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Thread: Edmonton Oilers 2018/19 Season

  1. #801
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    Ah, thanks James, I'd forgotten about Spooner's retention.

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    I think the two trades GM Gretzky has made are better returns than the ones Chiarelli has made.
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    Chia's last five:

    Wideman + 3rd round pick --> a few months of Alex Petrovic
    Drake Caggiula --> Brandon Manning
    6th round pick --> Wideman
    Strome --> Spooner
    Jerabek --> 6th round pick

    Basically only one fine trade in the bunch (cashing in Jerabek for a minor asset). Three of those trades could be fairly called very bad or worse.
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  4. #804
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    Looks like Puljujarvi isn’t dressed tonight. I wonder if he’ll be traded.
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    Hopefully sent to Bakersfield, I do not believe they will trade him.

  6. #806
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    I forgot all about the game. I didn't miss much.

    Well, there's 24 games left. Anything can happen but 1 W in 11 games? Uggh
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  7. #807
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Basically only one fine trade in the bunch (cashing in Jerabek for a minor asset). Three of those trades could be fairly called very bad or worse.
    His tenure with the Oilers will go down as one of the worst in the modern NHL. It's that bad.

  8. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I forgot all about the game. I didn't miss much.

    Well, there's 24 games left. Anything can happen but 1 W in 11 games? Uggh
    We forgot as well..I'm glad we weren't alone.

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    Just some thoughts: Too soon to tell but Gagner's better days are behind him. Band aid solution? Not sure of the details but did Gagner play last night?

    Gangner could be a game changer but most likely kind of like another Brodziak type deal. I think the Strome for Spooner is like trading the bad after the bad.
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    Can Dallas Eakins be far behind?
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  11. #811

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Just some thoughts: Too soon to tell but Gagner's better days are behind him. Band aid solution? Not sure of the details but did Gagner play last night?

    Gangner could be a game changer but most likely kind of like another Brodziak type deal. I think the Strome for Spooner is like trading the bad after the bad.
    Gagner played very well last night even though he was stuck most of the time on a line of Cave and Rieder who collectively have zero goals. He set up Cave 3 times in front of the net and of course Colby couldn't finish.


    Gagner in the first period made a very good play where skated back to D line, stayed onside, drew the D coverage and filtered a perfect pass shot on goal. Colby had a perfect rebound staring at him and couldn't cash.


    Gagner fed Rieder, and also worked the 2nd PP unit better than its looked in months. To a degree that Spooner couldn't. On one play Gagner gets the puck and a quick shot on goal creates chaos and a good rebound.


    Gagner god one shift with McD and fed him a breakout pass with Connor getting stripped from behind by the D.



    For a tired Sam Gagner this was quite a good night of work. He even contributed to the RNH goal, and had about 5 shifts with RNH.
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    As far as Strome-Spooner-Gagner trade path Strome is better defensively and Sam is better offensively.

    Columbus used Sam Gagner quite effectively just a couple seasons ago and Sam got a 50pt season.

    The thing is Gagner brings some offensive talent which ironically is in short supply now. I say ironically because prior to Chiarelli dismantling this club its talent pool was deep enough to make Gagner expendable. Now the team needs a Gagner, go figure.

    In anycase Sam Gagner is night and day better than the current version of Spooner.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Thanks for that. I keep cheering for Reider. At some point Reider will score, maybe with a better team.

    Gagner has always been a fan favorite in this household.
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    Sekera recalled from the Condors just now
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Thanks for that. I keep cheering for Reider. At some point Reider will score, maybe with a better team.

    Gagner has always been a fan favorite in this household.
    It’s strange as Reider was the leading scorer on the Kitchener Rangers with 42 goals and 42 assists and accolades in the OHL upon leaving. Maybe he needs a hypnotist to bring that back.

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    Oilers put Manning on waivers. Can't imagine any team will take him; no org is as stupid as the Edmonton Oilers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Thanks for that. I keep cheering for Reider. At some point Reider will score, maybe with a better team.

    Gagner has always been a fan favorite in this household.
    It’s strange as Reider was the leading scorer on the Kitchener Rangers with 42 goals and 42 assists and accolades in the OHL upon leaving. Maybe he needs a hypnotist to bring that back.
    And Jason Bonsignore was going to be the next Mario Lemieux, based on his junior career. Some guys can translate that success to the NHL, some can't, and some are late bloomers or the NHL just suits their game better. Guys who excel in one particular area can dominate in junior, even if they're mediocre elsewhere. That doesn't fly in the NHL.

    Rieder's a great skater, blew everyone's doors off in the OHL, and that helped cover up his other deficiencies. But he's got poor hands and doesn't seem able to get to scoring areas, even if he's fast. This year he's not actually all that far off his career numbers in terms of points. He's a 25-30 point guy, and in a little over half a season he's got 10 points. A few more bounces and breaks going his way and he'd be right where you'd expect him to be. The problem is expecting him to be anything more than that.

  18. #818

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Oilers put Manning on waivers. Can't imagine any team will take him; no org is as stupid as the Edmonton Oilers.
    Was this ever anything but a troll move with Chiarelli trying to expedite his own firing because he just wanted out after destroying our roster?


    Not only were three the Ramifications with McDavid and Manning and it was ridiculous from the start that Manning was acquired for that reason alone. But Manning isn't even a capable NHL player and McD was put in a difficult spot of having him in the room.


    Finally, we lose Caggiulia flat out for somebody that was never going to help the club in any way. Cagg fittingly scored a goal against us in the only game we've played the hawks since.
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    I think it might be better to bury Manning's contract in Bakersfield for a year.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Brandon Manning, predictably, clears waivers. Let that sink in: There are 30 teams in the NHL who would not take this dumpster fire of a contract at no acquisition cost, let alone trade a somewhat useful player in return for him, as only the Oilers did. Not one team even wanted him as an insurance policy for the playoffs!

    The Caggiula-for-Manning trade may live in infamy as Peak Oilers.
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    Worse yet is the Oilers are a team that badly needs competent wingers, and they trade away one of highest scoring wingers for Manning.

    Caggiula was absolutely not without his bone-headed giveaways and flaws, but he did manage to get the puck in the net more than most players on the Oilers in his 29 game tenure this season. Trade made no sense when it occurred and makes less sense now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickv View Post
    Worse yet is the Oilers are a team that badly needs competent wingers, and they trade away one of highest scoring wingers for Manning.

    Caggiula was absolutely not without his bone-headed giveaways and flaws, but he did manage to get the puck in the net more than most players on the Oilers in his 29 game tenure this season. Trade made no sense when it occurred and makes less sense now.
    Hawks record before Caggiula - 15-20-6

    Hawks record with Caggiula - 10-6-3
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

  23. #823
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    I think the Oilers have only won three games since the Caggiula trade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Brandon Manning, predictably, clears waivers. Let that sink in: There are 30 teams in the NHL who would not take this dumpster fire of a contract at no acquisition cost, let alone trade a somewhat useful player in return for him, as only the Oilers did. Not one team even wanted him as an insurance policy for the playoffs!

    The Caggiula-for-Manning trade may live in infamy as Peak Oilers.
    I'd agree 100%, but there's a certain "hold my beer" quality to Oilers management decisions that leads me to fear this might not even live on in infamy as "Peak Oilers" longer than a month.

    The Blackhawks reportedly considered Manning's contract un-movable. That trade may have saved the Hawks GM's job.

    The Oilers, a SLOW team mired in serious cap hell, with no depth on wing, and too many bottom pairing D, give up one of their few wingers who can score at all and take back a SLOW bottom pairing D on a bad contract. It's so crazy it might just work.

    Nobody liked the trade at the time. Bad from a few different angles.

    I have to wonder about the Oilers scouting. There were reports the Oilers have been interested in Manning for quite awhile. It seems they have a habit of seeing potential where there is none. I doubt Chiarelli made this trade all on his own, especially given that the leash was short, and the noose was tightening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    As far as Strome-Spooner-Gagner trade path Strome is better defensively and Sam is better offensively.

    Columbus used Sam Gagner quite effectively just a couple seasons ago and Sam got a 50pt season.

    The thing is Gagner brings some offensive talent which ironically is in short supply now. I say ironically because prior to Chiarelli dismantling this club its talent pool was deep enough to make Gagner expendable. Now the team needs a Gagner, go figure.

    In anycase Sam Gagner is night and day better than the current version of Spooner.
    I don't want to write too much into one game, but Gagner played like a NHL player. Made a few really solid, smart plays away from the puck, which I never really considered a strong part of his game. Maybe he's made the transition to solid role player.

    He isn't the player he once was, but he can be once in awhile. I think he might have some offence left, enough for spurts now and then, but I'm not counting on him for a ton of goals. Would be nice.

    I don't know what happened with Spooner, but the wheels came off for that guy some time ago. He actually showed some real skill with Boston (I think). Known as something of a half-wall power play specialist. The current NHL should have suited his game. Maybe it's a physical thing, or conditioning, but he looked lost, and weak. Another Oilers reclamation project that didn't work out.

    Strome may be the best of those three. He's a responsible player with some skill, the kind the Oilers need. Overpaid, but where have we heard that before?
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

  26. #826

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    I wonder just how much Oilers scouting is stuck in some past era, ignoring hard data and going with (sometimes just wishful) "feels." That kind of scouting is what baseball left behind, begrudgingly for the old-timers, decades ago. This is reflected in a very big way with Lucic and other league left-overs the Oilers have acquired. Then, with the pressure of those bad decisions leaning on subsequent efforts to get results, they get desperate and start making more bad decisions, like letting Puljujarvi waste away up here because they're desperate for results and can't make the harder, longer-term, decisions that a rebuilding team needs to make.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Brandon Manning, predictably, clears waivers. Let that sink in: There are 30 teams in the NHL who would not take this dumpster fire of a contract at no acquisition cost, let alone trade a somewhat useful player in return for him, as only the Oilers did. Not one team even wanted him as an insurance policy for the playoffs!

    The Caggiula-for-Manning trade may live in infamy as Peak Oilers.
    I'd agree 100%, but there's a certain "hold my beer" quality to Oilers management decisions that leads me to fear this might not even live on in infamy as "Peak Oilers" longer than a month.
    Perhaps we can agree that the Oilers are a team with many peaks. (e.g. KoskinEN contract, Hall trade, Lucic signing, Reinhart trade, Petry trade, being some of the highlights.)
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    Bob Nicholson was on CBC AM this morning to discuss hiring a new GM, as well as a variety of other items. It sure is refreshing to hear a member of management asked something resembling a difficult question, rather than the usual softball brigade that is present at a typical Oilers press conference. Mark Connoly may not be an expert on all things hockey, but he does not ease up on Nicholson, i.e. he does the bare minimum that a reporter/journalist should be doing when it comes to follow up questions, pointing out errors, etc.

    Nicholson himself does not come off as a guy who has any sort of idea how to turn this around. "This time I'm going to interview lots of people" for the GM position. Yikes.

    https://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/edmo...gment/15671238

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    No kidding, this is a joke right? Well okay it is, but the joke is on fans who pay good money to watch the joke:

    Only once since Glen Sather held the job, has there been an interview for the job, he said.
    "Obviously it's a mistake as I sit here today," Nicholson said.
    Nicholson said he's taking the time to talk with many general managers in the league and various hockey people about the different types of general managers and the best type "for this city and this team."
    In recent years the team has moved away from analytics, but Nicholson expects a return to using advanced statistics in making trades and drafts picks.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...nton-1.5024655

    Makes Harold Ballard look clever ....
    ... gobsmacked

  30. #830
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    Fire him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinW View Post
    Bob Nicholson was on CBC AM this morning to discuss hiring a new GM, as well as a variety of other items. It sure is refreshing to hear a member of management asked something resembling a difficult question, rather than the usual softball brigade that is present at a typical Oilers press conference. Mark Connoly may not be an expert on all things hockey, but he does not ease up on Nicholson, i.e. he does the bare minimum that a reporter/journalist should be doing when it comes to follow up questions, pointing out errors, etc.

    Nicholson himself does not come off as a guy who has any sort of idea how to turn this around. "This time I'm going to interview lots of people" for the GM position. Yikes.

    https://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/edmo...gment/15671238
    A very solid interview. While not overtly aggressive at all, Connolly asked fair questions that Nicholson obviously struggled to answer. We only seem to see these tough interviews once in a blue moon in Oilersland. I can't recall a challenging interview or press conference for an Oilers executive since John MacKinnon was able to induce Kevin Lowe into a full-blown meltdown after he announced the hiring of Craig MacTavish as GM in 2013.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    I wonder just how much Oilers scouting is stuck in some past era, ignoring hard data and going with (sometimes just wishful) "feels." That kind of scouting is what baseball left behind, begrudgingly for the old-timers, decades ago. This is reflected in a very big way with Lucic and other league left-overs the Oilers have acquired.
    I agree entirely. Amateur scouting has been miles better the last few drafts, but the Oilers pro-scouting has been continually abysmal since I can remember. Per http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/...monton_Oilers/, I count TWO goods trades for an underutilized serviceable NHL player that had some modicum more of success here since July 1st, 2011:

    Perron for Pajaarvi & 2nd

    Maroon for Gernat & 4th (+ Anaheim retained salary)

    The Perron trade was especially good as it was flipped for a 1st later, which of course was unfortunately wasted on acquiring Griffin Reinhart.
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  33. #833
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    AZ in town tonight.

    Lets hope the autograph session they had at WEM yesterday inspires the team today.

    Oilers should have picked up his brother Sam Reinhart instead if they had a chance, just sayin.
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    Also, I 100% agree on firing Nicholson.

    If I were President of Hockey Operations for the Oilers, I would hire someone who has held a c-suite position at numerous companies in differing fields to great success, and then tell them to bring on whatever scouts, analysts, statisticians, etc. they want, and see what happens. Someone who is going to be able to structure a solid core of people around him to feed him the best unbiased information that is then used to develop a long term vision and make objective decisions. Enough of these jobbers who played hockey before helmets receiving high-level positions due to their status as one of the "hockey men".

    We probably won't see any team do this for awhile yet, however. Hockey is painfully slow to adapt, and any and all changes are met with ludicrous antagonism.
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    No need to sack Nicholson, there is word that he's up for a Hockey Canada position or something.
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    Managing in a league with a cap takes more knowledge than time in with the NHL. You need to know future impacts on the salary cap, player analytics, and other details.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickv View Post
    The Perron trade was especially good as it was flipped for a 1st later, which of course was unfortunately wasted on acquiring Griffin Reinhart.
    The very same pick that should have yielded us Mathew Barzal, Kyle Connor, or Thomas Chabot. Yes, I'm still disgusted by this.

    I remember the commentary on live tv when that trade was announced. "The Oilers have traded #16 overall and #33 overall for Griffin Reinhart... that's it??"
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickv View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    I wonder just how much Oilers scouting is stuck in some past era, ignoring hard data and going with (sometimes just wishful) "feels." That kind of scouting is what baseball left behind, begrudgingly for the old-timers, decades ago. This is reflected in a very big way with Lucic and other league left-overs the Oilers have acquired.
    I agree entirely. Amateur scouting has been miles better the last few drafts, but the Oilers pro-scouting has been continually abysmal since I can remember. Per http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/...monton_Oilers/, I count TWO goods trades for an underutilized serviceable NHL player that had some modicum more of success here since July 1st, 2011:

    Perron for Pajaarvi & 2nd

    Maroon for Gernat & 4th (+ Anaheim retained salary)

    The Perron trade was especially good as it was flipped for a 1st later, which of course was unfortunately wasted on acquiring Griffin Reinhart.
    The Kassian for Scrivens trade worked out pretty well. Kassian had poisoned his relationship with the team in Montreal, had to go, and Chiarelli took advantage. Talbot for a 2nd, 3rd, and 5th, was ok at the time, but still a little steep for a rental UFA.

    Other than that, it's been a series of mostly head scratchers. This team (and its fanbase/media) has a history of running players out of town. Dumping on them, poisoning the water, then selling low, and trading down. As if they get mad at a 20 goal scorer for not being a 30 goal scorer, then trading them for a 10 goal scorer they expect to score 20 or 30. Then they score 5, and get traded for someone who scores 3, etc.

    The only significant moves the Oilers have made in over a decade have involved losing seasons and high draft picks. Anybody could do that.

    Until this year there was an argument to be made for just about every trade, even if it was wrong. The Manning trade made no sense at all.

    The over arching narrative to this entire mess involves going to heavy hockey, in order to compete in the Pacific, and ride shotgun for McDavid, only to have the league move towards speed. The Oilers zigged, and the league zagged, again, as I've pointed out before.

    Sometimes I wonder if the Oilers "brain trust" (we know who they are) are contrarian by nature, think they can cheat the system, and think they can outsmart everyone else. Like they can make the leap from awful to Stanley Cup winner, without going through all that competitive team stuff. It worked in 2006, if you use a selective memory (hot goaltending and Pronger got them there - they were never that good, and not as good as the teams they beat).

    That Cup run, exciting as it was, set the stage for the decade (and counting) of darkness to follow, especially as it pertains to the "architects" of that team and their egos. Those people are still there.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nickv View Post
    The Perron trade was especially good as it was flipped for a 1st later, which of course was unfortunately wasted on acquiring Griffin Reinhart.
    The very same pick that should have yielded us Mathew Barzal, Kyle Connor, or Thomas Chabot. Yes, I'm still disgusted by this.

    I remember the commentary on live tv when that trade was announced. "The Oilers have traded #16 overall and #33 overall for Griffin Reinhart... that's it??"


    I've had that reaction to a few trades. The feeling of "there's got to be more to it". You wait for the other shoe to drop, part B, and wait, and wait, and it never does. Then it sinks in - that was the actual trade. Tricked again.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    The Oilers are lazy when it comes to trades. Instead of saying no deal, they’ll settle for considerably less.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    I was hoping so hard but another heartbreaking loss. The desert dogs 🐕 beat the northern team again. Shoot.

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    The Oilers probably had their best game in about a month. What a comeback in the third!
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    Ya I thought they were really good too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    The Oilers probably had their best game in about a month. What a comeback in the third!
    Drai was carrying the Oilers on his back on a night the team didn't have Connor McDavid.

    Drai with assists on both goals, almost bagged a couple himself, countlessly setting up people for quality chances (Sam Gagner almost got one 2mins before Nuge) and Drai bounced off around a dozen Yotes checks last night like they weren't even there. Drai was just a tank out there. That could be one of the most impressive opponent performances the Yotes have seen from a player this season. The two points doesn't do it credit. On a better team Drai has 5pts last night.


    Oh, Drai scored in the shootout as well, to cap off his night, and the only Oiler to do so.

    Drai has also easily been the best Oiler in 2019, which is somewhat interesting.
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    If only they would play like that when McDavid is in the lineup. Could you imagine? This was a really good indication that Drai should be centering his own line. And there seemed to be some chemistry between Gagner & Cave as well, which could make a fun 3/4 line.

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    Koskinen also had a real good night last night. Definitely kept the Oil in it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    The Oilers probably had their best game in about a month. What a comeback in the third!
    Drai was carrying the Oilers on his back on a night the team didn't have Connor McDavid.

    Drai with assists on both goals, almost bagged a couple himself, countlessly setting up people for quality chances (Sam Gagner almost got one 2mins before Nuge) and Drai bounced off around a dozen Yotes checks last night like they weren't even there. Drai was just a tank out there. That could be one of the most impressive opponent performances the Yotes have seen from a player this season. The two points doesn't do it credit. On a better team Drai has 5pts last night.


    Oh, Drai scored in the shootout as well, to cap off his night, and the only Oiler to do so.

    Drai has also easily been the best Oiler in 2019, which is somewhat interesting.
    Draisaitl was a beast last night. That was his best game all year. Why doesn't he try like that all the time?

    He STILL needs to work on defensive zone coverage. Much better last night. But still on for both goals against, and, again, up too high and blowing the zone on one of them. You can't do that when you're a centre.

    He was a high event player. He got 2 points, and was even +/-.

    The good news is - scoring is harder to teach than defending.

    McDavid has been the best Oiler in 2019.
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  48. #848

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    The Oilers probably had their best game in about a month. What a comeback in the third!
    Drai was carrying the Oilers on his back on a night the team didn't have Connor McDavid.

    Drai with assists on both goals, almost bagged a couple himself, countlessly setting up people for quality chances (Sam Gagner almost got one 2mins before Nuge) and Drai bounced off around a dozen Yotes checks last night like they weren't even there. Drai was just a tank out there. That could be one of the most impressive opponent performances the Yotes have seen from a player this season. The two points doesn't do it credit. On a better team Drai has 5pts last night.


    Oh, Drai scored in the shootout as well, to cap off his night, and the only Oiler to do so.

    Drai has also easily been the best Oiler in 2019, which is somewhat interesting.
    Draisaitl was a beast last night. That was his best game all year. Why doesn't he try like that all the time?

    He STILL needs to work on defensive zone coverage. Much better last night. But still on for both goals against, and, again, up too high and blowing the zone on one of them. You can't do that when you're a centre.

    He was a high event player. He got 2 points, and was even +/-.

    The good news is - scoring is harder to teach than defending.

    McDavid has been the best Oiler in 2019.
    Basically in the current NHL toplines face toplines and that's where Goals, and Goals against are going to largely occur. Do you now fault drai for nearly being present on the ice for a GA or when he as fault for a GA? I'll point out on this as well, Nuge was picked clean on the boards last night on a "very weak" board battle that resulted directly in a GA. Same thing you called out Drai for previously. I think it was you anyway. Drai and Nuge has almost all their shifts together last night. I don't think I've you heard you make one comment about Nuges own weak play or being bad at faceoffs still 8yrs into his career. Nuge is supposed to be the defensively more responsible Center on this club. The reality is he's not as good at the much younger Drai, at anything.

    Heres another thing. Drai is an even player on the Oilers and Nuge is -10. Drai has seen much more difficult QOC and with comparable QOT. Drai is also eating way too many minutes and forwards in hockey cannot play 26mins/night period. Its untenable. And DRai plays every night and is never missing a game.

    Finally Drai scores in shootout giving his team a chance for a result after already being in on every goal the Oilers scored in the game. Nobody else scores in shootout, or lately, almost any other time.
    Last edited by Replacement; 20-02-2019 at 09:30 PM.
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    I don't think Draisaitl needs to learn any sort of defensive coverage. I will remind everyone that Drai is 10th in the entire NHL for scoring, and 6th in the NHL for TOI for forwards.

    Pick two: elite scoring, huge ice time, elite defensive coverage. Expecting all three is absurd and only done by the absolute all time greats (Crosby, Lemieux, Howe, and so far, McDavid).

    When you're playing over 20 minutes a night AND expected to be putting the puck in the net, you're going to cheat a bit for offence and to save some energy (hence up too high, blowing the zone a bit, light on the backcheck)-especially on the Oilers where it is clear that if he, McDavid or Nuge are not scoring, nobody else is going to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickv
    Pick two: elite scoring, huge ice time, elite defensive coverage. Expecting all three is absurd and only done by the absolute all time greats (Crosby, Lemieux, Howe, and so far, McDavid).


    Sorry, going to have to disagree pretty strongly. No one's asking for "elite" defensive coverage by Draisatl. They're asking him to not leave guys wide open or to let them blow by him because he's coasting on a back check. Those kinds of things happen too often. And he takes too long of shifts, especially on the PP and in OT. He was caught out way too long on his first shift in OT on Tuesday night, and it nearly resulted in a goal. No, he's not Crosby. But why can't he have the defensive responsibility of someone like say, Kopitar, Scheifele or Toews, who are absolute beasts in their own end while also being consistent 60-80 point players (less so for Toews offensively)?

    That being said, Draisatl is not anywhere near the top of the list of Oilers' problems by any means. But he does need to put in more effort on the other side of the puck from time to time.

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    If Hitch had issues with him taking too long of shifts, he would not be taking as long of shifts. Both realize he needs to be on the ice to create offence otherwise it isn't going to happen. Especially on the PP & in OT. Seriously, Oilers 2nd unit PP has what, one goal this entire year? And who did you want on the ice in OT once Drai and Nuge's shift was over, Chiasson? Rieder? Colby Cave?

    Fact is Draisaitl is not a super human like McDavid or Kopitar who can much minutes, light up the scoreboard and still have excellent defensive play. He can do better on defense, but it is going to come at the cost of his scoring production level, so take your choice on that. We saw similar with Nuge, who put into a much more two-way, defensive minded role upon the arrival of McDavid, and his offensive production suffered greatly until this year when McLellan finally took the leash off him and let him play a more offensive game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickv View Post
    If Hitch had issues with him taking too long of shifts, he would not be taking as long of shifts. Both realize he needs to be on the ice to create offence otherwise it isn't going to happen. Especially on the PP & in OT. Seriously, Oilers 2nd unit PP has what, one goal this entire year? And who did you want on the ice in OT once Drai and Nuge's shift was over, Chiasson? Rieder? Colby Cave?

    Fact is Draisaitl is not a super human like McDavid or Kopitar who can much minutes, light up the scoreboard and still have excellent defensive play. He can do better on defense, but it is going to come at the cost of his scoring production level, so take your choice on that. We saw similar with Nuge, who put into a much more two-way, defensive minded role upon the arrival of McDavid, and his offensive production suffered greatly until this year when McLellan finally took the leash off him and let him play a more offensive game.
    Agree with your other post but disagree somewhat in regards to Kopitar who played his peak years on a stacked Kings club. I'm a big fan of Kopitar but it is quite possible that Draisaitl has eclipsed Kopitar. Its hard to compare because Drai doesn't have the 5 man unit help on the ice that Kopitar had. In Edmonton, if you breakdown the puck ends up in the back of your net or in a serious scoring chance. In LA they have 5 man units and levels of D that at peak played well in sync mopping and containing opponents. That was a well Oiled machine in LA during their cup run and not just because of Kopitar.
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    I wonder if Matthew Duchene would be a good fir for this team? At $6m though he's a hefty price tag
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    Duchene is a UFA after this season and has played in eight playoff games after 10 years in the league, and wanted out of Colorado so he play on a team that is making the playoffs. Likely he gets sent somewhere like Nashville as a rental, and then signs somewhere that is guaranteed playoff bound next season, i.e. not Edmonton.
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    Doug MacClean even said Duchene would be a rental, and I doubt with the Oilers cap space they could afford him anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nickv
    Pick two: elite scoring, huge ice time, elite defensive coverage. Expecting all three is absurd and only done by the absolute all time greats (Crosby, Lemieux, Howe, and so far, McDavid).


    Sorry, going to have to disagree pretty strongly. No one's asking for "elite" defensive coverage by Draisatl. They're asking him to not leave guys wide open or to let them blow by him because he's coasting on a back check. Those kinds of things happen too often. And he takes too long of shifts, especially on the PP and in OT. He was caught out way too long on his first shift in OT on Tuesday night, and it nearly resulted in a goal. No, he's not Crosby. But why can't he have the defensive responsibility of someone like say, Kopitar, Scheifele or Toews, who are absolute beasts in their own end while also being consistent 60-80 point players (less so for Toews offensively)?

    That being said, Draisatl is not anywhere near the top of the list of Oilers' problems by any means. But he does need to put in more effort on the other side of the puck from time to time.
    If someone tries to make a play and it doesn't work out, that's one kind of mistake. It happens all the time. Part of the risk/reward equation. If players aren't making some of those mistakes, they aren't trying hard enough.

    If someone continues to make the same kinds of mental positional errors, that's another kind of mistake. Centre is a challenging position, because it comes with a lot of responsibilities, fundamentally requires a 200ft game, and thinking the game the right way on offence and defence.

    The bigger mistake would be giving Draisaitl a pass on those mistakes. The good news is that they are relatively straightforward to fix. It's hard to teach scoring. But you have to admit it's a problem when it's costing points in the standings.

    If you don't admit it's a problem, then you've created a class of "special" player, better than the game, who doesn't need to abide by the same fundamentals a player like Toews, or Crosby, or Bergevin do (Barkov, Scheifele, Monohan, MacKinnon, Tavares, Kopitar, etc.).

    There are plays that are score related. If a team is down 3-0, they might cheat on offence.

    This was a 1-0 game the Oilers desperately needed to win. He was out by the blue line on the 2-0, if memory serves. He needs to be in the deep slot.

    Nobody's trying to run the guy out of town. I'm not ignoring what he brings to the team offensively.

    But it's the third time I've pointed it out in 5 tight games or so. Each time it's played a big role, and cost the team points.

    I like to check the stats too. But, mostly, I like to check the standings, if you catch my drift. I really enjoy playoff hockey.

    As a stat, +/- is very important, but only in context. Impossible to separate from the situation. A lot of the top scorers rack up points on the PP, which is important.

    McD and Draisaitl make $21M between them. Notwithstanding Chiarelli's cap (mis)management, it does present a challenge when you pay 1/4 of your cap space to two guys.

    They often play together. The narrative that has them dragging along a bunch of lousy guys is a little spurious, to use Replacement's term. Those contracts, justified imo, are a large part of the reason this team doesn't get to pick up some next level players, or another elite one. Most teams have an underperforming bigger contract similar to Lucic. Instead of lines 1-4, you get a 1+ line, a 3rd-, a 4th, and a bubble line.

    Draisaitl gets to play with the best player in the world, a lot. He's paid well to do it.

    Like I said, I thought it was his best game all year. No "lazy loops". No gliding, or walking. Backchecked. Seemed to be taking the team on his shoulders, which was very encouraging. And there was a lot more good than bad.

    I thought the team played as well as they could, and have been playing the right way for a few games. I though Lucic was playing pretty well, at first, but he runs out of gas early in a fast paced game, unfortunately.

    I talk about the modern game being fast, but I'm not only talking about speed and quickness. I'm talking about pace. I was surprised the Oilers were able to make a push. The 3rd period gave me hope, but I've been teased in the past so many times.

    I thought the team looked like a "team", without McDavid. I'll take McDavid anytime, of course, but I think they needed to prove to themselves that they could play without him.

    The Oilers aren't playing bad, right now. They've been pretty consistent the last few games. Just clean up some obvious problems, and the team will start to win a few. If they care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nickv View Post
    If Hitch had issues with him taking too long of shifts, he would not be taking as long of shifts. Both realize he needs to be on the ice to create offence otherwise it isn't going to happen. Especially on the PP & in OT. Seriously, Oilers 2nd unit PP has what, one goal this entire year? And who did you want on the ice in OT once Drai and Nuge's shift was over, Chiasson? Rieder? Colby Cave?

    Fact is Draisaitl is not a super human like McDavid or Kopitar who can much minutes, light up the scoreboard and still have excellent defensive play. He can do better on defense, but it is going to come at the cost of his scoring production level, so take your choice on that. We saw similar with Nuge, who put into a much more two-way, defensive minded role upon the arrival of McDavid, and his offensive production suffered greatly until this year when McLellan finally took the leash off him and let him play a more offensive game.
    Agree with your other post but disagree somewhat in regards to Kopitar who played his peak years on a stacked Kings club. I'm a big fan of Kopitar but it is quite possible that Draisaitl has eclipsed Kopitar. Its hard to compare because Drai doesn't have the 5 man unit help on the ice that Kopitar had. In Edmonton, if you breakdown the puck ends up in the back of your net or in a serious scoring chance. In LA they have 5 man units and levels of D that at peak played well in sync mopping and containing opponents. That was a well Oiled machine in LA during their cup run and not just because of Kopitar.
    Sorry to belabour the point, but modern hockey has involved 5 man units since Bobby Orr and the Soviet Union teams of the 70s, and Draisaitl needs to play his role in that 5 man unit better than he does now. He's a smart player, skilled, gifted, willing to work hard, and wants to win. I think he'll learn to do it, and even come to enjoy it, like a guy like Bergeron. But it's not easy.

    It's very hard to compare Kopitar with Draisaitl. Very different players, in very different situations.

    What impressed me most about LA when they first won the Cup was the way the players became indistinguishable from each other in big games, because they were all playing the same way. They made the most of their opportunities. It's a different game now, with a faster pace, but not that much different, come playoff time.

    Believe it or not, there are a lot of very good hockey players available who can play a system to near perfection, including players the Oilers have now. It's the system that wins. Everyone needs to buy in. Nobody gets to half *** it on defence because they are good on offence.
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    ^ That seems to be the trouble with the Oilers, they don't buy in as a team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nickv View Post
    If Hitch had issues with him taking too long of shifts, he would not be taking as long of shifts. Both realize he needs to be on the ice to create offence otherwise it isn't going to happen. Especially on the PP & in OT. Seriously, Oilers 2nd unit PP has what, one goal this entire year? And who did you want on the ice in OT once Drai and Nuge's shift was over, Chiasson? Rieder? Colby Cave?

    Fact is Draisaitl is not a super human like McDavid or Kopitar who can much minutes, light up the scoreboard and still have excellent defensive play. He can do better on defense, but it is going to come at the cost of his scoring production level, so take your choice on that. We saw similar with Nuge, who put into a much more two-way, defensive minded role upon the arrival of McDavid, and his offensive production suffered greatly until this year when McLellan finally took the leash off him and let him play a more offensive game.
    Agree with your other post but disagree somewhat in regards to Kopitar who played his peak years on a stacked Kings club. I'm a big fan of Kopitar but it is quite possible that Draisaitl has eclipsed Kopitar. Its hard to compare because Drai doesn't have the 5 man unit help on the ice that Kopitar had. In Edmonton, if you breakdown the puck ends up in the back of your net or in a serious scoring chance. In LA they have 5 man units and levels of D that at peak played well in sync mopping and containing opponents. That was a well Oiled machine in LA during their cup run and not just because of Kopitar.
    Sorry to belabour the point, but modern hockey has involved 5 man units since Bobby Orr and the Soviet Union teams of the 70s, and Draisaitl needs to play his role in that 5 man unit better than he does now. He's a smart player, skilled, gifted, willing to work hard, and wants to win. I think he'll learn to do it, and even come to enjoy it, like a guy like Bergeron. But it's not easy.

    It's very hard to compare Kopitar with Draisaitl. Very different players, in very different situations.

    What impressed me most about LA when they first won the Cup was the way the players became indistinguishable from each other in big games, because they were all playing the same way. They made the most of their opportunities. It's a different game now, with a faster pace, but not that much different, come playoff time.

    Believe it or not, there are a lot of very good hockey players available who can play a system to near perfection, including players the Oilers have now. It's the system that wins. Everyone needs to buy in. Nobody gets to half *** it on defence because they are good on offence.
    So much wrong with this post and the post above it.


    The McDrai combined 21M is not the source of the Oilers contractual woes. Its the deadwood contracts like Lucic, and numerous buyouts still on the books, as well as obvious bad trades, Eberle, Hall etc. That result in the OIlers current abject lack of talent. With Lucic making the identical Hall money.

    The only mistakes you point out are ones made by Drai, the 2nd best player on this club, and one that has earned the trust of every coach he's played for and is on the pk a lot and is as good or better defensively than any Center on this team.


    But this point by you "But it's the third time I've pointed it out in 5 tight games or so. Each time it's played a big role, and cost the team points." honestly takes the cake. On the recent roadtrip Drai scored 75% of the teams goals, was by miles the best player in the last 5 GP, and you are singling him out for criticism saying he played big negative roles in 5 games which cost the team points. Really, honestly, I have no idea how somebody could have that deluded a take on it. It screams bias. For anybody to be singling out Drai for criticism, in 2019, which you do everytime, is just extraordinary.


    As far as when Drai plays with McD the two are gold together. As mentioned Drai+McD w/o Nuge yield a goal differential of greater than 1 / 60mins. Conversely, McD + Nuge w/o Drai yield NEGATIVE goal differential in what should be shocking. Nuge doesn't even float playing with McD. That's a huge problem. But you don't even mention that, ever. You're fixated on Drai's getting pts with McD when its quite often, or at least as much, Drai making those pts. Or finishing those goals, better than anybody we have had since 1989. Guess it doesn't matter to you that McD also has his best stats playing with Drai, and that in anycase McD has only 9more EV pts than Drai all season and almost anytime McD is not playing with Drai he gets Nuge. When Drai is not playing with McD, he gets mostly junk. Correct for QOT and McD and Drai are a basic dead heat this year, and with Drai having considerably more goals.
    Last edited by Replacement; 21-02-2019 at 06:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ That seems to be the trouble with the Oilers, they don't buy in as a team.
    I don't see it that way. By the coachs own acknowledgement the team bought in the last 4 games. They played well according to his view, they lost all the games. every one.

    The main reason being is the Oilers scored 6 goals in their last 4GP. That's 1.5/game, and no team in the league wins consistently, or much at all, with that low a total.

    Basically in the higher scoring NHL this season score 0,1,2 goals in a game and you're dead.


    Jimbo is even referring to the LA Kings who can't even win that way anymore. The NHL has changed and offensive prowess and depth is dictating more results.

    The Oilers have 4 players that are double digits in goals, only 4. That is laughable. They have 5 players with as many as 20 pts which is an indictment on what Chiarelli did to this lineup.


    Nothing illustrates how badly Chiarelli screwed this roster than Sam Gagner. When Sam left here he was considered expendable, not worth having, and the org felt they had enough talent, and players that played the right way that they didn't need or want Sam Gagner. Now 4years later the same Sam Gagner looks like the 4th best forward on the lineup and is already the 2nd PP QB. In only two games back its been obvious he's an offensive piece. Because this club so lacks in offensive depth.


    Buy in is impacted not by player attitude or indifference but when players sense that no matter how well they play (and the Oilers have outplayed opponents in 3/4 of the last GP, they lose, because their lineup is not good enough. Other teams get depth scoring. We don't.
    On a night like tonight, again we will have 3 lines that are garbage.

    This is the worst forward roster in the NHL. Outside of McDrai and Nuge this forward lineup is complete garbage. Theres 7 forwards on this team that would probably clear waivers.
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    For sure a few differing opinions on Draisaitl here. He had undeniably another fantastic night tonight. One thing I know for sure is he is one of the NHLs best passers. Another no-look to McDavid's tape for the OT winner.

    Jimbo has it right, that's that offense that is real difficult to teach.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ That seems to be the trouble with the Oilers, they don't buy in as a team.
    I don't see it that way. By the coachs own acknowledgement the team bought in the last 4 games. They played well according to his view, they lost all the games. every one.

    The main reason being is the Oilers scored 6 goals in their last 4GP. That's 1.5/game, and no team in the league wins consistently, or much at all, with that low a total.

    Basically in the higher scoring NHL this season score 0,1,2 goals in a game and you're dead.

    Ricky's has fish n chips? Need to check out their dt location again Saturday.


    Jimbo is even referring to the LA Kings who can't even win that way anymore. The NHL has changed and offensive prowess and depth is dictating more results.

    The Oilers have 4 players that are double digits in goals, only 4. That is laughable. They have 5 players with as many as 20 pts which is an indictment on what Chiarelli did to this lineup.


    Nothing illustrates how badly Chiarelli screwed this roster than Sam Gagner. When Sam left here he was considered expendable, not worth having, and the org felt they had enough talent, and players that played the right way that they didn't need or want Sam Gagner. Now 4years later the same Sam Gagner looks like the 4th best forward on the lineup and is already the 2nd PP QB. In only two games back its been obvious he's an offensive piece. Because this club so lacks in offensive depth.


    Buy in is impacted not by player attitude or indifference but when players sense that no matter how well they play (and the Oilers have outplayed opponents in 3/4 of the last GP, they lose, because their lineup is not good enough. Other teams get depth scoring. We don't.
    On a night like tonight, again we will have 3 lines that are garbage.

    This is the worst forward roster in the NHL. Outside of McDrai and Nuge this forward lineup is complete garbage. Theres 7 forwards on this team that would probably clear waivers.
    Not enough time to respond to everything you bring up but I agree with you about the forwards on waivers.

    Ricky's has fish n chips at their dt location? Need to check them out Saturday afternoon.
    Last edited by envaneo; 21-02-2019 at 10:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickv View Post
    For sure a few differing opinions on Draisaitl here. He had undeniably another fantastic night tonight. One thing I know for sure is he is one of the NHLs best passers. Another no-look to McDavid's tape for the OT winner.

    Jimbo has it right, that's that offense that is real difficult to teach.
    Another game that Draisaitl owned, and I'd like to comment on Drasaitl supposedly rarely being engaged defensively.

    IN first period alone Draisaitl hammers Barzal into end boards, strips the puck and transitions it out. Then on Islanders 2 man advantage Drai wins face off, Drai then gets puck out after intercepting a pass, and then gets puck out AGAIN, only to have the Islanders come back and score. But Drai doing heroic work there after McD and Russell had taken bad penalties.


    Should mention McD flew zone completely, 10 ft out, on the first Islander goal, really bad play due to the score effects and that the Islanders were reeling to that point


    Drai also 3 times tonight seamlessly transitions back for a jumping D. 3 times it was Klefbom, but I guess I forgive him for getting the tying goal on a jump up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    ...

    Sorry to belabour the point, but modern hockey has involved 5 man units since Bobby Orr and the Soviet Union teams of the 70s, and Draisaitl needs to play his role in that 5 man unit better than he does now. He's a smart player, skilled, gifted, willing to work hard, and wants to win. I think he'll learn to do it, and even come to enjoy it, like a guy like Bergeron. But it's not easy.

    It's very hard to compare Kopitar with Draisaitl. Very different players, in very different situations.

    What impressed me most about LA when they first won the Cup was the way the players became indistinguishable from each other in big games, because they were all playing the same way. They made the most of their opportunities. It's a different game now, with a faster pace, but not that much different, come playoff time.

    Believe it or not, there are a lot of very good hockey players available who can play a system to near perfection, including players the Oilers have now. It's the system that wins. Everyone needs to buy in. Nobody gets to half *** it on defence because they are good on offence.
    So much wrong with this post and the post above it.


    The McDrai combined 21M is not the source of the Oilers contractual woes. Its the deadwood contracts like Lucic, and numerous buyouts still on the books, as well as obvious bad trades, Eberle, Hall etc. That result in the OIlers current abject lack of talent. With Lucic making the identical Hall money.

    The only mistakes you point out are ones made by Drai, the 2nd best player on this club, and one that has earned the trust of every coach he's played for and is on the pk a lot and is as good or better defensively than any Center on this team.


    But this point by you "But it's the third time I've pointed it out in 5 tight games or so. Each time it's played a big role, and cost the team points." honestly takes the cake. On the recent roadtrip Drai scored 75% of the teams goals, was by miles the best player in the last 5 GP, and you are singling him out for criticism saying he played big negative roles in 5 games which cost the team points. Really, honestly, I have no idea how somebody could have that deluded a take on it. It screams bias. For anybody to be singling out Drai for criticism, in 2019, which you do everytime, is just extraordinary.


    As far as when Drai plays with McD the two are gold together. As mentioned Drai+McD w/o Nuge yield a goal differential of greater than 1 / 60mins. Conversely, McD + Nuge w/o Drai yield NEGATIVE goal differential in what should be shocking. Nuge doesn't even float playing with McD. That's a huge problem. But you don't even mention that, ever. You're fixated on Drai's getting pts with McD when its quite often, or at least as much, Drai making those pts. Or finishing those goals, better than anybody we have had since 1989. Guess it doesn't matter to you that McD also has his best stats playing with Drai, and that in anycase McD has only 9more EV pts than Drai all season and almost anytime McD is not playing with Drai he gets Nuge. When Drai is not playing with McD, he gets mostly junk. Correct for QOT and McD and Drai are a basic dead heat this year, and with Drai having considerably more goals.
    "It's the system that wins. Everyone needs to buy in. Nobody gets to half *** it on defence because they are good on offence."

    Can we agree on that?

    Should a centre get a pass on D because he's great on offence?

    When someone is repeatedly out of position on goals against in tight games in a playoff race it's a problem. The good news is it's straightforward to fix. If it's the only problem, then it's really good news.

    Why wouldn't you fix the problem? Can you see the problem? He's not very good defensively. Both RNH and McDavid are better at it than he is.

    I think Leon can see it, because he's getting better. Nobody likes hearing how they suck on defence, and he's a proud guy.

    I'm not the only person saying this. Try listening to away broadcasts. An interesting perspective. It would seem Leon's poor defensive play is on the media advance, fairly or not, because they all talk about it. They all bring it up, and point it out when it happens, and it does.

    They also point out he's an amazing talent. An amazing talent that needs to work on his defensive game. They all say it.

    Staples thought he played a great game the game before, but had him as a high event player, with 7 good plays leading to grade A scoring chances for, and 4 bad plays that led to grade A scoring chances against.

    There are times you want a high event player, like when you're behind late in the game. It certainly helped in the last two 3rd periods.

    Not usually.

    It doesn't have to be a 7-4 tradeoff - a ridiculous number that usually involves score effect. A lot of offence these days stems from a defensive play. If you concentrate on the 4 against (high by any standard) to get it to somewhere like 1, where it should be, you're most likely in a better position to win. 2-1 odds are better than 7-4, and I'd bet he'd get create more than 2. Get it down near zero, which he could, using his talent, and he's going to do great. It's a matter of priorities.

    Here's what makes sense to me. Play the game the right way, play the coach's system, work to eliminate quality chances against, and if you really need a goal late in the game because you're behind, change your game, pin your ears back, throw caution to the wind, and cheat on offence.

    It's really good to have a game breaker that can do that if he needs to.

    Why does any criticism at all of Draisaitl have to be taken as blaming him for all the Oilers woes?

    Playing centre involves a 200 ft game, as they say. More than any other position.

    A skilled offensive centre who isn't responsible defensively forces someone else to cover for him. I have a hard time blaming everything on lesser skilled guys at a significantly lower pay grade for not scoring when it's not really their job, the way playing defence isn't the really his job, apparently.

    Rather, it's to be expected.

    If he gets a pass, they get a pass, and on it goes until everyone gets a pass, and everyone is to blame, and there's no way to fix anything.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    What do the Islanders, Flames, Blackhawks, and St Louis Blues all have in common with the Edmonton Oilers?

    They've all had a coaching change in the last year.

    The Islanders, Flames, Blackhawks, and St Louis Blues have all played well since the coaching change. They're winning and moving into playoff spots or contention. But the Oilers haven't been.

    What's the difference? Maybe 4 teams bought into the coach's system and process, and one, not so much. It worked here for the first 10 games, and then they went back to the old habits.

    Take the largest sample size - the Islanders.

    The Islanders not only changed coaches, they lost their leader, captain, #1 centre, and franchise player - for no return at all. Nada.

    Nobody would argue they are better without Tavares. They should have been even worse.

    Instead, they're #1 in the Metropolitan Division, one point ahead of last year's Stanley Cup Champions. How come?

    Last year, the Islanders were the worst team in the league in goals against.

    This year they're #1 in the league in goals against.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    ...

    Sorry to belabour the point, but modern hockey has involved 5 man units since Bobby Orr and the Soviet Union teams of the 70s, and Draisaitl needs to play his role in that 5 man unit better than he does now. He's a smart player, skilled, gifted, willing to work hard, and wants to win. I think he'll learn to do it, and even come to enjoy it, like a guy like Bergeron. But it's not easy.

    It's very hard to compare Kopitar with Draisaitl. Very different players, in very different situations.

    What impressed me most about LA when they first won the Cup was the way the players became indistinguishable from each other in big games, because they were all playing the same way. They made the most of their opportunities. It's a different game now, with a faster pace, but not that much different, come playoff time.

    Believe it or not, there are a lot of very good hockey players available who can play a system to near perfection, including players the Oilers have now. It's the system that wins. Everyone needs to buy in. Nobody gets to half *** it on defence because they are good on offence.
    So much wrong with this post and the post above it.


    The McDrai combined 21M is not the source of the Oilers contractual woes. Its the deadwood contracts like Lucic, and numerous buyouts still on the books, as well as obvious bad trades, Eberle, Hall etc. That result in the OIlers current abject lack of talent. With Lucic making the identical Hall money.

    The only mistakes you point out are ones made by Drai, the 2nd best player on this club, and one that has earned the trust of every coach he's played for and is on the pk a lot and is as good or better defensively than any Center on this team.


    But this point by you "But it's the third time I've pointed it out in 5 tight games or so. Each time it's played a big role, and cost the team points." honestly takes the cake. On the recent roadtrip Drai scored 75% of the teams goals, was by miles the best player in the last 5 GP, and you are singling him out for criticism saying he played big negative roles in 5 games which cost the team points. Really, honestly, I have no idea how somebody could have that deluded a take on it. It screams bias. For anybody to be singling out Drai for criticism, in 2019, which you do everytime, is just extraordinary.


    As far as when Drai plays with McD the two are gold together. As mentioned Drai+McD w/o Nuge yield a goal differential of greater than 1 / 60mins. Conversely, McD + Nuge w/o Drai yield NEGATIVE goal differential in what should be shocking. Nuge doesn't even float playing with McD. That's a huge problem. But you don't even mention that, ever. You're fixated on Drai's getting pts with McD when its quite often, or at least as much, Drai making those pts. Or finishing those goals, better than anybody we have had since 1989. Guess it doesn't matter to you that McD also has his best stats playing with Drai, and that in anycase McD has only 9more EV pts than Drai all season and almost anytime McD is not playing with Drai he gets Nuge. When Drai is not playing with McD, he gets mostly junk. Correct for QOT and McD and Drai are a basic dead heat this year, and with Drai having considerably more goals.
    "It's the system that wins. Everyone needs to buy in. Nobody gets to half *** it on defence because they are good on offence."

    Can we agree on that?

    Should a centre get a pass on D because he's great on offence?

    When someone is repeatedly out of position on goals against in tight games in a playoff race it's a problem. The good news is it's straightforward to fix. If it's the only problem, then it's really good news.

    Why wouldn't you fix the problem? Can you see the problem? He's not very good defensively. Both RNH and McDavid are better at it than he is.

    I think Leon can see it, because he's getting better. Nobody likes hearing how they suck on defence, and he's a proud guy.

    I'm not the only person saying this. Try listening to away broadcasts. An interesting perspective. It would seem Leon's poor defensive play is on the media advance, fairly or not, because they all talk about it. They all bring it up, and point it out when it happens, and it does.

    They also point out he's an amazing talent. An amazing talent that needs to work on his defensive game. They all say it.

    Staples thought he played a great game the game before, but had him as a high event player, with 7 good plays leading to grade A scoring chances for, and 4 bad plays that led to grade A scoring chances against.

    There are times you want a high event player, like when you're behind late in the game. It certainly helped in the last two 3rd periods.

    Not usually.

    It doesn't have to be a 7-4 tradeoff - a ridiculous number that usually involves score effect. A lot of offence these days stems from a defensive play. If you concentrate on the 4 against (high by any standard) to get it to somewhere like 1, where it should be, you're most likely in a better position to win. 2-1 odds are better than 7-4, and I'd bet he'd get create more than 2. Get it down near zero, which he could, using his talent, and he's going to do great. It's a matter of priorities.

    Here's what makes sense to me. Play the game the right way, play the coach's system, work to eliminate quality chances against, and if you really need a goal late in the game because you're behind, change your game, pin your ears back, throw caution to the wind, and cheat on offence.

    It's really good to have a game breaker that can do that if he needs to.

    Why does any criticism at all of Draisaitl have to be taken as blaming him for all the Oilers woes?

    Playing centre involves a 200 ft game, as they say. More than any other position.

    A skilled offensive centre who isn't responsible defensively forces someone else to cover for him. I have a hard time blaming everything on lesser skilled guys at a significantly lower pay grade for not scoring when it's not really their job, the way playing defence isn't the really his job, apparently.

    Rather, it's to be expected.

    If he gets a pass, they get a pass, and on it goes until everyone gets a pass, and everyone is to blame, and there's no way to fix anything.
    Do you watch every game and record and make notes on every Draisaitl mistake? Because he's the most responsible and efficient Center we have in own zone. RNH recognizes plays somewhat better but Nuge has 8yrs NHL experience so one would expect that. Drai is getting better in the capacity because he is still young and learning, which is completely understandable.


    You completely ignored every point I made and came back with this lame nonsense that Drai makes tons of defensive errors (assuming that) and that why should he get a pass? That's your complete argument, as if somebody is giving him a pass.


    No, not at all. Players should be responsible all ice, but Drai IS that. You completely ignored all the points about even the game last night and how Drai was once again the best 200 foot player on the ice.


    Your only shred of evidence is citing a Staples Error stat (garbage).


    Staples error stat is widely critiqued around hockey circles. When he was a member of hfboards he was laughed off the board. He was counting faceoff losses as "errors" without even realizing that this would result in a disproportionate amount of errors for Centers. His reply? "so what". He was similarly unaware that players that are in the most puck battles, like Drai, are subject to, by volume, having the most puck losses in these situations. Finally, its well established that players that create, like McD and Drai, who create a large proportion of our offense are the ones that make the most mistakes through the risk/reward in their play.


    Again I encourage you to take a look at some Wowy numbers. If Drai is irresponsible defensively and not a complete player why are McD's best stats almost always with Draisaitl? Why would he and Draisaitl be owning EV play outscoring opposition by over 1G/60mins? Why are Nuge + McD NEGATIVE in goal differential in all EV minutes played w/o Draisaitl?


    All you're telling me here is you have a pretty specific concern with Draisaitl, for some errant reason, and to the degree that you would cite a source like Staples because he's the only one you can find to support your bias. Look at the results, play, numbers, all the information tells you Drai is knocking it out of the ballpark. Its actually McD that has been cheating for offense more this season. Which is exhibited when he's playing not with Drai, but with Nuge.

    But I/m responding to a poster that is on record commenting on games that he isn/t even watching.

    So that its a waste of time.
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-02-2019 at 05:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Do you watch every game and record and make notes on every Draisaitl mistake? Because he's the most responsible and efficient Center we have in own zone. RNH recognizes plays somewhat better but Nuge has 8yrs NHL experience so one would expect that. Drai is getting better in the capacity because he is still young and learning, which is completely understandable.


    You completely ignored every point I made and came back with this lame nonsense that Drai makes tons of defensive errors (assuming that) and that why should he get a pass? That's your complete argument, as if somebody is giving him a pass.

    ...

    So that its a waste of time.
    "It's the system that wins. Everyone needs to buy in. Nobody gets to half *** it on defence because they are good on offence."

    Can we agree on that?

    Yes/No?

    I've addressed your points repeatedly. You're wrong. He's not particularly responsible in his own zone. It's the weak point in an otherwise strong game. It looks to me like he's recognized it, and is addressing it himself. He's a work in progress. Anyone but you can see it.

    YOU are giving him a pass. My debate is with YOU. Virtually everyone else in the game has been saying the same things I keep saying, including the Oilers coach. Your point always seems to come back to blaming all the other players.

    I've never said he makes tons of errors. It only takes one or two. He makes the same mistakes repeatedly, and it's cost the Oilers. They aren't related to talent, or effort, or the will to win, they are related to priorities, and playing the system the coach has established. They are straightforward to address. Anybody can see them. The coach can see them. Draisaitl can see them. They are errors of omission, rather than errors because he's trying to make a play.

    Why wouldn't you address it? Hurt feelings? The guy gets paid $8.5M a year.

    I watch the games. I watch a lot of other games too. I know what's expected of an elite centre. I've been watching hockey for over 50 years.

    Draisaitl's weak defensive play led directly to goals against in close games. That's a fact. The Oilers needed to win those games. That's a fact. The coach called him out forcibly. That's a fact. It's been pointed out by hockey media. That's a fact. He also scored in those games. That's a fact.

    He is paid very well relative to his teammates, and eats up a large % of space on a cap challenged team. That's also a fact.

    I hold the guy making $8.5M to a higher standard than I do the guy making a 10th of that.

    Leon Draisaitl is not the perfect hockey player. He's a young guy still learning some aspects of the game. If he works on this aspect of the game, he'll be a better player.

    You seem to see Draisaitl as above reproach, and take any criticism of the player, however justified, as an unjustified attack, as if I'm saying he's lousy, or the Oilers need to get rid of the guy, or that he's the problem. He's a core asset, an extremely valuable player, and he'll be a key part of this team for many years.

    In a sea of troubles over the previous decade, and counting, one really stands out - lack of accountability at the top.
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    Speaking of accountability at the top. I wonder if McDavid is going to be suspended for the hit to the head on Nick Leddy?

    Probably deserves a couple. Not acceptable.

    If it was the other way around, a headshot on McDavid, people would be losing their minds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Do you watch every game and record and make notes on every Draisaitl mistake? Because he's the most responsible and efficient Center we have in own zone. RNH recognizes plays somewhat better but Nuge has 8yrs NHL experience so one would expect that. Drai is getting better in the capacity because he is still young and learning, which is completely understandable.


    You completely ignored every point I made and came back with this lame nonsense that Drai makes tons of defensive errors (assuming that) and that why should he get a pass? That's your complete argument, as if somebody is giving him a pass.

    ...

    So that its a waste of time.
    "It's the system that wins. Everyone needs to buy in. Nobody gets to half *** it on defence because they are good on offence."

    Can we agree on that?

    Yes/No?

    I've addressed your points repeatedly. You're wrong. He's not particularly responsible in his own zone. It's the weak point in an otherwise strong game. It looks to me like he's recognized it, and is addressing it himself. He's a work in progress. Anyone but you can see it.

    YOU are giving him a pass. My debate is with YOU. Virtually everyone else in the game has been saying the same things I keep saying, including the Oilers coach. Your point always seems to come back to blaming all the other players.

    I've never said he makes tons of errors. It only takes one or two. He makes the same mistakes repeatedly, and it's cost the Oilers. They aren't related to talent, or effort, or the will to win, they are related to priorities, and playing the system the coach has established. They are straightforward to address. Anybody can see them. The coach can see them. Draisaitl can see them. They are errors of omission, rather than errors because he's trying to make a play.

    Why wouldn't you address it? Hurt feelings? The guy gets paid $8.5M a year.

    I watch the games. I watch a lot of other games too. I know what's expected of an elite centre. I've been watching hockey for over 50 years.

    Draisaitl's weak defensive play led directly to goals against in close games. That's a fact. The Oilers needed to win those games. That's a fact. The coach called him out forcibly. That's a fact. It's been pointed out by hockey media. That's a fact. He also scored in those games. That's a fact.

    He is paid very well relative to his teammates, and eats up a large % of space on a cap challenged team. That's also a fact.

    I hold the guy making $8.5M to a higher standard than I do the guy making a 10th of that.

    Leon Draisaitl is not the perfect hockey player. He's a young guy still learning some aspects of the game. If he works on this aspect of the game, he'll be a better player.

    You seem to see Draisaitl as above reproach, and take any criticism of the player, however justified, as an unjustified attack, as if I'm saying he's lousy, or the Oilers need to get rid of the guy, or that he's the problem. He's a core asset, an extremely valuable player, and he'll be a key part of this team for many years.

    In a sea of troubles over the previous decade, and counting, one really stands out - lack of accountability at the top.
    More made up garbage. You're not giving any facts, or substantiation. Essentially you're saying "lots of people say Drai is a liability defensively" You've cited Staples only.

    Every Oilers broadcast Specific examples of a great Draisaitl play are being cited. Drai gets huge minutes, gets considerable minutes on pk. Why do you think that is?

    McD makes more ill advised plays and this is increasing, and thus spends less time on the PK.


    Why are you not saying anything about McD flying the zone on the first Islanders goal creating an outnumbered situation that led to first goal and then taking a bad penalty leading to the second goal?


    The issue is not the critiquing of one player its why its selective. Before moahunters account got suspended its all I ever heard here that Drai is overpaid. lol. Drai is earning his contract more than McDavid is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    It's still an odd comparison to make. Rattie has, as far as I know, been healthy since he graduated junior and has done nothing much to distinguish himself. It's nice that he was a great player in junior, but that's 5 years behind him. We know he's a mediocre AHL player who had a little over a dozen decent games with the best player on the planet. Benson, on the other hand, has not had a single healthy season since he joined junior, essentially. We know what Rattie is capable of in the AHL and to a lesser extent the NHL: not much. We don't know much of anything about Benson at this point.

    Disagree. Much more value in Rattie imo. Some players just get a raw deal sometimes, it happens. Rattie looks like a good pickup and I just mentioned him because at this level he's showing he can play and even on a topline. The only thing might be better at is in two way play. But my take is Benson continues to have injury misfortune.


    Not sure why you think Rattie won't be capable of much. the Oilers are featuring him on topline and so presently think different.
    Let's revisit how monumentally bad Replacement is at judging prospects. See above. Rattie will be unlikely to see another NHL game once this season is over, because no other team in the NHL has as bad of a forward lineup as the Oilers. It's not even close. Meanwhile, Benson is nearly a point a game in his first AHL season, and part of a record setting win streak. Rattie was more like .66 and that's being an offense only winger, not a center in his first AHL season. To this point of the year, Rattie has managed a whopping 10 points! Yet in Replacement's opinion at the start of the year, Benson was already a failed prospect and had a "good chance he never even makes the NHL or sticks for more than a cup of coffee" while Rattie was clearly deserving of primo minutes on the top line because he scored a bunch in junior nearly 10 years ago.



    And before Replacement tries to twist my words: no, I'm not saying that Benson is a surefire prospect or NHL player. I just found it incredibly odd at the start of the season to write off a 20 year old who'd only played 5 games of professional hockey, while being all gung-ho about an actual failed prospect who was in the process of confirming he's not an NHL player on any team that is managed properly.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 22-02-2019 at 12:58 PM.

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    Connor McDavid suspended two games.
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    For that hit? McDavid didn't leave his feet off the ice to hit him. Maybe a game but 2?
    Last edited by envaneo; 22-02-2019 at 04:07 PM.
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    NHL is an absolute joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Connor McDavid suspended two games.
    The NHL is a sad joke
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    Why in this particular case? It was clearly a headshot. Maybe 2 games is a bit heavy given that there was no arm extension, jump, or injury. I think 1 game would have been reasonable. If we want to talk about inconsistency of officiating and supplemental discipline, then I'm all ears. But in this case, I'm not seeing the big deal.

    Reverse the positions of the players and imagine the uproar from Oilers fans about giving Leddy the chair...

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    I think Drew Remenda made a good point between the periods on that McDavid headshot on Letty. The entire sequence before that should have been called a penalty on Letty. If it was, then that following play never happens--McDavid doesn't get ****** off and make a dirty hit like that. Seemed like a reasonable observation to me, considering all of the non-calls that have been happening on McDavid since he entered the league.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Why in this particular case? It was clearly a headshot. Maybe 2 games is a bit heavy given that there was no arm extension, jump, or injury. I think 1 game would have been reasonable. If we want to talk about inconsistency of officiating and supplemental discipline, then I'm all ears. But in this case, I'm not seeing the big deal.

    Reverse the positions of the players and imagine the uproar from Oilers fans about giving Leddy the chair...
    Two games seems rather heavy-handed when one considers lighter suspensions over worse infractions, or how about the non-calls on players who have taken liberties with McDavid (i.e. Lindholm)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Why in this particular case? It was clearly a headshot. Maybe 2 games is a bit heavy given that there was no arm extension, jump, or injury. I think 1 game would have been reasonable. If we want to talk about inconsistency of officiating and supplemental discipline, then I'm all ears. But in this case, I'm not seeing the big deal.

    Reverse the positions of the players and imagine the uproar from Oilers fans about giving Leddy the chair...
    McDavid did hit him from behind as I recall seeing, I think.
    Last edited by envaneo; 22-02-2019 at 05:56 PM.
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  80. #880

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    It's still an odd comparison to make. Rattie has, as far as I know, been healthy since he graduated junior and has done nothing much to distinguish himself. It's nice that he was a great player in junior, but that's 5 years behind him. We know he's a mediocre AHL player who had a little over a dozen decent games with the best player on the planet. Benson, on the other hand, has not had a single healthy season since he joined junior, essentially. We know what Rattie is capable of in the AHL and to a lesser extent the NHL: not much. We don't know much of anything about Benson at this point.

    Disagree. Much more value in Rattie imo. Some players just get a raw deal sometimes, it happens. Rattie looks like a good pickup and I just mentioned him because at this level he's showing he can play and even on a topline. The only thing might be better at is in two way play. But my take is Benson continues to have injury misfortune.


    Not sure why you think Rattie won't be capable of much. the Oilers are featuring him on topline and so presently think different.
    Let's revisit how monumentally bad Replacement is at judging prospects. See above. Rattie will be unlikely to see another NHL game once this season is over, because no other team in the NHL has as bad of a forward lineup as the Oilers. It's not even close. Meanwhile, Benson is nearly a point a game in his first AHL season, and part of a record setting win streak. Rattie was more like .66 and that's being an offense only winger, not a center in his first AHL season. To this point of the year, Rattie has managed a whopping 10 points! Yet in Replacement's opinion at the start of the year, Benson was already a failed prospect and had a "good chance he never even makes the NHL or sticks for more than a cup of coffee" while Rattie was clearly deserving of primo minutes on the top line because he scored a bunch in junior nearly 10 years ago.



    And before Replacement tries to twist my words: no, I'm not saying that Benson is a surefire prospect or NHL player. I just found it incredibly odd at the start of the season to write off a 20 year old who'd only played 5 games of professional hockey, while being all gung-ho about an actual failed prospect who was in the process of confirming he's not an NHL player on any team that is managed properly.
    I feel vindicated that this is the best you got in this regard. Saying that Benson is a better prospect than Rattie even though Rattie's Junior career was far better than Benson. I lean a bit to bird in hand. Prospects are a dime a dozen past high picks, and you never know you got anything on the line on the basis of AHL results. You're astute enough to know that.


    That said Rattie has the talent, demonstrates it at times, and has had some streaks. Players too, get damaged as assets when not utilized properly at this level. We've seen that with several of our own picks. Like any prospect or rookie Rattie needs a somewhat idealized environment to grow in. The Oilers are rarely that environment, but I figured the team is so bereft of talent that Rattie would get prolonged looks. My Crystal ball didn't posit that Hitchcock, the worst possible coach scenario, would come here for round 2 of burying Rattie. The relationship in STL is well established and fans there are on record saying Rattie was not exactly Hitchcocks favorite player.


    Least I was right about Spooner and Wideman being junk additions and that Gagner part 2 would work out well here.


    in anycase Rattie vs Benson isn't done, and Benson is 21 in 2 weeks and doesn't have a SINGLE NHL game played. Additionally he has a lol 8 goals at the AHL level this whole season. Comically bad. Benson can apparently setup some plays but that's not what we are lacking in the lineup, we are lacking finish. If you think Benson has anything this team needs I guess you can think that.


    Really its humorous that you figured this was a gotcha moment.

    Finally, Rattie was last in Junior hockey 5.5 yrs ago, not 10, and it doesn't improve your argument any to stretch truth to that degree. YMMV. If it was me doing that, you would call it out.
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-02-2019 at 06:47 PM.
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  81. #881

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Why in this particular case? It was clearly a headshot. Maybe 2 games is a bit heavy given that there was no arm extension, jump, or injury. I think 1 game would have been reasonable. If we want to talk about inconsistency of officiating and supplemental discipline, then I'm all ears. But in this case, I'm not seeing the big deal.

    Reverse the positions of the players and imagine the uproar from Oilers fans about giving Leddy the chair...
    Here we agree. I would think 1 game due to no priors but the NHL gives 2 games for these infractions more commonly, and with any review of the game film, as another poster indicated it does seem intentional as McD was looking for retribution. In realtime I thought it was kind of inadvertent, or at least less planned. But looking at the whole sequence again it does appear that McD is looking at retribution. Who he is, or that he's on the receiving end a lot aren't mitigating and shouldn't be.
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  82. #882

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    For posterity, the quote Marcel attributed to me above, was in response to IanO stating matter of factly that Tyler Benson is a future NHL star, "Think Taylor Hall" lol

    So I was responding to ridiculous hyperbole. Its on the first page of the thread if anybody wants to peruse back in time and necromance anything else up.

    ps I was bang on about Gravel, and bang on about Darnell Nurse ramping up his offensive game this season. Those were prescient calls, nice of Marcel not to notice either even though its the same page. heh
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-02-2019 at 06:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Why in this particular case? It was clearly a headshot. Maybe 2 games is a bit heavy given that there was no arm extension, jump, or injury. I think 1 game would have been reasonable. If we want to talk about inconsistency of officiating and supplemental discipline, then I'm all ears. But in this case, I'm not seeing the big deal.

    Reverse the positions of the players and imagine the uproar from Oilers fans about giving Leddy the chair...
    Everything you said. Agreed.

    I'll add that I could see the suspension coming. The NHL can't afford to be seen as showing favouritism to star players regarding hits to the head. It was a hit to the head. It was McDavid. They're kind of stuck in a no win situation.

    It wasn't malicious.

    Virtanen got 2 for a similar hit, and Byron got 3 for leaving his feet on an uncharacteristic high hit into the boards.

    My problem is with the suspensions handed out to repeat offenders (Wilson, Gudas). I've never understood the Player's Union position in this regard. They seem only concerned with the size of the suspension, and not the health of the players.

    If it was me, Wilson would have sat out a season, and been kicked out of the league if he did it again. My sympathies lie strongly with the players on the receiving end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ...
    Hey.

    I watch the games. I probably watch too much hockey, sometimes two or three full games in a day. From 5pm until late, every single night, 7 nights a week, if there's a game being played, anywhere, my tv downstairs has a game on (my roommate is a freak like that). If I'm working upstairs, I might have a game on there too.

    These days every game is recorded. I rewind the ones I want to watch, sometimes early into the morning. Sometimes I'm paying close attention, other times I'm busy with something, maybe practicing, and listening for key plays to check out.

    I try to catch all the teams. I try to watch away broadcasts. I have my favourite announcer/colour combinations. I know what some rinks sound like.

    I was a rink rat since my early teens. When I wasn't watching, I was playing. I used to attend Oilers practices whenever I had a day off, as a young adult.

    I guarantee I've watched more hockey than you, given some of your firmly held beliefs. I should probably bring it up with my psychiatrist. It doesn't make my perspective, opinions, and/or conclusions automatically valid, but when I see something, don't tell me it didn't happen, or that I didn't see it.

    For every minute I've spent watching the game, there are some who watch a lot more than I do. I follow a lot of them on Twitter.

    Ridicule David Staples all you want, but the guy watches, and often rewatches, every minute of every game when he isn't coaching a kids team. I regularly disagree, but he does know what he's talking about, and if he doesn't, Bruce McCurdy is there to help. When he's counting things like grade A scoring chances, there is a general standard he applies along with his judgement. he's not a fool, and he's not making it up - a charge you seem fond of making, sans specific examples (don't bother now).

    I don't always agree with Staples or McCurdy, but I respect their perspective, and the work they put in to back it up.

    There are a lot of jerks on the hockey boards. I avoid them.

    I try to make it a point to be clear. I asked direct, yes/no questions. An answer would be nice. You don't have to agree with my conclusions. Sometimes I expect an argument.

    Here's why I feel the need to point this out. I said I missed the first period of a game. You twisted my words, repeatedly, to make it seem as if I didn't watch the game at all, or see what I saw. What everyone saw. Despite the fact I corrected you, and said I watched it on replay.

    Quit twisting my words. I've chosen them carefully.

    I don't appreciate it. I'm not going to deal with it anymore.

    Expecting a player to be better isn't disrespectful. Rather, it shows respect, for who they are, and what they're ultimately capable of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo
    It wasn't malicious.


    I'll disagree with you there. McDavid was peeved about getting mugged earlier in the shift. He knew exactly what he was doing on that hit, I can guarantee you that. He's got some plausible deniability in that his stick did deflect the puck, but as a lifelong hockey player and one who enjoyed laying big hits, I know that McDavid darn well knew what he was doing there and what part of Leddy he was going to catch. Heat of the moment and all that, but still, it was a dirty play by today's standards.

  86. #886

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ...
    Hey.

    I watch the games. I probably watch too much hockey, sometimes two or three full games in a day. From 5pm until late, every single night, 7 nights a week, if there's a game being played, anywhere, my tv downstairs has a game on (my roommate is a freak like that). If I'm working upstairs, I might have a game on there too.

    These days every game is recorded. I rewind the ones I want to watch, sometimes early into the morning. Sometimes I'm paying close attention, other times I'm busy with something, maybe practicing, and listening for key plays to check out.

    I try to catch all the teams. I try to watch away broadcasts. I have my favourite announcer/colour combinations. I know what some rinks sound like.

    I was a rink rat since my early teens. When I wasn't watching, I was playing. I used to attend Oilers practices whenever I had a day off, as a young adult.

    I guarantee I've watched more hockey than you, given some of your firmly held beliefs. I should probably bring it up with my psychiatrist. It doesn't make my perspective, opinions, and/or conclusions automatically valid, but when I see something, don't tell me it didn't happen, or that I didn't see it.

    For every minute I've spent watching the game, there are some who watch a lot more than I do. I follow a lot of them on Twitter.

    Ridicule David Staples all you want, but the guy watches, and often rewatches, every minute of every game when he isn't coaching a kids team. I regularly disagree, but he does know what he's talking about, and if he doesn't, Bruce McCurdy is there to help. When he's counting things like grade A scoring chances, there is a general standard he applies along with his judgement. he's not a fool, and he's not making it up - a charge you seem fond of making, sans specific examples (don't bother now).

    I don't always agree with Staples or McCurdy, but I respect their perspective, and the work they put in to back it up.

    There are a lot of jerks on the hockey boards. I avoid them.

    I try to make it a point to be clear. I asked direct, yes/no questions. An answer would be nice. You don't have to agree with my conclusions. Sometimes I expect an argument.

    Here's why I feel the need to point this out. I said I missed the first period of a game. You twisted my words, repeatedly, to make it seem as if I didn't watch the game at all, or see what I saw. What everyone saw. Despite the fact I corrected you, and said I watched it on replay.

    Quit twisting my words. I've chosen them carefully.

    I don't appreciate it. I'm not going to deal with it anymore.

    Expecting a player to be better isn't disrespectful. Rather, it shows respect, for who they are, and what they're ultimately capable of.
    Well lets move on.


    You've done the same things in the posts, twisting, assuming, writing into what I'm stating. I started responding in kind. Nobody likes that. I'll use an example. I was explaining ways in which Drai did play good D, giving examples, giving stats to back it up and you ignored all that entirely, didn't even mention it at all in any of your responses and instead kept saying "Why give Drai a pass defensively" I felt (not saying its the case) that our discussion was not with each other as much as talking over each other, so that neither of us were on the same page or replying to all the others points.

    In addition you completely ignored my questions, asked several times, on why you always seem to focus negatively on the one player, when all our offensive players are making the same mistakes. You want me to detail what the risk/reward scenario looks like in regards to Lucic, Kassian, almost anybody else on the team? When Kassian is cheating coverage on the wrong side of the puck and a defender slides in and gains that puck and keeps it in, and the same identical play had happened every other game, where are your comments on that. That type of play from a substandard player can also be viewed as egregious as the player does not cover or rebalance their mistakes and Kass can be a much better player than that as well. Of the two, Kass is certainly self limiting himself, is possessed with talent, and is content to be far less than he can be as a player, the team suffers. Lucic? could spend pages talking about that, but its not required. Everybody knows he's not delivering.

    I will say focus on a players payscale can sometimes be aside from the point of what they bring on the ice. All NHL players are paid too much imo, most pro sports players are. But aside from ticket purchase we're not paying that, the owners are. I'm more concerned, as a fan, of what a player brings on the ice and how the contribution contributes to winning as well as entertainment.

    You can think what you want regarding Staples. You were not privy apparently to the discussions, for years, that went on at hfboards and other blogs with Staples involved. Nor was I the only one critiquing his stat. The criticisms were valid and his replies invalidated. Intently watching hockey can just serve to magnify one's own bias looking actively for mistakes of certain players. But that focus can quickly zero in on some players and favor others. In anycase errors stats emanate from Baseball, and that sport is much more stop start play conducive to such a stat. Baseball due to its nature consists of thousands of nano plays each game, that can be broken down if one takes the time. Hockey is conversely a continuous flow sport where the actions of all players on ice impact all the other actions. For reasons like this its always harder to tie hockey down to statistical analysis or even observational break down.


    But there are things in how Drai is a puck holder, who starts, stops, speeds up and slows down games that causes people to state and infer he is a lazy player, whereas its just more of what he does. When he's puckholding he often spots a play, makes it, and absorbs punishment for doing it. Drai is to that degree not unlike a QB holding onto the ball extratime and trying to evade tackle and receiving more punishment because of it. That's just one example but I've seen thousands of posts (not saying you) that such play is lazy and not trying enough. In fact if you go to any board, and do a selective search of words Draisaitl, and lazy, you'll get tons of hits. Its huge distortion. He's one of the most motivated and involved players in the league and the macro stats certainly point to that. Because Drai is a Euro player, and a German player, there are facets of his game that are different to how we learn or play here. There are rote things he's learned to do that are effective. Some of these things are quasi soccer, and much like a midfielder would do. I think Drai is a harder read for a Canadian fan not as used to Soccer.


    Hopefully this was a better post.
    Last edited by Replacement; 25-02-2019 at 10:00 AM.
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  87. #887

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Why in this particular case? It was clearly a headshot. Maybe 2 games is a bit heavy given that there was no arm extension, jump, or injury. I think 1 game would have been reasonable. If we want to talk about inconsistency of officiating and supplemental discipline, then I'm all ears. But in this case, I'm not seeing the big deal.

    Reverse the positions of the players and imagine the uproar from Oilers fans about giving Leddy the chair...
    Everything you said. Agreed.

    I'll add that I could see the suspension coming. The NHL can't afford to be seen as showing favouritism to star players regarding hits to the head. It was a hit to the head. It was McDavid. They're kind of stuck in a no win situation.

    It wasn't malicious.

    .
    As far as malicious there was a connection between a prior hit and McD tracking back and evening the score. As so quickly happens in hockey McD then ended up in that most guilting situations in hockey where our actions then hurt another player in a moment of anger. So that theres a difference between the action, and the result.

    McD intended to pay back with a hit, probably threw in a bit of elbow to head out of frustration. From his own statements McD did not want to injure the player or send him to concussion protocal, just to message back that he can give back. So the hit was completely intended, but the result was not. Still, the action can be viewed as malicious. It was certainly retribution.

    In hockey review when actions are tied, and precedents result in antecedents this is looked at in the reviews. They look for exactly that type of context. They can't infer intent, but if the player just got drilled, and McD did, not long before, and reacts back then the prior event provides context for the reaction retribution. Hockey, right or wrong tends to focus on the response reaction more than initial instigations. But also that the first hit, on McD was thought to be a legal hockey hit, and I agree with that assessment.

    Just a weird tie in but this suspension occurred because McD has been boiling over for weeks about how much abuse, interference, illegal shots, slashes etc he absorbs. His frustration is completely vindicated. But isn't right, or allowed. McD frustration boiled over at one other person and he took it out on them. I think I did similar in this thread, not excusing myself. But its part of what we humans do when frustrated.

    cheers to you and everybody reading.
    Last edited by Replacement; 23-02-2019 at 08:57 AM.
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  88. #888
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo
    It wasn't malicious.


    I'll disagree with you there. McDavid was peeved about getting mugged earlier in the shift. He knew exactly what he was doing on that hit, I can guarantee you that. He's got some plausible deniability in that his stick did deflect the puck, but as a lifelong hockey player and one who enjoyed laying big hits, I know that McDavid darn well knew what he was doing there and what part of Leddy he was going to catch. Heat of the moment and all that, but still, it was a dirty play by today's standards.
    I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I watched the play again, but not what led up to it. You're right. He does appear to be entirely aware of what he was doing. You can't miss it. He saw Leddy with his head down, saw his chance to take a shot, and he took it.

    Maybe he was looking for a payback. It probably should have been a game misconduct.

    I remember Ken Dryden taking issue with the term "finishing your check" years ago. We both know what it usually means. The puck has gone, but you continue through your hit, "finishing" what you initiated.

    The problem with that approach is you have a choice not to finish your check, to let up, and you don't, which makes it a late hit. It's been used as an excuse by just about every head shot artist in the game. The rules have changed since those days, for the better.

    McDavid often gives as good as he gets.

    2 games was the right suspension in line with similar first time offences by other players not known for their dirty play. You can't hit a guy in the head, and you can't make excuses.

    The howls on Twitter were a little much. Some were suggesting a double standard for McDavid. If they had let him off, THAT would be the double standard. The most ironic were those suggesting the Oilers appeal, play McDavid for the Anaheim game, and have him miss the game in Toronto.

    Talk about biting off one's nose to spite one's face.
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    I thought the Oilers played a good game last night. They've been playing better the last few games.

    It looked like a legit team. Nobody played poorly.

    Josh Currie's intensity is exactly what the Oilers need right now. He's 100% engaged. I hope it's infectious.

    Gagner is an NHLer, and that's nice to see. He's a much smarter player than he used to be. I hope he can keep it up.

    Sekera has moments where he struggles, to be expected after coming back from so long, but overall he looks fully recovered, and that's really encouraging.

    Colby Cave looks like a decent 4th line centre.

    And Draisaitl was engaged in the defensive zone, playing his position, doing the things he needs to do consistently. He's been better every game since being called out by everyone except you-know-who. Credit to him.

    Lucic has been playing really well for a few games. So has Kassian.

    Reider looked good too. I liked his game. When a guy needs a goal as badly as he does, but still plays the game the right way, not cheating on offence, and has faith in the process, I'm impressed.

    I keep having to check to see if Brodziak is even dressed. Barely notice the guy. Not sure if that's a good thing, or a bad thing.

    I actually like the Oilers D. Wouldn't put them in the top half of the league, but with everyone healthy it actually makes some sense.

    This team, as it stands, can compete on a nightly basis, even without McDavid. I think they needed to prove it to themselves.

    That's why I think the suspension could actually be good for the team. They get to come together as a team, and McD gets a couple games rest.

    Unfortunately they could win 10 in a row and still be 6 points out, with the hole they've dug.

    They still need to keep working on the process, and try to win every game. It's the only way to build.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I thought the Oilers played a good game last night. They've been playing better the last few games.

    It looked like a legit team. Nobody played poorly.



    I actually like the Oilers D. Wouldn't put them in the top half of the league, but with everyone healthy it actually makes some sense.

    This team, as it stands, can compete on a nightly basis, even without McDavid. I think they needed to prove it to themselves.

    That's why I think the suspension could actually be good for the team. They get to come together as a team, and McD gets a couple games rest.

    Unfortunately they could win 10 in a row and still be 6 points out, with the hole they've dug.

    They still need to keep working on the process, and try to win every game. It's the only way to build.
    Nobody was really calling out Draisaitl other than you. You're just trolling earlier I can only assume, thus my reaction. Which is fine, we all have our dislikes.

    In anycase it seems particularly strange that you think Drai would pay attention to some randoms online or pundits when his coaches are all impressed with his play and have been all along as they should be.

    That you think there is a reasonable context for a view that DRai has been playing subpar this season or that his play has been lacking and just recently started playing good is incomprehensible to me.

    Which is really why I reacted to your several posts on him in the first place.

    He's been better value this season than even McD.


    As to your other points we were playing in my view the worst lineup in the entire NHL. The Ducks are -51, just an absolutely awful club. Wouldn't make much about beating that club. This team can't compete nightly, and that should be obvious. Does 61 games not give you an impression of what this team does? The Oilers played well on the entire 3 game road trip and lost every game. This is just a bad lineup severely lacking in depth. That Gagner can come into this lineup and immediately look like one of the best players is telling. (and I like Gagner)
    Last edited by Replacement; 24-02-2019 at 05:40 PM.
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    Are you done telling me I didn't see the things I saw, read the things I read, and heard the things I heard?

    Does the coach count as a random source?

    If you're not done, I am.
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  93. #893

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Are you done telling me I didn't see the things I saw, read the things I read, and heard the things I heard?

    Does the coach count as a random source?

    If you're not done, I am.
    The coach that puts this "defensively bad" player out on the PK and for considerable minutes, every game? Or that has put him out on the ice more than any other forward?


    Its hard to know what you're talking about in regards to the coach when you don't cite anything.


    Look, you took an untenable position that Drai is in some way severely lacking defensively, as a hockey player. A view that can only lead me to believe you don't know how to even evaluate games or players. He's among the most responsible forwards on the team and has been all season. Plus he's 23 and getting better.
    Last edited by Replacement; 24-02-2019 at 06:23 PM.
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    Usually the Oilers are pretty quiet on free agent frenzy. I hope we keep Chiasson.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Are you done telling me I didn't see the things I saw, read the things I read, and heard the things I heard?

    Does the coach count as a random source?

    If you're not done, I am.
    The coach that puts this "defensively bad" player out on the PK and for considerable minutes, every game? Or that has put him out on the ice more than any other forward?


    Its hard to know what you're talking about in regards to the coach when you don't cite anything.


    Look, you took an untenable position that Drai is in some way severely lacking defensively, as a hockey player. A view that can only lead me to believe you don't know how to even evaluate games or players. He's among the most responsible forwards on the team and has been all season. Plus he's 23 and getting better.
    I brought up exactly what he said. You know it. It was all over the media. The Edmonton Journal and Edmonton Sun wrote lead sports stories on it the next day. It was all over Twitter. It was discussed on every hockey panel.

    This is indistinguishable from what's known as gaslighting. It's abusive, and you need to stop telling me what I saw, heard, said, or thought.

    I'm done corresponding with you in any way. Do not address me. Don't mention my name, or my posts.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    " On Leon Draisaitl’s weak backcheck on San Jose’s second goal, Hitchcock described it as a “symptom of something of much bigger. To me, it’s priorities and it’s what’s important. I mean, look at the fifth goal, it was a change goal, we just dribbling went to the bench (again this was Draisaitl), turned it over in the neutral zone and just walked to the bench and changed. It just can’t be acceptable.” "

    I'm only posting this because I'm sick of being told I'm making it up. There are plenty more examples. I figure QUOTING the local Oilers media QUOTING the coach saying virtually the exact thing I was saying should qualify as something that actually happened.

    I'll also point out that Draisaitl has picked it up since, and the coach made a point of praising his 200ft game before the last game.

    Now back to the Blues vs Wild. You know who's fantastic playing centre in his own end? Ryan OReiily.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

  97. #897

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Are you done telling me I didn't see the things I saw, read the things I read, and heard the things I heard?

    Does the coach count as a random source?

    If you're not done, I am.
    The coach that puts this "defensively bad" player out on the PK and for considerable minutes, every game? Or that has put him out on the ice more than any other forward?


    Its hard to know what you're talking about in regards to the coach when you don't cite anything.


    Look, you took an untenable position that Drai is in some way severely lacking defensively, as a hockey player. A view that can only lead me to believe you don't know how to even evaluate games or players. He's among the most responsible forwards on the team and has been all season. Plus he's 23 and getting better.
    I brought up exactly what he said. You know it. It was all over the media. The Edmonton Journal and Edmonton Sun wrote lead sports stories on it the next day. It was all over Twitter. It was discussed on every hockey panel.

    This is indistinguishable from what's known as gaslighting. It's abusive, and you need to stop telling me what I saw, heard, said, or thought.

    I'm done corresponding with you in any way. Do not address me. Don't mention my name, or my posts.


    I had asked you because you didn't even state what you are referring to that Hitchcock stated. Am I supposed to read your mind? You do know that coach speaks to the media every game, right?

    The irony is you are doing what you state not to do in the same post.


    You don't get to tell me whether I can or cannot respond after berating me. If you don't want me to respond, maybe don't incite response, in a derisive reply to me.


    Fair?
    Last edited by Replacement; 25-02-2019 at 10:53 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  98. #898

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    " On Leon Draisaitl’s weak backcheck on San Jose’s second goal, Hitchcock described it as a “symptom of something of much bigger. To me, it’s priorities and it’s what’s important. I mean, look at the fifth goal, it was a change goal, we just dribbling went to the bench (again this was Draisaitl), turned it over in the neutral zone and just walked to the bench and changed. It just can’t be acceptable.” "

    I'm only posting this because I'm sick of being told I'm making it up. There are plenty more examples. I figure QUOTING the local Oilers media QUOTING the coach saying virtually the exact thing I was saying should qualify as something that actually happened.

    I'll also point out that Draisaitl has picked it up since, and the coach made a point of praising his 200ft game before the last game.

    Now back to the Blues vs Wild. You know who's fantastic playing centre in his own end? Ryan OReiily.

    That was not the verbatim quote, the context, and the comment was generally in regards to the teamplay, and not exclusively regarding Draisaitl. Interesting that you even invent that the comment about line changes was about Draisaitl. Nuge for instance is notorious at coasting line changes, and was again in that game. Drai, if he was slow to the bench would have the excuse of being drastically outplayed every game and being exhausted.

    In anycase I'm fine with not responding to you further.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  99. #899
    C2E Long Term Contributor
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    No trades for the Oilers today. What if they did swing a Connor Brown/Matt Benning deal with the Leafs?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  100. #900
    C2E SME
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    Another close game tonight in Nashville, but a shootout loss.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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