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Thread: Build a large artificial "beach" in the River Valley

  1. #101

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    ^
    With the pier already constructed at convention, maybe it might be the best pragmatic option. That might even bring the mass to use that area and encourage steadfast development in the Quarters.

  2. #102

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    ^^ looks like a prime skateboard park, ramps, rails etc. Hope the sand would slow them down!

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Pour a bunch of sand for sitting on and some for beach volleyball in LMP. Done.

    ...but that's not a beach as described...that is a sandbox with a volleyball court..


    built a beach...or don't...but beaches imply water access and swimming/boating per se...


    ...don't believe me...tell your friends that you are going to the beach...see how many look for swim gear...or get all self conscious about the same...


    Do it... or don't...no partially pregnant ideas anymore please....


    ...otherwise...do a San Antonio River Walk...or a pier set up as Ander says...
    Onward and upward

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    I merged the two beach threads into one.

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    Build the canal in Rossdale.
    Filter the river water going into the canal.
    Build the beach along the canal, put boats on it.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  6. #106

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    AHS will never allow it. I'm surprised they haven't made it illegal to catch raindrops on your tongue.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    ^ ...just snowflakes...

    ...it seems every time water is brought into a conversation, things get hypocritical...
    Onward and upward

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    Will they ever and also build the much needed and discussed weir downstream, for flow control
    Still waiting for the Arlington site to be reborn .......

  9. #109

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    ^ only Clagary can mess with the water flowing their their city to make artifical rapids. We must not touch our river! Heaven forbid if a an inedible fish should not survive jumping over such said weir.

    Personally I think its a great idea.

  10. #110

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    im all for a beach but whats going to happen if water gets high like it did this year the beach would be flooded out unless they have some sort of plan for this i cant see this working imo

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    that is what part of the purpose of a weir
    from Wiki (not leaking)
    "A weir ( /ˈwɪər/) is a barrier across a river designed to alter the flow characteristics. In most cases, weirs take the form of a barrier, smaller than most conventional dams, across a river that causes water to pool behind the structure (not unlike a dam) and allows water to flow over the top. Weirs are commonly used to alter the flow regime of the river, prevent flooding, measure discharge and help render a river navigable."
    Still waiting for the Arlington site to be reborn .......

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    Perhaps we need to think bigger. Rather than proposing a weir for recreational purposes, how about a run of the river hydroelectric project? Something like this one Transalta wants to build on the Peace river. Put it somewhere between the Clover Bar and Fort Saskatchewan, and we will get the same effect through the city.

  13. #113

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    ^you mean, like Glenmore reservoir? Wouldn't the refineries get a bit wet?



    http://www.flickr.com/photos/stecyk/3788491031/

  14. #114

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    Why cant we do this? Pool in the river... done and done!

    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    ^^ Not that big. The Peace river project is projected to raise water levels by a maximum of 6.6 m, which on the North Saskatchewan would be much less than the depth of the river valley.

  16. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkmagnoblade View Post
    im all for a beach but whats going to happen if water gets high like it did this year the beach would be flooded out unless they have some sort of plan for this i cant see this working imo
    It's sand, it's 'dirt' cheap, replace any that gets washed away once every 30 or so years.

    Or put it below govt house. That plateau sits well above high water. And don't buy sand from the place that sold the government the Kananaskis golfcourse sand unless there's gold in it.

    http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/city/..._metric_e.html


    Fall is here:

    "Issued : 5:00 AM MDT Saturday 22 September 2012


    Today Sunny... High 25. UV index 4 or moderate...

    Sunday Sunny. High 26.

    Monday Sunny. Low 10. High 24.

    Tuesday A mix of sun and cloud. Low 8. High 21.

    Wednesday Sunny. Low 8. High 19.

    Thursday Sunny. Low 6. High 19.

    Friday Sunny. Low 6. High 22."...
    Last edited by KC; 22-09-2012 at 06:44 AM.

  17. #117

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    Slightly off topic, visible sandbars down between the Dawson Bridge (more jackhammering this morning!) and the dragonboat dock. The river is low.
    I think of art, at its most significant, as a Distant Early Warning system that can always be relied on to tell the old culture what is beginning to happen to it. —Marshall McLuhan

  18. #118

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    Below is an inspiring thread since few would prefer artificial over the real thing. However, done tastefully an artificial beach in the river valley could meld aspects of the natural world and the "man made" world into a very memorable experience.

    Lost Creeks and Wetlands of Edmonton
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ad.php?t=33066

    "Don Faulkner can remember a time in Edmonton when you could hop on a streetcar on Whyte Avenue that would transport you to a lake the size of 10 city blocks where the McKernan subdivision now stands.

    It was here in wintertime where thousands of people would go skating beneath the glow of outdoor lights or tobogganing down a huge slide that had been built on the lakeshore"...

    "Many people feel a strong connection with water," says Martell. "Most of us have childhood memories of swimming at the lake, romping on the beach and playing in small streams near our homes. Water enhances perception of a place. As the history of McKernan Lake has shown, these lakes and streams can act as anchor points for society. They also enhance property values. As we lose creeks and wetlands, we also lose some of the ties that bind us all together." ...

    "But with the state of the city's budget, I think that realistically it is still some years away. Right now, there isn't the budget for innovative projects like this, and without a lot of public support, it would be a difficult sell. It would, however, be interesting to try." ...
    Last edited by KC; 11-05-2013 at 07:53 AM.

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    It's not about being in the water, it's about being beside the water. Note in the article the comments about the business development success. It's a 'destination' for tens of thousands.


    BBC News - The 'embarrassing' Italian holiday riviera

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19361279

    "What is unique about this coast, stretching 68 miles from Ravenna down to the south of Rimini, is its enormous popularity - in spite of the unanimous agreement that the sea is, well, just not very nice."

    "It is a turbid greenish-brown that makes you feel like you are swimming in a giant muddy puddle..."

    "Most astonishing of all is that nobody cares. That is because bathing is not what coastal tourism here is about."...

    "Incredible to think that not long ago this was mostly undeveloped, malaria-infested marshland."
    Note the picture in the article of the "Beach Cinema" and the huge screen.

    "Families are catered for with evening entertainment including live music and beach cinemas"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19361279


    Another quote:

    "It was the Italian dictator Mussolini, born nearby, who really launched it as a tourist destination, promoting development, building large concrete holiday camps...

    It became the seaside destination for the children of millions of north Italian factory workers.

    Since then, the Riviera Romagnola has never looked back. Rimini with the legacy of its homegrown film director Federico Fellini, Cervia with its historic salt pans, Milano Marittima constructed last century by Milanese builders... all these resorts are now famous nationwide.

    The appeal of the Riviera Romagnola today is all down to the shrewd charm of the Romagnoli. They have earned a reputation for unequalled seaside hospitality.

    From push-chair to pensioner, the Riviera promises something for everyone, with the emphasis on fun and indulgence.

    Hundreds of top quality seafood restaurants, thousands of piadina kiosks selling the famous local flatbread, millions of overflowing gelato cones. Every sport, health and shopping facility your heart desires...

    As for evening entertainment, there are live bands playing waltzes for the old-timers, exclusive VIP beach parties for the new-timers..." "
    Last edited by KC; 11-05-2013 at 08:03 AM.

  20. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat View Post
    There's an artificial beach next to the Brisbane River in Brisbane, Australia. It includes a water park with all sorts of crazy sprinklers, and there's an adjacent market with all sorts of artist booths and food vendors. Really cool. The river is visible in a couple of the photos.
    I took these photos in April.




    Looks a bit like Hawrelak. Put the in-water rubber barrier solution around part of the perimeter and clean and filter some beach side water and you've got a very similar recreational area.

    Or create an artificial lake and beach where the Victoria Park skating rink is. The cleaned water for it could then be re-used to power the high-level bridge's waterfall so some of the budget for dumping good clean drinking water into the river could be used to first provide it for swimming.
    Last edited by KC; 11-05-2013 at 08:15 AM.

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    Get out your sunscreen — Edmonton urban beach could be on the way

    EDMONTON - The city should spend $1.4 million on an urban beach as part of upgrades to Louise McKinney Park, a new report recommends.
    The 800-square-metre beach, twice the size first proposed last spring, would be set back from the water near the existing café, the report released Thursday says.
    There wouldn’t be swimming or access to the North Saskatchewan River.
    But the space would feature cool misting spray, colourful seats and umbrellas, and room for yoga, beach volleyball, music and large-screen movies.
    There would be lights, portable fire pits and a new restaurant to make the area attractive in winter as well.
    Visitors would reach the beach on an asphalt path or a staircase being put in as part of $12.5 million worth of long-term improvements that started in 2012.
    However, the report suggests delaying work until the nearby Valley Line LRT bridge is finished because noise, dust and equipment will disrupt the park for years.
    The proposal is to start installing the beach and other amenities, such as a restaurant and two plazas, around 2018, said Roger Jevne, director of the community strategies and development branch.
    This would allow the LRT and the park upgrades to be ready at the same time in 2020, he said.
    Sandy lounging spots are popular in Europe and elsewhere in North America. Canadian examples include Clock Tower Beach in Montreal’s Old Port and Toronto’s Sugar Beach, a converted parking lot in a former harbourfront industrial area.
    More: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...829/story.html
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  22. #122
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    I still don't like the idea of a beach separated uphill from the river. As suggested previously, build a pier and turn that into a riverside beach.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dialog View Post
    Slightly off topic, visible sandbars down between the Dawson Bridge (more jackhammering this morning!) and the dragonboat dock. The river is low.
    the river is in fact quite high at this point (as it always is at this time of year). not at the flood watch levels of the last several but high nonetheless. you can gauge that better by looking at how little height is left between the green on the banks and the level of the water than by looking at the sand bars and noting that all of those areas where you can normally walk along the river's edge are well under water at the moment. if anything, the sandbars are a reflection of how high levels have been in the past number of years as they're what's been deposited after high levels have scoured the banks further upstream.

    if you want to track it visually or numerically in more detail, alberta environment provides the levels on line and updates them hourly both in spreadsheet and graphic formats ( http://www.environment.alberta.ca/ap...n=4&DataType=1 ):

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I still don't like the idea of a beach separated uphill from the river. As suggested previously, build a pier and turn that into a riverside beach.
    I like this new space and wish we had about 4 more of them along the river as a unique experience area... but I would also like to see something along the river.
    www.decl.org

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  25. #125

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    Isn't this the kind of city wide amenity that should be considered for Blatchford? Perchance to dream, you might even be able to swim in the water.

    My problem with this is Mckeen's comment about LMP being underutilized. Sand is not the answer to what ails LMP.

  26. #126
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    LMP is more unknown than anything. Great vistas, benches, fields, riverwalk, dock, paths, picnic areas, shade, sun and some amenity now.

    It is one of my preferred places for a Sunday aft.
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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    Isn't this the kind of city wide amenity that should be considered for Blatchford? Perchance to dream, you might even be able to swim in the water.

    My problem with this is Mckeen's comment about LMP being underutilized. Sand is not the answer to what ails LMP.
    don't worry, you'll see blatchford first, in whatever form it takes or doesn't.

    and i still don't quite get it.

    the total cost of this project is 1.4 million and it's received as much exposure as blatchford where we walked away from who knows how much more than that in design fees alone in the last year for something we're not going to do because something less is good enough for us...

    and this one isn't even proposed to start construction for another six years (2020) because "it might get damaged as part of the lrt construction in the meantime".

    by that reasoning we shouldn't have done jasper avenue either because we tore it up before it was even finished for a bunch of 1" steel plates every hundred feet or so covering something, i'm not sure what or why.

    and maybe we could have just put temporary barricades up and down 108th street without bothering to do anything first and saved all that money.

    and maybe we shouldn't have marketed our tunneling expertise to the rest of the world because we "only" made a 10% return on almost $30 million dollars in work utilizing equipment and resources we already owned and will continue to own. that only would have built the improvements under discussion here two and half times over in the next six years. assuming of course it won't cost any more in 2020 than it will today.

    and we're going to get out of the tunneling business where we made a buck and open up a land and building development business because we all know easy it is to do that right and profitably.

    and yes, i'm actually having a good day today but there's a theme here that i'm afraid is the tip of an iceberg i really don't want to run into.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  28. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    LMP is more unknown than anything. Great vistas, benches, fields, riverwalk, dock, paths, picnic areas, shade, sun and some amenity now.

    It is one of my preferred places for a Sunday aft.
    I agree people aren't aware of the space but doesn't that fall on the city which decided to shell out for a bandstand but not any programming? Monthly evening/aft. concerts would be a nice start. Outside of Hip Hop in the park it's crickets down there.

    This is what I mean by sand not being the answer. What is there now needs to be put to use before we spend more money on gimmicks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    Isn't this the kind of city wide amenity that should be considered for Blatchford? Perchance to dream, you might even be able to swim in the water.
    A beach on Lake Blatchford Stormwater Pond Blatchford?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  30. #130

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    Maybe something to learn from here...
    15 Best Artificial Beaches In The World (PHOTOS, POLL)
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0...e_River_Berlin

    This also looked interesting....

    Last edited by KC; 14-06-2014 at 09:00 AM.

  31. #131
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    Lydia Neufeld
    @LydiaNeufeldCBC

    No vote from city cmte on Urban beach @ Louise McKinney Pk - requisitioned to full council mtg. #cbc #yeg
    Jun. 16, 2014

    Lydia Neufeld
    @LydiaNeufeldCBC

    Counc McKeen says remove sand from dev proj for #yeg Louise McKinney Pk - save $800 thou. #cbc
    Jun. 16, 2014

    Lydia Neufeld
    @LydiaNeufeldCBC

    Counc McKeen suggests no sand for Louise McKinney Pk - cost for sand $800 thou.#cbc
    Jun. 16, 2014

    Lydia Neufeld
    @LydiaNeufeldCBC

    Counc Sohi - more rec uses in McKinney Park good for ppl who live in downtown #cbc #yeg #urban beach
    Jun. 16, 2014

    Lydia Neufeld
    @LydiaNeufeldCBC

    Counc Sohi - move away from beach call it "sand based rec experience". Supports plan for urban beach Louise McKinney Pk #yeg #cbc
    Jun. 16, 2014

    Lydia Neufeld
    @LydiaNeufeldCBC

    #yeg counc. cmte talking urban beach Louis McKinney Park. Counc Nickel wants to put proposal to bed. Counc Henderson wants go ahead. #cbc
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  32. #132

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    Secret downtown beach could be a game-changer for Edmonton | Edmonton Journal

    Excerpts:

    A large volume of sand and silt settled over roughly one-kilometre-long strip, about 25 metres wide, on the south side of the bank.
    ...

    Bunner has lived in Cloverdale for 30 years and has never seen anything like this beach. The sand quality at the west tip of Cloverdale beach is as good as anything he’s seen in Hawaii or Mexico, he said.

    More people are discovering the beach all the time, but there’s plenty of beach for everyone, Bunner said. “This is huge.”

    The only downside right now is intermittent construction noise.

    Kids and non-swimmers shouldn’t go into the fast river current and life-jackets are a good idea for anyone planning a swim, Bunner said, but it’s great fun to float in a life-jacket or swim from one end of the beach to the other, then walk back.
    ...

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...r-for-edmonton
    Last edited by KC; 19-08-2017 at 09:28 AM.

  33. #133

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    Getty images:

    http://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/new...re-id108493811

    http://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/new...re-id108493814

    "Tourist sunbathe on an artificial beach on the banks of Rome's...

    Inspired by a similar project started on the Seine river in Paris, this summer in Rome, Romans and tourists can relax in a lounge chair along the Tiber 'beach'. The Tevere Village has been set up on both sides of the river between Ponte Sant'Angelo and Ponte Umberto, complete with sand, showers, changing rooms and 2 swimming pools; people can also play mini golf, boccio, billiards and get a workout. and there is two bars and two restaurants as well as live music in Rome, Italy on June 25th, 2005.

    Tourist sunbathe on an artificial beach on the banks of Rome's Tiber river near Vatican's St. Peter's basilica in Rome, Italy on June 25th, 2005.
    June 25, 2005Licence "

    Rome's Tiber River Draws Crowds Once Again : NPR

    "In Rome, it's the height of the tourist season and, in addition to Roman ruins, baroque palaces and the Vatican, there's something new for visitors to see.

    After decades of neglect, the banks of the river Tiber — which winds its way through the Eternal City — have been spruced up.

    The city lit up the banks of the Tiber on the night of the summer solstice with 2,758 torches, equal to the number of years since the city was founded.

    The event was part of a series of efforts to bring people back to the river. Art from Rome's mythic past has been etched into the Tiber's flood walls. A beach has been installed not far from the Vatican. Tourist boats now ply the river's waters.

    Romans have responded enthusiastically to the changes, renewing their connection with the river in droves."

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4717693
    Rome’s river gets a new life – The Denver Post
    http://www.denverpost.com/2005/07/19...ts-a-new-life/


    World’s must stunning man-made beaches | Fox News

    http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2014/0...e-beaches.html
    Waikiki Beach Is Totally Man-Made (And Disappearing). Can Hawaii Save It? | HuffPost

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6835424
    Last edited by KC; 19-08-2017 at 09:29 AM.

  34. #134
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    A swiftly moving river is no place for public beaches. I personally become very nervous when going near the river with my sonny boy. All we need is for our children to be floating towards saskatchewan in cheap plastic toys and/or just plain outrightly getting sucked into death. Same goes for folks of all ages. How about more man made lakes with beaches that are not private. A dozen summerside style PUBLIC beaches in the area would be great but beach play areas along a dangerous and deadly river, no way.

  35. #135

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    There are safe areas on the river.

    Let's not fear monger as you can drown in your bathtub too.

    In the USA, one person drowns each day in their bathtub.

    A shocking dozen a day in Japan
    According to a report from Japan, 4,866 people drowned to death in a bathtub at households in 2014, up from 2,870 in 2004. That is comparable to the number of people killed in traffic accidents in Japan, which reached 4,177 in 2015.
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  36. #136
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    So what? It wouldn't hurt to have a few more drowned in the N. Sask.? I fail to understand your logic. (or unlogic). It's unsafe and at least council has recognized this fact. A beach in the valley back away from the river would be fine though.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 20-08-2017 at 10:36 AM.

  37. #137

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    How about creating a safe bay in Laurier Park by excavating an adjacency hole and a channel to create a cleaning flow? Something about the size of a small pond with the beach surrounding it?

    Let's think out of the box here.
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  38. #138

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    No thinking outside of the box is required, at all.

    Stanley Park in Vancouver features the perfect example of a beach area with a public swimming pool facility just back from the beach. Something like that could be done here, It could even have been done at the bottom of LMP prior to them putting in that long concrete walkway.

    Only problem is fluctuating water levels the pool would flood once in awhile.

    I do share the concerns that wading in the NS is a bad idea as conditions are different there depending on season and you can get caught up in current quite easy. The NS is not a swimming body of water and has never been considered as such. Encouraging wading in the water would be risky for kids.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  39. #139

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    Is there not a spray park at Kinsmen and several other places?

    Looking for a more realistic beach concept. If they can do it in Paris, we should be able to do it here.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    I wonder if there would be a similar effect around the Whitemud Equine Park and Valley Zoo if a pedestrian bridge was built about 700 m east of the Quesnell Bridge.
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  41. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Is there not a spray park at Kinsmen and several other places?

    Looking for a more realistic beach concept. If they can do it in Paris, we should be able to do it here.
    heh, there'd be 20 reports saying that the water and chlorine would leach into the river, kill all the fish, yadda yadda. Remember the lame trumped up reasons the HLB waterfall was shutdown?

    I don't think the city would put a spray park near the river.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    I read a book on the history of Cloverdale, way back when, the mouth of Mill Creek (Where the Edmonton Queen docks)was a popular swimming hole. They had to stop people swimming there after a number of people drowned. I canoe on the river regularly, it deserves respect, a public beach on it is an invitation to disaster.

  43. #143

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    ^Yep. Like I mentioned earlier the NS has never been considered a safe swimming or wading river and I don't know why anybody would think exposing kids to that is a great idea. Whitemud confluence has also been the site of some tragedies.

    The NS has eddies and currents that can take people and suck them right under. Even strong swimmers.

    This article annoys me;

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...-lrt-1.4255017

    The NS is not safe for swimming nor has it ever been considered as such. Before the CBC irresponsibly quotes one user on how safe it is swimming on the river perhaps they could cross check the facts. Because quoting one guy saying the river is safe for swimming can have obvious consequences.

    Here would be a contrasting piece of information on the increase in Alberta drownings that the CBC should cross link directly in the article. Its a message apparently not getting out to more people;

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...-say-1.4254407

    Its reprehensible that the person quoted in the first CBC article is encouraging people to swim in the "SAFE" river. Worse that media is disseminating such bad advice even while they have also reported on the dangers. Also from reports more tragic drownings just this weekend. Stay safe.

    lol that in the one picture most of the beach is shaded. For most hours in a day it would not be seeing sun.
    Last edited by Replacement; 21-08-2017 at 08:38 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  44. #144

    Default

    If you have a bay cut into the bank and a depth of 2-3 feet, what is the hazard?

    Don't want to cut into the bank, then how about an accessible beach?

    How about a linear park along River Valley Road between Groat Road Bridge and the High Level Bridge? We can put up a 10 foot chain link fence if you think it is needed...

    Here are some inspirations


    Paris France









    And look, a swimming pool along the Seine River



    note: Life guard on duty...


    Inspired?
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 21-08-2017 at 08:39 AM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  45. #145

    Default

    "WHERE are they drowning?

    Natural bodies of water continue to account for the largest proportion of drownings in Alberta in 2009-2013 (63%). Lakes claimed the greatest number of lives (37%) followed by rivers and streams (26%). In 2013, 31 people drowned in a natural body of water.

    Once again bathtubs (12%) were the most common man-made setting where drowning deaths occurred in Alberta. There were 22 bathtub drownings during the five-year period (2009-2013), 8 of which occurred in 2013. Pools were another common man-made location where drowning fatalities occurred (8%). Half of all pool fatalities occurred in private pools and half occurred in public pools. "
    ...
    WHAT were they doing?

    By purpose of activity, recreational activities continue to account
    for the majority of drownings in Alberta. Over half (54%) of individuals who drowned between 2009 and 2013 were engaged in a recreational activity at the time. Among these, the most common primary recreational activity was swimming (27%) followed by non- powered boating such as canoeing or kayaking (18%). In 2013, 12 people drowned while engaged in one of these two activities; 8 while swimming and 4 while operating a non-powered boat."



    http://www.lifesaving.ca/wp-content/...eport-2016.pdf


    BC drownings:


    http://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/pub...l-drowings.pdf
    Last edited by KC; 21-08-2017 at 09:05 AM.

  46. #146

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    I read a book on the history of Cloverdale, way back when, the mouth of Mill Creek (Where the Edmonton Queen docks)was a popular swimming hole. They had to stop people swimming there after a number of people drowned. I canoe on the river regularly, it deserves respect, a public beach on it is an invitation to disaster.
    Agree on the hazard. I've been on the North Sask. in various types boats, on other rivers and lakes (various activities from river boating to canoeing to water skiing) but never on any body of water without a proper life jacket.

    So I hope you realize that that "invitation to disaster" seems to apply to you and me as well.

    Note: I also ride a bike with a helmet and now snow ski with a helmet.


    The photos posted above show how people can easily be managed for safety sake.
    Last edited by KC; 21-08-2017 at 09:00 AM.

  47. #147

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    Ocean's can be dangerous too. Doesn't stop people from enjoying them. Just about every activity we do comes with some sort of risk. Even crossing the road in this city has a risk to it.

  48. #148

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    Excerpts:
    Man-Made Beaches - from Grooming to Construction | Beachmeter
    beachmeter.com › man-made-beaches
    "Did you know that most popular beaches of the world are man-made beaches to some degree? From beach grooming to artificial islands and ...

    ...From grooming to construction of beaches, not many popular beaches of the world are untouched by human “beach optimization”.

    ...Moving towards more manmade beaches, there are hundreds of seaside resorts that don’t actually have a proper beach. To satisfy and attract clients, they sometimes construct a plain area with concrete and add a layer of sand on top. It is also common that resorts simply remove all boulders and pebbles with heavy machinery and then import sand."

    http://beachmeter.com/man-made-beaches/

  49. #149

    Default

    I guess this 'faux beach' will be a giant litter box for three months for the feral cats roaming around the river valley area. How many actual days of use will the public get out of it. It's no good on windy days as sand in sandwiches is awful. The C of E should equip their existing parks with more amenities rather than spend on trying to recreate St. Tropez North in Edmonton.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  50. #150

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I wonder if there would be a similar effect around the Whitemud Equine Park and Valley Zoo if a pedestrian bridge was built about 700 m east of the Quesnell Bridge.
    No. It's great where the pop-up beach currently is, as it'll be LRT accessible with the Muttart stop. We don't need another far-flung recreational spot that requires acres of parking.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I guess this 'faux beach' will be a giant litter box for three months for the feral cats roaming around the river valley area. How many actual days of use will the public get out of it. It's no good on windy days as sand in sandwiches is awful. The C of E should equip their existing parks with more amenities rather than spend on trying to recreate St. Tropez North in Edmonton.
    I agree. This whole idea gives new meaning to the word "tacky". It's like that indoor ski hill in Dubai, so people there can make-believe they have something close to the experience of yodeling from the Matterhorn.
    Last edited by overoceans; 21-08-2017 at 06:32 PM.

  52. #152

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I guess this 'faux beach' will be a giant litter box for three months for the feral cats roaming around the river valley area. How many actual days of use will the public get out of it. It's no good on windy days as sand in sandwiches is awful. The C of E should equip their existing parks with more amenities rather than spend on trying to recreate St. Tropez North in Edmonton.
    I agree. This whole idea gives new meaning to the word "tacky". It's like that indoor ski hill in Dubai, so people there can make-believe they have something close to the experience of yodeling from the Matterhorn.
    Yeah, or using those "tacky" indoor ice rinks and arenas in southern cities when they could, are rather SHOULD come here where we have natural cold outside and a real ice rink experience.

    Who would ever think of going INSIDE a building, anywhere, to "make-believe" that they are skating on a "real" ice rink! We have the real outdoor skating experience!
    Last edited by KC; 21-08-2017 at 10:08 PM.

  53. #153

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    Or tacky ideas like having a fake Euopean boulevard, or an indoor pirate ship with submarines. Or get this, an indoor beach and fake ocean waves so they think that they are on the banks of the North Saskatchewan River in Edmonton...

    Full circles are kind neat how they come around to the same place to bite you in the assumption...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  54. #154

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Or tacky ideas like having a fake Euopean boulevard, or an indoor pirate ship with submarines. Or get this, an indoor beach and fake ocean waves so they think that they are on the banks of the North Saskatchewan River in Edmonton...

    Full circles are kind neat how they come around to the same place to bite you in the assumption...
    Yeah or pyramidal buildings full of indoor tropical plants, or animals from warm climates being put on display here.

    What's really crazy are ideas like covered sports fields for playing summer sports in the winter of all times - like football and soccer! Or indoor pools full of fake artificially cleaned water.
    Last edited by KC; 21-08-2017 at 10:16 PM.

  55. #155

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    Or people waiting at in the snow at 30 below zero for a bus that is 30 minutes late...

    Whoops, that is real...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  56. #156

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    Fake outdoor experience in Calgary



    http://www.calgaryherald.com/cms/bin...g?size=640x420

    Swimming in Sikome
    Excerpt:

    It couldn’t have come at a more urgent time. Not long before, Calgary’s municipal brain trust had decreed that no more outdoor pools would be built. That was also when the City began curtailing the operational period of the dwindling few we did have, which, when I was a kid, used to open on Victoria Day. The City had also been considering developing lagoons along our occasionally benign rivers—which wouldn’t have taken much given that, historically, there were numerous popular swimming holes along both the Bow and Elbow rivers. But what was anglicized to become Sikome Lake derailed that.

    In August of 1978, sundry officials, including Mayor Ross Alger, gathered and, once a torrential rainstorm had concluded, cut the ribbon on a little over four football fields’ worth of family fun just waiting to be dove into. Lougheed declared that Fish Creek would be a “park for all people.” Little could he have known that on many sunny days to come, that’s exactly how many of them it seemed had already showed up at Sikome by the time you got there.

    Jim Stomp, a 37-year veteran of Alberta Parks, is the guy who’s been in charge of FCPP and, by extension, Sikome Lake for the past 16 years. He is as aware as anyone of the amount of science and effort that it takes to operate a safe, clean public facility like Sikome. “On a hot day in summer—and it doesn’t have to be a weekend, it can be a Tuesday—we’ll see 20,000 users,” he says.

    There may be a lot of kids wearing Huggies out in that water, but Stomp is proud to say that there hasn’t been a negative water-quality reading for at least five seasons. In the early years, however, Sikome was plagued by periodic closures due to either a bacteria called pseudomonas, or else schistosome—swimmer’s itch—a parasitic flatworm usually attached to waterfowl. Fecal coliform has only rarely triggered a closure, and then it was said to be primarily related to gull droppings. At one point, leeches had somehow invaded, though authorities were quick to specify that they were of the “non-bloodsucking variety.” ...


    http://www.calgaryherald.com/swimmin...139/story.html

  57. #157
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    The Muttart Conservatory is a building that, IMO, elegantly meshes with its surroundings. And the tropical plants on display are indoors, not outdoors, where they would look ridiculous against the natural environment of the valley.

    As for anything in WEM being a model for how to develop the valley, well, see my earlier reference to "tacky". And at least the fake European street is cut off from the surrounding areas by the mall itself, and it's not a taxpayer funded project to improve the natural environment.
    Last edited by overoceans; 22-08-2017 at 02:54 AM.

  58. #158

    Default

    Thank you KC for the "fake news" about Calgary.

    It shows how 20,000 people can enjoy a "fake" swim and beach.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Thank you KC for the "fake news" about Calgary.

    It shows how 20,000 people can enjoy a "fake" swim and beach.
    Well, I don't recall arguing that no one in the world had ever built a fake beach in a river valley. Just that it's a dumb idea.

  60. #160

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Thank you KC for the "fake news" about Calgary.

    It shows how 20,000 people can enjoy a "fake" swim and beach.
    Well, I don't recall arguing that no one in the world had ever built a fake beach in a river valley. Just that it's a dumb idea.
    However we now have a beach that's like other natural river and lake beaches (that would eventually be covered with overgrowth) and people still don't like the idea that people might like and enjoy it just because it's here and it doesn't fit with their preconceived notions of vacation-spot beaches - which are often just fake beaches themselves.

    I was just in the Okanagan and they have a number of beaches that people enjoy (with few actually going in the water). Those beaches exist because everything including all the overgrowth was stripped off them to leave only the sand.


    Similarly, the idea of a boardwalk along our river valley would bring out all kinds of "that's a dumb idea" comments because there is no ocean, dock or pier present but I think that a fake boardwalk would still attract Edmontonians for walking, jogging, shopping and dining just as an area of sand would attract Edmontonians for sun, sand and play - and some swimming if a pool / water feature was present.
    Last edited by KC; 22-08-2017 at 09:19 AM.

  61. #161

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    ^Its not at all so simple Alex.

    1)You can't build a big pier on the NS and have it last. This has been tried before. Ice Flows will basically destruct any such floating structure.

    2)Any such pier in anycase would have to withstand water levels that can fluctuate as much as several meters and in a short period of time.

    3) If you build a solid concrete/wood pier on solid ground you have to build it high enough to withstand high water mark. Which means the pier will be set several meters above what would usually be the water level. Meaning the first thing people would complain about is how high the pier is from the river.

    4)What happens when the mooring structure of the pier that you build is under water. For instance LMP walkway sat under water for a long period of time one summer and was thought to be placed above likely high water marks. I wonder what engineering assessments on that expensive structure have taken place since it sat under water for prolonged times. I can guarantee you that Concrete and rebar is not designed to be under water in such uses.

    5)Cost. Lets spend gobs more money for some reason like the COE always wants to. Hardly anybody uses the current expensive walkway at LMP. Lets build more there that few will use.

    6)The picture above has several towers in the background meaning its a high density development and I wonder if the beach area was tied in with that development and at least partially funded through that development as a buyer perk ala Summerside. Just wondering.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  62. #162

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    Short version of above. Anybody thinking they should have a maintained beach with facilities on the NS hasn't given one iota of thought to the drastically fluctuating historical water levels. The amount of engineering to keep a manmade beach in place through ice flows and seasonal and historic fluctuations would be a massive undertaking.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  63. #163

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    Nobody commented on this latest Epcor expense and dreamed up need.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...ver-headwaters

    So typical of Epcor. Invention of more sub fees to bills that already stretch to 200bucks/mth. 15cents added onto your monthly bill to pay for more upriver monitoring, quality of use of river so that employees like Steph Neufeld (The cited Epcor watershed expert) can swim more with her club in the river and have the water better monitored. With no question whether this latest want is specious or vested interest. Lets all spend extra, millions over the years, so that a very few people can swim *safer* in the water doing something that is poor modeling of what is inherently a dangerous activity on the NS.

    Heres another idea. Don't spend more money, don't swim in the river. Simple.
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-08-2017 at 10:20 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  64. #164

    Default

    ^Yeah, I read that yesterday. Another way to fleece us out of money so 4 people can swim in the river. If those people want to swim in the river let them pay the cost. It's a private club I presume so pay for it yourselves. I'm all for keeping the river as clean as possible but that should come out of another budget and maybe a provincial one at that, like environment.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  65. #165

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    It's $2/year. Does it really matter whether it comes on your utility bill, property taxes or income taxes?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  66. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    It's $2/year. Does it really matter whether it comes on your utility bill, property taxes or income taxes?
    With this kind of thinking you should work for Epcor. Fit right in. Its always 2bucks here or there. Death in the form of a bill with thousands of bureaucratic paper cuts.

    Not too curiously Epcor bills have increased more than any other utility bill. Always inventing new levies and charges for the same or worse service.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  67. #167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I guess this 'faux beach' will be a giant litter box for three months for the feral cats roaming around the river valley area. How many actual days of use will the public get out of it. It's no good on windy days as sand in sandwiches is awful. The C of E should equip their existing parks with more amenities rather than spend on trying to recreate St. Tropez North in Edmonton.
    I agree. This whole idea gives new meaning to the word "tacky". It's like that indoor ski hill in Dubai, so people there can make-believe they have something close to the experience of yodeling from the Matterhorn.
    Well at least the ski hill in Dubai is enclosed and not open to the elements. The outdoor 'faux beach' though is another thing. Open to the elements and all kinds of pollutants. Then if any amount of people use it (apart from the feral cats) it will be trashed in no time. What are they going to put the sand on top of?. Concrete, soil, grass?. Is it going to wash away when it rains, blow away when it's windy, get filthy when it snows.
    Thing is Edmonton tries to be all things to all people. Somebody should tell the mob at City Hall to get their heads out of the sand and that were not the beaches of Cheyanne. Lawd knows they waste enough of the taxpayers money on pie in the sky crapanakki and this is just another one of those ideas that screams 'trying to hard' to be something we are not, which is a 'beach destination kinda town'.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  68. #168

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    With this kind of thinking you should work for Epcor. Fit right in. Its always 2bucks here or there. Death in the form of a bill with thousands of bureaucratic paper cuts.

    Not too curiously Epcor bills have increased more than any other utility bill. Always inventing new levies and charges for the same or worse service.
    EPCOR Water has operated on a performance-based-rate structure for years. If & only if they manage to meet or exceed the performance targets set out by the CoE can they raise their rates to match the rate of inflation.

    The managing of the watershed has only really become EPCOR's purview with the incorporation of the drainage system into their operations, which makes them responsible for the entirety of the municipal water cycle.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  69. #169

    Default

    There is a lot about water quality that is beyond human or EPCORS control. If EPCOR feels it's responsible for the entire municipal water cycle it should not be policing itself. That job should be done by another party.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  70. #170

    Default

    It's not all-EPCOR. It's an EPCOR-led initiative supported by Alberta Environment.

    River enthusiasts want to see more perfect swimming days on Edmonton’s North Saskatchewan River and hope a new multimillion-dollar river monitoring program might help.
    It’s being funded by a 10- to 15-cent monthly environment charge on residential water bills to create a $1-million annual fund and is supported by staff time, equipment and other in-kind support from Alberta Environment worth up to $2 million.
    City residents pony up ~$1M/year & get up to $3M in environmental efforts meant to keep our river clean, but evidently $3 for every $1 we put in is just not worth it.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  71. #171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^Its not at all so simple Alex.

    1)You can't build a big pier on the NS and have it last. This has been tried before. Ice Flows will basically destruct any such floating structure.

    2)Any such pier in anycase would have to withstand water levels that can fluctuate as much as several meters and in a short period of time.

    3) If you build a solid concrete/wood pier on solid ground you have to build it high enough to withstand high water mark. Which means the pier will be set several meters above what would usually be the water level. Meaning the first thing people would complain about is how high the pier is from the river.

    4)What happens when the mooring structure of the pier that you build is under water. For instance LMP walkway sat under water for a long period of time one summer and was thought to be placed above likely high water marks. I wonder what engineering assessments on that expensive structure have taken place since it sat under water for prolonged times. I can guarantee you that Concrete and rebar is not designed to be under water in such uses.

    5)Cost. Lets spend gobs more money for some reason like the COE always wants to. Hardly anybody uses the current expensive walkway at LMP. Lets build more there that few will use.

    6)The picture above has several towers in the background meaning its a high density development and I wonder if the beach area was tied in with that development and at least partially funded through that development as a buyer perk ala Summerside. Just wondering.


    This is how it is done.

    Source: http://www.goingplaces.nz/2016/11/hiroshima/

    This setup will never get damaged by ice floes, it also guarantees access to the river no matter how high the water level is.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  72. #172

    Default

    ^Why throw up pics like this when it will definitely not be what Edmonton's faux beach will be remotely like. Talk about clouding the waters with fancy ideas. Does anyone actually have any pics of what this faux beach is supposed to look like less the cat poo and other debris strewn of it of course.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  73. #173

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    I couldn't find any photos of feral cats along the north saskatchewan river. Are you searching for a problem? Not everyone wants to swim in the river, but trying to prevent others from doing so is not cool.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  74. #174

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    I was about to post an image from India where people are washing themselves in the Ganges, a river that has an untold number of dead bodies and excrement floating down it, but I knew it would gross some of you out. There was a good example of steps going down to the river though, and it does illustrate how clean the North Saskatchewan River really is.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  75. #175

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    I couldn't find any photos of feral cats along the north saskatchewan river. Are you searching for a problem? Not everyone wants to swim in the river, but trying to prevent others from doing so is not cool.
    Actually trying to encourage people to swim in the NS is not only uncool, its downright dangerous.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  76. #176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    I was about to post an image from India where people are washing themselves in the Ganges, a river that has an untold number of dead bodies and excrement floating down it, but I knew it would gross some of you out. There was a good example of steps going down to the river though, and it does illustrate how clean the North Saskatchewan River really is.
    Yes, like it's a real good idea to swim in a river when dead bodies are constantly floating by along side whatever other human bodily functions are present. Just because they do it does not make it right. The Ganges is supposed to be sacred to Hindus but that's a whole different stories. Any who here is an article about the feral cats in Edmonton (many of them in the river valley). It's an older article but I don't think the cats have gone away.

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/...f-5028ec4c06c6

    The effort is a first for Edmonton, and even estimating the number of feral cats is difficult. The estimate of 44,000 to 65,000 stray cats is based on studies done by national rescue groups which have found a city’s wild cat population is typically equal to 67 to 100 per cent of the pet cat population.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  77. #177

  78. #178

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    I am not responsible for the choices other people make. If some idiat decides to swim a flooded river, that is their choice, they are responsible for their actions. I am vehemently oppose the formation of a nanny state.

    We breathe our own garbage, eat it, and live in it. It would be foolish to deny that fact.

    What a bunch of pathetic first world problems being brought up here.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  79. #179

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    ^^Concrete and grass with a water element. It looks pretty good actually.
    Last edited by Gemini; 22-08-2017 at 01:27 PM.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    I am not responsible for the choices other people make. If some idiat decides to swim a flooded river, that is their choice, they are responsible for their actions. I am vehemently oppose the formation of a nanny state.

    We breathe our own garbage, eat it, and live in it. It would be foolish to deny that fact.

    What a bunch of pathetic first world problems being brought up here.
    Trouble is, when said idiat makes a stupid choice he then endangers other folk who have to risk their necks in efforts to save him. Unless of course you're happy to see his carcass float on its merry way.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

  81. #181

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^^Concrete and grass with a water element. It looks pretty good actually.
    I was there earlier today when I found that older photo for posting above. So a Tuesday, it was even busier than in that photo. Fake, tacky, geographically wrong or whatever one wants to call it, a whole lot of people where there having fun using it. Of course, the purists would never allow themselves to be seen at such a place, preferring to instead travel to some distant and/or foreign 'real' canyon to experience the real thing. Poorer people be damned.
    Last edited by KC; 22-08-2017 at 03:39 PM.

  82. #182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    I couldn't find any photos of feral cats along the north saskatchewan river. Are you searching for a problem? Not everyone wants to swim in the river, but trying to prevent others from doing so is not cool.
    Actually trying to encourage people to swim in the NS is not only uncool, its downright dangerous.
    It depends where they choose to swim. Same as any pool with a shallow or deep end, or a hot tub where people can stay too long and overheat.

    New charge on your water bill to help study North Saskatchewan River | Edmonton Journal

    ...The club used to swim at Hubbles Lake west of the city, but it’s a long drive and club members got swimmers’ itch from snails in the lake.


    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...ver-headwaters

    BC info:

    Swimmer's Itch | HealthLinkBC

    Where are these parasites found?

    These parasites can be found in many lakes, ponds, and coastal waters in British Columbia usually in the warm summer months. The tiny larvae are more likely to be found floating near the surface and edges of lakes and other bodies of water.


    "How can I avoid swimmer's itch?

    There is no sure way to avoid swimmer’s itch entirely, unless you avoid lakes, ponds, or beaches. However, there are certain precautions you can take:

    Speak with other visitors to the area, local health officials, or parks representatives about the water condition before getting in any lake, pond or beach.
    Check for warning signs at public beaches, lakes and picnic areas that state that swimmer’s itch may be present. Not all beaches have signage for swimmer’s itch. If you are unsure about the water, avoid areas with lots of weed growth. There may be more snails and larvae around plants.
    Use a pier or dock to enter the water may help reduce your risk of exposure, as there tend to be more larvae near the shore. Make sure these structures are approved for swimming and do not dive into unknown waters. See HealthLinkBC File #39 Safety Tips for Swimmers or contact the Lifesaving Society at www.lifesaving.bc.ca for more information on swimming safety and drowning prevention. ..."

    https://www.healthlinkbc.ca/healthli.../swimmers-itch
    Last edited by KC; 22-08-2017 at 04:04 PM.

  83. #183

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    ^Sent that pic to the C of E. It's a better idea than 'faux beach central'.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  84. #184

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Sent that pic to the C of E. It's a better idea than 'faux beach central'.


    You're not getting it. All these things have appeal to different groups of citizens. The teens and young adults don't go to a place like Discovery Canyon.
    Last edited by KC; 22-08-2017 at 03:55 PM.

  85. #185

    Default

    ^Do you think the C of E has/had the gumption to ask teens/young adults if they would use a 'faux beach'. Probably not. Could not organize a one man parade at the best of times. Build a faux beach then haul that ugly C of E balloon mascot out to delight some pimply 17 year olds.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  86. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Do you think the C of E has/had the gumption to ask teens/young adults if they would use a 'faux beach'. Probably not. Could not organize a one man parade at the best of times. Build a faux beach then haul that ugly C of E balloon mascot out to delight some pimply 17 year olds.
    Oh yes, the city doesn't have a clue. The nice thing about the new beach is it arose on its own. If it was left up to the city, they would talk about it for 3 years, consult no one in particular for another two years, plan it for 5 years, spend millions in the process and in the end it would satisfy or please no one.

  87. #187

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    The COE would have a beach project approved in a heartbeat if they would call it a transit oriented, shovel ready, signature project and could make it cost over $200 million and take 4 years to build.

    The winning bid will take even longer and paint over the under spec. features and screw up traffic in every direction....
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 22-08-2017 at 10:14 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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