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Thread: Jason Kenney and the UCP Performance - first year of power

  1. #801

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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Put it to a Provincial referundum: Temporary short term sales tax with provisions.
    It would never be temporary, besides, AB has a spending problem, the last government really enjoyed that part!
    AWhh muffin try to pay attention. We already concluded that the province has a revenue issue. Our spending is inline with most other provinces, especially when you consider Alberta has some of the highest salaries in private sector. We need to spend more because we cut costs under Ralph Klein and have been struggling ever since to build/maintain that infrastructure where we cut costs.
    How much longer are we going to blame Klein for our current woes ? If public sector salaries are reduced this will help deflate costs in the province, and the bonus is we'll pay less in transfer payments as it's based on salaries.
    well considering we still are in a massive infrastructure deficit that started from that time period... and only began to try fixing that when the NDP came in to power... and now we are back to neo-liberals are back in power... I'd imagine awhile longer.

    Reducing salaries isn't going to resolve an infrastructure deficit, and neglecting the deficit will only see costs on those items escalate exponentially. That's just the neo-liberal way of doing things.
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  2. #802

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    Earlier this decade, in the boom times for oilsands, oil prices were high and expected to increase for the foreseeable future. The U.S. Energy Information Administration's (EIA) 2014 Annual Energy Outlook had prices for the North American benchmark West Texas Intermediate crude increasing to over $230 US per barrel by 2040. Their most recent outlook, from earlier this year, has 2040 prices forecast to be $165 (US) per barrel. Translate that to an oilsands project like Fort Hills — a decrease in oil prices from the 2014 EIA forecast to the 2019 version would reduce expected net revenues after royalties and taxes by around $20 per barrel in today's dollars. Want some context? Reducing corporate taxes from 12 per cent to eight per cent in Alberta would increase the same project's net revenues by less than two dollars per barrel.
    So, if someone is telling you how corporate tax rate reductions will stimulate oilsands development, remind them that the effect of the change in prices we've seen is negative and roughly 10 times larger.
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ium%3Dsharebar
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    The UCP keeps saying that increasing revenues through taxation is a non-option, and yet this report expressly advocates offloading more project costs onto municipalities. How will municipalities make up that cost, if not higher property taxation?
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

  4. #804

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    User fees & service cuts.
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    And/or abandoning or deferring infrastructure projects, despite a growing population.
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    The UCP's plan has been to move towards a user pay model for a wide variety of services. What's happening now is exactly the first part of the plan.

    Parents will pay more to school their kids. Property taxes will go up as municipalities lose their provincial funding. Fees for almost every government service will be going up and funding for almost every non-essential program will be curtailed if not cancelled outright.

    Just wait until the job cuts that will start in & around October. Alberta is looking less & less attractive every day.
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  7. #807

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    They're not going to announce the big cuts until after the federal election. They want to make sure that Scheer and the Conservatives don't catch any of the backlash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Put it to a Provincial referundum: Temporary short term sales tax with provisions.
    It would never be temporary, besides, AB has a spending problem, the last government really enjoyed that part!
    AWhh muffin try to pay attention. We already concluded that the province has a revenue issue. Our spending is inline with most other provinces, especially when you consider Alberta has some of the highest salaries in private sector. We need to spend more because we cut costs under Ralph Klein and have been struggling ever since to build/maintain that infrastructure where we cut costs.
    How much longer are we going to blame Klein for our current woes ? If public sector salaries are reduced this will help deflate costs in the province, and the bonus is we'll pay less in transfer payments as it's based on salaries.
    I know, it's sad and ridiculous. Perhaps has long as the NDP are not in power..so, forever!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    from a johns hopkins university abstract paper on addictive behaviour:

    "Concerns about patients included increased risk-taking behaviors, opiate withdrawal symptoms, potential repeat overdose related to withdrawal-discomfort, decreased contact with medical providers, and stigma."

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...06460316301952

    this is not to suggest how prevalent this behaviour is or to even hint at its prevalence coming anywhere near justifying a reduction in the increasing availability of naloxone. it is simply an acknowledgement that along with the widespread benefits of naloxone availability there may well be a small subset of behavioural concerns that should be addressed, not ignored or dismissed out of hand as non-existent just because you disagree with the politics of someone noting that potential.
    Ken, let's not pretend that this is the first time Luan has said something profoundly ignorant and at odds with what experts in the matter say about the opiate crisis: https://www.thestar.com/calgary/2019...-industry.html

    There's a clear pattern forming, here.

  10. #810

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Put it to a Provincial referundum: Temporary short term sales tax with provisions.
    It would never be temporary, besides, AB has a spending problem, the last government really enjoyed that part!
    AWhh muffin try to pay attention. We already concluded that the province has a revenue issue. Our spending is inline with most other provinces, especially when you consider Alberta has some of the highest salaries in private sector. We need to spend more because we cut costs under Ralph Klein and have been struggling ever since to build/maintain that infrastructure where we cut costs.
    How much longer are we going to blame Klein for our current woes ? If public sector salaries are reduced this will help deflate costs in the province, and the bonus is we'll pay less in transfer payments as it's based on salaries.
    I know, it's sad and ridiculous. Perhaps has long as the NDP are not in power..so, forever!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    from a johns hopkins university abstract paper on addictive behaviour:

    "Concerns about patients included increased risk-taking behaviors, opiate withdrawal symptoms, potential repeat overdose related to withdrawal-discomfort, decreased contact with medical providers, and stigma."

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...06460316301952

    this is not to suggest how prevalent this behaviour is or to even hint at its prevalence coming anywhere near justifying a reduction in the increasing availability of naloxone. it is simply an acknowledgement that along with the widespread benefits of naloxone availability there may well be a small subset of behavioural concerns that should be addressed, not ignored or dismissed out of hand as non-existent just because you disagree with the politics of someone noting that potential.
    Ken, let's not pretend that this is the first time Luan has said something profoundly ignorant and at odds with what experts in the matter say about the opiate crisis: https://www.thestar.com/calgary/2019...-industry.html

    There's a clear pattern forming, here.
    how am i pretending this was the first time luan has said something profoundly ignorant and at odds with what experts in the matter say or say that it would be the last? i said neither of those things. i made no comments on his background or the skill set and background he brings to his associate portfolio (and if i was, it might be to note that from his bio he may have a stronger background than those who see red based on his party affiliation alone).

    what i did say was that this time there is actually some solid research indicating that what he said was not profoundly ignorant or at odds with what experts in the matter say and i did that without commenting on previous or developing or anticipated patterns.

    i think you need to take what i said on face value and not read any more into it than that otherwise you're indicating a willingness to ignore any supporting evidence for his statement simply because you anticipate/want him to wrong, supporting evidence notwithstanding which is not like you.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  12. #812

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    Luan has admitted his comments are based upon second-hand anecdotal information provided to him via a roundtable, not from any academic, medical or scientific sources.

    When contacted, a spokesperson for the premier's office said "a simple review" of Luan's comments show he was stating what he had heard from families during the roundtable.
    Pathetic.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...rees-1.5266782
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Luan has admitted his comments are based upon second-hand anecdotal information provided to him via a roundtable, not from any academic, medical or scientific sources.

    When contacted, a spokesperson for the premier's office said "a simple review" of Luan's comments show he was stating what he had heard from families during the roundtable.
    Pathetic.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...rees-1.5266782
    on the other hand, even a broken clock is right twice a day so even if unintentionally (or through those who communicated the same information anecdotally) this may be one of those times...
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  14. #814

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    from a johns hopkins university abstract paper on addictive behaviour:

    "Concerns about patients included increased risk-taking behaviors, opiate withdrawal symptoms, potential repeat overdose related to withdrawal-discomfort, decreased contact with medical providers, and stigma."

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...06460316301952

    this is not to suggest how prevalent this behaviour is or to even hint at its prevalence coming anywhere near justifying a reduction in the increasing availability of naloxone. it is simply an acknowledgement that along with the widespread benefits of naloxone availability there may well be a small subset of behavioural concerns that should be addressed, not ignored or dismissed out of hand as non-existent just because you disagree with the politics of someone noting that potential.
    Ken, let's not pretend that this is the first time Luan has said something profoundly ignorant and at odds with what experts in the matter say about the opiate crisis: https://www.thestar.com/calgary/2019...-industry.html

    There's a clear pattern forming, here.
    how am i pretending this was the first time luan has said something profoundly ignorant and at odds with what experts in the matter say or say that it would be the last? i said neither of those things. i made no comments on his background or the skill set and background he brings to his associate portfolio (and if i was, it might be to note that from his bio he may have a stronger background than those who see red based on his party affiliation alone).

    what i did say was that this time there is actually some solid research indicating that what he said was not profoundly ignorant or at odds with what experts in the matter say and i did that without commenting on previous or developing or anticipated patterns.

    i think you need to take what i said on face value and not read any more into it than that otherwise you're indicating a willingness to ignore any supporting evidence for his statement simply because you anticipate/want him to wrong, supporting evidence notwithstanding which is not like you.
    We’re dealing with humans with a wide range of mental capacities further impacted by mind altering and life altering substances so the issue should be the proportionality and probability of such possibilities rather than trying to label all concerned as having an identical mental state.

  15. #815

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    ^ But he's not right, at all & the paper you're attempting to cite doesn't actually back up what you're saying either.

    The paper is about perceived biases by people in the medical field, for one thing. You also left out the following context when trying to prove your point by cut & pasting out of the findings. Your original out-of-context snippet is in bold.

    Academic physicians and medical students cited three categories of barriers to naloxone prescription related to drug, provider, and patient characteristics. Concerns about naloxone itself included inability to prevent addictive behaviors, duration of action, medical risks, expiration date, and route of administration. Concerns about medical providers included lack of knowledge or experience, medical community common practices and norms, insufficient provision of third-party education, physician and clinic scheduling practices, worry about insulting patients, and fear of being viewed as enabling drug abuse. Concerns about patients included increased risk-taking behaviors, opiate withdrawal symptoms, potential repeat overdose related to withdrawal-discomfort, decreased contact with medical providers, and stigma.
    And what was the conclusion of the study?

    Minimizing barriers to naloxone provision may increase acceptability and prescription practice in the medical community. Addressing these barriers from multiple provider perspectives is critical to advance naloxone prescription as a harm reduction strategy, which has the potential to prevent opiate overdoses.
    Last edited by noodle; 04-09-2019 at 01:32 PM. Reason: Switched italics to bold cos quotes are italic already
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    from a johns hopkins university abstract paper on addictive behaviour:

    "Concerns about patients included increased risk-taking behaviors, opiate withdrawal symptoms, potential repeat overdose related to withdrawal-discomfort, decreased contact with medical providers, and stigma."

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...06460316301952

    this is not to suggest how prevalent this behaviour is or to even hint at its prevalence coming anywhere near justifying a reduction in the increasing availability of naloxone. it is simply an acknowledgement that along with the widespread benefits of naloxone availability there may well be a small subset of behavioural concerns that should be addressed, not ignored or dismissed out of hand as non-existent just because you disagree with the politics of someone noting that potential.
    Ken, let's not pretend that this is the first time Luan has said something profoundly ignorant and at odds with what experts in the matter say about the opiate crisis: https://www.thestar.com/calgary/2019...-industry.html

    There's a clear pattern forming, here.
    how am i pretending this was the first time luan has said something profoundly ignorant and at odds with what experts in the matter say or say that it would be the last? i said neither of those things. i made no comments on his background or the skill set and background he brings to his associate portfolio (and if i was, it might be to note that from his bio he may have a stronger background than those who see red based on his party affiliation alone).

    what i did say was that this time there is actually some solid research indicating that what he said was not profoundly ignorant or at odds with what experts in the matter say and i did that without commenting on previous or developing or anticipated patterns.

    i think you need to take what i said on face value and not read any more into it than that otherwise you're indicating a willingness to ignore any supporting evidence for his statement simply because you anticipate/want him to wrong, supporting evidence notwithstanding which is not like you.
    We’re dealing with humans with a wide range of mental capacities further impacted by mind altering and life altering substances so the issue should be the proportionality and probability of such possibilities rather than trying to label all concerned as having an identical mental state.
    isn't that exactly what i said???
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    The UCP's plan has been to move towards a user pay model for a wide variety of services. What's happening now is exactly the first part of the plan.

    Parents will pay more to school their kids. Property taxes will go up as municipalities lose their provincial funding. Fees for almost every government service will be going up and funding for almost every non-essential program will be curtailed if not cancelled outright.

    Just wait until the job cuts that will start in & around October. Alberta is looking less & less attractive every day.
    Edmonton will likely get hammered much harder than say rural. Not sure how calgary will fare in this
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    The UCP keeps saying that increasing revenues through taxation is a non-option, and yet this report expressly advocates offloading more project costs onto municipalities. How will municipalities make up that cost, if not higher property taxation?
    just substitute the phrase "user fees" instead of "taxation". sounds more palatable to albertans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Put it to a Provincial referundum: Temporary short term sales tax with provisions.
    It would never be temporary, besides, AB has a spending problem, the last government really enjoyed that part!
    AWhh muffin try to pay attention. We already concluded that the province has a revenue issue. Our spending is inline with most other provinces, especially when you consider Alberta has some of the highest salaries in private sector. We need to spend more because we cut costs under Ralph Klein and have been struggling ever since to build/maintain that infrastructure where we cut costs.
    How much longer are we going to blame Klein for our current woes ? If public sector salaries are reduced this will help deflate costs in the province, and the bonus is we'll pay less in transfer payments as it's based on salaries.
    yes, let's just keep cutting public salaries. then have nurses and teachers leave in droves. then when we want them back, we'll give them a 20% raise to come back.
    who do you think wins in this bright idea???
    The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
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  20. #820

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    The UCP keeps saying that increasing revenues through taxation is a non-option, and yet this report expressly advocates offloading more project costs onto municipalities. How will municipalities make up that cost, if not higher property taxation?
    just substitute the phrase "user fees" instead of "taxation". sounds more palatable to albertans.

    Yup, sales & purchases user fees. Don't pay taxes unless you want food and drink and then expect to pay 'user fees'...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  21. #821
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Put it to a Provincial referundum: Temporary short term sales tax with provisions.
    It would never be temporary, besides, AB has a spending problem, the last government really enjoyed that part!
    AWhh muffin try to pay attention. We already concluded that the province has a revenue issue. Our spending is inline with most other provinces, especially when you consider Alberta has some of the highest salaries in private sector. We need to spend more because we cut costs under Ralph Klein and have been struggling ever since to build/maintain that infrastructure where we cut costs.
    How much longer are we going to blame Klein for our current woes ? If public sector salaries are reduced this will help deflate costs in the province, and the bonus is we'll pay less in transfer payments as it's based on salaries.
    yes, let's just keep cutting public salaries. then have nurses and teachers leave in droves. then when we want them back, we'll give them a 20% raise to come back.
    who do you think wins in this bright idea???
    Every time anything is mentioned about about teachers and nurses, they are going to leave AB in droves
    NS, specifically Halifax, and Winnipeg, have it so much worse than they do here. So, regarding nurses, where are all these nurses going to flee to? Please!
    Animals are my passion.

  22. #822

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    The UCP's plan has been to move towards a user pay model for a wide variety of services. What's happening now is exactly the first part of the plan.

    Parents will pay more to school their kids. Property taxes will go up as municipalities lose their provincial funding. Fees for almost every government service will be going up and funding for almost every non-essential program will be curtailed if not cancelled outright.

    Just wait until the job cuts that will start in & around October. Alberta is looking less & less attractive every day.
    Edmonton will likely get hammered much harder than say rural. Not sure how calgary will fare in this
    I think Klein understandably had a lot of loyalty to the city he lived most of his life in and was formerly mayor of. I think the city Kenney has lived the most in was Ottawa. I don't think he will do Calgary many special favors.

  23. #823

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    https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/marketrepo...C8.jobsearch75

    Currently 773 RN jobs posted, with 470 of them in Quebec & 2 in Alberta.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  24. #824

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Put it to a Provincial referundum: Temporary short term sales tax with provisions.
    It would never be temporary, besides, AB has a spending problem, the last government really enjoyed that part!
    AWhh muffin try to pay attention. We already concluded that the province has a revenue issue. Our spending is inline with most other provinces, especially when you consider Alberta has some of the highest salaries in private sector. We need to spend more because we cut costs under Ralph Klein and have been struggling ever since to build/maintain that infrastructure where we cut costs.
    How much longer are we going to blame Klein for our current woes ? If public sector salaries are reduced this will help deflate costs in the province, and the bonus is we'll pay less in transfer payments as it's based on salaries.
    yes, let's just keep cutting public salaries. then have nurses and teachers leave in droves. then when we want them back, we'll give them a 20% raise to come back.
    who do you think wins in this bright idea???
    Every time anything is mentioned about about teachers and nurses, they are going to leave AB in droves
    NS, specifically Halifax, and Winnipeg, have it so much worse than they do here. So, regarding nurses, where are all these nurses going to flee to? Please!
    Budget cuts will lead to lay offs, so there will be no jobs for some of them here. They will have to leave. Fortunately, for nurses there are some good paying jobs in the US. Teachers will have to go elsewhere and take what they can get, probably many to BC as there is a teacher shortage in some parts of BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Put it to a Provincial referundum: Temporary short term sales tax with provisions.
    It would never be temporary, besides, AB has a spending problem, the last government really enjoyed that part!
    AWhh muffin try to pay attention. We already concluded that the province has a revenue issue. Our spending is inline with most other provinces, especially when you consider Alberta has some of the highest salaries in private sector. We need to spend more because we cut costs under Ralph Klein and have been struggling ever since to build/maintain that infrastructure where we cut costs.
    How much longer are we going to blame Klein for our current woes ? If public sector salaries are reduced this will help deflate costs in the province, and the bonus is we'll pay less in transfer payments as it's based on salaries.
    yes, let's just keep cutting public salaries. then have nurses and teachers leave in droves. then when we want them back, we'll give them a 20% raise to come back.
    who do you think wins in this bright idea???
    Every time anything is mentioned about about teachers and nurses, they are going to leave AB in droves
    NS, specifically Halifax, and Winnipeg, have it so much worse than they do here. So, regarding nurses, where are all these nurses going to flee to? Please!
    Budget cuts will lead to lay offs, so there will be no jobs for some of them here. They will have to leave. Fortunately, for nurses there are some good paying jobs in the US. Teachers will have to go elsewhere and take what they can get, probably many to BC as there is a teacher shortage in some parts of BC.
    The US, where Trump is, god dont let Montreal PRT or KKK hear you say that If more clinics open they will have work there..
    There is a teacher storage in parts of BC , because they cant afford to live there..rent is much much higher than here
    Animals are my passion.

  26. #826

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Put it to a Provincial referundum: Temporary short term sales tax with provisions.
    It would never be temporary, besides, AB has a spending problem, the last government really enjoyed that part!
    AWhh muffin try to pay attention. We already concluded that the province has a revenue issue. Our spending is inline with most other provinces, especially when you consider Alberta has some of the highest salaries in private sector. We need to spend more because we cut costs under Ralph Klein and have been struggling ever since to build/maintain that infrastructure where we cut costs.
    How much longer are we going to blame Klein for our current woes ? If public sector salaries are reduced this will help deflate costs in the province, and the bonus is we'll pay less in transfer payments as it's based on salaries.
    yes, let's just keep cutting public salaries. then have nurses and teachers leave in droves. then when we want them back, we'll give them a 20% raise to come back.
    who do you think wins in this bright idea???
    Some cuts yes, see my original post #787.
    Do you really think teachers and nurses will leave in droves ? For all the sabre rattling, stories of doom and gloom, morale in the public service I have yet to hear of people fleeing the province in droves. From my experience, I know 2 teachers, who despite the years of zero percent pay raises - they have not left the province ( they still enjoy their 2 months off in the summer and vacations to Disney). I know several people at AHS ( management ), who again despite the years of frozen pay - still have not left.
    A sliding scale of small wage cuts wont cause people to flee the province.

  27. #827
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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Put it to a Provincial referundum: Temporary short term sales tax with provisions.
    It would never be temporary, besides, AB has a spending problem, the last government really enjoyed that part!
    AWhh muffin try to pay attention. We already concluded that the province has a revenue issue. Our spending is inline with most other provinces, especially when you consider Alberta has some of the highest salaries in private sector. We need to spend more because we cut costs under Ralph Klein and have been struggling ever since to build/maintain that infrastructure where we cut costs.
    How much longer are we going to blame Klein for our current woes ? If public sector salaries are reduced this will help deflate costs in the province, and the bonus is we'll pay less in transfer payments as it's based on salaries.
    yes, let's just keep cutting public salaries. then have nurses and teachers leave in droves. then when we want them back, we'll give them a 20% raise to come back.
    who do you think wins in this bright idea???
    Some cuts yes, see my original post #787.
    Do you really think teachers and nurses will leave in droves ? For all the sabre rattling, stories of doom and gloom, morale in the public service I have yet to hear of people fleeing the province in droves. From my experience, I know 2 teachers, who despite the years of zero percent pay raises - they have not left the province ( they still enjoy their 2 months off in the summer and vacations to Disney). I know several people at AHS ( management ), who again despite the years of frozen pay - still have not left.
    A sliding scale of small wage cuts wont cause people to flee the province.
    Very little if any money will be saved by cutting wages of public sector. basically a useless fight that might (or might not) end up in courts costing taxpayers even more money than expected to save from cuts.

    Me thinks that people like you want public sector wage rollbacks just for spite and pettiness. the fact that you claim two teachers spend their summer months in disney, and trying to extrapolate this to assume all public sector workers hanging around disney is a masterstroke of yours. Well played nice mudslinging
    The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
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  28. #828

    Default

    I wonder if proud Catholic Jason Kenney has ever actually read his bible?

    “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”


    The Eighth Commandment condemns lying. Because God is regarded as the author of all truth, the Church believes that humans are obligated to honor the truth. The most obvious way to fulfill this commandment is not to lie — intentionally deceive another by speaking a falsehood. So a good Catholic is who you want to buy a used car from.
    https://www.dummies.com/religion/chr...-commandments/

  29. #829
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    Yeah, Top_Dawg has to go with H.L. on this one.

    Public sector and MUSH sector union workers in Alberta are the world's biggest ********** and pull down very handsome salaries, benefits, and pensions for the precious sweet dick they do.

    A good cull and rollback is way overdue.

    It's just incredible for Top_Dawg to think that back when King Ralph left office there was a budget surplus, no debt, and services were the best in the country.

    And now how does all the money get so squandered ?

  30. #830
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    a budget surplus, no debt, and services were the best in the country.
    Well you've got two out of three right. Services were terrible. And the provinces' infrastructure was falling apart. Coming from BC in the early 2000's was like moving to that third world country infrastructure-wise, and really it's still garbage compared to other provinces.

    Made a good living for 10 years fixing all the broken down, dilapidated buildings that the PC's left to rot though
    Over promise and under deliver. It’s the most Edmonton thing you can do.

  31. #831

    Default

    No debt except a huge infrastructure debt, improper service levels at schools and hospital, provincial highways and roadways neglected. But hey, the books were balanced, even though the infrastructure debt we created will cost us more in the long run at least the books appear balanced! Here's some ralph bucks, elect me!
    A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

  32. #832

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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Put it to a Provincial referundum: Temporary short term sales tax with provisions.
    It would never be temporary, besides, AB has a spending problem, the last government really enjoyed that part!
    AWhh muffin try to pay attention. We already concluded that the province has a revenue issue. Our spending is inline with most other provinces, especially when you consider Alberta has some of the highest salaries in private sector. We need to spend more because we cut costs under Ralph Klein and have been struggling ever since to build/maintain that infrastructure where we cut costs.
    How much longer are we going to blame Klein for our current woes ? If public sector salaries are reduced this will help deflate costs in the province, and the bonus is we'll pay less in transfer payments as it's based on salaries.
    yes, let's just keep cutting public salaries. then have nurses and teachers leave in droves. then when we want them back, we'll give them a 20% raise to come back.
    who do you think wins in this bright idea???
    Some cuts yes, see my original post #787.
    Do you really think teachers and nurses will leave in droves ? For all the sabre rattling, stories of doom and gloom, morale in the public service I have yet to hear of people fleeing the province in droves. From my experience, I know 2 teachers, who despite the years of zero percent pay raises - they have not left the province ( they still enjoy their 2 months off in the summer and vacations to Disney). I know several people at AHS ( management ), who again despite the years of frozen pay - still have not left.
    A sliding scale of small wage cuts wont cause people to flee the province.
    Doctors teachers, nurses, and many other professions that worked in public sector all left in droves back in the 90s because of all the cuts. We had quite the brain drain back then.

    It's odd that you support cutting public sector wages while approving tax cuts to large corporations in the tunes of 4.5 Billion dollars. That right there could solve most of our revenue issue.

    and again... We don't have a spending issue in this province, we have a revenue issue, and a lot of that has come from the mismanagement of money including our heritage fund from the same party that's now back in power under a new name...
    At least the NDP were trying to correct issues, diversify our economy, build infrastructure and keep the oil moving out of this province. The UCPs all seem to be just giving tax breaks to the rich, and fcking over everyone else.
    A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

  33. #833
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Yeah, Top_Dawg has to go with H.L. on this one.

    Public sector and MUSH sector union workers in Alberta are the world's biggest ********** and pull down very handsome salaries, benefits, and pensions for the precious sweet dick they do.

    A good cull and rollback is way overdue.

    It's just incredible for Top_Dawg to think that back when King Ralph left office there was a budget surplus, no debt, and services were the best in the country.

    And now how does all the money get so squandered ?
    Thanks TD
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  34. #834

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    and again... We don't have a spending issue in this province, we have a revenue issue, and a lot of that has come from the mismanagement of money including our heritage fund from the same party that's now back in power under a new name...
    At least the NDP were trying to correct issues, diversify our economy, build infrastructure and keep the oil moving out of this province. The UCPs all seem to be just giving tax breaks to the rich, and fcking over everyone else.
    It is also a priority issue. No matter during a boom or a bust, Alberta has tons of money for capital projects but NO money for maintaining infrastructure. In fact it will tear down existing assets and fail to build replacements. The Governor General's residence is but one example. The Calgary General Hospital is another.

    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 04-09-2019 at 05:01 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  35. #835

    Default

    It's all Notley's fault!

    World’s Top Oil Trader Sees Oil Prices Weakening This Year

    Vitol, the world’s biggest independent oil trader, expects oil prices to weaken in the fourth quarter this year, although prices are unlikely to be below $50 a barrel for a sustained period of time, Vitol’s chief executive officer Russell Hardy told Reuters on Thursday.


    “I expect a softer price in Q4 but it is unlikely to be sustained below $50 a barrel because that means $45 for shale, which would result in capex being cut,” the manager noted.

    https://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Pric...This-Year.html

  36. #836
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    Totally normal and non-petty for Jason Kenney to remove the word "Public" from "Public Schools": https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/striking-public-from-school-divisions-legal-names-riles-school-trustees
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

  37. #837

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Totally normal and non-petty for Jason Kenney to remove the word "Public" from "Public Schools": https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/striking-public-from-school-divisions-legal-names-riles-school-trustees
    Embracing diversity and multiculturalism and rejecting centralization, top-down command and control and the melting pot ideology?
    Last edited by KC; 06-09-2019 at 06:56 AM.

  38. #838

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    It's all Notley's fault!

    World’s Top Oil Trader Sees Oil Prices Weakening This Year

    Vitol, the world’s biggest independent oil trader, expects oil prices to weaken in the fourth quarter this year, although prices are unlikely to be below $50 a barrel for a sustained period of time, Vitol’s chief executive officer Russell Hardy told Reuters on Thursday.


    “I expect a softer price in Q4 but it is unlikely to be sustained below $50 a barrel because that means $45 for shale, which would result in capex being cut,” the manager noted.

    https://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Pric...This-Year.html
    OMG!!! Those diabolical NDPs spread their evil socialism everywhere and now everyone pays one socialized global price for oil!!!!


    Funny how all ideologies (socialism, capitalism, nazism, authoritarianism...) treat all their followers or subjects like just plain generic commodities - except actual capitalism which fights any attempted commodification tooth and nail through product differentiation (humans and production alike).
    Last edited by KC; 06-09-2019 at 07:04 AM.

  39. #839

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Totally normal and non-petty for Jason Kenney to remove the word "Public" from "Public Schools": https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/striking-public-from-school-divisions-legal-names-riles-school-trustees
    Rewriting history, one marker at a time. Keep those Sharpies away from Kenney.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  40. #840

    Default

    Actually Kenney thinks the word is Pubic and wanted sex education out of the Pubic School System. Kenney believes that students can get all the sex education they need from the Old Testament.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  41. #841

    Default

    Because it's totally unbelievable that a party that would cheat in their own leadership vote and run a kamikaze candidate would stoop so low as to spread false information.

    Alberta election plagued by 'inauthentic activity,' disinformation, says report
    Spike in inauthentic accounts mainly driven by 'supporters of the United Conservative Party (UCP).'

    A government of Canada team says it identified a number of "inauthentic" social media accounts and cases of disinformation in the run-up to the Alberta election — and is warning that similar tactics could be used this fall during the federal campaign.


    In new report dropped today, the Rapid Response Mechanism (RRM) team, housed at Global Affairs Canada, says it identified accounts that demonstrated coordinated "inauthentic behaviour" during the April provincial election


    Government officials speaking on background told CBC News there is nothing to suggest the accounts swayed the result of the election, which saw United Conservative Party Leader Jason Kenney elected premier.


    The report said the suspicious accounts appear to be mainly domestic, not foreign, as the community was mainly driven by "supporters of the United Conservative Party (UCP)."


    RRM said a number of the inauthentic accounts commenting on the election supported the People's Party of Canada, which is federal.


    The government officials took pains to point out that that there is nothing to suggest the parties themselves directed the accounts.


    The RRM team also identified accounts tied to lobbying groups that were spreading disinformation online in the run-up to the Alberta election. Officials would not say which groups were involved.


    The team also found accounts associated with "known national far-right and hate group actors" spreading disinformation on social media leading up to the Alberta election.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/alb...airs-1.5273349

  42. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Totally normal and non-petty for Jason Kenney to remove the word "Public" from "Public Schools": https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/striking-public-from-school-divisions-legal-names-riles-school-trustees
    there is no "public" in the name of bc's boards (i.e. it is the Vancouver school board). there is also no parallel separate or catholic school system in bc either.

    i believe that's the same for the other six provinces without parallel systems. if this is the first step towards that, i could get wholeheartedly behind it!

    on the other hand, even in ontario which is one of the other two provinces
    that still has separate catholic schools, there is no "public" in the name of the toronto district school board either. saskatchewan - which is the third province that still has two systems - still retains public in their board names.

    whether it's in the board names or not, i don't think there's any confusion anywhere in the country about which boards provide free public education for their students whether with or without parallel catholic boards and schools.

    having said all that, i don't think this announcement matters a damn one way or the other, other than possibly serving a purpose similar to one of trump's tweets - absolutely meaningless but it creates an uproar and diverts attention from where attention really should be spent.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  43. #843
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    I think a lot of the smaller communities will suffer, especially when they give municipal subsidies to attract (or retain) business.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  44. #844
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    Critics blastsuggestion Alberta education funding be tied to performance

    This is kind of scary if it happens. It’s well known that poorercommunities perform worse due to things like home life/stress/working jobs/lackof support etc. This will just make things worse for them, poor performance>leadsto less funding>leads to even worse performance.Just another way to screw over the poor I guess.
    Advocatesfear an uneven playing field for students after the much-anticipated MacKinnon report onAlberta’s finances proposed some education funding should be tied toperformance.“It means kids living in the margins either throughpoverty, disability, trauma, mental health issues, are going to be left behind.Those are actually the children that public education was always supposed tohelp the most.”


    A shift to performance-based funding is also a concernfor parents like Carrie Bosinski, whose child has attention deficithyperactivity disorder.“His scores are always going to be lowerthan most children’s scores, his whole life going through school,” Bosinskisaid.“This is the type of situation where thisisn’t really a public school anymore. This sounds more like a privatizedschool.”


    In addition to this suspicious move. Sure it could be for "streamlining", but why change things when it just creates more work and costs money?

    Alberta government orders school boards to remove 'public'from names, raising fears
    "They hope it flies under the radar with the public, butit's an incredibly deliberate, strategic plan to undermine public education,which is the first step in privatization," she said. "You underminefirst, then you underfund, and then you privatize.""Charter schools don't have democratically electedboard. So again it's another way to conflate and confuse and blur the linesbetween public schools, charter schools, private schools, and we think it'svery deliberate."Silva pointsout that for a government intent on cutting red tape, this change is likely toincrease it."That's what makes usrealize that this is absolutely deliberate. This is absolutely something theyare going forward with in spite of the fact that they prefer red tapereduction, because this is going to create a lot of red tape, a lot of work.And it's going to divert funds from the classroom."

  45. #845

    Default

    Maybe invert the funding, more for poorly performing schools.

    Hey, the Oilers get first draft pick for under performing all year.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  46. #846

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Maybe invert the funding, more for poorly performing schools.

    Hey, the Oilers get first draft pick for under performing all year.
    And that's really given them the incentive to get better.

  47. #847
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    ^ ^^

    i know it was probably meant in jest (at least the comment about the oilers) but there is some merit to that.

    not the "more for poorly performing schools" per se but a recognition that all schools don't start on an equal footing.

    mcdavid would likely never have laced up skates for the oilers if he had a choice of where to play. imagine what the oilers would look like if they could only dress a team that either chose to play here or simply - for whatever reasons - couldn't play elsewhere?

    in that - other than as a result of financial constraints - the best students in the province and the best students that choose to come to the province from elsewhere can attend the college or university of their choice, those institutions that enroll the rest shouldn't be penalized for not having the best and the brightest.

    as a result, maybe they should be overcompensated for their lack of the best and the brightest to assist them in actually trying to teach those who are not? nobody's expecting portage to generate as many rhodes scholars as the u of a but there should be some analysis of why portage is not as successful as northern lakes (or there needs to more analysis of the selected criteria that were made public vs those that weren't).

    is the best answer closing portage or doubling portage's per capita funding based on the students whose lives they are expected to improve through education? it's a legitimate question in my books.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  48. #848

    Default

    https://albertainquiry.ca/

    Huh? This is something alright. Ridiculous and intimidating - not an easy balance to strike. It's the authoritarian sweet spot though.

  49. #849
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    Hmm there's a word for what that is. "Propaganda" or something like that.

  50. #850

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    ^ I'm not sure. There is a lot of interest and inquiry into foreign interference of information and ultimately opinion when it comes to our elections. Should we not inquire and understand the level of interference of opinion for other things, such as our economy?

  51. #851

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    Cribbing this from Reddit:

    Option 1 - The environmentalists are being foreign-funded, and we're spending $2.5mil to find out. After which we can do nothing, because foreign-funded action groups are not illegal. If they were, most of the action groups aligned with the Conservative government would have a hard time securing funding.
    Option 2 - We're wasting $2.5 mil (likely substantially more because they'll cook the books to hide questionable expenditures) to find out what everyone already knows - Alberta is too small a player to warrant attack funding.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  52. #852

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    Yeah, got to make sure environmentalists don't say anything bad about the foreign owned oil companies, particularly China.

  53. #853
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    ^^But it makes him and his supporters "feel good", even if it ends up being completely counterproductive. Public money well-spent!
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

  54. #854
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    There was a line in a beaverton article that was just posted that is hilariously sad/accurate.

    Meanwhile, the Premier call on his province's American/Chinese/Dutch-owned oil and gas industries to report any foreign interference from environmental groups

    https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/09/12-suspected-vegans-arrested-in-latest-anti-alberta-energy-inquiry-raid/

  55. #855

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    https://albertainquiry.ca/

    Huh? This is something alright. Ridiculous and intimidating - not an easy balance to strike. It's the authoritarian sweet spot though.
    Cross-ref. to this 2010 thread on c2e:
    (Of course the power of the internet fails again - the links are long dead. However the thread had more recent links to stories.)


    US Billboards urge no travel to Alberta

    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...vel-to-Alberta


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry N View Post
    CALGARY - A San Francisco-based environmental group has launched a billboard campaign in several U.S. cities asking Americans to rethink their travel plans to Alberta because of the oilsands.

    Read more: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...#ixzz0tgRciWJX


    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...898/story.html
    Last edited by KC; 10-09-2019 at 01:53 PM.

  56. #856

    Default

    Jason Kenney admires Putin's handling of Greenpeace. Wishes he could do the same.

    Jason Kenney: Vladimir Putin’s Jailing of Dissidents is ‘Instructive’ on How to Deal With Environmentalists

    “They know they couldn’t get away with this in Vladimir Putin’s Russia. In fact, Greenpeace did do a protest on an offshore rig in Russia and their crew was arrested and thrown in a Siberian jail for six months and funnily enough they’ve never been back — I’m not recommending that for Canada, but it’s instructive. It’s instructive … They have seen Canada’s wonderfully generous, hospitable, sometimes apologetic Canadian temperament as an invitation for aggression. But folks, that is why it is so important we send a message that Alberta and Canada is now standing up and fighting back.”

    While critics of the Kremlin regularly end up jailed or assassinated in Putin’s Russia, Kenney’s anecdote is nonetheless wildly inaccurate.


    It is true that in 2013, the Russian coast guard arrested the crew of the Arctic Sunrise after the Greenpeace vessel tried to board an offshore oil rig owned by Gazprom.


    But Kenney claimed the Greenpeace crew was sent to Siberia and never seen again. In reality, they were jailed in Saint Petersburg and released a few months later.


    The Russian government later lost a lawsuit and paid out €2.7 million in damages for illegally boarding the ship and arresting its crew, forcing Russia to acknowledge that the environmentalists did have a right to protest all along.

    https://pressprogress.ca/jason-kenne...ronmentalists/

  57. #857
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    Congrats to Manitoba, staying blue!
    Animals are my passion.

  58. #858

    Default

    ahh the above poster still thinks they are cheering on a sports team. Go team go!
    A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

  59. #859

    Default

    I just posted this on another thread: Tribalism in Politics

    “reactive devaluation”



    Tribalism in Politics | Psychology Today Canada


    “A high school valedictorian recently gave a graduation speech in which he shared an inspirational quote:

    “Don’t just get involved. Fight for your seat at the table. Better yet, fight for a seat at the head of the table.”

    The student attributed the quote to a beloved political figure. The audience cheered.


    Then he corrected himself and attributed the quote to a leader from the other political party. The cheering “quickly died” (accompanied by “some collective groaning”)
    (Novelly, 2018 ).


    What appeared to happen is called ...”





    “A 2003 study titled “Party over Policy” showed that liberal college students changed their tune about a generous welfare policy when they were told it was supported by congressional Republicans but not Democrats (Cohen, 2003).” ...


    “When it comes to ego protection, it’s easy to misperceive or reinterpret a good idea as bad.”...


    “This is part of the ad hominem fallacy—devaluing an argument not on its merits but because of perceived negative qualities of those who proposed it.”



    https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/b...sm-in-politics








    General Discussion

    Four studies demonstrated the impact of group influence on attitude change. If information about the position of their party was absent, liberal and conservative undergraduates based their attitude on the objective content of the policy and its merit in light of long-held ideological beliefs. If information about the position of their party was available, however, participants assumed that position as their own regardless of the content of the policy. The effect of group information was evident not only on attitude, but on behavior (Study 4). It was as apparent among participants who were knowledgeable about welfare as it was among participants who were not (Study 2). Important alternative explanations for the obtained results, such as effects of heuristic processing and shifts in scale perspective, were ruled out (Studies 3 and 4).

    Considerations of Underlying Process

    Attitude change did not result from mindless conformity. No evidence was found that ...


    Source:
    Party Over Policy: The Dominating Impact of Group Influence on Political Beliefs
    Geoffrey L. Cohen Yale University

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4ec...9f64e1172f.pdf
    Bolding mine

  60. #860

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Jason Kenney admires Putin's handling of Greenpeace. Wishes he could do the same.

    Jason Kenney: Vladimir Putin’s Jailing of Dissidents is ‘Instructive’ on How to Deal With Environmentalists

    “They know they couldn’t get away with this in Vladimir Putin’s Russia. In fact, Greenpeace did do a protest on an offshore rig in Russia and their crew was arrested and thrown in a Siberian jail for six months and funnily enough they’ve never been back — I’m not recommending that for Canada, but it’s instructive. It’s instructive … They have seen Canada’s wonderfully generous, hospitable, sometimes apologetic Canadian temperament as an invitation for aggression. But folks, that is why it is so important we send a message that Alberta and Canada is now standing up and fighting back.”

    While critics of the Kremlin regularly end up jailed or assassinated in Putin’s Russia, Kenney’s anecdote is nonetheless wildly inaccurate.


    It is true that in 2013, the Russian coast guard arrested the crew of the Arctic Sunrise after the Greenpeace vessel tried to board an offshore oil rig owned by Gazprom.


    But Kenney claimed the Greenpeace crew was sent to Siberia and never seen again. In reality, they were jailed in Saint Petersburg and released a few months later.


    The Russian government later lost a lawsuit and paid out €2.7 million in damages for illegally boarding the ship and arresting its crew, forcing Russia to acknowledge that the environmentalists did have a right to protest all along.

    https://pressprogress.ca/jason-kenne...ronmentalists/
    I think you totally missed his point of his message.* Filtering everything through one’s own highly biased filters tends to do that.

    So the question remaining, despite pointing out Kenney’s factual errors is whether Green Peace continues to protest in Russia. Does it?

    Though I do think Kenney (and all ideologues on the left and right) may have a yearning for the simplistic effectiveness of good old brutal authoritarianism.





    * I’ve commented on how Wikileaks seemed to obtain lots of leaks from the US but not from some brutally authoritarian countries. (I may have used China, Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia as examples).

    I’ve also posted on the story that Russia quickly shut down some anti-Russian terrorism by slaughtering the families of the suspected terrorists.



    MEMO FROM MOSCOW

    Russia Shows What Happens When Terrorists’ Families Are Targeted

    By Andrew E. Kramer
    March 29, 2016

    MOSCOW — Donald J. Trump, the leading Republican presidential candidate, was widely condemned when he called for the United States to “take out the families” of terrorists.

    His approach — even after he clarified that he was not talking about killing the relatives — was dismissed by many as immoral and unlawful. Yet, it is the very tactic that Russia has pursued for decades.

    It is the signature, though officially unacknowledged, policy behind Moscow’s counterinsurgency and counterterrorism strategies, and Russia’s actions in smashing a Muslim separatist rebellion in the Caucasus provide a laboratory for testing Mr. Trump’s ideas.

    The family ties that bind in terrorist groups came into focus last week after the police in Brussels disclosed that two of the three suicide bombers in the attacks there were brothers, Ibrahim and Khalid el-Bakraoui. All told, analysts estimate that a third of the participants in terrorist acts are related to another attacker. ...”



    ““When a person leaves to become a terrorist, he can kill hundreds of innocents,” he said. “Those are the morals we are talking about. We should understand, the relatives must fight this first. If the relative, before the fact, reported it, he is not guilty. If he did not, he is guilty.” ...”


    “ “Yes, they detained my relatives,” Magomed Khambiyev told the Kommersant newspaper after he surrendered to save their lives. “But they were guilty. Do you understand? Because they were my relatives.”

    “If I’m a bandit, then they’re bandits, too,” he explained.“

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/30/w...-families.html

    I found this, but little in the way of headlines on protests since 2013:
    Greenpeace protests whale jail in Russian capital | Life | English edition | Agencia EFE
    https://www.efe.com/efe/english/life...000263-3942213




    In other news, curious that this flew under the media radar:




    Greenpeace’s Iconic ‘Rainbow Warrior’ Ship Chopped Up On A Third-World Beach, Sold For Scrap | Watts Up With That?



    “However, the embarrassing admission from one of the world’s largest and most prominent environmental groups flew under the radar of major news outlets. Greenpeace quietly put out a press release on its international website, which few noticed.”




    “Ironically, Greenpeace’s Rainbow vessels were powered by two large diesel engines as well as a sail. Critics relentlessly pointed out the group’s hypocrisy for using oil while simultaneously campaigning against its extraction.”



    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/12/...old-for-scrap/


    Last edited by KC; 11-09-2019 at 11:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Jason Kenney admires Putin's handling of Greenpeace. Wishes he could do the same.

    Jason Kenney: Vladimir Putin’s Jailing of Dissidents is ‘Instructive’ on How to Deal With Environmentalists

    “They know they couldn’t get away with this in Vladimir Putin’s Russia. In fact, Greenpeace did do a protest on an offshore rig in Russia and their crew was arrested and thrown in a Siberian jail for six months and funnily enough they’ve never been back — I’m not recommending that for Canada, but it’s instructive. It’s instructive … They have seen Canada’s wonderfully generous, hospitable, sometimes apologetic Canadian temperament as an invitation for aggression. But folks, that is why it is so important we send a message that Alberta and Canada is now standing up and fighting back.”

    While critics of the Kremlin regularly end up jailed or assassinated in Putin’s Russia, Kenney’s anecdote is nonetheless wildly inaccurate.


    It is true that in 2013, the Russian coast guard arrested the crew of the Arctic Sunrise after the Greenpeace vessel tried to board an offshore oil rig owned by Gazprom.


    But Kenney claimed the Greenpeace crew was sent to Siberia and never seen again. In reality, they were jailed in Saint Petersburg and released a few months later.


    The Russian government later lost a lawsuit and paid out €2.7 million in damages for illegally boarding the ship and arresting its crew, forcing Russia to acknowledge that the environmentalists did have a right to protest all along.

    https://pressprogress.ca/jason-kenne...ronmentalists/
    Somehow people are going to excuse this by saying him saying it's' "instructive" doesn't mean he's saying to lock up those who disagree with you. But what instructions could he possible get from this other than:

    1: See protesters who disagree with you
    2: Arrest them
    3: Make sure they actually disappear so that they can't sue and win. Jail in Siberia for 6 months clearly wasn't enough.

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    Amnesty talks about Human rights? ROTFL.
    What about Venezuela, Dubai, etc etc
    What a bunch of idiots.
    We don't need foreign ( Dubai) money stopping our oil production, shame on anyone living in AB and thinks this is okay.?
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Amnesty talks about Human rights? ROTFL.
    What about Venezuela, Dubai, etc etc
    What a bunch of idiots.
    What about them? You're aware that Amnesty International is not at all silent about human rights abuses in those countries, right?

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...ort-venezuela/
    https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...arab-emirates/
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  64. #864

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    But we need money from China? That's OK with you?

    Here's what Amnesty has to say about Dubai, which is part of the UAE

    Space for civil society remained nearly non-existent in the United Arab Emirates (UAE), with the country’s most wellknown human rights activist behind bars and high levels of fear dissuading victims of human rights violations and dissidents from speaking out. Arbitrary detention of foreign nationals was frequently reported. Women continued to face discrimination in law and in practice. The authorities introduced several labour reforms likely to be of benefit to migrant workers, but other policies left them vulnerable to exploitation. The authorities continued to deny nationality to thousands of individuals born within the UAE’s borders, effectively rendering them stateless. Some detainees were held incommunicado and in undisclosed locations for weeks or months. Courts handed down death sentences; no executions were reported.

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...arab-emirates/
    And Venezuaela

    Venezuela remained in a state of emergency, repeatedly extended since January 2016. A National Constituent Assembly was elected without the participation of the opposition. The Attorney General was dismissed under irregular circumstances. Security forces continued to use excessive and undue force to disperse protests. Hundreds of people were arbitrarily detained. There were many reports of torture and other ill-treatment, including sexual violence against demonstrators. The judicial system continued to be used to silence dissidents, including using military jurisdiction to prosecute civilians. Human rights defenders were harassed, intimidated and subject to raids. Conditions of detention were extremely harsh. The food and health crises continued to worsen, especially affecting children, people with chronic illness and pregnant women. The number of Venezuelans seeking asylum in other countries increased.

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...cas/venezuela/
    And China

    The government continued to draft and enact new laws under the guise of “national security” that presented serious threats to human rights. Nobel Peace Prize laureate Liu Xiaobo died in custody. Activists and human rights defenders were detained, prosecuted and sentenced on the basis of vague and overbroad charges such as “subverting state power” and “picking quarrels and provoking trouble”. Police detained human rights defenders outside formal detention facilities, sometimes incommunicado, for long periods, which posed additional risk of torture and other ill-treatment to the detainees. Controls on the internet were strengthened. Repression of religious activities outside state-sanctioned churches increased. Repression conducted under “anti-separatism” or “counter-terrorism” campaigns remained particularly severe in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region and Tibetan-populated areas. Freedom of expression in Hong Kong came under attack as the government used vague and overbroad charges to prosecute pro-democracy activists.


    https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...pacific/china/
    I'm sure that they all express outrage over Amnesty International as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Jason Kenney admires Putin's handling of Greenpeace. Wishes he could do the same.

    Jason Kenney: Vladimir Putin’s Jailing of Dissidents is ‘Instructive’ on How to Deal With Environmentalists

    “They know they couldn’t get away with this in Vladimir Putin’s Russia. In fact, Greenpeace did do a protest on an offshore rig in Russia and their crew was arrested and thrown in a Siberian jail for six months and funnily enough they’ve never been back — I’m not recommending that for Canada, but it’s instructive. It’s instructive … They have seen Canada’s wonderfully generous, hospitable, sometimes apologetic Canadian temperament as an invitation for aggression. But folks, that is why it is so important we send a message that Alberta and Canada is now standing up and fighting back.”

    While critics of the Kremlin regularly end up jailed or assassinated in Putin’s Russia, Kenney’s anecdote is nonetheless wildly inaccurate.


    It is true that in 2013, the Russian coast guard arrested the crew of the Arctic Sunrise after the Greenpeace vessel tried to board an offshore oil rig owned by Gazprom.


    But Kenney claimed the Greenpeace crew was sent to Siberia and never seen again. In reality, they were jailed in Saint Petersburg and released a few months later.


    The Russian government later lost a lawsuit and paid out €2.7 million in damages for illegally boarding the ship and arresting its crew, forcing Russia to acknowledge that the environmentalists did have a right to protest all along.

    https://pressprogress.ca/jason-kenne...ronmentalists/
    Somehow people are going to excuse this by saying him saying it's' "instructive" doesn't mean he's saying to lock up those who disagree with you. But what instructions could he possible get from this other than:

    1: See protesters who disagree with you
    2: Arrest them
    3: Make sure they actually disappear so that they can't sue and win. Jail in Siberia for 6 months clearly wasn't enough.
    what instructions could he possibly get from this?

    i suppose it depends on who he thinks should be instructed from all this but i don't think he meant russia's behavior should be instructive on how our government(s) should respond to protesters as much as the behavior of protestors should be instructive on where and how they protest and where and how they don't.

    i think he meant it is instructive to know/consider why there are more protesters here than in most other jurisdictions...

    i'm pretty sure there's a reason why tzepora berman boycotted logging in clayoquot sound in the 90's and not clearcutting in the amazon and why she protests in vancouver and fort mcmurray today and not riyadh or caracas. to fair to tzepora, it's a damn good reason. furthermore, that's not to question her commitment or even the long-term worthiness of her cause of the moment. it's simply an acknowledgment that when there is protest in vancouver or fort mcmurray, there may well be a dozen or more other places where similar protests could be made and aren't and many of them are far more egregious examples of what is being protested.

    i'm not trying to use "what aboutism" to say we can't or shouldn't do much more than we are in these areas, just to note that on a scale of 1 - 10, shutting down all of the 3's and 4's that are working to become 1's and 2's simply because it's more difficult to focus attention on the 8's and 9's who simply don't give a fig might not have us making the best choices overall choices.

    am i unintentionally giving kenney more credit than is due? quite possibly (although noting that i didn't vote ucp in the election and probably wouldn't today either). but i don't think that makes my point - or his if i have not misunderstood it - less valid.
    Last edited by kcantor; 11-09-2019 at 03:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Amnesty talks about Human rights? ROTFL.
    What about Venezuela, Dubai, etc etc
    What a bunch of idiots.
    What about them? You're aware that Amnesty International is not at all silent about human rights abuses in those countries, right?

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...ort-venezuela/
    https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...arab-emirates/
    And what have they actually done about that? SFA!

    Most people know, activist against our oil sands, are paid by foreign money. I am not okay with that, you maybe, I'm not. We lost many jobs, many, because of these protesters. You can say/post whatever you want, so that anyone agreeing that Amnesty in AB is okay, I am posting, I'm not okay..
    Last edited by H.L.; 11-09-2019 at 04:04 PM.
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  67. #867

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    the jobs that were lost in the oil in gas sector are all jobs have been lost to automation and completion of most major projects... Not what ever misinformation you are circulating now from your misinformation network. It's not like Alberta has stopped producing oil or even a substantial reduction.
    A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Most people know, activist against our oil sands, are paid by foreign money. I am not okay with that, you maybe, I'm not. We lost many jobs, many, because of these protesters. You can say/post whatever you want, so that anyone agreeing that Amnesty in AB is okay, I am posting, I'm not okay..
    So what? It is not against the law for a Canadian charity to receive funds from a foreign foundation. US foundations provide funding to charities across the Canadian political spectrum. If anything, funding is likely weighted toward the right side of the political spectrum owing to the fact that the very wealthy people who set up foundations tend to lean to the political right not left.

  69. #869
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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Most people know, activist against our oil sands, are paid by foreign money. I am not okay with that, you maybe, I'm not. We lost many jobs, many, because of these protesters. You can say/post whatever you want, so that anyone agreeing that Amnesty in AB is okay, I am posting, I'm not okay..
    So what? It is not against the law for a Canadian charity to receive funds from a foreign foundation. US foundations provide funding to charities across the Canadian political spectrum. If anything, funding is likely weighted toward the right side of the political spectrum owing to the fact that the very wealthy people who set up foundations tend to lean to the political right not left.

    Oh ffs. Yes, it's as fine as frogs fur. You obviously didn't don't loose your job. The pipeline had a bloody tent city, and the police are scared to do anything. You think foreign money doesnt know that? Thanks for your input, not! Go vote left, because that SOB is a liar and a crook.
    Animals are my passion.

  70. #870

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Jason Kenney admires Putin's handling of Greenpeace. Wishes he could do the same.

    Jason Kenney: Vladimir Putin’s Jailing of Dissidents is ‘Instructive’ on How to Deal With Environmentalists

    “They know they couldn’t get away with this in Vladimir Putin’s Russia. In fact, Greenpeace did do a protest on an offshore rig in Russia and their crew was arrested and thrown in a Siberian jail for six months and funnily enough they’ve never been back — I’m not recommending that for Canada, but it’s instructive. It’s instructive … They have seen Canada’s wonderfully generous, hospitable, sometimes apologetic Canadian temperament as an invitation for aggression. But folks, that is why it is so important we send a message that Alberta and Canada is now standing up and fighting back.”

    While critics of the Kremlin regularly end up jailed or assassinated in Putin’s Russia, Kenney’s anecdote is nonetheless wildly inaccurate.


    It is true that in 2013, the Russian coast guard arrested the crew of the Arctic Sunrise after the Greenpeace vessel tried to board an offshore oil rig owned by Gazprom.


    But Kenney claimed the Greenpeace crew was sent to Siberia and never seen again. In reality, they were jailed in Saint Petersburg and released a few months later.


    The Russian government later lost a lawsuit and paid out €2.7 million in damages for illegally boarding the ship and arresting its crew, forcing Russia to acknowledge that the environmentalists did have a right to protest all along.

    https://pressprogress.ca/jason-kenne...ronmentalists/
    Somehow people are going to excuse this by saying him saying it's' "instructive" doesn't mean he's saying to lock up those who disagree with you. But what instructions could he possible get from this other than:

    1: See protesters who disagree with you
    2: Arrest them
    3: Make sure they actually disappear so that they can't sue and win. Jail in Siberia for 6 months clearly wasn't enough.
    what instructions could he possibly get from this?

    i suppose it depends on who he thinks should be instructed from all this but i don't think he meant russia's behavior should be instructive on how our government(s) should respond to protesters as much as the behavior of protestors should be instructive on where and how they protest and where and how they don't.

    i think he meant it is instructive to know/consider why there are more protesters here than in most other jurisdictions...
    It's quite clear when he says
    I’m not recommending that for Canada, but it’s instructive. It’s instructive
    that he's the one who finds it instructive, not the protesters. He's looking with envy at Vladamir Putin and wishing he could do the same with protesters here, at least the ones he doesn't agree with. He certainly wouldn't want to lock up the yellow vest protesters for example. Seeing as the Greenpeace protesters were released and later won damages, I don't think that it's those consequences he finds instructive. Rather, it's how he could lock up the protesters and avoid those consequences.

    Maybe he's looking at something like the notwithstanding clause.

    A simple majority vote in any of Canada's 14 jurisdictions may suspend the core rights of the Charter. However, the rights to be overridden must be either a "fundamental right" guaranteed by Section 2 (such as freedom of expression, religion, and association), a "legal right" guaranteed by Sections 7–14 (such as rights to liberty and freedom from search and seizures and cruel and unusual punishment) or a Section 15 "equality right".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectio...edoms#Function
    Invoking section 33 would permit mass arrests, incarcerations, declaring environmental groups to be illegal and even torture (cruel and unusual punishment). That would avoid the consequences of Putin's actions quite nicely and would be all nice and legal.

    It wouldn't be the first time he advocated for it's use.

    In 1998, Kenney demanded then-Premier Ralph Klein invoke the notwithstanding clause because he didn’t want the courts to “enforce gay rights.”


    “If the court rules to enforce gay rights, and the Alberta government rolls over, they will clearly be implicated in the decision,” Kenney told the Alberta Report, a defunct right-wing magazine that regularly denounced “sodomy” and the “gay lifestyle.”


    “If, on the other hand, they have the courage to invoke Section 33, to use the one remedy in the Charter, they will have begun the recovery of democracy.”

    https://pressprogress.ca/jason-kenne...ts-in-alberta/

  71. #871

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    Wow. Enjoy playing dumb or what? Even persisting at dumb! That’s not an easy task for most of us.

    I guess a political agenda and finding joy in spin doctoring is motivation enough.
    Last edited by KC; 12-09-2019 at 05:31 AM.

  72. #872

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    Jason Kenney cites human rights records of Russia, Iran and Venezuela to support his drive to sell more oil and agricultural products to China.


    Yeah, his irony chip appears to be burned out.

    Premier Jason Kenney takes aim at Amnesty International Canada in letter

    “Amnesty International is deeply concerned that these initiatives undermine and violate a range of Alberta’s human rights obligations, under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and international law, including freedom of expression, freedom of association, the rights of Indigenous peoples and gender equality,” Neve wrote.


    Kenney responded in a lengthy letter of his own, pointing to human rights abuses in Russia, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela.

    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/pol...nada-in-letter


  73. #873

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    With the level of whataboutism in that letter it sounds more like it came from a C2E poster & not the Premier of Alberta.

    No wonder the nationalist ‘conservatives’ here defend him so breathlessly.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  74. #874

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    With the level of whataboutism in that letter it sounds more like it came from a C2E poster & not the Premier of Alberta.

    No wonder the nationalist ‘conservatives’ here defend him so breathlessly.
    nah, whataboutism seems to be a new normal in the western world. Two wrongs never make a right, and one is not an excuse to allow the other.
    A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

  75. #875

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    Except there’s often right, wrong and a whole lot in between.

  76. #876

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    ^Exactly, and when we are constantly being told "Canada must do more", " Canada is responsible for this and that ", "Canadians are terrible etc, etc " At some point, it IS reasonable to ask, what about those other countries/ places/ people/

  77. #877

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    A logical fallacy remains a fallacy no matter how much it's repeated.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  78. #878

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    A logical fallacy remains a fallacy no matter how much it's repeated.
    "No theory ever benefited by the application of data. Data kills theories. A theory has no better time than when it's lying there naked, pure, unsullied by facts. Let's just keep it that way for a while." Christopher Moore.

  79. #879

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Jason Kenney cites human rights records of Russia, Iran and Venezuela to support his drive to sell more oil and agricultural products to China.


    Yeah, his irony chip appears to be burned out.

    Premier Jason Kenney takes aim at Amnesty International Canada in letter

    “Amnesty International is deeply concerned that these initiatives undermine and violate a range of Alberta’s human rights obligations, under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and international law, including freedom of expression, freedom of association, the rights of Indigenous peoples and gender equality,” Neve wrote.


    Kenney responded in a lengthy letter of his own, pointing to human rights abuses in Russia, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela.

    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/pol...nada-in-letter

    So our dear leader is a bit of snit, because he received a letter from Amnesty International because they are concerned some of his recent initiatives might run roughshod over human rights. Pointing to Russia or Venezuela and saying they are worse doesn't answer their concerns.

    Yeah right, lets sell more to China, that will solve all the human right problems. I think Kenny's moral compass has lost its direction and is spinning around wildly right now.

  80. #880

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    Jason Kenney's moral compass has two poles.

    The first, his religion that teaches him that keeping gay men dying of AIDS away from their loved ones is a good, Christian thing to do.

    And the second, that money and power are enough of a reason to do something, regardless of the consequences.

  81. #881
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    i think the problem here - as with too many other things - is that the issue is extremely polarized while at the same time extremely complicated and both sides talk at the other - but not with the other - while neither side listens to the other.

    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/can...c-e952564026a2

    neve accuses kenney of being derisive and mocking in his response but in turn is cheery and mocking in return and neither of them will listen to anything more than the other's tone.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  82. #882

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    Ahh the ol' conservative "both sides" false equivalency. Was wondering who was gonna trot out that gem.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  83. #883

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    This is an uncomplicated issue. Kenney is a thin skinned authoritarian. Enjoy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Ahh the ol' conservative "both sides" false equivalency. Was wondering who was gonna trot out that gem.
    i didn't trot out any "false equivalency" on the actual issue(s) at hand. i simply commented on the behavior of two of the individuals carrying on a spat instead of working together to agree on and address the issue(s).

    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    This is an uncomplicated issue. Kenney is a thin skinned authoritarian. Enjoy.
    and no, for what it's worth, it's not uncomplicated. it's one of the most complicated issues facing us globally, not just here in alberta.

    and no, for what it's worth, on this - and not just on this - i think kenney isn't being a thin skinned authoritation, he's being a pompous dogmatic ***.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  85. #885

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    You imply that there's some way to have a rational discourse with someone advocating for (as he has for much of his life/career) the removal/denial of basic human rights & that Kenney shouldn't be mocked, derided & talked down to.

    This is not an idea that warrants serious, rational discourse. It's patently absurd & contrary to basic Canadian values. It is not complicated, it is not contentious, at least not to anyone even remotely progressive.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  86. #886

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    kcantor, I think he is both.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  87. #887

    Default

    Amnesty responds to Jason Kenney

    Amnesty International responds to Jason Kenney’s criticism of its open letter
    Alex Neve: We did not suggest that the oil and gas industry in Alberta should be shut down

    Jason Kenney has made it abundantly clear, including in a lengthy letter published in this paper, that he sharply disagrees with the concerns Amnesty International raised in our Open Letter this week. We had noted that his government’s Fight Back Strategy, energy “war room” and public inquiry into foreign funding of environmental campaigns pose threats to the freedoms of speech and association, undermine the urgent work of reconciliation with Indigenous peoples, set back efforts to address the climate crisis and expose human rights defenders to intimidation and threats.


    Premier Kenney is derisive and mocking in his response, including frequent suggestions that we have lost our moral compass and are imagining human rights concerns where there are none. He instead remembers fondly the Amnesty International from his high school days, which campaigned to free prisoners of conscience. (We still do – every single day. In fact many of today’s prisoners of conscience are jailed because of their defence of the environment and Indigenous rights.)


    But here are three grim human rights realities that Premier Kenney fails to acknowledge in his attacks on Canadian civil society.

    https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...ts-open-letter


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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    You imply that there's some way to have a rational discourse with someone advocating for (as he has for much of his life/career) the removal/denial of basic human rights & that Kenney shouldn't be mocked, derided & talked down to.

    This is not an idea that warrants serious, rational discourse. It's patently absurd & contrary to basic Canadian values. It is not complicated, it is not contentious, at least not to anyone even remotely progressive.
    if we were just discussing individuals you would find no argument from me. but we're not are we? we're discussing individuals who - for better or worse - represent organizations, one being a provincial government and the other an international ngo.

    perhaps i'm picking nits too finely but at some point there must be some respect and consideration shown to their respective offices/roles regardless of their personal animosity and whether it's deserved or not. in both cases the office/role will long outlast the individual. i'm not trying to create false equivalencies, just to point out that we can continue to happily spiral down in our discussions and discourse (not that that would ever happen in a forum like this one or in politics) or one side (and hopefully both at some point) can take the initiative of acknowledging that, behavior aside, the other side has some legitimate points and address those as some common ground instead of what we're seeing here - and elsewhere - all too often.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  89. #889

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    the other side has some legitimate points and address those as some common ground instead of what we're seeing here - and elsewhere - all too often.
    There are no legitimate points on Kenney's side insofar as human rights goes.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  90. #890

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    So how do we square a democratically elected government looking to shut down free speech and freedom of association with the objections raised by Amnesty? Is there a way that both sides can get what they want? For Amnesty to succeed in what they want, the threat to free speech and freedom of association would have to go away. But without that, Kenney's case falls apart, so he's not going to do that.

    If Amnesty raises constitutioal objections, Kenny can always use the notwithstanding clause, which would mike it legal, although not moral. Of course, many of the objections Kenney has to Iran, Venezuela and Russia are totally legal there so legality doesn't seem to be his objection. Morality? As we've seen, he's got a somewhat constrained view of morality.

  91. #891

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    So how do we square a democratically elected government looking to shut down free speech and freedom of association with the objections raised by Amnesty? Is there a way that both sides can get what they want? For Amnesty to succeed in what they want, the threat to free speech and freedom of association would have to go away. But without that, Kenney's case falls apart, so he's not going to do that.

    If Amnesty raises constitutioal objections, Kenny can always use the notwithstanding clause, which would mike it legal, although not moral. Of course, many of the objections Kenney has to Iran, Venezuela and Russia are totally legal there so legality doesn't seem to be his objection. Morality? As we've seen, he's got a somewhat constrained view of morality.
    One of the things those regimes often do, is to change the law to restrict or eliminate things they don't like, so protests become illegal or making critical comments about the government becomes illegal. It often begins with smaller restrictions to freedoms and then if they are successful or get away with those the restrictions become worse and worse. At one time a decade or two ago, both Russia and Venezuela were more democratic, now they are much less so. So Amenesty is actually onto something, when it brings up concerns about the erosion of rights and freedoms. Sadly, Mr. Kenney reacted much like those governments did when criticized by organizations like Amnesty.

  92. #892

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    The point is, every organization is under pressure (internal or external) to accomplish something - some goal. So they often go after the “low hanging fruit” first. The easy or safe win. “The easy mark”.

    The dictatorship’s get use force etc to prevent protest. The democracies therefore become by default the only place that change is attainable. The irony is that whole rights and other types of battles are taking place in the open societies no one is putting those situations in the broader perspective. This is fine until the dictatorships gain advantage because of the uneven playing field.

  93. #893

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    ^ Exactly, poster boy Canada is now the whipping boy for all sorts of abuses. In the mean time people in Iran, Saudi, North Koera, China, Russia are routinely abused. Perhaps it's time thse social justice warriors re-double their efforts on the aforementioned regimes.. just saying

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    to answer those who question "how", this is from someone i don't see often enough but who i still consider a good friend and mentor...

    Dear Premier Kenny:

    I write to strongly express my displeasure with the way this government has interfered with an outstanding member of the University of Alberta board of governors being removed. Michael Phair is an outstanding and respected positive force in this region of Canada. Your colleagues have done our University a terrible misdeed.

    Most of the teaching at Universities is done by poorly paid contract academics. And while that in itself is a huge issue for society and government to deal with, the truth is that this huge population of people all are, by necessity, committed to life in both the Private sector and the University where our supervisors expect us to make sure that our teaching reflects the highest academic ideals. This Teaching body of all of your universities are extremely accountable to BOTH industry and high academic striving and there is nobody who knows this more than Michael Phair and the board of governors that you have blundered into deciding to inflict yourself.

    I recon that you aim to try to send a message, however I wonder if the message you are going to send is one that all of our years of service and dedication are absolutely disrespected.

    To reach your economic goals you are aiming to mess with a delicate balance. To force education and especially higher education towards a private model is to say that; rather than choose the best students and invite them to consider the very breadth of their personal potential, you would like us to choose only from the wealthiest families. Further to that, it seems you assume that you know that we should rid ourselves of any courses that don’t simply supply replacement workers for old prevailing industries.

    I will point at the fact that with only 4 million people in Alberta...the last thing we want is a narrower vision of potential. The last thing this government should want is to take blame for lack of diversity for our students.

    This act of meddling in long studied plans is disrespectful and could prove to lead to an over abundance of certain training and a total lack of lateral critical thinking where our students can only imagine getting “jobs” rather than breaking into new industries and creating new companies and jobs in new industries that we now can’t even imagine.

    Please take this seriously. If the many idealists who teach for the sake of the ultimate research and student self initiative feel like our Universities are Government run, we may leave. We certainly won’t support that dynamic. And you will find a far narrower and bleaker educational system. That kind of lack of idealism only works in a region where the population has hundreds of millions and so can afford to waste a few souls. We can’t waste any in an Alberta of only 4 million.

    I certainly feel you are wasting a great opportunity to work with the diligent and excellent Michael Phair.

    Respectfully , I ask you to re-examine the premise behind these actions.

    _______ _____________ , RCA
    Last edited by kcantor; 13-09-2019 at 09:34 PM.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  95. #895

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    Excellent letter Ken but I fear it shall fall on deaf ears.

  96. #896

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    Jason Kenney and his big lie on equalization and the constitution.

    Alberta’s equalization referendum ‘political science fiction,’ experts say

    In Red Deer, during Alberta’s election campaign, Kenney also appeared to misrepresent to voters how a constitutional referendum would work.


    “We are going to make it very clear to Prime Minister Trudeau that if we do not get the completion of a coastal pipeline, we will give Albertans an opportunity on voting to remove equalization from the Canadian constitution,” he said to a wave of applause and cheers at a campaign stop last March.


    But it’s impossible for one province to dictate a rewrite of the country’s constitution, said Beland, and furthermore, a referendum wouldn’t give Kenney anything other than a piece of paper to wave at Ottawa.

    https://www.thestar.com/edmonton/201...perts-say.html

  97. #897
    Addicted to C2E
    Mr. Reality Check

    Join Date
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    Edmonton, Alberta
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    13,085

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Excellent letter Ken but I fear it shall fall on deaf ears.
    just to be clear if it wasn't in the first place, while i do agree with its content, it's not my letter.

    it's also a good example of how to respectfully bring the conversation back to the issues instead of talking at rather than to someone else regardless of their behaviour and even when its about their behaviour.

    it was written by a gentle soul looking for answers not looking for a fight.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  98. #898

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    The point is, every organization is under pressure (internal or external) to accomplish something - some goal. So they often go after the “low hanging fruit” first. The easy or safe win. “The easy mark”.

    The dictatorship’s get use force etc to prevent protest. The democracies therefore become by default the only place that change is attainable. The irony is that whole rights and other types of battles are taking place in the open societies no one is putting those situations in the broader perspective. This is fine until the dictatorships gain advantage because of the uneven playing field.
    I would look at another way and I think history has shown that democracies can be flexible and adaptable. It is true we don't always move the fastest, but we often have a good discussion and put a lot of thought into the direction we go.

    Dictatorships are sometimes better at making the trains run on time or even building a huge number of steel mills in a short period of time - that worked ok for Stalin, but not as well for Mao. However, their decisions often depend greatly on what the people at the top think or want and they are not always right. Because of the nature of their systems, people are afraid to challenge them or point that out even when it becomes quite obvious, so the train goes down the wrong track, albeit quickly to the wrong destination and the leaders are oblivious until it is too late.

  99. #899

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    Don’t worry, it’s a silent “f”:

    Ratfucking - Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratfucking

  100. #900

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    The point is, every organization is under pressure (internal or external) to accomplish something - some goal. So they often go after the “low hanging fruit” first. The easy or safe win. “The easy mark”.

    The dictatorship’s get use force etc to prevent protest. The democracies therefore become by default the only place that change is attainable. The irony is that whole rights and other types of battles are taking place in the open societies no one is putting those situations in the broader perspective. This is fine until the dictatorships gain advantage because of the uneven playing field.
    I would look at another way and I think history has shown that democracies can be flexible and adaptable. It is true we don't always move the fastest, but we often have a good discussion and put a lot of thought into the direction we go.

    Dictatorships are sometimes better at making the trains run on time or even building a huge number of steel mills in a short period of time - that worked ok for Stalin, but not as well for Mao. However, their decisions often depend greatly on what the people at the top think or want and they are not always right. Because of the nature of their systems, people are afraid to challenge them or point that out even when it becomes quite obvious, so the train goes down the wrong track, albeit quickly to the wrong destination and the leaders are oblivious until it is too late.
    I agree. So in the context of who, what and where vested interest groups go to protest, to trade, to build plants, to invoke change, to find allies, build followers, expand rights, beliefs, religions, etc. democracies are more open, flexible and accepting of change. In democracies one can find allies that invite you in and work with you to attain your goals. Populations have spectrums of individuals and group interests and vested interests and democracies mostly try to accommodate those interests. Given that people don’t often choose the path most likely to fail, they see the democratic counties as the best place to start to achieve their goals.

    So I believe Kenney’s message wasn’t, or wasn’t just, that dictatorships are efficiently blocking protests and so developing or maintaining their economies but it was that we are easy marks, easy wins, for environmental protest groups. As such Russia sells its oil and we take on many extra billions in debt because we can’t sell our oil.

    In a sense it’s: no good deed goes unpunished. Open societies have to compete against dictatorships. The good deed of human rights suffers the punishment that the human rights abusers get to take advantage of the societies honouring and working out human rights issues. Just like drug lords and other crooks becoming incredibly rich and powerful (even politically powerful) off the back of societies that won’t or can’t play hardball to bring them down.
    Last edited by KC; 15-09-2019 at 09:42 AM.

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