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Thread: The Trolley Bus Thread

  1. #1301

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    ^ ye[p PRT and that is ALL OVER our down town like tolly wires were...

    Give it up.. LRT moves WAY more people with WAY less visual impact.

    Nice try but FAIL
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    LRT is better, yes, but it serves a completely different purpose...

  3. #1303

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    I thought the purpose was to move people....

    which both do.. LRT just moves more using less overhead wire.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  4. #1304

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    Man, some people have a phobia about a wire overhead. I prefer a wire 15 feet above the ground on a trolley or LRT any day over the smell of a diesel bus.

    LRT has less wires simply because they have less track miles. We are a long way from having a 127km LRT network with hundreds of stops. Trolleys worked. They just did not bother to buy 100 handicap accessible trolleys in the late 90's or early 00's and use the network to its full capacity. Instead they crippled the system and ran it into the ground.
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    ^^ LRT is mass transit, trolley is a bus system designed as a collector like any other bus route. Both are important to our transit system in different ways.

  6. #1306

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    ^ and I might add, trolleys were a feeder system to the LRT system.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 06-01-2012 at 12:05 AM.
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  7. #1307

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    Great... and Buses do a great job of replacing the trollys and no ugly overhead visual pollution. YAY!!!!!!
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  8. #1308

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    And bus rapid transit can replace LRT without the ugly overhead visual pollution too. Whats your point? It's also more flexible to a changing city, and can run in mix modes where required without much cost pollution.

  9. #1309

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    ^ most people don't want the trollys and we are glad they are gone.. and I wish this thread was locked.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  10. #1310

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    I thought the purpose was to move people....

    which both do.. LRT just moves more using less overhead wire.
    I thought LRT was about re-inventing neighbourhoods first, then moving people...

  11. #1311

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    ^ most people don't want the trollys and we are glad they are gone.. and I wish this thread was locked.
    doom and gloom. Most people don't want trolleys? Care to prove this? The trolleys were popular. The problem with them is the city left them with 1970's technology.

  12. #1312

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    ^ most people don't want the trollys and we are glad they are gone.. and I wish this thread was locked.
    Just because a thread is open, doesn't mean you have to participate. Don't like the discussion? Move on to the next thread. Just because it doesn't fit your vision doesn't mean it wrong to discuss it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    ^ most people don't want the trollys and we are glad they are gone.. and I wish this thread was locked.
    doom and gloom. Most people don't want trolleys? Care to prove this? The trolleys were popular. The problem with them is the city left them with 1970's technology.
    Precisely correct. A friend of mine drives for ETS and echoed this on many occations. The old busses were attrocious to drive and prone to failures. Adding new busses to old technology simply made no sense.
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    I don't know many people driving vehicles over 30 years old, for comparison.

  15. #1315

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    Quote Originally Posted by azzey View Post
    I don't know many people driving vehicles over 30 years old, for comparison.
    What, you have a problem with 1981 GM (Chevette)? LOL



    At the time, I talked with one of the drivers of the leased trolley from Vancouver and he loved the New Flyer electric, more power, comfort, kneeling, and the ability to run off the grid for a considerable distance. He actually spoke in favor of the new trolleys which got him in trouble with his superiors that wanted him to tow the ETS line.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 07-01-2012 at 12:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by azzey View Post
    I don't know many people driving vehicles over 30 years old, for comparison.
    What, you have a problem with 1981 GM (Chevette)? LOL



    At the time, I talked with one of the drivers of the leased trolley from Vancouver and he loved the New Flyer electric, more power, comfort, kneeling, and the ability to run off the grid for a considerable distance. He actually spoke in favor of the new trolleys which got him in trouble with his superiors that wanted him to tow the ETS line.
    The4 problem wasn't with the buses. Rather the antiquated wire and centenaries. All were in dire need of upgrades. The buses were only part of the solution.
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  17. #1317

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    I agree, they did not replace the catenary, especially in the turns where 15 degree turns were common 30+ years ago and ETS still were using less reliable 30 degree turns. Not only did they not keep the system maintained and upgraded, they also deliberately ran the system at less than 40% of the capacity.
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    The Trolley Bus served it's purpose and if it has brand new busses serving the full capacity of the system on newly maintained or installed catenary then it probably would have been a fairly nice system to ride. But those days are gone now and it's time to move forward with something new. I think LRT is the answer for large groups of people, regular buses to feed the trains and then I would actually like to see a PRT style system to fee the buses and trains. Three levels of public transportation that if done right could change the way a large percentage of people travel around the city.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  19. #1319

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    City could pay to turn hybrid buses into diesel buses
    Pilot project in draft 2013 budget earmarks $550K to retrofit 5 of city's 177 hybrid buses


    Four years after buying more than 170 hybrid buses, each costing more than regular diesel buses, OC Transpo could be forced to turn all of them into strictly diesel buses.

    "There is no doubt that they have been underperforming. We thought we'd get a lot more fuel efficiency out of these hybrid propulsion systems than we have gotten. And at this point they're running out of warranty and we know the component maintenance parts are really high cost," said Coun. Diane Deans, chair of the transit commission.

    "I think the former management team at OC Transpo really didn't do the research," said Craig Watson, president of the local transit union. "They didn't follow up on what was happening in other properties such as Toronto. The hybrid bus has not been successful anywhere; it's particularly ineffective in Ottawa due to our route structure."

    Watson said that before the hybrid buses arrived in 2008, battery problems and other issues were being reported in Toronto.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...t-project.html

    More proof that hybrid buses were used as a fraudulent method of collusion to remove trolley buses and their efficient network to bring in a much more expensive low floor LRT that costs 50 times as much to build and does not have the network capability that our 127km system had.
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    @Edmonton PRT Concur!!!!
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    I am interested in seeing how this new technology all electric bus develops. If it can work in Winnipeg, it should be able to work here.

    http://www.newflyer.com/index/news-app/story.118

    Having quick charge stations at the end of the line will certainly eliminate cabling and allow for flexibility and expansion of routes. From what I gather, most of the rest of the bus parts would be interchangable with the rest of the bus fleet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    City could pay to turn hybrid buses into diesel buses
    Pilot project in draft 2013 budget earmarks $550K to retrofit 5 of city's 177 hybrid buses


    Four years after buying more than 170 hybrid buses, each costing more than regular diesel buses, OC Transpo could be forced to turn all of them into strictly diesel buses.

    "There is no doubt that they have been underperforming. We thought we'd get a lot more fuel efficiency out of these hybrid propulsion systems than we have gotten. And at this point they're running out of warranty and we know the component maintenance parts are really high cost," said Coun. Diane Deans, chair of the transit commission.

    "I think the former management team at OC Transpo really didn't do the research," said Craig Watson, president of the local transit union. "They didn't follow up on what was happening in other properties such as Toronto. The hybrid bus has not been successful anywhere; it's particularly ineffective in Ottawa due to our route structure."

    Watson said that before the hybrid buses arrived in 2008, battery problems and other issues were being reported in Toronto.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...t-project.html

    More proof that hybrid buses were used as a fraudulent method of collusion to remove trolley buses and their efficient network to bring in a much more expensive low floor LRT that costs 50 times as much to build and does not have the network capability that our 127km system had.
    Low floor LRT is superior to old style trolley buses.

  23. #1323

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    Nobody wanted the old style GM trolley buses back




    This is what a modern low floor, handicapped accessible trolley looks like.



    This is what a planned trolley in Leeds UK could look like



    Far less expensive per kilometer than a streetcar, more flexible, same capacity.

    Why does our Transportation Department not promote this?

    They cannot; after years of consipiring to kill the old trolley system, politically they have burnt their bridges behind themselves by tearing down the trolley lines and cannot go back to Council and suggest a more cost effective solution of modern trolley buses
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 31-10-2012 at 08:32 AM.
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  24. #1324

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    It's dead. Let it be in peace. Too late now.

    LRT is a better solution if implemented right.

  25. #1325

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    So you condone a fraud that will cost taxpayers hundreds of millions more to build a system that serves less of a geographical area?
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  26. #1326

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    No, what i'm saying is that it's gone.

    I'd prefer we build real high speed/high capacity LRT over bringing back the bus-trolley network.

    I'll agree, I was sad to see it go, didn't understand why it couldn't be upgraded, or why it was left to die for 30 years... but that time has come and gone. Let it rest. Bury the hatchet already.

  27. #1327

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    Good riddance to the trolley buses. I cannot say that enough.

    The only people who miss them are the people who never had to use them.

  28. #1328

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    So you condone a fraud that will cost taxpayers hundreds of millions more to build a system that serves less of a geographical area?
    If you believe it's fraud then you should speak with the city solicitor and the police.

  29. #1329

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    It sounds like fraud to me. If you guys aren't aware of the conspiracy to kill the streetcars nationwide in the past, then you're doomed to make the same mistakes.

  30. #1330

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    The corporations that killed streetcars (GM, Firestone, Standard Oil and MAc Truck) created a company that bought up street car networks and closed them down and replaced them with buses build by MAC and GM that ran on Firestone tires.... this was in the 30's... A Federal Grand Jury later found the above corporations guilty of Antitrust and fined them each a dollar. But they were not found guilt of collusion to shut down streetcars.. they were found guilty of only awarding the contracts that replaced the infrastructure to themselves.

    Now THAT was a conspiracy.

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  31. #1331

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Nobody wanted the old style GM trolley buses back




    This is what a modern low floor, handicapped accessible trolley looks like.



    This is what a planned trolley in Leeds UK could look like



    Far less expensive per kilometer than a streetcar, more flexible, same capacity.

    Why does our Transportation Department not promote this?

    They cannot; after years of consipiring to kill the old trolley system, politically they have burnt their bridges behind themselves by tearing down the trolley lines and cannot go back to Council and suggest a more cost effective solution of modern trolley buses
    I would support this as a form of BRT as long as the overhead infrustructre copied the picture and was not the horrible visual pollution we once had.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  32. #1332

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    ^True, the old system needed to come down anyway, it was horrible. Trolleys don't really make a ton of sense in Edmonton though compared to diesel or natural gas buses which get the same ridership and have the same capacity (unlike LRT or even streetcars which boost ridership and capacity significantly), as there is little clean electricity energy near Edmonton (no hydro, and wind a long distance away), and the lines are difficult to maintain in the cold.

    I think the city should look closer at natural gas options.
    Last edited by moahunter; 01-11-2012 at 07:41 PM.

  33. #1333

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    A single pollution source that feeds a system that is WAY more efficient than the gasoline powered combustion engine is still a net gain.

    Add to that the reduced noise pollution as well...

    And let's be honest that Leeds super bus has some real curb appeal and has enough capacity I would support it as a brt. I would not be willing to support building the required infrastructure to have it run in mixed traffic
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    I would support it as BRT as long as it would be used in conjunction with LRT.

  35. #1335

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    or a place holder as LRT.

    With the LRT build out time to the west end now being extended past 2020 i think it makes perfect sense to created dedicated lanes and build BRT.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    This is what Calgary is doing for the SE quadrant - BRT to start with; conversion to LRT at some unspecified date.

    Makes sense to me - though am not quite sure how you work the conversion: getting people used to BRT then slowing it to a crawl while you install tracks, etc.

    Probably why I'm not a project manager ...
    ... gobsmacked

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    This is what Calgary is doing for the SE quadrant - BRT to start with; conversion to LRT at some unspecified date.

    Makes sense to me - though am not quite sure how you work the conversion: getting people used to BRT then slowing it to a crawl while you install tracks, etc.

    Probably why I'm not a project manager ...
    If you use the trolly buses for the brt, you already have the overhead power (assuming they install lines capable of powering trains from the start). With a proper ROW with over/underpasses it would be easy to lay track quickly and the buses could still be run on one side while track was laid on the other. And one the first side of track was completed a train dropped on it the other side could be worked on and the buses removed completely.

  38. #1338

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    See: Ottawa. BRT on its own right of way, now being upgraded to LRT with a new downtown tunnel.

  39. #1339

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    Ottawa is a traffic NIGHTMARE.

    I have never seen so much gridlock...... On the other hand.. if you parked your car and used your feet it was an AWESOME place to walk around.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  40. #1340

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    Ottawa was pretty easy to get around by car, or transit...

    Traffic wasn't so bad, much worse in GTA or Montreal.... Traffic in Ottawa was no worse than Edmonton...

  41. #1341

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    Quote Originally Posted by GranaryMan View Post
    If you use the trolly buses for the brt, you already have the overhead power (assuming they install lines capable of powering trains from the start).
    Not sure this is the case; I know in Toronto the overhead cabling for the streetcar system was not compatible with electric trolley busses, but I don't know if this has been addressed by manufacturers and could be implemented from scratch. It would sure make sense.
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    I seem to remember asking why trolly buses required two pantographs and LRT one.

    IIRC, it was because trollys run on rubber tires, so aren't grounded - while LRT runs on steel wheels and is grounded.

    You could likely keep the poles, but would have to re-wire.
    ... gobsmacked

  43. #1343

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Ottawa is a traffic NIGHTMARE.

    I have never seen so much gridlock...... On the other hand.. if you parked your car and used your feet it was an AWESOME place to walk around.
    You really do need to get out more often. I've been in Ottawa numerous times and for lengthy stays. I've never encountered traffic anywhere that I'd call nightmareish. Ottawa isn't even a blip on the gridlock radar and neither is Edmonton.

  44. #1344

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    I get out lots thanks for your opinion. Tom Tom puts Ottawa as the tenth most congested commute just behind Toronto.. I saw the cars lined up for blocks apron blocks to cross the Ottawa river. My Frieds, who have a daily Toronto one way commute of 2 hours, commented on how bad it was. driving into Ottawa from Toronto took us from a 4 lane highway onto a tiny little street that was backed up from the freeway to our hotel. If there wasn't concern over congestion there would be no need for LRT and as medwards will point out the train is going underground and buss traffic will be drastically reduced in the dt area.

    So I respectfully consider you wrong

    Like I said once we parked our car Ottawa was an amazing city!
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 03-11-2012 at 09:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    I get out lots thanks for your opinion. Tom Tom puts Ottawa as the tenth most congested commute just behind Toronto.. I saw the cars lined up for blocks apron blocks to cross the Ottawa river. My Frieds, who have a daily Toronto one way commute of 2 hours, commented on how bad it was. driving into Ottawa from Toronto took us from a 4 lane highway onto a tiny little street that was backed up from the freeway to our hotel. If there wasn't concern over congestion there would be no need for LRT and as medwards will point out the train is going underground and buss traffic will be drastically reduced in the dt area.

    Sounds a lot like you're describing Edmonton to me.

  46. #1346

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    Doesn't edmonton have a tunnel?

    Could you imagine how busy roads would be without our current lrt (and downtown lrt tunnel)

    As someone who recently spent several months in Ottawa there traffic situation is slightly worse than ours but they don't have lrt yet, save for a very short diesel line.
    Last edited by Medwards; 03-11-2012 at 10:10 AM.

  47. #1347

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    Slightly worse traffic than Edmonton is not bad traffic compared to many other cities in the Edmonton/Ottawa size range. There's traffic and then there's congestion and then there's gridlock. Edmonton and Ottawa have traffic with occasional congestion. Neither city is difficult to get around in with a car except for certain times at certain locations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Slightly worse traffic than Edmonton is not bad traffic compared to many other cities in the Edmonton/Ottawa size range. There's traffic and then there's congestion and then there's gridlock. Edmonton and Ottawa have traffic with occasional congestion. Neither city is difficult to get around in with a car except for certain times at certain locations.
    Agreed.

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    Debating on where this article should be put, trolley does seem somewhat appropriate, I was impressed with the 90% efficiency even if its out of alignment by 6".

    It seems like this is the best of both worlds, you can get efficient electrical generation by massive plants that can be run as environmentally efficient as possible, you don't have to worry about installing maintaining catenary and huge batteries.
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    Last edited by sundance; 03-12-2012 at 11:26 AM.

  50. #1350

    Default Quebec announces green-transport plan

    MONTREAL - Quebec plans to spend more than a half-billion dollars on a green-transportation plan over the next three years.

    Premier Pauline Marois says the plan includes up to $8,000 in subsidies for the purchase of electric or hybrid vehicles; and up to $1,000 for people installing a charging unit at home.

    She says the goal is to add 12,500 electric vehicles on Quebec roads by 2017, accelerating a program introduced under the previous Charest government.

    It also calls for 5,000 public charging stations; 525 electric taxis; and 25 electric trolleys in Montreal.
    http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...413/story.html

    Madame Marois announced that her plan will dedicate 150 millions to the installation of a trolleybus line on Saint Michel Boulevard.
    Trolleybuses are not new to the city, various lines used to run in Montreal until the network was dismantled in the 1960s. A great mistake of course, but one that has to be understood at a time when oil companies and diesel bus manufacturers were doing a very effective lobby all over the world to have electric tramways and trolleybuses removed and instead have their vehicles, supposedly more flexible and faster than the electric ones, in place. In fact the disadvantages of diesel buses far exceed their alleged advantages: they are highly contaminant, diesel engines have a much shorter lifespan, and they are much noisier than trolleybuses.

    The STM had also considered the use of hybrid buses (diesel-electric) and even electric ones powered by batteries. Although that is also a possibility, the geography of Montreal may conspire against them, their engines are not powerful enough to handle the numerous hilly streets in the city, trolleybuses on the other hand can do that easily, although of course installing trolleybuses is going to be costly since substations will have to be built, as well as poles and overhead wires will have to be installed, but once they are in place the maintenance cost is lower than that of diesel vehicles.
    http://mtltimes.ca/social-life/elect...ue-initiative/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    MONTREAL - Quebec plans to spend more than a half-billion dollars on a green-transportation plan over the next three years.

    Premier Pauline Marois says the plan includes up to $8,000 in subsidies for the purchase of electric or hybrid vehicles; and up to $1,000 for people installing a charging unit at home.

    She says the goal is to add 12,500 electric vehicles on Quebec roads by 2017, accelerating a program introduced under the previous Charest government.

    It also calls for 5,000 public charging stations; 525 electric taxis; and 25 electric trolleys in Montreal.
    http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...413/story.html

    Madame Marois announced that her plan will dedicate 150 millions to the installation of a trolleybus line on Saint Michel Boulevard.
    Trolleybuses are not new to the city, various lines used to run in Montreal until the network was dismantled in the 1960s. A great mistake of course, but one that has to be understood at a time when oil companies and diesel bus manufacturers were doing a very effective lobby all over the world to have electric tramways and trolleybuses removed and instead have their vehicles, supposedly more flexible and faster than the electric ones, in place. In fact the disadvantages of diesel buses far exceed their alleged advantages: they are highly contaminant, diesel engines have a much shorter lifespan, and they are much noisier than trolleybuses.

    The STM had also considered the use of hybrid buses (diesel-electric) and even electric ones powered by batteries. Although that is also a possibility, the geography of Montreal may conspire against them, their engines are not powerful enough to handle the numerous hilly streets in the city, trolleybuses on the other hand can do that easily, although of course installing trolleybuses is going to be costly since substations will have to be built, as well as poles and overhead wires will have to be installed, but once they are in place the maintenance cost is lower than that of diesel vehicles.
    http://mtltimes.ca/social-life/elect...ue-initiative/
    Another NIMBY issue killed them here. Just like a real Via train station or downtown airport.
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    Not exactly a NIMBY issue, transportation head Bob Boutilier got rid of them in Toronto then moved here did the same thing.

  53. #1353

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    While having full knowledge that the ETS hybrid bus project would have the same result as the complete failure with the TTC a few years earlier.
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  54. #1354

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    ^ o god half a decade later and 1400+ posts and look where we are... the exact same place....

    It took less time for medwards and I to stop talking about West LRT.
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    The return of unsightly overhead trolley wires to Edmonton streets? No thanks. Let Madame Marois have her trolleys. Edmonton should stick with buses which are becoming increasingly quieter, cleaner and less polluting.

    EDP and I agree on a transit thread if I read his response above correctly. Will wonders ever cease?

  56. #1356

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    Last time I looked, LRT runs off those same ugly wires and uses that same dirty electricity. Give me a break.
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  57. #1357

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    yes, but electric wires are required for lrt, especially in the tunnel.

    Bus and PRT can run off diesel.

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    LRTs can run off of diesel too, example Ottawa's O line (no tunnels).

    To me I get the fact some of the infrastructure was old and needed replacing but if you look around 156th Street and 118th Avenue you will see fairly new streetlights which were installed to support the trolley lines, some older sections do have poles that are rusty (paint could have stopped it but Edmonton doesn't believe in keeping infrastructure painted). I thought that Boutilier did a GM in removing the trolleys and sold council on mythical savings with hybrid busses (do we have them yet?).

    I always thought they chose the highest replacement prices for new vehicles, if New Orleans and San Francisco can run public transit systems using some very old equipment like the PCC streetcars and older then I can't imagine it would take that much work to keep the existing motors running. Edmonton refitted the existing U2 LRT fleet it could have done the same with the trolleys.

  59. #1359

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Last time I looked, LRT runs off those same ugly wires and uses that same dirty electricity. Give me a break.
    The wires all over downtown and the unsightly infrastructure used to keep them up was.... well.... unsightly. They are not missed.

    I will gladly trade the wires being everywhere DT to them being down one avenue on a system that provides me a vehicle every 5 min as opposed to what we had with a bus going buy every 15-30 min.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  60. #1360

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    Then you loose the network. A single line means that you do not have service in the many areas served by the 127 km trolley line network that went from 50th st. to 156th st. and from Southgate to 118th ave.

    At least with the trolleys, you had an electric powered bus service capable of handling advanced low floor electric trolleys for the 20-25 years if and when the WLRT gets built. That would have been a much better option for the west end at least as a place holder and proving ground for the WLFLRT route with express service and stops exactly as the planned trams. Extending the lines to WEM, Lewis Estates or Callingwood & Terra Losa would have only cost an estimated $2 million/km.

    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  61. #1361

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    Enjoy the wait...


    Attention all passengers...

    The next LRT to West Edmonton Mall will be arriving in 25 years....
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  62. #1362

    Default

    Attention all passengers:
    You don't need to wait. PRT is never coming. LRT is 10-25 years away, But hey, there's this handy-dandy bus service already! WEM to UofA in 25 mins! Downtown too!

  63. #1363
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
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    7,277

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    The more things change, the more they stay the same...
    https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/11...tenary-system/

  64. #1364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Enjoy the wait...


    Attention all passengers...

    The next LRT to West Edmonton Mall will be arriving in 25 years....
    Hilarious!
    Until then west side residents will be able to enjoy easy road access to the downtown- until that is, a Metro-Maginot Line of grade level LRT crossing defences are installed.

  65. #1365

    Default

    Nealy 4 years to the day since I posted that, ZERO has happened with the WLRT plan. Basically ZERO since it was first proposed in 1964!

    Judging by the NAIT LRT fiasco and the looming Millwoods LRT snarls at Whyte/83rd St, residents in west Edmonton are better off with the status quo IMEO.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  66. #1366

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