf

    But any talk of a "touch-the-water" promenade needs to recognize that at least every 10 years or so (or in this case 2011 and 2013) the water will reach up to touch us right back.

    But based on the alberta environment numbers it looks like the water may have crested around sunday 3pm.

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    Thanks Newfangled for the excellent documents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmart81 View Post
    Also the myth of flood insurance needs to end. Only drain backups can be covered, and that needs to be proven in a major flood situation like in Calgary.
    The lack of flood insurance is what needs to end - home insurers should be forced to offer it. That way taxpayers would not be bailing out those who live in flood prone areas when the inevitable flooding happens. Premiums would have to reflect risk of course, and could easily exceed $10,000 annually inside a 100 year floodplain. The high insurance costs might actually provide a way of discouraging development in inappropriate locations.

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    That map is the equivalent of a crystal ball. Provincial government officials like Griffiths saying that what happened in Calgary was impossible to predict or "one in a thousand year" type of event are either incompetent or ignorant. Between that link and the report on the 2005 floods being shelved for 6 years with nothing done about it, to me this is the biggest political scandal in Alberta in decades.

    This wasn't a natural disaster. This was man made. Billions of dollars literally flushed down the river.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Calgary has the mountains close by. Heavy snowfall in winter, a quick melt down and then excess rain on top of that. Well, anything downstream of the mountains is going to get hit.
    Both the Bow River system and the North saskatchewan River system originate within a few dozen kilometers of each other in the Icefields of Banff and Jasper national park, they then travel they're seprate routes and join together in Eastern Saskatchewan so they are virtually the same river systems. Also the North Saskathewan travel further before it gets to Edmonton meaning that there are far more stream and smaller rivers adding flow to the North Saskatachewan than the Bow, one of the largest being the Brazeau which is why the Dam ( with large enough flows to generate I belive 330 Megawatts of Electricity) was built on that river and also the Big Horn on the North Saskatchewan. The major difference is both the depth of the river valley through each major city and Calgary's decision way back to develop its commercial district on the flood plain of the Bow whereas Edmonton Learned from 1915 and the commercial and high rise areas where developed on the top of the river bank.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    That map is the equivalent of a crystal ball. Provincial government officials like Griffiths saying that what happened in Calgary was impossible to predict or "one in a thousand year" type of event are either incompetent or ignorant. Between that link and the report on the 2005 floods being shelved for 6 years with nothing done about it, to me this is the biggest political scandal in Alberta in decades.

    This wasn't a natural disaster. This was man made. Billions of dollars literally flushed down the river.
    Totally agree. Mother Nature does not constrain herself to 100 year events or statistics. She will do as she wishes and combine several of her powers to really mess up humans and show that she is the boss.
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    Nailed it Marcel. Now we all get to pay for people who decided to live on a flood plain. It is not like we are living in Manitoba and pretty much have to live on a flood plain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jmart81 View Post
    Also the myth of flood insurance needs to end. Only drain backups can be covered, and that needs to be proven in a major flood situation like in Calgary.
    The lack of flood insurance is what needs to end - home insurers should be forced to offer it. That way taxpayers would not be bailing out those who live in flood prone areas when the inevitable flooding happens. Premiums would have to reflect risk of course, and could easily exceed $10,000 annually inside a 100 year floodplain. The high insurance costs might actually provide a way of discouraging development in inappropriate locations.
    You may be right, but until the cities learn to control the potential flood zones and keep the water tables low, then insurance companies will continue to refuse coverage.

    After this incident, flood insurance will never be offered.

    I work for an insurance company and at one time we offered seepage. Biggest mistake as it cost us millions forcing insurance rates to skyrocket.

    We got rid of that coverage inside a year.

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    I don't understand why an insurance company would refuse to offer coverage for anything, except possibly where there is an extremely high risk of fraud. They offer life insurance even though death is certain, so why not flood insurance in an area where flooding is nearly certain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I don't understand why an insurance company would refuse to offer coverage for anything, except possibly where there is an extremely high risk of fraud. They offer life insurance even though death is certain, so why not flood insurance in an area where flooding is nearly certain?
    They offer life insurance to healthy young people. The older you get and/or if you have any condition that will shorten your life, the more expensive it gets.

    Insurance systems are designed around paying for events that will be rare across the group of people that are paying in. Insuring against floods is hard because the only people who will get it are likely to all be affected at the same time and to have it happen relatively frequently. With life insurance it could be decades until they pay out any individual and it will only happen once.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    ^Except that you can still buy life insurance even if you are old - it will just cost you a lot more. An 80 year old might be estimated to have a 1% chance of dying in any given month, and will pay monthly premiums of about 1% of the policy payout value. Likewise, if a building is on the edge of a 100 year floodplain there is a 1% chance it will be flooded in any given year and the owner should expect a flood insurance premium of about 1% of insured value. If flooding is expected once every 20 years, the premium should be 5 times higher. This could easily make flood insurance unaffordable in such areas, but it should not be unavailable.

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    The problem is that it's not affordable to the insurance companies. Priced at levels where most people are willing to pay, the insurance company can't bring in enough capital to cover costs when such a flood happens. Priced high enough, then not enough people are willing to pay and the policies are still not viable.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  53. #53

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    Looking only at 1 in 100 year risks as they did in the study below isn't enough.

    Someday we may have the once in a 500 or 1,000 year flood. There may be no major preventative infrastructure measures capable of eliminating the risk but someone has to be thinking about it and analyzing the impact so maybe some simple measures could be put in place to minimize the threat to life and property and the response cost.

    2012 Calgary flood study foresaw June's devastation - Calgary - CBC News

    " "The increase in the area inundated was quite striking. The Centre Street area downtown, of course, and the area around 14th Street, the Bowness area, also as soon as you start to involve sewage treatment plants in the 1-in-100-year floodplain, that's a big concern,” Pomeroy said."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...tion-1.2458014



    .
    Last edited by KC; 10-12-2013 at 10:36 AM.

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    Given the depth of our valley and ravines, southern Alberta type floods are a risk, but not to the same degree here in Edmonton.

    Now, if you're talking ability to withstand downpours that might overwhelm our storm sewer system, then yes, we need to look at that.
    ... gobsmacked

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    To be honest if there was massive flash floods in the north sask the people that REALLY have to worry, besides the small amount of people IN the valley itself, are the ones built on top of the unstable top of the valley.

    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  56. #56

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    ^ any risk to water treatment plants?

    Overwhelmed storm sewers could result in what kind of worst case flooding, and where?

  57. #57

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    There is a water plant of some king down by the old power plant.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    Both our water treatment plants are in the valley - same as the Gold Bar waste water treatment facility.

    If they are overwhelmed - big trouble for the entire region, which is dependent on CoE water. Be tens of billions to re-engineer the entire system, so that's not going to happen.

    Should there be berms? Maybe - but they just move the problem downstream to someone else.

    Flash flooding from storms that overwhelm the storm water system already occur to some degree pretty much at least once every summer.

    If you get a protracted, heavy storm, you're looking at roads being washed out, homes, businesses being flooded - be nasty.

    Storm water ponds are mitigating this aready to some degree - as well as adding pretty green space in suburban communities - but yeah, could be nasty unless we get more in place.

    Btw, this is one of the real problems of urban sprawl - farmland which could hold some of the moisture gets paved over and 100% of the downfall ends up in the storm system leading into aging infrastructure not engineered to handle today's volumes..
    ... gobsmacked

  59. #59

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    So I'm talking the once in 500 to 1000 year risk. The studies looking at 1 in 100 year risk seem to ignore critical issues.

  60. #60

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    The studies that look at 1/100 year storms don't really recognize its far less than 1/100

    Please change that verbiage to "the new normal"
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    Dams, which hold the potential for tremendous downstream loss of life ontop of property damage should they fail are engineered to withstand (IIRC) a 1 in 10,000 year storm.

    But even then, there'd still be (in that instance) seriously damaging and life threatening releases to prevent a major breech.
    ... gobsmacked

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    The studies that look at 1/100 year storms don't really recognize its far less than 1/100

    Please change that verbiage to "the new normal"
    Or just use "bad luck storms" since we likely will never be able to predict how far away that rare event is unless they are part of a cycle that can be identified. "Worst case" doesn't even work.

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    Well the Southern Alberta Floods were a known entity. It wasn't the first nor the biggest to happen.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    The problem with having to plan for very very rare occurrences is that you might wind up not having any cities at all. And at great expense. Stuff occasionally happens and you have to deal with it.

    Eve

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    ^ right but lets define rare or unknown.

    Look at the Red River for example.. It will, from time to time, overflow. It's knowen, accepted and planned for.

    The Souther Alberta floods should have been the same way. The only thing truly amazing about them was it didn't happen sooner. (IMO)
    Lets also remember we had our "warning" 5-7 years ago I think.... Anyone know when mission flooded last. 2006-7? soooo....Boo on the province and towns for building in clearly questionable areas and boo on us for being complacent and not demanding action sooner.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    But the Red River floods almost every year due to the low slope, wide valley and the fact the river flows from the south to north where it can still be frozen. The problem comes in you have very rich soil that is very productive so you can't move the people out of the flood plain as in places it can be 17 miles wide, you also can't move a large city either.

    For the most part most Alberta rivers are nowhere near as bad as the Red River, we have made some short sighted decisions in allowing construction in flood plains which should have never happened.

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    ^ I mean FLOOD!! (1997)

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    Dams, which hold the potential for tremendous downstream loss of life ontop of property damage should they fail are engineered to withstand (IIRC) a 1 in 10,000 year storm.

    But even then, there'd still be (in that instance) seriously damaging and life threatening releases to prevent a major breech.
    and the whole problem with that 1 in 10,000 year storm assumption is that it is too easy to think that if we design to that we're safe for 9,999 years. that 1 in 10,000 year storm is just as likely to arrive next year, just a a 1 in 100 year storm is just as likely to arrive in 2014 as it is not to arrive until 2114. not only that, statistically, it is then still just as likely to arrive again in 2015 as it is not to arrive until 2115.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  69. #69

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    We likely can't build for the truly extreme situations, however we can think about it and avoid the odd thing that in such an event could turn a crisis into a total calamity. There may also be free options that could make a major difference.

    It's like choosing paint colours for your vehicle. Light vs dark paint. The choice doesn't seem to matter beyond care and maintenance and possible resale value - until you think of night time or winter visibility and the rare occasion that cost free colour choice might actually save your life. It's a free embedded option.

    One example of foresight might be our grid system for street layout. The benefits from that little decision in small town Edmonton may accrue for centuries and pay off in major unexpected ways too.
    Last edited by KC; 13-12-2013 at 05:54 PM.

  70. #70

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    Flood risk warning for Edmonton & west central Alberta.


    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...866/story.html
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    From earlier in the thread but worth linking to again for tomorrow:

    http://www.envinfo.gov.ab.ca/FloodHazard/

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  72. #72

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    Here is the current river conditions.
    Thankfully it is dropping but depending on the rain that will rise quite quickly as there is still snow in the upper basin area.

    http://www.environment.alberta.ca/ap...ionID=RNSASEDM

    http://www.environment.alberta.ca/ap...ionID=RNSASEDM

  73. #73

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    Lots of ice and debris back in the water this morning. I suspect someone opened up the gates yesterday to drain the reservoirs a bit before this big storm.

    Wonder how much of this is real or just precautionary after what occurred last year.

  74. #74

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    Homes that will float in/on a flood. Great idea. (Canadian designed too.)

    Maybe this could be applied here to various buildings (city support/infrastructure buildings, private residences and outbuildings, etc) etc. Maybe some product integrating spray foam for insulation could serve dual purposes.

    The amphibious homes that work with water to stay afloat in floods
    Anne Gulland, global health security correspondent
    4 SEPTEMBER 2018


    Elizabeth English, associate professor in the school of architecture at the University of Waterloo in Canada, has designed a system which has been retrofitted to four homes in the floating rice paddies of An Giang province.

    Here, houses are traditionally built on stilts to allow for the annual monsoon but this traditional form of defence has not always managed to withstand more extreme floods.

    Lengthening the stilts is not an option as that would make the homes less stable. Instead, Prof English’s amphibious system enables the homes to float.

    The system consists of three basic elements: buoyancy blocks underneath the house that provide flotation, vertical guideposts that keep the house in place, and a structural frame that ties everything together.
    ...”


    ... “The bigger and heavier the house the more stable it’s going to feel. ...

    Prof English first began thinking about flood-proof homes after Hurricane Katrina, which devastated parts of New Orleans in 2005. But planning regulations meant she was unable to test her ideas.



    “In the Netherlands, where around two thirds of the country is below sea level, floating homes are common. And in the UK,...”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/a...afloat-floods/


    As an aside: at our cabin we have a thick cable attached to our boathouse so high waters can’t take it away. (High water might float only long enough to sink it in deeper water.)
    Last edited by KC; 04-09-2018 at 09:51 AM.

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