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Thread: Younger Canadians Not Interested In Raising Families In Condos: Study

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    Default Younger Canadians Not Interested In Raising Families In Condos: Study

    A picket fence and a backyard are still the gold standard, even for millennials.


    Canada's young families are giving up on the dream of owning a single-family home, but it's not out of a desire to live an urban high-rise life — the cost has simply become too prohibitive.


    That's the key takeaway from a new study carried out by Sotheby's International Realty Canada, which found that, if money were no object, 83 per cent of young families would buy a detached home as opposed to any other type of housing. Only 5 per cent prefer condos.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/1...ip_a_23576914/

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    Third post of this on C2E
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  3. #3

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    third times the charm, however as far as I can tell, this is the first time it has a dedicated thread, and not caught up in "Everyone should live downtown or I will look down on them" threads you own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Third post of this on C2E
    You've always hated duplicate posts, eh what ?
    Last edited by Big Bird; 09-11-2018 at 01:30 PM.

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    Can you blame them? I learned my lesson and canít wait to sell my condo. Itís better to be in a situation where your property may be older, but you own the land and are in control of your own maintenance destiny.

    Living in condos suck. Thereís no happy middle for neighbors being respectful or becoming problem tenants and I for one feel itís not natural to live so close to others.

    Thatís just my opinion, and I feel youíre gonna see the next generation run for the suburbs.

  6. #6

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    The summary says it all.


    Will GTA Homebuyers Really Give Up Ground-Related Homes For Apartments?
    August 15, 2016


    https://www.ryerson.ca/content/dam/c...apartments.pdf




    More Americans Move to Detached Houses | Newgeography.com

    2011
    “In defiance of the conventional wisdom in the national media and among most planning professionals, Americans continue not only to prefer, but to move into single family detached houses. Data from the 2010 American Community Survey indicates that such housing attracted 79.2% of the new households in the 51 major metropolitan areas (over 1,000,000 population) over the past decade.

    In contrast ...”

    http://www.newgeography.com/content/...etached-houses





    Condo hell

    “In some buildings, the rule book governing what owners can and can’t do with their property can span 70 pages. Disputes over issues such as pets, squeaky floors and visitor parking spots are escalating into epic and costly court battles. “They are little fiefdoms,” says Don Campbell, senior analyst with the Real Estate Investment Network, who owns several condos in B.C. “Each one has a king. Many of the people who get elected to the boards have time on their hands, and this is the only place in their world where they have power. Unfortunately, that starts to go to their heads.” ...”

    ...
    “To understand how quickly we’ve shifted from detached homes to condominiums, consider that condos made up less than 10 per cent of all homes built in our 10 largest cities before 1981, but more than a third of those built in the last decade—around 413,000 out of roughly 1.2 million new homes. While the majority of those are clustered in the big cities—Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver—condominiums are going up everywhere from St. John’s to Regina to Victoria. Cities as different as Guelph, Ont., and Whitehorse are now building more condos than single-detached houses. More than 1.6 million Canadian households, or 12 per cent, now live in condos. Despite the focus on the investor market, close to 70 per cent of the people living in condos are owners, not renters.”
    ...


    “ “You’re selling someone on a carefree lifestyle and then, in the same breath, you turn around and ask someone who didn’t want the responsibility of looking after a detached home if they mind...,” says Tom LePage, a former condo property manager turned consultant in Collingwood, Ont. However, once they get into power, LePage says many condo boards end up operating less like businesses and more like ...

    “It’s gotten to a level where people who are on these boards take it as: ‘It’s my job to make sure that you’re in your unit at 10 p.m., the lights are out and I want to know you’re ...”...


    “That’s particularly problematic because developers are churning out condos filled with one-bedroom units, which attract precisely the two demographics least accustomed to communal living: first...”


    https://www.macleans.ca/society/life/condo-hell/



    Last edited by KC; 09-11-2018 at 01:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    third times the charm, however as far as I can tell, this is the first time it has a dedicated thread, and not caught up in "Everyone should live downtown or I will look down on them" threads you own.
    You have to be a special kind of tone deaf to complain about a topic being posted in multiple threads whislt simultaneously spamming every thread imaginable with your identical twitter photos. That’s a slow clap !
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    Again, are we surprised by this?
    www.decl.org

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    Surprised? You should be. You clamor all the time how people want to live in condos and raise families. They don't. In Edmonton, it's not even a matter of economics as our housing market is still fairly affordable, especially considering those in the study. perhaps, surprisingly enough, downtown needs to be what downtown is. A great place for the 20 somethings (and those 30 somethings that still think/act like they are 25) and empty nesters.

    Surprised ? no? Maybe a wake up call for some. Very likely.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    third times the charm, however as far as I can tell, this is the first time it has a dedicated thread, and not caught up in "Everyone should live downtown or I will look down on them" threads you own.
    You have to be a special kind of tone deaf to complain about a topic being posted in multiple threads whislt simultaneously spamming every thread imaginable with your identical twitter photos. Thatís a slow clap !
    Amen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Surprised? You should be. You clamor all the time how people want to live in condos and raise families. They don't. In Edmonton, it's not even a matter of economics as our housing market is still fairly affordable, especially considering those in the study. perhaps, surprisingly enough, downtown needs to be what downtown is. A great place for the 20 somethings (and those 30 somethings that still think/act like they are 25) and empty nesters.

    Surprised ? no? Maybe a wake up call for some. Very likely.
    Not at all and as expressed in two other places, we want to make central Edmonton and in particular the Downtown a more attractive, inclusive, expansive and safe place to be for everyone; that includes families.
    www.decl.org

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    Well, as long as you're happy with 500 sq ft with two bedrooms that better resemble broom closets.

    I admire your enthusiasm Ian, but price point matters to young families and when you can get a three bedroom home @ 12-1600 sq. feet for the price of 800 sq. ft. condo - the choice becomes easy.

    Too easy, and who can blame them. I certainly didn't blame the family down the hall when they moved out within months of having their first child.
    Last edited by McBoo; 13-11-2018 at 10:54 AM.
    ... gobsmacked

  13. #13

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    if there was a market for kid friendly condos they would build them.. until theres a demand can we have the downtown whiners stop pretending like this is needed.

    It's not... come back to reality.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Surprised? You should be. You clamor all the time how people want to live in condos and raise families. They don't. In Edmonton, it's not even a matter of economics as our housing market is still fairly affordable, especially considering those in the study. perhaps, surprisingly enough, downtown needs to be what downtown is. A great place for the 20 somethings (and those 30 somethings that still think/act like they are 25) and empty nesters.

    Surprised ? no? Maybe a wake up call for some. Very likely.
    Not at all and as expressed in two other places, we want to make central Edmonton and in particular the Downtown a more attractive, inclusive, expansive and safe place to be for everyone; that includes families.
    Sounds like you just dont get it, don't want to get it, refuse to listen. But hey, if you like spinning your wheels and not getting any results... When you and the rest of your collective, that should I mention, seems to be grasping reality more and more, finally come down to earth, don't say I didn't tell you so.
    Instead of spending so much time, effort and money on trying to make a place for those that don't wanna be there, maybe make it something for those that do, or lose both. Know your demographics and target audience, and really win that.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    if there was a market for kid friendly condos they would build them.. until theres a demand can we have the downtown whiners stop pretending like this is needed.

    It's not... come back to reality.
    We designed the markets we currently have. We can design the markets we want to have. Change zoning. Change the world.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Third post of this on C2E
    oh the irony.
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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Surprised? You should be. You clamor all the time how people want to live in condos and raise families. They don't. In Edmonton, it's not even a matter of economics as our housing market is still fairly affordable, especially considering those in the study. perhaps, surprisingly enough, downtown needs to be what downtown is. A great place for the 20 somethings (and those 30 somethings that still think/act like they are 25) and empty nesters.

    Surprised ? no? Maybe a wake up call for some. Very likely.

    Not at all and as expressed in two other places, we want to make central Edmonton and in particular the Downtown a more attractive, inclusive, expansive and safe place to be for everyone; that includes families.
    "Daddy, what's that on the fancy sidewalk?"

    "That's vomit dear. The sign that downtown Edmonton is a vibrant place to be."

    Maybe if downtown was more concerned with keeping the sidewalks clean instead of looking all fancy, more people would want to live there.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Surprised? You should be. You clamor all the time how people want to live in condos and raise families. They don't. In Edmonton, it's not even a matter of economics as our housing market is still fairly affordable, especially considering those in the study. perhaps, surprisingly enough, downtown needs to be what downtown is. A great place for the 20 somethings (and those 30 somethings that still think/act like they are 25) and empty nesters.

    Surprised ? no? Maybe a wake up call for some. Very likely.

    Not at all and as expressed in two other places, we want to make central Edmonton and in particular the Downtown a more attractive, inclusive, expansive and safe place to be for everyone; that includes families.
    "Daddy, what's that on the fancy sidewalk?"

    "That's vomit dear. The sign that downtown Edmonton is a vibrant place to be."

    Maybe if downtown was more concerned with keeping the sidewalks clean instead of looking all fancy, more people would want to live there.
    ... have you been to any real metropolitan area in the last 50 years?

    go to toronto right now. tell me how clean their sidewalks are.
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    This thread is irrelevant to RE&D and should be moved to the Life in Edmonton section, first topic: Family Friendly Neighborhood.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Surprised? You should be. You clamor all the time how people want to live in condos and raise families. They don't. In Edmonton, it's not even a matter of economics as our housing market is still fairly affordable, especially considering those in the study. perhaps, surprisingly enough, downtown needs to be what downtown is. A great place for the 20 somethings (and those 30 somethings that still think/act like they are 25) and empty nesters.

    Surprised ? no? Maybe a wake up call for some. Very likely.

    Not at all and as expressed in two other places, we want to make central Edmonton and in particular the Downtown a more attractive, inclusive, expansive and safe place to be for everyone; that includes families.
    "Daddy, what's that on the fancy sidewalk?"

    "That's vomit dear. The sign that downtown Edmonton is a vibrant place to be."

    Maybe if downtown was more concerned with keeping the sidewalks clean instead of looking all fancy, more people would want to live there.
    ... have you been to any real metropolitan area in the last 50 years?

    go to toronto right now. tell me how clean their sidewalks are.
    Maybe when our housing prices and commuting distances get to the same level as Toronto, we can take pride in our big city, vomit covered sidewalks. Until then, I'd like the city and/or DBA to put some effort into keeping the sidewalks clean and the trash containers empty instead of thinking that nice, new sidewalks will attract people downtown even if they look like a dumpster.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Surprised? You should be. You clamor all the time how people want to live in condos and raise families. They don't. In Edmonton, it's not even a matter of economics as our housing market is still fairly affordable, especially considering those in the study. perhaps, surprisingly enough, downtown needs to be what downtown is. A great place for the 20 somethings (and those 30 somethings that still think/act like they are 25) and empty nesters.

    Surprised ? no? Maybe a wake up call for some. Very likely.

    Not at all and as expressed in two other places, we want to make central Edmonton and in particular the Downtown a more attractive, inclusive, expansive and safe place to be for everyone; that includes families.
    "Daddy, what's that on the fancy sidewalk?"

    "That's vomit dear. The sign that downtown Edmonton is a vibrant place to be."

    Maybe if downtown was more concerned with keeping the sidewalks clean instead of looking all fancy, more people would want to live there.
    ... have you been to any real metropolitan area in the last 50 years?

    go to toronto right now. tell me how clean their sidewalks are.
    Maybe when our housing prices and commuting distances get to the same level as Toronto, we can take pride in our big city, vomit covered sidewalks. Until then, I'd like the city and/or DBA to put some effort into keeping the sidewalks clean and the trash containers empty instead of thinking that nice, new sidewalks will attract people downtown even if they look like a dumpster.
    What??? lol

    so in order to have vomit covered sidewalks you need a "commute etc" like toronto as a precursor???

    im also sure edmonton has WAY better commute times than the GTA.
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  22. #22

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    Young, rich and totally not buying a house
    https://torontolife.com/city/life/sp...ion-manifesto/





    Stuck in Condoland


    In a city where space is at a premium, tiny condos are the new family home. Learning to survive in 700 square feet



    “Everything that happened to Shannon and Paul in the last few years is also happening to the city itself, shaped by forces greater than any of them. Toronto has been swept up in a maelstrom of human and economic migration that has swelled its population in the core. Shannon and Paul bought into the New Toronto brand: the vertical city of luxury living, cultural experience, Momofuku food and trendy boutiques. That’s how the lifestyle is marketed by politicians and developers alike, and it’s incredibly appealing to young adults in all their forms: staid professionals, graduating millennials, hipsters.

    Now their lives are changing, in a wave that could turn out to be as big as the one that herded them downtown: they are becoming parents. Downtown Toronto is being reshaped by the latest baby boom. The total number of *preschool-age kids is rising fastest where condo towers are going up, and nowhere is the demographic shift happening more intensely than in the crane-addled area south of Queen from University to Dufferin; there, the number of kids under age five has increased since 2006 by a whopping 65 per cent. Toronto is bearing witness to the birth of a new generational phenomenon: the Condo Kid.

    And the city is welcoming its Condo Kids, in essence, by putting their cribs in the alcove nursery that condo marketers call a “den.” The real estate tracking firm Urbanation says that, as of last March, there are more than 25,000 condo units under construction in the former City of Toronto, and few of them will have more than two bedrooms. Only 21 of the 50 projects in pre-construction will have three-bedroom units. Even the units with two bedrooms are getting smaller: the average size of a condo in the GTA has dropped precipitously since 2009, from well over 900 square feet to 797 square feet today. Singles in the city are coupling up, having kids and looking for bigger homes, yet developers continue to flood the landscape with ever-tinier units—a situation abetted by a lack of planning and enabled by politicians. A quiet revolution is underway in how Toronto raises kids, one that was perfectly predictable but for which the city has failed to prepare. A whole generation of families are finding themselves stuck in their starter homes.”

    ...
    “Condos are the only affordable option when the average detached Toronto home costs $965,670. The reason prices have shot so high is because no one is building new detached or semi-detached homes for the city’s emerging glut of new families. For developers, the payoff of condo construction far outstrips that of detached housing. ...”




    https://torontolife.com/city/life/stuck-in-condoland/


    The Bank of Mom and Dad: confessions of a propped up generationIt seems like every 30-something couple has an embarrassing financial secret: their boomer parents are covering their mortgages, child-care costs and other expenses
    https://torontolife.com/city/life/th...f-mom-and-dad/
    Last edited by KC; 10-11-2018 at 07:21 PM.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Surprised? You should be. You clamor all the time how people want to live in condos and raise families. They don't. In Edmonton, it's not even a matter of economics as our housing market is still fairly affordable, especially considering those in the study. perhaps, surprisingly enough, downtown needs to be what downtown is. A great place for the 20 somethings (and those 30 somethings that still think/act like they are 25) and empty nesters.

    Surprised ? no? Maybe a wake up call for some. Very likely.

    Not at all and as expressed in two other places, we want to make central Edmonton and in particular the Downtown a more attractive, inclusive, expansive and safe place to be for everyone; that includes families.
    "Daddy, what's that on the fancy sidewalk?"

    "That's vomit dear. The sign that downtown Edmonton is a vibrant place to be."

    Maybe if downtown was more concerned with keeping the sidewalks clean instead of looking all fancy, more people would want to live there.


    ... have you been to any real metropolitan area in the last 50 years?

    go to toronto right now. tell me how clean their sidewalks are.
    Maybe when our housing prices and commuting distances get to the same level as Toronto, we can take pride in our big city, vomit covered sidewalks. Until then, I'd like the city and/or DBA to put some effort into keeping the sidewalks clean and the trash containers empty instead of thinking that nice, new sidewalks will attract people downtown even if they look like a dumpster.
    What??? lol

    so in order to have vomit covered sidewalks you need a "commute etc" like toronto as a precursor???

    im also sure edmonton has WAY better commute times than the GTA.
    That's the point. It's easy and fast and cheap to commute from the most outlying part of Edmonton to the core compared to Toronto or, to use your words "any real metropolitan area". That's why their cores have dense residential and ours doesn't. Which is why it's amazing to me that we can't even keep our relatively unoccupied downtown cleaner. But no, vomit and trash and overflowing trash bins and sand from the winter lasting months past the snow.

    Imagine how crappy it would be if our downtown had the number of people living and working downtown as Toronto does. You'd be hip deep.

    But let's make fancy sidewalks and custom designed light standards our focus.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    third times the charm, however as far as I can tell, this is the first time it has a dedicated thread, and not caught up in "Everyone should live downtown or I will look down on them" threads you own.
    You have to be a special kind of tone deaf to complain about a topic being posted in multiple threads whislt simultaneously spamming every thread imaginable with your identical twitter photos. Thatís a slow clap !
    Amen
    I think we can all see the irony there, including IanO. But if you're going to constantly complain about his duplicate posts in different threads (even when applicable), then don't do it yourself. I believe that was his point.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Surprised? You should be. You clamor all the time how people want to live in condos and raise families. They don't. In Edmonton, it's not even a matter of economics as our housing market is still fairly affordable, especially considering those in the study. perhaps, surprisingly enough, downtown needs to be what downtown is. A great place for the 20 somethings (and those 30 somethings that still think/act like they are 25) and empty nesters.

    Surprised ? no? Maybe a wake up call for some. Very likely.
    And what are 30 somethings supposed to think/act like? Area of the city and type of dwelling they live in aside, are they all supposed to be married with kids just because that's the point in your life that you may or may not have done those things? Sounds like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder...

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    ^MDH is absolutely correct. @medwards - the reality is that the market is diverse. As for living downtown is for '20 somethings (and those 30 somethings that still think/act like they are 25) and empty nesters' essentially demonstrates that you really don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.


  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    ^MDH is absolutely correct. @medwards - the reality is that the market is diverse. As for living downtown is for '20 somethings (and those 30 somethings that still think/act like they are 25) and empty nesters' essentially demonstrates that you really don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

    HAH. i wish i could afford living downtown in my late 20s.

    edit. wrong quote. but you get the point.
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  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    ^MDH is absolutely correct. @medwards - the reality is that the market is diverse. As for living downtown is for '20 somethings (and those 30 somethings that still think/act like they are 25) and empty nesters' essentially demonstrates that you really don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

    cute meme, but what I say is true.... and nobody has yet corrected me, outside of saying "your wrong duhhhhhh" https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/1...ip_a_23576914/

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    Where has Ian said that the majority of young families want to live in condos/apartments or row houses? Or even that they should want to? All I've seen him say in this thread and in the past is that it's important to have that option for those that ARE interested.

    Great job beating the hell out of that strawman, though. Give yourself a pat on the back.

  30. #30

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    Its been implied multiple times all over these forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Can you blame them? I learned my lesson and canít wait to sell my condo. Itís better to be in a situation where your property may be older, but you own the land and are in control of your own maintenance destiny.

    Living in condos suck. Thereís no happy middle for neighbors being respectful or becoming problem tenants and I for one feel itís not natural to live so close to others.

    Thatís just my opinion, and I feel youíre gonna see the next generation run for the suburbs.
    The obvious solution to avoiding the drawbacks of condominium ownership while maintaining affordability is non-condominium rowhousing. Judging by recent advertising, at least a few developers seem to be catching on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Where has Ian said that the majority of young families want to live in condos/apartments or row houses? Or even that they should want to? All I've seen him say in this thread and in the past is that it's important to have that option for those that ARE interested.

    Great job beating the hell out of that strawman, though. Give yourself a pat on the back.
    Thanks Marcel. It is all about options, not forcing people to do anything. I have chatted with more than a few folks who wanted to stay Downtown, but needed something more akin to a townhouse or semi or even low-rise with courtyard and there are very few options for them at the moment and so they left. The goal is not to require or indoctrinate, but rather encourage and support.
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  33. #33

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    So the solution is "more akin to a townhouse or semi or even low-rise with courtyard " but we aren't seeing that, and if we do, its only a few units a year... Those developments just don't do well in a high rise neighbourhood, and if someone did build townhouses, the price for the land would make it a non-starter for most.

  34. #34

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    The ship has sailed for that sort of mid density downtown, probably for most of Oliver and Strathcona too.

    It should be allowed where it's the next step in the evolution of the neighbourhood - all those central mature neighbourhoods where the housing stock is 50-60 years old and ready for renewal...but if so many people get up in arms about skinny homes I don't have much hope.
    There can only be one.

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    Keep in mind that many families CURRENTLY live in apartment/condos in the Downtown as we speak. Our building had 5 at one point.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    So the solution is "more akin to a townhouse or semi or even low-rise with courtyard " but we aren't seeing that, and if we do, its only a few units a year... Those developments just don't do well in a high rise neighbourhood, and if someone did build townhouses, the price for the land would make it a non-starter for most.
    there's more solutions than that...

    instead of moving from one straw man to another maybe you could research what takes place in other markets?

    or maybe you could simply try and avoid posting non-contributing posts out of spite or whatever else drives you to post what you do sometimes.

    IanO can be one of our more tone deaf participants but that's no excuse to be rude and disrespectful to the rest of the forum every chance you get.
    Last edited by kcantor; 13-11-2018 at 12:50 PM.
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  37. #37

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    I recall a lot of discussion a number of years ago by downtown enthusiasts was about stopping suburban sprawl, stopping subsidizing suburban roads etc. Basically putting any and all suburbanites on a guilt trip.

    Then about 5 or 6 years ago it started to come up in discussions how many of the downtown buildings were adult only and how few were family friendly. Something the downtown enthusiasts never mentioned maybe because they never saw the need themselves for such allowances in housing stock.

    Personally I was somewhat asstounded that these people had been so vigorously talking up downtown for everyone* (and talking down the suburbs) when the reality was that it wasn’t even welcoming of everyone.


    * similarly there was bashing the funicular by able bodied childless guys with no thought to the accessibility needs of others.

  38. #38

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    Even if the majority of families don't want to live in condos, that's not a good reason to stop making downtown and central edmonton more child friendly. Typically, when a downtown is kid friendly, it's better for everybody. More green space, playgrounds, walkable streets, and good public amenities are good attributes to have in all neighbourhoods of a city. Even if you don't live downtown, it makes it a more enjoyable place to visit if it's a friendly place for kids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
    Even if the majority of families don't want to live in condos, that's not a good reason to stop making downtown and central edmonton more child friendly. Typically, when a downtown is kid friendly, it's better for everybody. More green space, playgrounds, walkable streets, and good public amenities are good attributes to have in all neighbourhoods of a city. Even if you don't live downtown, it makes it a more enjoyable place to visit if it's a friendly place for kids.
    EXACTLY!

    A relatively well-known urban planner, Peter Kagayama - for the love of cities, talks about how dog friendly cities are incredible for families and anyone for that matter. Same idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
    Even if the majority of families don't want to live in condos, that's not a good reason to stop making downtown and central edmonton more child friendly. Typically, when a downtown is kid friendly, it's better for everybody. More green space, playgrounds, walkable streets, and good public amenities are good attributes to have in all neighbourhoods of a city. Even if you don't live downtown, it makes it a more enjoyable place to visit if it's a friendly place for kids.
    this is the essence of "downtown is for everyone" - not necessarily to live and not necessarily all of the time but certainly for some of the time. whether it's the arena or the art gallery or the ram or a visit to the legislature or city hall or a job or shopping or entertainment, downtown is everyone's "front room/living room". it's also important in attracting visitors that it be family friendly and cater to all age groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
    Even if the majority of families don't want to live in condos, that's not a good reason to stop making downtown and central edmonton more child friendly. Typically, when a downtown is kid friendly, it's better for everybody. More green space, playgrounds, walkable streets, and good public amenities are good attributes to have in all neighbourhoods of a city. Even if you don't live downtown, it makes it a more enjoyable place to visit if it's a friendly place for kids.
    EXACTLY!

    A relatively well-known urban planner, Peter Kagayama - for the love of cities, talks about how dog friendly cities are incredible for families and anyone for that matter. Same idea.
    i'm good on the "exactly" but less so on the latest trend to support a "dog friendly" environment. for those with allergies or asthma or who have been bitten by dogs or with children, the presence of dogs does not necessarily make for either a comfortable or a friendly environment or even a safe environment. in some respects kageyama's (please note the correct spelling) "dog friendly" is this year's version of richard florida's "creative class". the relationships might be there but the cause and effect and correlation is often backwards.
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    Valid points Ken, but generally speaking a dog-friendly neighbourhood is more active, connected, eyes on the street, etc.

    McKay Avenue is an excellent example of this, as is Dick Mather Park or Alex D.
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    When I think of our front room/living room, I think of the river valley, not downtown.

  43. #43

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    Downtown was family friendly in the past. (I had family that grew up in Oliver.) It wasn’t designed to be unwelcoming but instead it became unwelcoming.

    I’m not sure if City Council did anything at all to cause the decline. Instead I would blame market forces (namely developers and building owners) and City Council for not fighting against market forces. How the heck did so much adult only accommodation end up downtown? How the heck did one and two bedroom units come to dominate?

    Then as the children left the old schools were shut down. They didn’t lock out the kids.


    So, I’d say that it wasn’t the suburbanites that did anything to the family potential of downtown but instead those that were making their living off downtown.
    Last edited by KC; 13-11-2018 at 04:06 PM.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    When I think of our front room/living room, I think of the river valley, not downtown.
    my river valley, not yours, get your hands off of it! If you let all the others down there, next you know, its got high rises, mid rise, townhouses, cafes, bistros, pubs, bistro-pubs (but please, mind the capacity of the venue!), fake grass parks, parks for dogs but not humans, roads (but not freeways damnit, nobody wants those), bike lanes, horrible LRT routes, and vagrants... wait, we already have that last bit covered.
    Last edited by Medwards; 13-11-2018 at 04:17 PM.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    When I think of our front room/living room, I think of the river valley, not downtown.
    my river valley, not yours, get your hands off of it! If you let all the others down there, next you know, its got high rises, mid rise, townhouses, cafes, bistros, pubs, bistro-pubs (but please, mind the capacity of the venue!), fake grass parks, parks for dogs but not humans, roads (but not freeways damnit, nobody wants those), bike lanes, horrible LRT routes, and vagrants... wait, we already have that last bit covered.
    If you're describing Edmonton it sounds like most modern healthy urban centres to me.

    Podiums with townhomes and better required outdoor amenity spaces for mid and high-rise developments can go a long way.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  46. #46

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    I was describing what I hope our river valley never becomes...

    however, to your point about podiums w/ townhouses.. yes they can go a long way.... but it's not happening downtown/centrally much at all. It's been something that's been requested by those who frequent this place for our downtown and central areas for as long as these forums have existed, but still, very little to no movement from developers on this... Out in the PWWII suburbs and newer greenfield developed areas, it's a different story. Lots of townhouses/lows/mid rises going up all over the place - why? Refer to OP and the link posted.

  47. #47

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    It's usually a planning issue ("motivation").

    "
    Out in the PWWII suburbs and newer greenfield developed areas, it's a different story. Lots of townhouses/lows/mid rises going up all over the place - why? Refer to OP and the link posted. " You just described Railtown and most of the areas around MacEwan.
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  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Valid points Ken, but generally speaking a dog-friendly neighbourhood is more active, connected, eyes on the street, etc.

    McKay Avenue is an excellent example of this, as is Dick Mather Park or Alex D.
    **** on the street anyway. Or usually sidewalk.


    Dog owners more active? Than who? A person that never leaves their house?

    Go to the dog park at Jackie Parker anytime. I doubt 5% of the people there didn't drive there with lassie in tow. Then trod off to the dog run area throwing a ball and watching spot run while standing around yabbing with other dog owners. A bit less active then golf.

    I think Ken nailed it. There is certainly no correlation between dog friendly and kid friendly and there certainly is a much different relationship with some vicious breeds.
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  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
    Even if the majority of families don't want to live in condos, that's not a good reason to stop making downtown and central edmonton more child friendly. Typically, when a downtown is kid friendly, it's better for everybody. More green space, playgrounds, walkable streets, and good public amenities are good attributes to have in all neighbourhoods of a city. Even if you don't live downtown, it makes it a more enjoyable place to visit if it's a friendly place for kids.
    EXACTLY!

    A relatively well-known urban planner, Peter Kagayama - for the love of cities, talks about how dog friendly cities are incredible for families and anyone for that matter. Same idea.
    Sounds like typical new age bs

    Heres the reality;


    http://dogsaholic.com/breeds/info/wo...-for-kids.html

    Considering what some of the most popular breeds are today I'm not sure how much it aligns with children friendly.

    The article also mentions that 4.5M dog bites year occur. That is just off the charts ridiculous and a reason to argue for far less dogs at large in cities, anywhere. 360K children bit in 2yrs in USA. 66% of injuries to children 4yrs and younger were to the head and neck. Think about that. These are dogs attempting to kill.

    It seems as well to me that its adults choosing the dog, and species dog based on their preference. With kids often being vulnerable to the choices made.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    https://www.facebook.com/639058175/p...5922922913176/

    a not so dog friendly exchange in edmonton...

    in my my neighbourhood i don’t think i would let my grandchild play in the community league field or playground and the elementary school principal writes to the community league newspaper asking residents to PLEASE keep their dogs out of the school yard for the same $h!tty reason.
    Last edited by kcantor; 14-11-2018 at 08:12 AM.
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  51. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Doesn’t Paris have a major problem with people not picking up after their dogs?

    Spitting is also a distasteful issue.
    When I worked downtown (drove downtown) it was rare that even a couple days would pass with me not seeing someone spitting on the sidewalk either downtown or on my drive downtown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Doesnít Paris have a major problem with people not picking up after their dogs?

    Spitting is also a distasteful issue.
    When I worked downtown (drove downtown) it was rare that even a couple days would pass with me not seeing someone spitting on the sidewalk either downtown or on my drive downtown.
    paris is a lot better than it used to be regarding owners picking up after their dogs - the bigger problem there is urine, not crap, on the asphalt sidewalks which acquire a distinctive odour over the course of the day.
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  53. #53

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    When the muni was shut down I doubt there was any official interest in turning it into a park. The official position is to increase population in the downtown core.

    So in my mind, if I were ever to move downtown I could expect a never ending pressured to increase the density around me. Along with that comes all the issues of packing people ever closed together. More issues, more rules.

    In the suburbs I only face the prospect of the odd skinny lot being developed. Almost no noise issues - ever. Some crime but mostly stuff like car breakins. I have a yard full of greenery and birds and squirrels, rabbits etc. And surrounded by hundreds of other such tree fillled yards. I have green tree filled walkways, and schools and spacious playgrounds nearby. Plus a mix of housing types with many families living in the apartments and condos. Plus I have all the usual commercial development. Restaurants malls, stores full overflowing with crap - mostly clothing. So, basically most of the choice that downtown offers but lacking the “signature” landmarks and services like NHL arena, provincial museum, high-end services... all things I live quite fine without attending or using very often - if at all.

  54. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
    Even if the majority of families don't want to live in condos, that's not a good reason to stop making downtown and central edmonton more child friendly. Typically, when a downtown is kid friendly, it's better for everybody. More green space, playgrounds, walkable streets, and good public amenities are good attributes to have in all neighbourhoods of a city. Even if you don't live downtown, it makes it a more enjoyable place to visit if it's a friendly place for kids.
    EXACTLY!

    A relatively well-known urban planner, Peter Kagayama - for the love of cities, talks about how dog friendly cities are incredible for families and anyone for that matter. Same idea.
    Sounds like typical new age bs

    Heres the reality;


    http://dogsaholic.com/breeds/info/wo...-for-kids.html

    Considering what some of the most popular breeds are today I'm not sure how much it aligns with children friendly.

    The article also mentions that 4.5M dog bites year occur. That is just off the charts ridiculous and a reason to argue for far less dogs at large in cities, anywhere. 360K children bit in 2yrs in USA. 66% of injuries to children 4yrs and younger were to the head and neck. Think about that. These are dogs attempting to kill.

    It seems as well to me that its adults choosing the dog, and species dog based on their preference. With kids often being vulnerable to the choices made.
    Horrendous statistics. However your interpretation of dogs attempting to kill? I don’t agree.

    Here’s what I visualize: many dog bites in the home by the family dog. Not all bites being dogs biting strangers walking down the street or attacking kids in playgrounds etc. My guess is that many bites are small kids going up to a dog and pinching it, yanking in its ears or tails, putting their face right into the dog’s face, taking the dogs toys, teasing, etc.

    I’d also suspect that it’s a few dog breeds that have wilder tendencies than the average dog. (Eg Pit bulls, German Sheppards...) are disproportionately represented in the numbers. Owners of such breeds maybe need training and education on the higher potential for their dogs to do more damage.




    Dog Bite Statistics (How Likely Are You To Get Bit?) | CanineJournal.com

    “...
    Dog Bite Statistics

    Approximately 4.7 million dog bites1 occur each year
    Dogs that bite the most:2
    Chihuahua
    Bulldog
    Pit Bull
    German Shepherd
    Australian Shepherd
    Lhasa Apso
    Jack Russell Terrier
    Cocker Spaniel
    Bull Terrier
    Pekingese
    Papillion
    In 2017, there were an estimated 90 million dogs in the U.S.3
    81% of dog bites4 cause no injury at all or only minor injuries that do not require medial attention
    Dog bites sustained by children have been decreasing in the past decade
    30+ breeds of dogs and mixes are incorrectly identified as “pit bulls”* in dog bite incidents, attributing the pit bull with an unfair and overstated number of incidents (*pit bull is not technically a dog breed; breeds that are commonly referred to as pit bulls in the U.S. are American Staffordshire Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and American Bully)
    You have a 1 in 112,400 chance5 of dying from a dog bite or strike
    You are at more risk of dying from:
    Cataclysmic storm: 1 in 66,335
    Contact with hornets, wasps and bees: 1 in 63,225
    Air and space transport incidents: 1 in 9,821
    Firearm discharge: 1 in 6,905
    Choking from inhalation and ingestion of food: 1 in 3,461
    Heart disease and cancer: 1 in 7
    Most dog bites involve dogs who are not spayed or neutered6
    Fatal Dog Attacks7 states that 25% of fatal attacks were inflicted by chained dogs of many different breeds “

    https://www.caninejournal.com/dog-bite-statistics/
    Last edited by KC; 14-11-2018 at 09:07 AM.

  55. #55

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    ^Disagree KC. Going for the neck is an inate predatory kill response. It is in the wild in many predator prey relationships. It is also when big dogs attack small dogs or pets. Dogs going after preschoolers necks and heads is obviously serious, and could easily be viewed as kill attempts.

    Also the standard dog defensive reaction to an unwanted touching is to bite the hand or arm touching it. That's invariably what occurs. Those are different reactions, and not predator reactions.

    I disagree most with the notion of owners getting vicious breeds and just getting more training on handling. Just don't HAVE the vicious breeds, which shouldn't be allowed. But most of these vicious dogs in Edmonton are not even registered.
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    What a wonderful perspective and position folks.

    Shame really.
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  57. #57

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    Yeah we’ve left out cats. I’ve been bitten by both a dog and a cat. The dog nipped me on the heel. No damage whatsoever. The cat bite cut deep into my hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    When the muni was shut down I doubt there was any official interest in turning it into a park. The official position is to increase population in the downtown core.

    So in my mind, if I were ever to move downtown I could expect a never ending pressured to increase the density around me. Along with that comes all the issues of packing people ever closed together. More issues, more rules.

    In the suburbs I only face the prospect of the odd skinny lot being developed. Almost no noise issues - ever. Some crime but mostly stuff like car breakins. I have a yard full of greenery and birds and squirrels, rabbits etc. And surrounded by hundreds of other such tree fillled yards. I have green tree filled walkways, and schools and spacious playgrounds nearby. Plus a mix of housing types with many families living in the apartments and condos. Plus I have all the usual commercial development. Restaurants malls, stores full overflowing with crap - mostly clothing. So, basically most of the choice that downtown offers but lacking the “signature” landmarks and services like NHL arena, provincial museum, high-end services... all things I live quite fine without attending or using very often - if at all.
    ^ This.

    Re. dogs. I live backing onto a multi-use pathway and see a number of people walking their dogs daily. The wife and I walk it daily and know most of the dogs - assorted breeds, mutts, etc. In the 12 years we've been here we've yet to see, or even hear of, one single dog/person incident. Antagonise any animal, it'll have a go at you. Seems to me that there's a degree of paranoia about, though.
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  59. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    When the muni was shut down I doubt there was any official interest in turning it into a park. The official position is to increase population in the downtown core.

    So in my mind, if I were ever to move downtown I could expect a never ending pressured to increase the density around me. Along with that comes all the issues of packing people ever closed together. More issues, more rules.

    In the suburbs I only face the prospect of the odd skinny lot being developed. Almost no noise issues - ever. Some crime but mostly stuff like car breakins. I have a yard full of greenery and birds and squirrels, rabbits etc. And surrounded by hundreds of other such tree fillled yards. I have green tree filled walkways, and schools and spacious playgrounds nearby. Plus a mix of housing types with many families living in the apartments and condos. Plus I have all the usual commercial development. Restaurants malls, stores full overflowing with crap - mostly clothing. So, basically most of the choice that downtown offers but lacking the “signature” landmarks and services like NHL arena, provincial museum, high-end services... all things I live quite fine without attending or using very often - if at all.
    ^ This.

    Re. dogs. I live backing onto a multi-use pathway and see a number of people walking their dogs daily. The wife and I walk it daily and know most of the dogs - assorted breeds, mutts, etc. In the 12 years we've been here we've yet to see, or even hear of, one single dog/person incident. Antagonise any animal, it'll have a go at you. Seems to me that there's a degree of paranoia about, though.
    Yeah I’ve been around dogs that have attacked and bit each other so dogs do bite but most when trained and exposed to other dogs and people develop decent social skills.

  60. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    When the muni was shut down I doubt there was any official interest in turning it into a park. The official position is to increase population in the downtown core.

    So in my mind, if I were ever to move downtown I could expect a never ending pressured to increase the density around me. Along with that comes all the issues of packing people ever closed together. More issues, more rules.

    In the suburbs I only face the prospect of the odd skinny lot being developed. Almost no noise issues - ever. Some crime but mostly stuff like car breakins. I have a yard full of greenery and birds and squirrels, rabbits etc. And surrounded by hundreds of other such tree fillled yards. I have green tree filled walkways, and schools and spacious playgrounds nearby. Plus a mix of housing types with many families living in the apartments and condos. Plus I have all the usual commercial development. Restaurants malls, stores full overflowing with crap - mostly clothing. So, basically most of the choice that downtown offers but lacking the “signature” landmarks and services like NHL arena, provincial museum, high-end services... all things I live quite fine without attending or using very often - if at all.
    ^ This.

    Re. dogs. I live backing onto a multi-use pathway and see a number of people walking their dogs daily. The wife and I walk it daily and know most of the dogs - assorted breeds, mutts, etc. In the 12 years we've been here we've yet to see, or even hear of, one single dog/person incident. Antagonise any animal, it'll have a go at you. Seems to me that there's a degree of paranoia about, though.
    Try being a cyclist in the city. I've been attacked by dogs at least 3 times. Fortunately out pedaling them every time. Large aggressive dogs. In two instances they were security dogs in commercial/industrial areas that were able to jump a fence or get through somehow. Attacking me on the street. One instance was reported to COE and the business fined heavily as they had multiple instances.

    Used to rollerblade. Dogs hate that as well. Anything that goes at a decent speed, dogs chase, and attack. you don't stick around when a big dog is running full tilt at you to see if its a bluff run. One of the dogs got close enough to try to bite my foot as I was peddling. Nearly caused me to take a bad spill at full speed. Basically any cyclist has been attacked by dogs at some point.


    I guess you can give your anecdotal but 4.5M dog attacks per year in the USA fairly counters it being a non issue, and paranoia, as you describe. Really its a pretty disgusting thing to state in view of the myriad serious attacks and deaths that have occurred with dogs, and many to the owners themselves, or their children.

    You're totally wrong on this one. Inform yourself more on the countless incidents.
    Last edited by Replacement; 14-11-2018 at 12:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    When the muni was shut down I doubt there was any official interest in turning it into a park. The official position is to increase population in the downtown core.

    So in my mind, if I were ever to move downtown I could expect a never ending pressured to increase the density around me. Along with that comes all the issues of packing people ever closed together. More issues, more rules.

    In the suburbs I only face the prospect of the odd skinny lot being developed. Almost no noise issues - ever. Some crime but mostly stuff like car breakins. I have a yard full of greenery and birds and squirrels, rabbits etc. And surrounded by hundreds of other such tree fillled yards. I have green tree filled walkways, and schools and spacious playgrounds nearby. Plus a mix of housing types with many families living in the apartments and condos. Plus I have all the usual commercial development. Restaurants malls, stores full overflowing with crap - mostly clothing. So, basically most of the choice that downtown offers but lacking the “signature” landmarks and services like NHL arena, provincial museum, high-end services... all things I live quite fine without attending or using very often - if at all.
    ^ This.

    Re. dogs. I live backing onto a multi-use pathway and see a number of people walking their dogs daily. The wife and I walk it daily and know most of the dogs - assorted breeds, mutts, etc. In the 12 years we've been here we've yet to see, or even hear of, one single dog/person incident. Antagonise any animal, it'll have a go at you. Seems to me that there's a degree of paranoia about, though.
    your experience on your path is much different than what we see on the path we back on to, just as it’s much different around our community league and our elementary school. and while i agree the responsibility ultimately rests with the owners and not the dogs, the dogs are (a) where they are not supposed to be and (b) they’re off leash whether or not they’re in areas they’re not supposed to be. and their owners have the courtesy and the attention span of gnats, city enforcement campaigns and signage notwithstanding. the friendliness of dog owners quickly turns into a myth when asked to leash and pick up after their pets. it’s like they’re staking their turf and you’re the ones who should go elsewhere or stay home if you don’t like/approve of it even when “their rurf” is your turf.
    Last edited by kcantor; 14-11-2018 at 12:41 PM.
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    I'm not sure why some dog owners have such a propensity to ignore facts, stats, actual information and rationalize based on their own confirmation bias and anecdotal conclusion. Theres countless dog owners who held he same identical view until they, a loved on or a child got attacked. It seems commonplace with dog owners and indeed its delusionally so with owners of dangerous breeds. Its nothing short of serious denial.

    We've even seen kid victim blaming in this thread. By posters like KC I'm surprised to see do it. It seems like in the love and adoration of dogs we excuse a lot of dog behavior. To the degree that children are blamed for getting bitten and attacked when children do childish normal things.

    But we admonish the child for being bit. Its their problem, while rationalizing that its just what many species of dogs do.

    Even completely unintended injuries can often be serious. I've responded to homes (Child intervention cases) where babies and children were injured, knocked over, run over, by rambunctious large puppies or full sized dogs. With parents not even questioning the wisdom of having a Rottweiler, Doberman, Pitbull, at large IN THE HOME with a defenceless baby or small child. The parent opinion that these two things are not at odds is so commonplace now. Until tragedy occurs.
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    Brings to mind one of my favorite bumper tickers

    "The more people I meet, the more I like my dog"

    for me it's true more often than not.

    We have a Chihuahua though, and she's mean. She has bitten me before and will attack our black lab if she even so much as looks at the little dog's food bowl. It's a defense behavior though, she was abused and seriously neglected before we got her. She's also 13 years old, deaf and has no teeth left. So we'll manage her. We do warn anyone who comes to the house not to attempt to touch her though.

    Our lab though has never displayed even a hint of aggressive behavior in the nine years we've had her, we raised her from a pup. I am quite confident that she could be around small children without issue. My young nieces love playing with her.

    I also rigorously follow animal control bylaws and pick up poop diligently, and I think people who don't ruin things for the rest of us who are responsible dog owners.

    Our downtown condo was a terrible place to have dogs though. As with kids, there's not enough space, no yard and really inconvenient and the public realm for dogs is pretty terrible downtown. Thankfully our dogs were quiet, other dogs in the building not so much and made it irritating for other owners. But that's just reason # 45,372 not to live in a condo again.
    Last edited by 240GLT; 14-11-2018 at 01:01 PM.
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  64. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    When the muni was shut down I doubt there was any official interest in turning it into a park. The official position is to increase population in the downtown core.

    So in my mind, if I were ever to move downtown I could expect a never ending pressured to increase the density around me. Along with that comes all the issues of packing people ever closed together. More issues, more rules.

    In the suburbs I only face the prospect of the odd skinny lot being developed. Almost no noise issues - ever. Some crime but mostly stuff like car breakins. I have a yard full of greenery and birds and squirrels, rabbits etc. And surrounded by hundreds of other such tree fillled yards. I have green tree filled walkways, and schools and spacious playgrounds nearby. Plus a mix of housing types with many families living in the apartments and condos. Plus I have all the usual commercial development. Restaurants malls, stores full overflowing with crap - mostly clothing. So, basically most of the choice that downtown offers but lacking the “signature” landmarks and services like NHL arena, provincial museum, high-end services... all things I live quite fine without attending or using very often - if at all.
    ^ This.

    Re. dogs. I live backing onto a multi-use pathway and see a number of people walking their dogs daily. The wife and I walk it daily and know most of the dogs - assorted breeds, mutts, etc. In the 12 years we've been here we've yet to see, or even hear of, one single dog/person incident. Antagonise any animal, it'll have a go at you. Seems to me that there's a degree of paranoia about, though.
    Try being a cyclist in the city. I've been attacked by dogs at least 3 times. Fortunately out pedaling them every time. Large aggressive dogs. In two instances they were security dogs in commercial/industrial areas that were able to jump a fence or get through somehow. Attacking me on the street. One instance was reported to COE and the business fined heavily as they had multiple instances.

    Used to rollerblade. Dogs hate that as well. Anything that goes at a decent speed, dogs chase, and attack. you don't stick around when a big dog is running full tilt at you to see if its a bluff run. One of the dogs got close enough to try to bite my foot as I was peddling. Nearly caused me to take a bad spill at full speed. Basically any cyclist has been attacked by dogs at some point.


    I guess you can give your anecdotal but 4.5M dog attacks per year in the USA fairly counters it being a non issue, and paranoia, as you describe. Really its a pretty disgusting thing to state in view of the myriad serious attacks and deaths that have occurred with dogs, and many to the owners themselves, or their children.

    You're totally wrong on this one. Inform yourself more on the countless incidents.
    Yup. To question any claim these days “is a disgusting thing to state...”

    Might as well add one or more of: revolting, repellent, repulsive, sickening, nauseating, stomach-churning, stomach-turning, off-putting, unpalatable, distasteful, foul, nasty, vomitous...



    Let’s not even go here - though, if it weren’t for so many people choosing to eat home...

    Knife-related injuries treated in United States emergency departments, 1990-2008. - PubMed - NCBI

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23849364/
    Last edited by KC; 14-11-2018 at 01:29 PM.

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    I'm not sure why some dog owners have such a propensity to ignore facts, stats, actual information and rationalize based on their own confirmation bias and anecdotal conclusion. Theres countless dog owners who held he same identical view until they, a loved on or a child got attacked. It seems commonplace with dog owners and indeed its delusionally so with owners of dangerous breeds. Its nothing short of serious denial.

    We've even seen kid victim blaming in this thread. By posters like KC I'm surprised to see do it. It seems like in the love and adoration of dogs we excuse a lot of dog behavior. To the degree that children are blamed for getting bitten and attacked when children do childish normal things.

    But we admonish the child for being bit. Its their problem, while rationalizing that its just what many species of dogs do.

    Even completely unintended injuries can often be serious. I've responded to homes (Child intervention cases) where babies and children were injured, knocked over, run over, by rambunctious large puppies or full sized dogs. With parents not even questioning the wisdom of having a Rottweiler, Doberman, Pitbull, at large IN THE HOME with a defenceless baby or small child. The parent opinion that these two things are not at odds is so commonplace now. Until tragedy occurs.

    It’s not kid victim blaming. Kids will torment dogs and cats. They will stick their face in a dog or cats face and get bitten in the face - or neck due to proximity. It’s a parenting issue because kids can be at fault and parents are responsible for teaching kids not to hit, steal, tease, plus follow a million other common sense behaviours.

    We kept our baby away from our two dogs (both were show, agility and water trial veterans) or never let them get out of our reach. We sure didn’t trust them near the baby and were very aware of pack behaviour risks. They were also regularly treated whenever babies appeared so that they saw their presence as a positive event.)

    When our dogs once charged at the fence we staged the opportunity and then scolded them as we jumped out to stop that behaviour. None have gotten away with any barking at people or other animals in our yard.
    Last edited by KC; 14-11-2018 at 01:42 PM.

  66. #66
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    ^

    i’m not sure about the point of your link...

    (a) there are more than 10 times as many dog bites as knife related injuries every year according to your link.

    (b) i’m pretty sure a higher proportion of those knife related injuries were self-inflicted than is the case with dog bites.
    Last edited by kcantor; 14-11-2018 at 03:00 PM.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  67. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    i’m not sure about the point of your link...

    (a) there are more than 10 times as many dog bites as knife related injuries every year according to your link.

    (b) i’m pretty sure a higher proportion of those knife related injuries were self-inflicted that is the case with dog bites.
    Not every dog bite is the dog initiating an attack. Kids rough play with their dogs and get bitten. Kids rough play with each other and get hurt (many of the knife stabbings were roughhousing). People need to train themselves and their kids and their dogs. Then there are people and animals that for whatever reason are dangerous to others and society needs to take action to deal with the risks.


    Dogs, cats, birds, knives, chemicals, drugs, alcohol, electrical appliances, guns, tools, etc can all be problems if people overestimate the safety of their presence nest kids - or even many adults. (My daughter and dogs were often sent inside when I mowed the lawn so a flying rock or whatever couldn’t hit them. Just plain old common sense.)
    Last edited by KC; 14-11-2018 at 01:53 PM.

  68. #68

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    And "bitten" can just be the dog's instinctive grasping motion - dogs don't have hands and use their mouths for all kinds of grasping things. They also have long pointy teeth that can really hurt just by rough-play or accidental contact.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  69. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    And "bitten" can just be the dog's instinctive grasping motion - dogs don't have hands and use their mouths for all kinds of grasping things. They also have long pointy teeth that can really hurt just by rough-play or accidental contact.
    People with lots of dogs get bitten a lot more. I’ve seen that happen as owners try to separate two dogs fighting. One thing I’ve sure noticed is that people who have a dog that shows its teeth don’t get after their dog and ensure that the dog understands that that is unacceptable.

  70. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
    Even if the majority of families don't want to live in condos, that's not a good reason to stop making downtown and central edmonton more child friendly. Typically, when a downtown is kid friendly, it's better for everybody. More green space, playgrounds, walkable streets, and good public amenities are good attributes to have in all neighbourhoods of a city. Even if you don't live downtown, it makes it a more enjoyable place to visit if it's a friendly place for kids.
    this is the essence of "downtown is for everyone" - not necessarily to live and not necessarily all of the time but certainly for some of the time. whether it's the arena or the art gallery or the ram or a visit to the legislature or city hall or a job or shopping or entertainment, downtown is everyone's "front room/living room". it's also important in attracting visitors that it be family friendly and cater to all age groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post
    Even if the majority of families don't want to live in condos, that's not a good reason to stop making downtown and central edmonton more child friendly. Typically, when a downtown is kid friendly, it's better for everybody. More green space, playgrounds, walkable streets, and good public amenities are good attributes to have in all neighbourhoods of a city. Even if you don't live downtown, it makes it a more enjoyable place to visit if it's a friendly place for kids.
    EXACTLY!

    A relatively well-known urban planner, Peter Kagayama - for the love of cities, talks about how dog friendly cities are incredible for families and anyone for that matter. Same idea.
    i'm good on the "exactly" but less so on the latest trend to support a "dog friendly" environment. for those with allergies or asthma or who have been bitten by dogs or with children, the presence of dogs does not necessarily make for either a comfortable or a friendly environment or even a safe environment. in some respects kageyama's (please note the correct spelling) "dog friendly" is this year's version of richard florida's "creative class". the relationships might be there but the cause and effect and correlation is often backwards.
    Back to the origin of this dog discussion. Absolutes as always should be viewed with caution. Pet friend accommodations need limits. Even kid accommodations are limited under equal rights legislation. Similarly banning dogs from downtown or from buildings etc seems excessive. (Allergies and irritants include many common substances. Even peanut bans in schools are now coming under question.)

    That said, if I desired pet ownership, again the suburbs seem like the place to make that more hassle, trouble and risk free.
    Last edited by KC; 14-11-2018 at 02:31 PM.

  71. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    I'm not sure why some dog owners have such a propensity to ignore facts, stats, actual information and rationalize based on their own confirmation bias and anecdotal conclusion. Theres countless dog owners who held he same identical view until they, a loved on or a child got attacked. It seems commonplace with dog owners and indeed its delusionally so with owners of dangerous breeds. Its nothing short of serious denial.

    We've even seen kid victim blaming in this thread. By posters like KC I'm surprised to see do it. It seems like in the love and adoration of dogs we excuse a lot of dog behavior. To the degree that children are blamed for getting bitten and attacked when children do childish normal things.

    But we admonish the child for being bit. Its their problem, while rationalizing that its just what many species of dogs do.

    Even completely unintended injuries can often be serious. I've responded to homes (Child intervention cases) where babies and children were injured, knocked over, run over, by rambunctious large puppies or full sized dogs. With parents not even questioning the wisdom of having a Rottweiler, Doberman, Pitbull, at large IN THE HOME with a defenceless baby or small child. The parent opinion that these two things are not at odds is so commonplace now. Until tragedy occurs.

    It’s not kid victim blaming. Kids will torment dogs and cats. They will stick their face in a dog or cats face and get bitten in the face - or neck due to proximity. It’s a parenting issue because kids can be at fault and parents are responsible for teaching kids not to hit, steal, tease, plus follow a million other common sense behaviours.

    We kept our baby away from our two dogs (both were show, agility and water trial veterans) or never let them get out of our reach. We sure didn’t trust them near the baby and were very aware of pack behaviour risks. They were also regularly treated whenever babies appeared so that they saw their presence as a positive event.)

    When our dogs once charged at the fence we staged the opportunity and then scolded them as we jumped out to stop that behaviour. None have gotten away with any barking at people or other animals in our yard.
    Thanks for the response and clarification. I did call it out because, even if you don't admit it, it veered to victim blaming. You even acknowledge the stupid things kids do to pets. Kids that at a young age have limited cognition, memory, etc. My assertion, if you go back, is that young children and dogs don't generally mix well (you can get away with some breeds being forever patient with kids/children. But theres a general rule of logic missing in some of this. That its up to parents to give serious planning and thought about whether they should have potentially vicious dogs AND toddlers at the SAME TIME. I'm claiming its a less than ideal mix. Data on injuries to preschoolers and babies backs me up on this.

    So that I assert the parenting issue could just be about making logical choices. Having a 1-2 yr old with limited cognition, and all kinds of random exploration, and a dog with limited cognition, and sticking them in close quarters all day all week is probably not a great idea. In fact in a different era parents would often defer on having such pets until the kids were at an age and responsibility where they could look after them, bond with them, interact well with them.


    Heres what I think. Parents have potentially dangerous dog breeds because THEY want to have them at the same time they're having babies. The children don't get to vote, and its not the childrens choice. Its adult children that might want to prioritize one or the other, and not deny such things as vicious dogs hurt people, kill people, hurt children, kill children. But the same dog owners figure they should walk their two pitbulls down the street(we have a lot of those here) and not have any family walking out on the same sidewalk getting nervous. We've even seen dog owners of vicious breeds get irritated with people for not liking their dog or not "being right" around it or "showing fear".
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  72. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    When the muni was shut down I doubt there was any official interest in turning it into a park. The official position is to increase population in the downtown core.

    So in my mind, if I were ever to move downtown I could expect a never ending pressured to increase the density around me. Along with that comes all the issues of packing people ever closed together. More issues, more rules.

    In the suburbs I only face the prospect of the odd skinny lot being developed. Almost no noise issues - ever. Some crime but mostly stuff like car breakins. I have a yard full of greenery and birds and squirrels, rabbits etc. And surrounded by hundreds of other such tree fillled yards. I have green tree filled walkways, and schools and spacious playgrounds nearby. Plus a mix of housing types with many families living in the apartments and condos. Plus I have all the usual commercial development. Restaurants malls, stores full overflowing with crap - mostly clothing. So, basically most of the choice that downtown offers but lacking the “signature” landmarks and services like NHL arena, provincial museum, high-end services... all things I live quite fine without attending or using very often - if at all.
    ^ This.

    Re. dogs. I live backing onto a multi-use pathway and see a number of people walking their dogs daily. The wife and I walk it daily and know most of the dogs - assorted breeds, mutts, etc. In the 12 years we've been here we've yet to see, or even hear of, one single dog/person incident. Antagonise any animal, it'll have a go at you. Seems to me that there's a degree of paranoia about, though.
    Try being a cyclist in the city. I've been attacked by dogs at least 3 times. Fortunately out pedaling them every time. Large aggressive dogs. In two instances they were security dogs in commercial/industrial areas that were able to jump a fence or get through somehow. Attacking me on the street. One instance was reported to COE and the business fined heavily as they had multiple instances.

    Used to rollerblade. Dogs hate that as well. Anything that goes at a decent speed, dogs chase, and attack. you don't stick around when a big dog is running full tilt at you to see if its a bluff run. One of the dogs got close enough to try to bite my foot as I was peddling. Nearly caused me to take a bad spill at full speed. Basically any cyclist has been attacked by dogs at some point.


    I guess you can give your anecdotal but 4.5M dog attacks per year in the USA fairly counters it being a non issue, and paranoia, as you describe. Really its a pretty disgusting thing to state in view of the myriad serious attacks and deaths that have occurred with dogs, and many to the owners themselves, or their children.

    You're totally wrong on this one. Inform yourself more on the countless incidents.
    Yup. To question any claim these days “is a disgusting thing to state...”

    Might as well add one or more of: revolting, repellent, repulsive, sickening, nauseating, stomach-churning, stomach-turning, off-putting, unpalatable, distasteful, foul, nasty, vomitous...



    Let’s not even go here - though, if it weren’t for so many people choosing to eat home...

    Knife-related injuries treated in United States emergency departments, 1990-2008. - PubMed - NCBI

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23849364/
    What I reacted to is the posters conclusion that people concerned about dogs were just being paranoid. Tell me if that wasn't stated by Howie. Being that I've been a Social worker for decades and have seen families that have experienced grievous injuries to their OWN children, and babies, due to their vicious or dangerous animal I'm triggered by such comment. Or go work with a family sometime that is suspected of drug dealing/manufacturing that has vicious dogs for protection reasons and tell me that their kid who was hospitalized due to injury by the dog(s) was just paranoid about the dog. I'm not even talking about one case either. I'm aware of more sad cases like that through the decades then I can remember.


    Vicious dogs are vicious. They cause harm on an unacceptable level to the degree they are rightly banned in many jurisdictions. It is not paranoia to fear actual dangers. The suggestion that it is simply paranoia is insensitive at best. Such comment should be challenged.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  73. #73

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    Now to clarify, because peoples dander gets up in these vicious dog discussions, which is natural, the REASON its a very conflictual issue is that dog ownership has consequences for individuals that are not dog owners. In the case of serious attacks these are horrific consequences. So that peoples choice to have a vicious breed is IMPACTING others who get NO SAY in the matter.

    End result being;

    Other dogs mauled (invariably killed right in front of their owners and or children.) because somebody thinks its cool to have a vicious breed.

    Babies, children, or adults being injured, mauled, by vicious dogs.

    Many more people attacked, bitten, chased, confronted with charging vicious dogs. I think people are minimizing these things too. All of this is traumatizing or troubling.



    I encourage anybody to start googling up the horrific instances that people have experienced just on Edmonton streets involving vicious dogs. Increase your knowledge of the harm and then you understand why there is so much concern about vicious dog breeds in every jurisdiction and why there have been bans in so many.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Now to clarify, because peoples dander gets up in these vicious dog discussions, which is natural, the REASON its a very conflictual issue is that dog ownership has consequences for individuals that are not dog owners. In the case of serious attacks these are horrific consequences. So that peoples choice to have a vicious breed is IMPACTING others who get NO SAY in the matter.

    End result being;

    Other dogs mauled (invariably killed right in front of their owners and or children.) because somebody thinks its cool to have a vicious breed.

    Babies, children, or adults being injured, mauled, by vicious dogs.

    Many more people attacked, bitten, chased, confronted with charging vicious dogs. I think people are minimizing these things too. All of this is traumatizing or troubling.



    I encourage anybody to start googling up the horrific instances that people have experienced just on Edmonton streets involving vicious dogs. Increase your knowledge of the harm and then you understand why there is so much concern about vicious dog breeds in every jurisdiction and why there have been bans in so many.
    in addition to the damage inflicted directly by dogs, there are the wider spread implications of owners not respecting the environments of others and happily allow their dogs to take over. and it's not restricted to vicious dogs either. the @rap and urine in and on our schoolyards and playgrounds and sidewalks is left by the most gentle of dogs who are just as likely - or even moreso - to be left off-leash by their owners.

    as i already noted above, there are parks and playgrounds and schoolyards as well as paths in my neighborhood where i simply wouldn't take my grandchild because of who has been their before and what they've happily left behind.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  75. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Now to clarify, because peoples dander gets up in these vicious dog discussions, which is natural, the REASON its a very conflictual issue is that dog ownership has consequences for individuals that are not dog owners. In the case of serious attacks these are horrific consequences. So that peoples choice to have a vicious breed is IMPACTING others who get NO SAY in the matter.

    End result being;

    Other dogs mauled (invariably killed right in front of their owners and or children.) because somebody thinks its cool to have a vicious breed.

    Babies, children, or adults being injured, mauled, by vicious dogs.

    Many more people attacked, bitten, chased, confronted with charging vicious dogs. I think people are minimizing these things too. All of this is traumatizing or troubling.



    I encourage anybody to start googling up the horrific instances that people have experienced just on Edmonton streets involving vicious dogs. Increase your knowledge of the harm and then you understand why there is so much concern about vicious dog breeds in every jurisdiction and why there have been bans in so many.
    in addition to the damage inflicted directly by dogs, there are the wider spread implications of owners not respecting the environments of others and happily allow their dogs to take over. and it's not restricted to vicious dogs either. the @rap and urine in and on our schoolyards and playgrounds and sidewalks is left by the most gentle of dogs who are just as likely - or even moreso - to be left off-leash by their owners.

    as i already noted above, there are parks and playgrounds and schoolyards as well as paths in my neighborhood where i simply wouldn't take my grandchild because of who has been their before and what they've happily left behind.
    So I’m still not clear why this is all being said here?

    Is it the suburbs need to be less pet friendly or the downtown core less pet friendly?
    Are the suburbs overly and possibly foolishly pet friendly and so it is putting the downtcore in an unfair j competitive position?

    Restrictions or less accommodation or more policing or something else?

    Also, cats are being left out of the discussion. Why?
    Last edited by KC; 14-11-2018 at 09:01 PM.

  76. #76

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    ^Go back to post #39. Iano telling people that a dog friendly environment is a child friendly environment because he read that somewhere by one urban planner. Who was cited only in name, and not in source. So IanO was confronted on those two things not being connected, and not even correlated, but that increased dog ownership could even be increasing child threat. Of course IanO has not responded to these corrections.


    Next, have you ever in your life been aggressively chased by a cat at large? Seriously? Dogs, hunting or vicious breeds have a fairly inate predatory response of chase and attack. A cat is dangerous if you happen to be a bird or a mouse..

    Why are cats not being discussed? Because it wasn't the sidebar IanO lobbed in the thread. I have concerns with cats at large as well. The one difference is that Dogs attack bystanders. Cats don't unless they had rabies which is a whole different concern. Many dogs are naturally aggressive and pursue, stalk. Cats do not have this behavior in public, in relation to humans on the street. Cats, if anything run away. Especially skittish cats that may bite or claw IF they are cornered and threatened.
    Last edited by Replacement; 15-11-2018 at 11:03 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  77. #77

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    Something not even mentioned. Go to any park that features a dog area. For instance Jackie Parker being a great example. A walking trail borders that dog park area, all along the ravine. Try walking that trail ANYTIME and not be run at by a dog. Try doing it. I've not been attacked on the trail but countless times I've had dogs go right up to me, jump on me, looking to get patted. The Dog owner will trot by and say "down dog, down" after my pants already have muddy paw prints on them. What cat does that? I don't dislike dogs, but I don't welcome, or want them jumping at me for attention. I actually just want to be able to walk, and hopefully not to have to do laundry after. This is happened on trails, on streets, anywhere. Dogs like me. Typically. But that doesn't mean I'm saying "hey muddy fido, autograph my clothes with your paws."

    I earlier mentioned rollerblading. Its virtually dangerous to do this with dogs around because a large dog will often submarine you walking right in front of your path. I've done headplants twice with large dogs doing this unexpectedly.

    When Cycling on multi trails its an absolute menace. Even attended dogs on leash will often charge you as you cycle by. Most cyclists have had instances where the dog or dog leash could upend you as you pass. Most owners know this and will take up the leash slack as you pass by because they know fido will want to charge and yap at every bike. Some are not aware of it. But its to the point that if I even see an owner with a dog I'm thinking potential problem.


    Then, do I have to mention it. Incessant dog barking. Mindless morning to night chatter of dogs that bark at molecules all ******* day. Residential hell is having a series of owners that think having fido outside in the yard 15hr a day or all the time is a great idea. The same people get aggravated when they are outside in the yard and the dog is being a nuisance. The only times they interject.
    Last edited by Replacement; 15-11-2018 at 11:17 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  78. #78

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    CMHC finds Toronto commuting costs can outweigh cheaper suburban house prices

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cmh...sing-1.4903862

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Something not even mentioned. Go to any park that features a dog area. For instance Jackie Parker being a great example. A walking trail borders that dog park area, all along the ravine. Try walking that trail ANYTIME and not be run at by a dog. Try doing it. I've not been attacked on the trail but countless times I've had dogs go right up to me, jump on me, looking to get patted. The Dog owner will trot by and say "down dog, down" after my pants already have muddy paw prints on them. What cat does that? I don't dislike dogs, but I don't welcome, or want them jumping at me for attention. I actually just want to be able to walk, and hopefully not to have to do laundry after. This is happened on trails, on streets, anywhere. Dogs like me. Typically. But that doesn't mean I'm saying "hey muddy fido, autograph my clothes with your paws."

    I earlier mentioned rollerblading. Its virtually dangerous to do this with dogs around because a large dog will often submarine you walking right in front of your path. I've done headplants twice with large dogs doing this unexpectedly.

    When Cycling on multi trails its an absolute menace. Even attended dogs on leash will often charge you as you cycle by. Most cyclists have had instances where the dog or dog leash could upend you as you pass. Most owners know this and will take up the leash slack as you pass by because they know fido will want to charge and yap at every bike. Some are not aware of it. But its to the point that if I even see an owner with a dog I'm thinking potential problem.


    Then, do I have to mention it. Incessant dog barking. Mindless morning to night chatter of dogs that bark at molecules all ******* day. Residential hell is having a series of owners that think having fido outside in the yard 15hr a day or all the time is a great idea. The same people get aggravated when they are outside in the yard and the dog is being a nuisance. The only times they interject.
    Bolded: Isn't that just part of living in a city? Just like loud vehicles.

  80. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Something not even mentioned. Go to any park that features a dog area. For instance Jackie Parker being a great example. A walking trail borders that dog park area, all along the ravine. Try walking that trail ANYTIME and not be run at by a dog. Try doing it. I've not been attacked on the trail but countless times I've had dogs go right up to me, jump on me, looking to get patted. The Dog owner will trot by and say "down dog, down" after my pants already have muddy paw prints on them. What cat does that? I don't dislike dogs, but I don't welcome, or want them jumping at me for attention. I actually just want to be able to walk, and hopefully not to have to do laundry after. This is happened on trails, on streets, anywhere. Dogs like me. Typically. But that doesn't mean I'm saying "hey muddy fido, autograph my clothes with your paws."

    I earlier mentioned rollerblading. Its virtually dangerous to do this with dogs around because a large dog will often submarine you walking right in front of your path. I've done headplants twice with large dogs doing this unexpectedly.

    When Cycling on multi trails its an absolute menace. Even attended dogs on leash will often charge you as you cycle by. Most cyclists have had instances where the dog or dog leash could upend you as you pass. Most owners know this and will take up the leash slack as you pass by because they know fido will want to charge and yap at every bike. Some are not aware of it. But its to the point that if I even see an owner with a dog I'm thinking potential problem.


    Then, do I have to mention it. Incessant dog barking. Mindless morning to night chatter of dogs that bark at molecules all ******* day. Residential hell is having a series of owners that think having fido outside in the yard 15hr a day or all the time is a great idea. The same people get aggravated when they are outside in the yard and the dog is being a nuisance. The only times they interject.
    I never got a dog until well into adulthood, yet I never saw a dog simply running at me or running up to me as a dog attacking me. I’ve had squirrels run at me too. No big deal. Had a coyote walk towards us in Laurier Park last year but it wasn’t attacking us either.

    Had a bear walk up a mountain trail towards us when we had little kids with us. That was more of an issue but we made noises and the bear turned off trail.

    A neighbour walking her dogs on our lake property had a cougar come nearby her but her dogs chased it off.

  81. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Something not even mentioned. Go to any park that features a dog area. For instance Jackie Parker being a great example. A walking trail borders that dog park area, all along the ravine. Try walking that trail ANYTIME and not be run at by a dog. Try doing it. I've not been attacked on the trail but countless times I've had dogs go right up to me, jump on me, looking to get patted. The Dog owner will trot by and say "down dog, down" after my pants already have muddy paw prints on them. What cat does that? I don't dislike dogs, but I don't welcome, or want them jumping at me for attention. I actually just want to be able to walk, and hopefully not to have to do laundry after. This is happened on trails, on streets, anywhere. Dogs like me. Typically. But that doesn't mean I'm saying "hey muddy fido, autograph my clothes with your paws."

    I earlier mentioned rollerblading. Its virtually dangerous to do this with dogs around because a large dog will often submarine you walking right in front of your path. I've done headplants twice with large dogs doing this unexpectedly.

    When Cycling on multi trails its an absolute menace. Even attended dogs on leash will often charge you as you cycle by. Most cyclists have had instances where the dog or dog leash could upend you as you pass. Most owners know this and will take up the leash slack as you pass by because they know fido will want to charge and yap at every bike. Some are not aware of it. But its to the point that if I even see an owner with a dog I'm thinking potential problem.


    Then, do I have to mention it. Incessant dog barking. Mindless morning to night chatter of dogs that bark at molecules all ******* day. Residential hell is having a series of owners that think having fido outside in the yard 15hr a day or all the time is a great idea. The same people get aggravated when they are outside in the yard and the dog is being a nuisance. The only times they interject.
    Bolded: Isn't that just part of living in a city? Just like loud vehicles.
    Sure, but heres the difference. Between complain all day about motorcyles, loud vehicles etc call the owners dicks etc. But somebody that leaves their dog barking all day morning and night? I find dog barking more disruptive as even though I realize dogs bark at air you still are motivated sometimes to see if they are barking at someone or something on your property. The latter would be useful alert if dogs only barked at an intruder.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  82. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Something not even mentioned. Go to any park that features a dog area. For instance Jackie Parker being a great example. A walking trail borders that dog park area, all along the ravine. Try walking that trail ANYTIME and not be run at by a dog. Try doing it. I've not been attacked on the trail but countless times I've had dogs go right up to me, jump on me, looking to get patted. The Dog owner will trot by and say "down dog, down" after my pants already have muddy paw prints on them. What cat does that? I don't dislike dogs, but I don't welcome, or want them jumping at me for attention. I actually just want to be able to walk, and hopefully not to have to do laundry after. This is happened on trails, on streets, anywhere. Dogs like me. Typically. But that doesn't mean I'm saying "hey muddy fido, autograph my clothes with your paws."

    I earlier mentioned rollerblading. Its virtually dangerous to do this with dogs around because a large dog will often submarine you walking right in front of your path. I've done headplants twice with large dogs doing this unexpectedly.

    When Cycling on multi trails its an absolute menace. Even attended dogs on leash will often charge you as you cycle by. Most cyclists have had instances where the dog or dog leash could upend you as you pass. Most owners know this and will take up the leash slack as you pass by because they know fido will want to charge and yap at every bike. Some are not aware of it. But its to the point that if I even see an owner with a dog I'm thinking potential problem.


    Then, do I have to mention it. Incessant dog barking. Mindless morning to night chatter of dogs that bark at molecules all ******* day. Residential hell is having a series of owners that think having fido outside in the yard 15hr a day or all the time is a great idea. The same people get aggravated when they are outside in the yard and the dog is being a nuisance. The only times they interject.
    Bolded: Isn't that just part of living in a city? Just like loud vehicles.
    Sure, but heres the difference. Between complain all day about motorcyles, loud vehicles etc call the owners dicks etc. But somebody that leaves their dog barking all day morning and night? I find dog barking more disruptive as even though I realize dogs bark at air you still are motivated sometimes to see if they are barking at someone or something on your property. The latter would be useful alert if dogs only barked at an intruder.
    There will always be something. Like I said, we’ve never tolerated our dogs barking. Have a bark collar that we used early on but not in 15 or more years. I never play a stereo outdoors but I do use a gas lawnmower and an electric leaf blower.

    Our former neighbours of a couple decades though moved because of the loud neighbours behind them (loud music). A former neighbour on the other side of us would start his work truck and let it idle for 20 minutes. However, our current neighbour lets her dog bark for two to three minutes at a time (often a couple times a day) and that drives my wife nuts.
    Last edited by KC; 16-11-2018 at 10:39 AM.

  83. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Something not even mentioned. Go to any park that features a dog area. For instance Jackie Parker being a great example. A walking trail borders that dog park area, all along the ravine. Try walking that trail ANYTIME and not be run at by a dog. Try doing it. I've not been attacked on the trail but countless times I've had dogs go right up to me, jump on me, looking to get patted. The Dog owner will trot by and say "down dog, down" after my pants already have muddy paw prints on them. What cat does that? I don't dislike dogs, but I don't welcome, or want them jumping at me for attention. I actually just want to be able to walk, and hopefully not to have to do laundry after. This is happened on trails, on streets, anywhere. Dogs like me. Typically. But that doesn't mean I'm saying "hey muddy fido, autograph my clothes with your paws."

    I earlier mentioned rollerblading. Its virtually dangerous to do this with dogs around because a large dog will often submarine you walking right in front of your path. I've done headplants twice with large dogs doing this unexpectedly.

    When Cycling on multi trails its an absolute menace. Even attended dogs on leash will often charge you as you cycle by. Most cyclists have had instances where the dog or dog leash could upend you as you pass. Most owners know this and will take up the leash slack as you pass by because they know fido will want to charge and yap at every bike. Some are not aware of it. But its to the point that if I even see an owner with a dog I'm thinking potential problem.


    Then, do I have to mention it. Incessant dog barking. Mindless morning to night chatter of dogs that bark at molecules all ******* day. Residential hell is having a series of owners that think having fido outside in the yard 15hr a day or all the time is a great idea. The same people get aggravated when they are outside in the yard and the dog is being a nuisance. The only times they interject.
    Bolded: Isn't that just part of living in a city? Just like loud vehicles.
    Just like school zones, maybe we need speed limits on trails. Speed kills. Maybe 5 k/hr max. Stop the carnage on our trails!

    Plus dogs won’t be attracted to slow moving bikes any more than they are to people - which isn’t much.

  84. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Something not even mentioned. Go to any park that features a dog area. For instance Jackie Parker being a great example. A walking trail borders that dog park area, all along the ravine. Try walking that trail ANYTIME and not be run at by a dog. Try doing it. I've not been attacked on the trail but countless times I've had dogs go right up to me, jump on me, looking to get patted. The Dog owner will trot by and say "down dog, down" after my pants already have muddy paw prints on them. What cat does that? I don't dislike dogs, but I don't welcome, or want them jumping at me for attention. I actually just want to be able to walk, and hopefully not to have to do laundry after. This is happened on trails, on streets, anywhere. Dogs like me. Typically. But that doesn't mean I'm saying "hey muddy fido, autograph my clothes with your paws."

    I earlier mentioned rollerblading. Its virtually dangerous to do this with dogs around because a large dog will often submarine you walking right in front of your path. I've done headplants twice with large dogs doing this unexpectedly.

    When Cycling on multi trails its an absolute menace. Even attended dogs on leash will often charge you as you cycle by. Most cyclists have had instances where the dog or dog leash could upend you as you pass. Most owners know this and will take up the leash slack as you pass by because they know fido will want to charge and yap at every bike. Some are not aware of it. But its to the point that if I even see an owner with a dog I'm thinking potential problem.


    Then, do I have to mention it. Incessant dog barking. Mindless morning to night chatter of dogs that bark at molecules all ******* day. Residential hell is having a series of owners that think having fido outside in the yard 15hr a day or all the time is a great idea. The same people get aggravated when they are outside in the yard and the dog is being a nuisance. The only times they interject.
    I never got a dog until well into adulthood, yet I never saw a dog simply running at me or running up to me as a dog attacking me. I’ve had squirrels run at me too. No big deal. Had a coyote walk towards us in Laurier Park last year but it wasn’t attacking us either.

    Had a bear walk up a mountain trail towards us when we had little kids with us. That was more of an issue but we made noises and the bear turned off trail.

    A neighbour walking her dogs on our lake property had a cougar come nearby her but her dogs chased it off.

    Well, I think its safe to say when a security dog that was not properly contained within the business they are supposed to be securing is running at me full tilt and chomping at my foot as I pedal that its not to say hi or get patted. You haven't been attacked by a dog in your life, that's great. Being an avid cyclist for decades it sure does occur. Especially rurally or if cycling alongside industrial/business areas. You're living a charmed life having never been attacked by a dog. It happens to most people.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Something not even mentioned. Go to any park that features a dog area. For instance Jackie Parker being a great example. A walking trail borders that dog park area, all along the ravine. Try walking that trail ANYTIME and not be run at by a dog. Try doing it. I've not been attacked on the trail but countless times I've had dogs go right up to me, jump on me, looking to get patted. The Dog owner will trot by and say "down dog, down" after my pants already have muddy paw prints on them. What cat does that? I don't dislike dogs, but I don't welcome, or want them jumping at me for attention. I actually just want to be able to walk, and hopefully not to have to do laundry after. This is happened on trails, on streets, anywhere. Dogs like me. Typically. But that doesn't mean I'm saying "hey muddy fido, autograph my clothes with your paws."

    I earlier mentioned rollerblading. Its virtually dangerous to do this with dogs around because a large dog will often submarine you walking right in front of your path. I've done headplants twice with large dogs doing this unexpectedly.

    When Cycling on multi trails its an absolute menace. Even attended dogs on leash will often charge you as you cycle by. Most cyclists have had instances where the dog or dog leash could upend you as you pass. Most owners know this and will take up the leash slack as you pass by because they know fido will want to charge and yap at every bike. Some are not aware of it. But its to the point that if I even see an owner with a dog I'm thinking potential problem.


    Then, do I have to mention it. Incessant dog barking. Mindless morning to night chatter of dogs that bark at molecules all ******* day. Residential hell is having a series of owners that think having fido outside in the yard 15hr a day or all the time is a great idea. The same people get aggravated when they are outside in the yard and the dog is being a nuisance. The only times they interject.
    Bolded: Isn't that just part of living in a city? Just like loud vehicles.
    Just like school zones, maybe we need speed limits on trails. Speed kills. Maybe 5 k/hr max. Stop the carnage on our trails!

    Plus dogs won’t be attracted to slow moving bikes any more than they are to people - which isn’t much.
    Another ridiculous response. The solution is clear. Ban dogs with a propensity for aggression that are a risk to attack. Like countless jurisdictions have done. Its funny that the COE is willing to adopt any stupid idea of major cities but its in the dark ages in relation to dog bans or enforcement.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    ...

    Just like school zones, maybe we need speed limits on trails. Speed kills. Maybe 5 k/hr max. Stop the carnage on our trails!

    Plus dogs wonít be attracted to slow moving bikes any more than they are to people - which isnít much.
    seriously? that train of thought is a bit of trainwreckÖ

    if it had any validity, then the logical conclusion would be to ban people and bikes from trails entirely.

    the problem isn't bikes or people using the trails (and parks and playgrounds and school-yards etc.), it's the uncontrolled dogs and their undisciplined, disrespectful owners.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  87. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    ...

    Just like school zones, maybe we need speed limits on trails. Speed kills. Maybe 5 k/hr max. Stop the carnage on our trails!

    Plus dogs won’t be attracted to slow moving bikes any more than they are to people - which isn’t much.
    seriously? that train of thought is a bit of trainwreck…

    if it had any validity, then the logical conclusion would be to ban people and bikes from trails entirely.

    the problem isn't bikes or people using the trails (and parks and playgrounds and school-yards etc.), it's the uncontrolled dogs and their undisciplined, disrespectful owners.


    The problem as always is people trying to coexist. If it weren’t bikers complaining about dogs it would be walkers complaining about bikes. (Not ringing bells, riding too fast...). Everyone has a pet peeve and is capable of ignoring and being unaffected by other’s pet peeves.

  88. #88
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    https://www.pressreader.com/canada/o...81998968493950

    interesting approach to accountability - 12 demerits and you lose your dog...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  89. #89

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    " In one instance, O’Donnell described how he was following another downtown resident, a young woman, out of an LRT, when they came upon a group partying on the stairs and blocking the way out.

    The young woman turned around at once, but O’Donnell confronted the group. “I went up and said, ‘You guys can’t just block this.’ And they became very aggressive. Of course, I’m not Superman so I actually had to turn around and go back down … I thought to myself, ‘What if you were a visitor and you were going up to your hotel? What if that was my sister walking late at night?’ That is not what downtown Edmonton is all about. It really bothered me.”"

    PLEASE dont tell me this is actually IANO.

    Youre lucky you didnt get stabbed, guys trying to make the neighborhood a more family freindly place i guess.
    Friendly neighborhood (non-double poster) photographer.

  90. #90
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    I would have done it again. Time for some zero tolerance and accountability for those choosing to disregard public safety and respect for others... Downtown, Chinatown, Whyte or any part of our fair city for that matter.
    www.decl.org

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  91. #91

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    I have my disagreements with you Ian but please don't become a statistic. I'm glad you finally got to experience what has been a typical experience for many for a long time. It's not a unique problem to Edmonton in any regard though.

  92. #92

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    A couple weeks ago we had a family gathering and went to cross the street over to the McDonald Hotel from the south-west side of 100st & Jasper Ave. We thought we could just go under the street (via the LRT entrance at the SW corner of Jasper Ave).

    Well, the staircase was extremely dirty and covered with litter, it was poorly lit, looked rather dilapidated AND when we got to the bottom the east door was locked. So our group then had to climb back out and cross at grade. Maybe there was a sign of some sort but I sued didn’t notice it.

    Anyway this one staircase sure makes our city look bad. Think of tourists and business people staying in our core, at the landmark hotel and then seeing such a s__tty piece of core infrastructure that is made to look even sh_tier through zero maintenance AND locked doors.

    I don’t live downtown and I no longer work downtown but I sure wouldn’t mind some of my tax dollars going to a crew of City workers that would be dedicated to making the core clean and presentable. Then some more tax dollars for just basic good lighting everywhere.
    Last edited by KC; 19-11-2018 at 12:39 PM.

  93. #93

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    The plan is to close that entrance permanently if the building proposed for that corner goes ahead so it might not be a problem much longer. Although, you'd think having a direct, climate controlled connection to the pedway would be a plus.

  94. #94

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    All this yak DBA is instigating about "disorder" downtown (the Journal last week, CBC this AM) is playing a dangerous game by conflating poverty with criminality. Benefit of the doubt that there was more nuance at the neighbourhood meeting last week but I'm not hearing/reading it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    The plan is to close that entrance permanently if the building proposed for that corner goes ahead so it might not be a problem much longer. Although, you'd think having a direct, climate controlled connection to the pedway would be a plus.
    i think the concern with the "direct, climate controlled connections" - particularly when they are underground - is the activity they too often attract and harbor (see IanO's recent experience).
    Last edited by kcantor; 19-11-2018 at 02:33 PM.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  96. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    All this yak DBA is instigating about "disorder" downtown (the Journal last week, CBC this AM) is playing a dangerous game by conflating poverty with criminality. Benefit of the doubt that there was more nuance at the neighbourhood meeting last week but I'm not hearing/reading it.
    All part of the "Downtown for everyone" plan. Everyone meaning white, affluent people. Just like the 7-11s. 99.99% of the people are fine but you can be sure you'll hear about young people being "threatening", especially people of colour.

  97. #97

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    i don't want to be too doctrinaire about it. But what I hear and read is two things: Some people are made uncomfortable by poverty and it's outcroppings panhandling, dumpster diving, bottle picking etc. And others are feeling threatened/intimidated by those who may or may not be up to no good. These are two very different kinds of "disorder" with two very different solutions. And I don't want to hear from the "broken window" theory crowd - it's been thoroughly debunked.

    If the DBA is truly interested in what's going on they should bring in the counter attendants from both 7-11's for a looooong focus group conversation.

  98. #98

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    just wanted to include a link to the story above
    https://edmontonsun.com/news/local-n...e-and-disorder

  99. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    I would have done it again. Time for some zero tolerance and accountability for those choosing to disregard public safety and respect for others... Downtown, Chinatown, Whyte or any part of our fair city for that matter.
    you dont get it, whatever you tried to do. this hero motive, catching every person that disobeys or doesnt do what you think is proper for downtown isnt the solution. Im sure youre aware of the new safe injection site being built downtown, and i guarantee youre a ****** off little bunny about it. but we NEED facilities like this. Help the needy, dont just shun them away somewhere else so theyre not downtown's problem.
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  100. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    I would have done it again. Time for some zero tolerance and accountability for those choosing to disregard public safety and respect for others... Downtown, Chinatown, Whyte or any part of our fair city for that matter.
    you dont get it, whatever you tried to do. this hero motive, catching every person that disobeys or doesnt do what you think is proper for downtown isnt the solution. Im sure youre aware of the new safe injection site being built downtown, and i guarantee youre a ****** off little bunny about it. but we NEED facilities like this. Help the needy, dont just shun them away somewhere else so theyre not downtown's problem.
    Asking people to be aware of and respect the needs of those around them (as when they are blocking a route) is fine and civil behaviour. Ordering them, telling them, implying guilt isn’t ok as it’s rude or presumptive. If could also cause a horrible and unpredictable escalation.

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