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Thread: Lewis Farms Recreation Facility and Park

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    Default Lewis Farms Recreation Facility and Park

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Not funded and will pit urban sprawl vs mature neighborhoods. It will be ugly.

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    This is something all of the West End would use from Crestwood to Rosenthal. I'm sure if it were downtown it would be approved in a heartbeat.

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    Odd reverse timeline.

    Probably, in more affluent times, this might have been a slam dunk, espy with WLRT.

    But in what are touted as tight budget times, expect delays.
    ... gobsmacked

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatestX View Post
    This is something all of the West End would use from Crestwood to Rosenthal. I'm sure if it were downtown it would be approved in a heartbeat.
    Compare the return on investment of the LF rec centre vs a single sheet of ice "community" arena downtown.

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    My guess is that this will be funded by debt and tax increases.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    Odd reverse timeline.

    Probably, in more affluent times, this might have been a slam dunk, espy with WLRT.

    But in what are touted as tight budget times, expect delays.
    Unfortunately there is a huge disconnect between WLRT and the recreation centre.
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    It's too bad that River Cree couldn't have an idea to build a couple more rinks next to the two they already have at the casino, they would most likely have them booked solid. This would help ease off some pressure on the west end of the city for more arenas, especially until the rec center could be built.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Seems odd to me to have major Rec Centers in the precise locations that they are. Being fairly on the edge of cities. Lewis Farms and Meadows Rec Center being examples of this. Aside from YMCA Jamie Platz rec Center it would seem the South WEst end could use some more facility but in terms of proximity Lewis farms seems to be a poor location. I'm a little less enthused as well about expectations of people living outside the Henday boundaries feeling that they ought to have this service outside the Henday. One would think there would be a realization of living in the boondocks. Wouldn't some location in Terralosa area or bigger Rec facility at Jasper Place/St FX make more sense. Or some location more easily accessed?

    Glad the city said no to this. What is the pop of Lewis fArms/Lewis Estates? Is it enough to warrant this?

    Having said that I go to Meadows to work out, love it, but its location is poor. Its surrounded by two sides of essentially nothing. no build up. It is not a close facility for very many residents. I would think these massive high priced rec centers should be located more in middle of pop densities to provide most efficient catchment access. It seems instead COE wants cheapest possible land price that could be driving these out of the way locations. I'll say this too. Meadows is fantastic, but in no way does the usage or patronage of the facility warrant its existence. Its fairly insane how low the numbers are. Its never crowded, never close to being at capacity. It feels like an incredible luxury in comparison to any other work out places.

    The thing that is odd too is that the Millwoods Rec Center work out area is a ******** compared to Meadows. Basically anybody would rather go to Meadows. The problem for many Millwoods residents being that this could involve aa 10km drive. So that MEADOWS is a premium gem facility far from most of the population density.

    So even though I love it, pragmatically I do not feel the facility should exist. The expenditure is unwarranted. The numbers seem shockingly low. Terwillegar for instance seems a lot more busy any time I've been around there.
    Last edited by Replacement; 16-11-2018 at 11:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    i've participated in enough of these to know that the "what we heard" is most often what they wanted to hear before they started. they manage the process and the timing and the information and the locations and the participants and the options that get presented and the matrix that is used to assess things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Seems odd to me to have major Rec Centers in the precise locations that they are. Being fairly on the edge of cities. Lewis Farms and Meadows Rec Center being examples of this. Aside from YMCA Jamie Platz rec Center it would seem the South WEst end could use some more facility but in terms of proximity Lewis farms seems to be a poor location. I'm a little less enthused as well about expectations of people living outside the Henday boundaries feeling that they ought to have this service outside the Henday. One would think there would be a realization of living in the boondocks. Wouldn't some location in Terralosa area or bigger Rec facility at Jasper Place/St FX make more sense. Or some location more easily accessed?

    Glad the city said no to this. What is the pop of Lewis fArms/Lewis Estates? Is it enough to warrant this?
    The new neighbourhoods are dense. Lewis Estates not so much, but Secord and Rosenthal are sardine can developments for the most part. The people are crammed in there. Lot of new families moving in.
    In a way, this rec centre would serve people who live all the way down in Edgemont, although those people have the option of going to Terwillegar as well.

    But I do agree on the location. The established neighbourhoods on the west end have had a mish mash of crap for the past 3 decades: poor facility at JP, arena in Callingwood and a dinky YMCA taking up the lack of a real training facility.

    A brand new complex should have been planned for Callingwood where Lois Hole Library is.

    I suppose ultimately I'm not against the location, but the new neighbourhoods have to fill in first or else, like you said in the case of Meadows, it's not going to be well-used.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Seems odd to me to have major Rec Centers in the precise locations that they are. Being fairly on the edge of cities. Lewis Farms and Meadows Rec Center being examples of this. Aside from YMCA Jamie Platz rec Center it would seem the South WEst end could use some more facility but in terms of proximity Lewis farms seems to be a poor location. I'm a little less enthused as well about expectations of people living outside the Henday boundaries feeling that they ought to have this service outside the Henday. One would think there would be a realization of living in the boondocks. Wouldn't some location in Terralosa area or bigger Rec facility at Jasper Place/St FX make more sense. Or some location more easily accessed?

    Glad the city said no to this. What is the pop of Lewis fArms/Lewis Estates? Is it enough to warrant this?

    Having said that I go to Meadows to work out, love it, but its location is poor. Its surrounded by two sides of essentially nothing. no build up. It is not a close facility for very many residents. I would think these massive high priced rec centers should be located more in middle of pop densities to provide most efficient catchment access. It seems instead COE wants cheapest possible land price that could be driving these out of the way locations. I'll say this too. Meadows is fantastic, but in no way does the usage or patronage of the facility warrant its existence. Its fairly insane how low the numbers are. Its never crowded, never close to being at capacity. It feels like an incredible luxury in comparison to any other work out places.

    The thing that is odd too is that the Millwoods Rec Center work out area is a ******** compared to Meadows. Basically anybody would rather go to Meadows. The problem for many Millwoods residents being that this could involve aa 10km drive. So that MEADOWS is a premium gem facility far from most of the population density.

    So even though I love it, pragmatically I do not feel the facility should exist. The expenditure is unwarranted. The numbers seem shockingly low. Terwillegar for instance seems a lot more busy any time I've been around there.
    I’ve long argued that public facilities should be in prime locations where their presence creates added synergies. Putting them in out of the way locations might save up front on land costs but means the facilities live or die based on their initial dedicated designs. Less alternative use options.

    Then with facilities that employ larger numbers of people, there are no spin off benefits. (For instance puttting a provincial building stuffed with employees on some out of the way side street in a small town such as is the case in Peace River, Edson, etc. just means that the employees brown bag it everyday rather than spending lunch money downtown to support the economy.). Same in the city here where employee spending could create added private sector jobs in neighbouring strip malls etc.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Seems odd to me to have major Rec Centers in the precise locations that they are. Being fairly on the edge of cities. Lewis Farms and Meadows Rec Center being examples of this. Aside from YMCA Jamie Platz rec Center it would seem the South WEst end could use some more facility but in terms of proximity Lewis farms seems to be a poor location. I'm a little less enthused as well about expectations of people living outside the Henday boundaries feeling that they ought to have this service outside the Henday. One would think there would be a realization of living in the boondocks. Wouldn't some location in Terralosa area or bigger Rec facility at Jasper Place/St FX make more sense. Or some location more easily accessed?

    Glad the city said no to this. What is the pop of Lewis fArms/Lewis Estates? Is it enough to warrant this?
    The new neighbourhoods are dense. Lewis Estates not so much, but Secord and Rosenthal are sardine can developments for the most part. The people are crammed in there. Lot of new families moving in.
    In a way, this rec centre would serve people who live all the way down in Edgemont, although those people have the option of going to Terwillegar as well.

    But I do agree on the location. The established neighbourhoods on the west end have had a mish mash of crap for the past 3 decades: poor facility at JP, arena in Callingwood and a dinky YMCA taking up the lack of a real training facility.

    A brand new complex should have been planned for Callingwood where Lois Hole Library is.

    I suppose ultimately I'm not against the location, but the new neighbourhoods have to fill in first or else, like you said in the case of Meadows, it's not going to be well-used.
    How much has the city been guilty of playing carrot with developers? This has been going on forever, as long as Millwoods, itself, has existed, and Millwoods Rec Center and its facilities were the plum. If the city is doing this consciously, and intently then kickback of funding of these facilities should have occurred with developers. (I'm not sure if that arrangement has ever occurred) It seems so much like theres an attempt at enticing people to buy in these newer areas and putting cart in front of horse. Of course any of the long standing residents in long established areas of westend have every reason to complain. They deserve a facility, but it shouldn't be located way off in Lewis Farms.

    I'm probably over thinking it though. In reality its probably just cheap fringe land prices driving these but that is counter productive. That does not encourage walkability, access, less reliance on vehicles etc. The city is guilty of these poor decisions in locations of Meadow Rec Center, library, and also the Meadows Transit Terminal. Really odd locations for any of these.
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    Was the City not the developer of Millwoods?

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    I can't understand why they are locating Rec Centres and Transit Centres in different locations. Look at Meadows and Leger for examples.

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    I cannot understand why the city should be on the hook for building, maintain, operating and staffing these facilities. The costs are huge... Perhaps the city should donate the land to a private entity to build a rec centre ? These rec centres hardly sound like a core municipal function.

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    Theres places with privately owned roads where you pay a toll to use them. Same with Police & Fire services. Libraries are competition for bookstores. Public transit?

    Privatize all them too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Theres places with privately owned roads where you pay a toll to use them. Same with Police & Fire services. Libraries are competition for bookstores. Public transit?

    Privatize all them too?
    interesting question - was it rhetorical or meant to be the start of a serious discussion?
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    The city says they want a lot of infill and growth in the mature neighbourhoods, but then builds these gems of facilities out past the Henday. And does minor renos to places like Bonnie Doon, Hardisty, and hopefully Scona.

    Compare the busy-ness of the new ones versus their location. The claireview rec centre is great, surrounded by density and extremely busy well up to closing time. Meadows is dead most of the time because it's surrounded by parking lots and farmers fields.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Meadows is dead most of the time because it's surrounded by parking lots and farmers fields.
    Every time I have been to Meadows it has been absolutely packed. Not sure what time of the day you are going to have such a different experience?

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by AUsenik View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Meadows is dead most of the time because it's surrounded by parking lots and farmers fields.
    Every time I have been to Meadows it has been absolutely packed. Not sure what time of the day you are going to have such a different experience?
    What do you consider packed? I've rarely even seen the surrounding overflow parking used. never been in there once where I would even consider it remotely crowded.


    Any World Health Club or Good Life in the city is way more packed than Meadows. Not complaining, but theres no way its getting the kind of usage it should, or Terwillegar is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Theres places with privately owned roads where you pay a toll to use them. Same with Police & Fire services. Libraries are competition for bookstores. Public transit?

    Privatize all them too?
    interesting question - was it rhetorical or meant to be the start of a serious discussion?
    A little of each I suppose. All those I mentioned do exist, although not in the same place. I suppose the question is, what are considered core civic services and is that all the city should be involved in.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    I cannot understand why the city should be on the hook for building, maintain, operating and staffing these facilities. The costs are huge... Perhaps the city should donate the land to a private entity to build a rec centre ? These rec centres hardly sound like a core municipal function.
    “the cost of the downtown bike lanes over four years is equal to about eight years of operations for the three pools...”

    Pool closures unfortunate, but cities often have to make tough decisions | Edmonton Sun

    “But at $8 million to build and around $1 million a year to maintain, the cost of the downtown bike lanes over four years is equal to about eight years of operations for the three pools and arena on the chopping block.

    So the potential closures are not about saving money. They are about shifting money from activities that council and the administration no longer consider “cool,” to trendy new activities that mesmerize them. ...”

    https://edmontonsun.com/opinion/colu...ough-decisions
    Last edited by KC; 17-11-2018 at 02:38 AM.

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    As it has been brought up, I think a wise thing to look at central rec centers such as Bonnie Doon area, and older rec centers such as Mill Woods and consider major upgrades. I think there is enough land at the Mill Woods facility to add at least one more rink, if not a couple, a gymnasium and a much better workout room. Climbing wall would also be great
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Theres places with privately owned roads where you pay a toll to use them. Same with Police & Fire services. Libraries are competition for bookstores. Public transit?

    Privatize all them too?
    interesting question - was it rhetorical or meant to be the start of a serious discussion?
    A little of each I suppose. All those I mentioned do exist, although not in the same place. I suppose the question is, what are considered core civic services and is that all the city should be involved in.
    Or how much is required in the public, vs private sector. In one generation we have leaped to a quantum shift in what COE facilities are.

    Grew up in a neighborhood that had one sheet of outdoor ice. with one very tiny barely heated skate shack. No washrooms. Basically nada. the thing looked like it was built out of old shiplap or plywood and coats of white paint. Primitive as can be. The other facility for miles around was a simple outdoor pool. That was it, that was everything. There were no huge luxury pools, huge rec centers with design awards worth hundreds of millions of bucks each. There was none of this.

    I'm in my 50's. In terms of rec provision of facilities the leap has been quantum. But should it have occurred, and to the degree it has.

    The greatest irony perhaps is the city shutting down a lot of smaller facitilities like I remember (because they can't afford them) while building multiple rec palaces around the city which are enormously expensive just to run. Meadows for instance wouldn't even carry operational costs on membership fees collected. Membership might not even pay for the heating and utilities. Would be surprised if it does.

    We may even get to the point in this city where we have these fantastic Rec Centers and from a city POV we can't even afford to operate them at which point they would be sold pennies on the dollar to private sector. Which is already being discussed apparently.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4403363/c...-centres-cost/


    The no to the Lewis Farms Rec Center was a long time coming. In reality there should've been a no to Meadows as well. Its really performing poorly and the pool was already shut down twice and once for around 9-10mths.
    Last edited by Replacement; 17-11-2018 at 12:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Theres places with privately owned roads where you pay a toll to use them. Same with Police & Fire services. Libraries are competition for bookstores. Public transit?

    Privatize all them too?
    The problem is we cannot afford these things. Everything the city builds something it seems to win some award for something, best building in North America, first in class for this and that.
    Like I said, building these things is one cost, it's the operating cost every year after that. This merry go round of the city spending millions, then raising taxes simply has to stop.
    Police and fire, they are rapidly getting out of control as well. I wonder how many of those personnel are in it for the money/ benefits or to serve the community. At an accident in our neighbourhood where there were injuries the police did not even show up ! It was left to the fire dept to clean up the mess and EMS to take the injured person to hospital. Now we even are encouraged to file crimes on line.
    All of this is a classic sign that the city is trying to do too much and cannot because of cost.
    Should the city ( or government for that matter) be in the business of being in business ?
    Even one of the councillors mentioned that the city should look at fully contracting out waste disposal.

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