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Thread: divided highway to the coast

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    Default divided highway to the coast

    I know this is a little out of this forum's range but Edmonton is suffering because of a key missing infrastructure link. It would sure be nice if B.C. twinned hwy 5 north of Kamloops to the Alberta border and if we finished hwy 16 to meet it. I realize it is a monumental project but so was the Coquihalla.
    A 4 lane highway to the coast would allow more trucks to utilize the lower grades of the Yellowhead Pass and would greatly improve our competetive situation.
    I was thinking the Alberta Government could provide low rate or interest free loans to B.C. to spur this on.
    Any guesses as to how receptive the Calgary provincial government would be to this idea?

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    My goodness, but this keeps coming up. ...and I will get slammed here but...

    The Yellowhead is the most underappreciated passes in Canada - until recently. One stat I hear over and over again is that it is only ~200 kms longer from Winnipeg to Vancouver using this route, but that the greatly lower grades (2 large ones on TCH16/5 vs 16 on TCH1), higher speed limits (100 km/h average vs 70 km/h average), the lower grades being way more friendly to brakes and fuel consumption, and the fact that the TCH 16/5 has faster and easier access to both Vancouver and Prince Rupert (the next big port) makes the TCH 16/5 the preferred route for many truckers.

    Not to mention that the reality of the TCH 5 being in river valleys that are so much easier to twin makes this road an ideal candidate to be done immediately.

    I know the Alberta/BC government thought of having a highway in the middle from Red Deer to Clearwater/Barierre through Saskatchewan Crossing in order to shorten this route, but I have to ash what the heck for? That would be Coquihalla-style carving whereupon TCH 16/5, well, God/nature/glaciers did the work for us.

    So, to look at this route from a Mapblast perspective, here is what I get...


    Route summary
    Start: Edmonton, Alberta
    End: Vancouver, BC

    Total distance: 1157.8 km
    Estimated time: 12 Hours, 25 Minutes

    Route summary
    Start: Calgary, Alberta
    End: Vancouver, BC

    Total distance: 972.3 km
    Estimated time: 11 Hours, 16 Minutes

    Route summary
    Start: Winnipeg, Manitoba
    End: Vancouver, BC

    Total distance: 2296 km
    Estimated time: 25 Hours, 3 Minutes (TCH1 all the way)

    Route summary
    Start: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
    End: Edmonton, Alberta

    Total distance: 1352.1 km
    Estimated time: 14 Hours, 1 Minute

    Add the trip to Vancouver (1157.8 ), and you get 2509.9 in about 26 1/2 hours for a difference of 213.9 km and about an hour and a half.

    So, the claims I hear are legitimate. I know the Edmonton to Vancouver route is a little faster than the advertised 12 1/2 hours for a car that does not stop for pee breaks, and that the advertised time for the Calgary/Vancouver route assumes faster speeds than what is possible for much of the passes (windy low speed roads combined with traffic volumes), so I'll be willing to be the times are closer to an hour difference. From personal experience, I know I "raced" a friend of mine to Abbotsford (he in Calgary, and I in Edmonton), and we arrived at Merritt at the same time. He was getting out of his car to go to the A&W when I pulled up. GPS trackers verified that we both never exceeded 10% of the posted limit. He was delayed by an average speed of 78km/h and Revelstoke delays while I had a 110 average.

    Our fuel consumption (Camaro vs Mustang) were identical for all intents and purposes (1 fuel stop each)

    So, with the added benefit of Prince Rupert, negligible time differences to Vancouver with a single lane highway, a God-carved route, low grades (the highest point is Obed outside Hinton), and easier wear and tear on vehicles, this route is a no brainer to twin.

    With some careful planning, you could further reduce the distance by slight route modifications between Clearwater and Blue River and possibly between Jasper and Valemont. That adds expense, but probably still less than the blasting of a new Highway 11 or full twinning of TCH1.

    Would the Province be onside? They really don't have to be - Highway 16 in ALBERTA is already twinned to the park gates. The rest is BC and the Feds. THEY are the issue, and with more votes in Golden, Revelstoke, and the like vs Valemont, Blue River, Avola, Clearwater, and Barierre - it seems unlikely UNLESS Prince Rupert changes their mind.
    Onward and upward

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    Default Re: divided highway to the coast

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60
    Calgary provincial government
    Would be REALLY funny if it weren't true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    I know the Alberta/BC government thought of having a highway in the middle from Red Deer to Clearwater/Barierre through Saskatchewan Crossing in order to shorten this route, but I have to ash what the heck for? That would be Coquihalla-style carving whereupon TCH 16/5, well, God/nature/glaciers did the work for us.
    I think the proposal for the Howse pass route has it following the Blaeberry river to join highway 1 about 20 km northwest of Golden. It would shorten the trip to the coast by about 100km only for central Alberta residents, but would shorten trip to the southeast interior (including the Okanagan and Shuswap) by about the same amount for anyone in or north of Red Deer.

    Regarding BC highway 5 north, I don't see anything happening to it except maybe for a few passing lanes for a long time. There is far more traffic on highway 1 and most of the meager portion of the BC highways budget that gets spent in the interior will go there. The biggest bottleneck between here and the coast isn't highway 5 anyways, it's highway 16 through Jasper.

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    I realize it is a monumental project but so was the Coquihalla.
    Don't forget that the cost for the Coquihalla is covered by the tolls we pay to use it.

    Besides the bottleneck in Jasper and the canyon route in Robson Park, another major issue with the Yellowhead is the relative lack of services and attractions between Kamloops and Valemount. Last time I drove the #5 from Kamloops, I almost ran out of gas because most of the stations in the one-horse towns closed early (I barely made it to Blue River).

    At least with the Trans-Canada #1 there are several large centres such as Golden, Revelstoke and Salmon Arm. There's Rogers Pass, the Shuswaps, a couple of smaller national parks and several tourist-y attractions along the way. And who hasn't been to the Enchanted Forest?

    Hopefully a twinned Yellowhead from Kamloops to Hinton can spur some more services and development along the route.

    BTW, does anyone know why the Yellowhead #5 isn't designated as a Trans-Canada Highway?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    Besides the bottleneck in Jasper and the canyon route in Robson Park, another major issue with the Yellowhead is the relative lack of services and attractions between Kamloops and Valemount. Last time I drove the #5 from Kamloops, I almost ran out of gas because most of the stations in the one-horse towns closed early (I barely made it to Blue River).
    I kind of like the "outback" nature of highway 5. I fill up in Hinton (heading southwest) or Kamloops (heading northeast) and drive the two lane section in one stretch.

    If anyone is heading to the Shuswap area, I drove my saturn SL1 over the logging road on the west side of Adams lake two weeks ago without any problems. Going that way, Salmon Arm is only 110 km from Barriere and all but 20 km is paved, making the highway 16/5 route a reasonable alternative to the highway 2/1 route.

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    SDM - there are 24 hour gas stations all along the route, in Barierre, Blue River, and Valemont. In an Avalanche, I can do Edmonton to Kamloops on one tank, but I fill in Jasper for good measure. I have though stopped at the many HUSKY's along the way for a late night java and a sub.

    T48 - yes, Jasper is a big bottleneck, but given the national park, I don't expect any changes there. As for the BC highway budget, yes, the bulk of their money is on 1, 3, and 97. However, with YPR, this will change. Plus, a little AB lobbying couldn't hurt.

    Oh, and for a twinned TCH 16/5, I'd pay another $10 toll.
    Onward and upward

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    SDM - there are 24 hour gas stations all along the route, in Barierre, Blue River, and Valemont. In an Avalanche, I can do Edmonton to Kamloops on one tank, but I fill in Jasper for good measure. I have though stopped at the many HUSKY's along the way for a late night java and a sub.
    True, but I figure that if the choices were Husky subs along #5 vs Timmy Hos, Smittys and Rotten Ronnies in Revelstoke and Golden, many people will choose the latter. Ditto for the choice of hotels and motels on those routes.

    And although some of us are willing to pay a $10 toll for a twinned #5, I can't help but wonder if that will only push more people down to #1, which means that more cross-country road tourists will choose to pass through Banff and Calgary instead of Jasper and Edmonton.

    The Yellowhead is supposed to be a branch of the Trans-Canada Highway and it should be treated as such. That means that the entire leg from Kamloops to Winnipeg should be twinned. The Yellowhead #5 from Kamloops needs to be a designated TCH (nobody's answered my question yet as to why it's not), and the towns along there need to grow and prosper as tourist stops instead of truck stops (Blue River is the mid-way point between Van and Edm).

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    I heard that they were planning to build a ski resort in Valemont a little over a year ago.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

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    They are. The development along 5 is just starting to take hold.

    SDM - on a road trip, all I care about is some food and some coffee. I like the Haygaard Lumbejacks...so I guess I am weird. They are not far off the Smittys crap and timmy ho's slop we like too. After all, my destination is Peachland or Vancouver, NOT Blue River or Revelsotke. Just get me to the Okanogan already!

    As for a Toll, if that were true, then the old #1 through Grande Cache would be abuzz with traffic and the Coq dead. I'll bet sooner than later a Toll appears on 1 as well - twinning that is getting uber $$$$$$$$$$$. No, the Coq is busy and people will pay for fast and maintained access.
    Onward and upward

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    SDM - on a road trip, all I care about is some food and some coffee. I like the Haygaard Lumbejacks...so I guess I am weird. They are not far off the Smittys crap and timmy ho's slop we like too. After all, my destination is Peachland or Vancouver, NOT Blue River or Revelsotke. Just get me to the Okanogan already!
    That's you, but most people in this country cannot survive without their Timmy Hos and their Rotten Ronnies and their Holiday Inns and their resorts and their hot springs and their roadside attractions.

    I guess what I've been trying to say is that the Yellowhead route between Edmonton and Kamloops is kinda boring and desolate in relative comparison to the #1 route via Banff. The Yellowhead route needs to attract more drivers and the towns along the route need to grow. Only then would a twinned #5 work.

    As for a Toll, if that were true, then the old #1 through Grande Cache would be abuzz with traffic and the Coq dead. I'll bet sooner than later a Toll appears on 1 as well - twinning that is getting uber $$$$$$$$$$$. No, the Coq is busy and people will pay for fast and maintained access.
    Grande Cache?? You mean Cache Creek, do you not?

    But here's an idea: seeing that the Coquihalla is now a Yellowhead Highway, maybe they should use the toll money to twin the Kamloops-Valemount route. After all, one would think that the tolls would have paid off the Coquihalla already.

    .

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    Hate to take this somewhere it wasn't intended to go, but am I the only one who hates the lack of food choices at gas stations on long hauls? I can eat healthy everywhere else I travel and in every-other circumstance I put myself in, except for extended travel by car. Where is our answer to these bio-diesel gas stations in California that serve decent food? (maybe we don't have enough granola crunchers to warrant this?) Sorry, just some thoughts from my last trip to the interior.

    EDIT: food is my point here, not bio-diesel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    As for a Toll, if that were true, then the old #1 through Grande Cache would be abuzz with traffic and the Coq dead. I'll bet sooner than later a Toll appears on 1 as well - twinning that is getting uber $$$$$$$$$$$. No, the Coq is busy and people will pay for fast and maintained access.
    The Fraser canyon highway is still busy though, with truckers looking to avoid the steep grades and $50 truck toll as well as tourists looking for a scenic route. Economically, it is cheaper to drive the extra 100 km unless you vehicle is a serious gas guzzler. The only cost is time. The Hope-Princeton highway is pretty busy as well, it only adds 60 km to take highways 3 and 5a from Hope to the 97c on the way from the coast to the Okanagan. The third alternative is to take the Sea to Sky highway from Cache Creek. I've gone that way a few times en route to Squamish.

    As for tolls on highway 1, it does look like there will be a toll on the Port Mann bridge after it gets upgraded, but I don't know about anywhere else. The feds put up a lot of the cash for the kickinghorse project, twinning west of Golden will be relatively easy and much of the rest is in national parks. BC's tolling policy also requires that there be a "reasonable untolled alternative".

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    The sad thing about the Yellowhead route is that it was the preferred one over the southern route for the CPR. Unlike the white-knuckle drive on Hwy.1 the drive down Hwy. 16/5 is just relaxing.

    I can see making it 4 lanes through Jasper and B.C., as the only thing that'll slow things down is the wildlife around Jasper townsite.

    I think the reason that it won't be looked at for a long time by both the B.C. and federal governments is that both look at Central and Northern B.C. and Alberta as being the piggy banks for the Calgary and Lower Mainland areas. And, who does anything to improve their piggy banks, anyways.

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    having driven this just this past weekend....i completely agree......
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    Quote Originally Posted by onishenko
    Hate to take this somewhere it wasn't intended to go, but am I the only one who hates the lack of food choices at gas stations on long hauls? I can eat healthy everywhere else I travel and in every-other circumstance I put myself in, except for extended travel by car. Where is our answer to these bio-diesel gas stations in California that serve decent food? (maybe we don't have enough granola crunchers to warrant this?) Sorry, just some thoughts from my last trip to the interior.

    EDIT: food is my point here, not bio-diesel.
    BC's "granola crunchers" are strongly concentrated in the GVRD and on southern Vancouver Island, with a smattering in the west Kootenays. The rest of the interior is as redneck as rural Alberta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48
    The rest of the interior is as redneck as rural Alberta.
    moreso...
    Onward and upward

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    Grande Cache?? You mean Cache Creek, do you not?

    But here's an idea: seeing that the Coquihalla is now a Yellowhead Highway, maybe they should use the toll money to twin the Kamloops-Valemount route. After all, one would think that the tolls would have paid off the Coquihalla already.

    .
    Yes, cache creek....

    I would agree on using the toll money for expansion of both highways, unless they want to put a toll outside banff and one outside Tete Jaune. Let's be fair!
    Onward and upward

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    Grande Cache?? You mean Cache Creek, do you not?

    But here's an idea: seeing that the Coquihalla is now a Yellowhead Highway, maybe they should use the toll money to twin the Kamloops-Valemount route. After all, one would think that the tolls would have paid off the Coquihalla already.

    .
    Yes, cache creek....

    I would agree on using the toll money for expansion of both highways, unless they want to put a toll outside banff and one outside Tete Jaune. Let's be fair!
    They already have toll booths at each of the national park entrances. Utilize those, or put separate highway toll booths in Tete Jaune and Golden?

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    That depends - is it BC highways, the Feds, or AB/BC/Ottawa that will initiate and fund this?

    If it is BC - then do it in BC...
    Onward and upward

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    I hate the idea of toll roads. We pay taxes on fuel to fund road construction and maintanence. Governments (especially the one in Ottawa) need to stop putting that money into general revenue and direct it all towards road projects (including road projects in cities). If that's not enough, then raise the fuel taxes. I'd rather pay a few extra cents per litre than have to stop at a toll booth. Even modern automated toll collection methods are more cumbersome than a higher fuel tax. Fuel taxes also avoid discreet toll levels, allowing the user fee to increase in a smooth fashion as vehicle size and weight (and consequently impact on the road) increases.

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    While I wish the fuel taxes would go to 100% vehicular infrastructure, you’d have a fat chance of getting that to happen. Experience and political lobbying proves otherwise.
    Onward and upward

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    Just going back to tourist attractions along the Hwy 5 to entice more travellers and help grow the towns along the route:

    That would be great news if the ski resort by Valemount is built. It may help grow that town significantly.

    Something else I'd like to see are some large, high-class, year-round resorts around the Blue River/Avola area that offer a wide variety of activities for every type of traveller. Golf courses, hotels, fine dining, bus trips into Wells Grey Provincial Park, skiing, hot springs, swimming pools, horseriding, fishing in the North Thompson, maybe even a casino or two. The stretch between Clearwater and Valemount seems to be most desolate, so these type of developments could fill in a gap or two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    Golf courses
    I'm with Mark Twain on golf, I'd rather go hiking in the woods. Golf does seem to be very popular though , so I suppose it will happen sooner or later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    hotels, fine dining, maybe even a casino or two.
    Why would you drive all the way to Blue River for something that can be found in abundance in the city? Besides, I've never seen something look quite so out of place as a fancy hotel in the bush. Think of Lake Louise - beautiful alpine lake on your left, giant hotel on your right. It just doesn't fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    skiing
    Yes, there could be great skiing there. Last time I drove through in the winter it was sunny and a bit brown looking in Tete Jaune and sunny and very brown looking in Kamloops, but near Blue River wew were driving through a near white out on a snow covered road that formed the bottom of a trough between two vertical snowbanks at least 5m high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    hot springs, swimming pools
    There's hot springs there? Where?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    hotels, fine dining, maybe even a casino or two.
    Why would you drive all the way to Blue River for something that can be found in abundance in the city?
    Because not everyone is going to do the 12-hour marathon drive from E-town to Van City, or even the 5 hour haul between Kamloops and Jasper. And not everyone wants to sleep in a tent, in their car, or in a one-horse-town motel run by Norman Bates.

    And because, once again, I want to see development and growth occur on Hwy 5 that will attract more tourism, provide more amenities to travellers, and leads to getting that road twinned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    hot springs, swimming pools
    There's hot springs there? Where?
    Ah, dig a deep enough hole in the ground and I'm sure one will spring up!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    Because not everyone is going to do the 12-hour marathon drive from E-town to Van City, or even the 5 hour haul between Kamloops and Jasper. And not everyone wants to sleep in a tent, in their car, or in a one-horse-town motel run by Norman Bates.

    And because, once again, I want to see development and growth occur on Hwy 5 that will attract more tourism, provide more amenities to travellers, and leads to getting that road twinned.
    People who drive to Vancouver are either cheap bastards or people who enjoy driving long distances. The fancy hotel and fine dining set are more likely to be found in the executive class section of an airplane than on the highway. The rest of us either drive through or look for the cheapest place on the motel strip in Kamloops.

    There is great potential for more tourism development based on outdoor recreation in that area, but I don't think another Banff or Whistler is going to happen 600 km from the nearest major city. An off the beaten track resort area with great skiing, lots of summer activities and affordable accomodation could work though.

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    another reason for twinning and more division....i was driving back this past weekend. There was a fatality just north of Kamloops....2-4hr delay.

    traffic was a mess.
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    Wanna know what else should be twinned? The CNR line between Edmonton and Vancouver.

    I remember taking the VIA to Van City a few years ago, and it took nearly a whole day to get there. Why? Because not only did the VIA stop at every one-horse town along the way (including a 4-hour stop in Jasper), but several times it had to stop and wait for another train coming down the track. I can imagine all freight trains have to do likewise.

    I say twin the CNR from E-Town westward if its possible, so that all trains can move freely without hindering each other. And this can also allow for expanded VIA service: express non-stop to Van City, day trips to Jasper, the regular stop-at-every-lightbulb service.

    Imagine the competitive advantage that would be over the CP line through Calgary?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    Wanna know what else should be twinned? The CNR line between Edmonton and Vancouver.

    I remember taking the VIA to Van City a few years ago, and it took nearly a whole day to get there. Why? Because not only did the VIA stop at every one-horse town along the way (including a 4-hour stop in Jasper), but several times it had to stop and wait for another train coming down the track. I can imagine all freight trains have to do likewise.

    I say twin the CNR from E-Town westward if its possible, so that all trains can move freely without hindering each other. And this can also allow for expanded VIA service: express non-stop to Van City, day trips to Jasper, the regular stop-at-every-lightbulb service.

    Imagine the competitive advantage that would be over the CP line through Calgary?

    im thinking this WILL happen because of the price rupert thing
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    It is in the works...
    Onward and upward

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48

    People who drive to Vancouver are either cheap bastards or people who enjoy driving long distances. The fancy hotel and fine dining set are more likely to be found in the executive class section of an airplane than on the highway. The rest of us either drive through or look for the cheapest place on the motel strip in Kamloops.

    There is great potential for more tourism development based on outdoor recreation in that area, but I don't think another Banff or Whistler is going to happen 600 km from the nearest major city. An off the beaten track resort area with great skiing, lots of summer activities and affordable accomodation could work though.
    I am not so much a cheap ******* but I am someone who likes to drive. However, why would this be something that woudl be a valid argument to NOT develop the area. Develop it and the "cheap bastards" will have "rich beeeeatches" sharing the road.

    BC would want more tourist $$$, no?

    As for a "resort" 3-4-5-600 kms from Edmonton, why the heck not? It could be served by road, rail, and air. Valemount has a great location for an expanded landing strip. Kamloops could finally get it s act together. Blue River has opportunites for a more natural, outback style tourist destination. Why the heck not?

    I'll bet that with the right TLC, Valemount and BR are goldmines.
    Onward and upward

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    I suppose there's some personal bias in my previous comment, as a Whistler type resort doesn't really appeal to me but something simpler, cheaper and less crowded would.

    Whistler was just a ski hill 30 years ago and the Blue River-Valemount area could develop the same way, but not being close to a big city certainly won't help it along that path.

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    I don't think we'll ever see a resort as big as Whistler in the Valemount area becuase it's too damned far from Edmonton or any other major city.

    But I still wouldn't be surprised if a new major ski resort does go up near Valemount or somewhere near there in the future as has been planned. This is particularly if Marmot Basin can no longer expand any further due to environmental concerns and Parks Canada regs. I'm sure Marmot Basin's already growing in numbers of skiers per year because of rapid population growth in Edmonton and Grande Prairie and the rest of Northern Alberta. Which means that it might not be long before Marmot reaches a limit to how much it can expand. Since there's no way in hell they're ever going to allow a 2nd ski resort inside Jasper NP, you can bet that prospective developers wanting to set up a ski resort will be looking at the Valemount/Blue River area.

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    i really hope another resort goes up within an hours drive of jasper....
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    Hinton does have the potential to be another Canmore.

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    After driving this recently, I think twinning this route from Hinton to Kamloops is very doable. There are some parts where the road is climbing along the sides of canyons, but there are no dangerous hairpins like you'd see on the Trans-Canada or the Sea-To-Sky (the hwy between Vancouver and Whistler).

    In fact, the Sea-To-Sky is in the process of being twinned for the Olympics. They're blasting away on the canyons and mountainsides, and may even tunnel under a couple of mountains. And I've read that the Trans-Canada is going to be twinned and rerouted through tunnels in the Kicking Horse Pass.

    Both look like daunting tasks but twinning the Yellowhead would be far easier.

    And all that open land in the beautiful, green and lush Thompson Valley between Kamloops and Blue River...all ripe for resort development. I could see this happening, now that real estate in the Okanagan is skyrocketing into the stratosphere. As for the Valemount area...skiing, skiing and skiing.

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    Yep...what he said.
    Onward and upward

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    If anyone is curious about the improvements to Hwy 1 in the Kicking Horse Canyon:
    http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/kickinghorse/index.htm

    Other BC highway projects:
    http://www3.telus.net/bcpl8s/projects.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    If anyone is curious about the improvements to Hwy 1 in the Kicking Horse Canyon:
    http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/kickinghorse/index.htm
    The new bridge piers are pretty impressive. Should be a great view when it's done. More lanes will be a good thing too, following a truck doing 40km/h down the hill into Golden is no fun.

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    Update from a recent road trip:

    - parts of Hwy #1 has now been twinned in the Kicking Horse canyon east of Golden. It's a smooth drive in the completed parts. The uncompleted stretches are still white-knuckle hairpins. You don't realize that you've driven across the new Park Bridge until it's too late.

    - Hwy #1 is currently getting twinned from the the BC border to the Radium turn-off.

    - either it's been years since I've driven Hwy #1 in BC or I never noticed this before, but I realized that one section is twinned for a lengthy stretch east of Sicamous. When was this done?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    I know this is a little out of this forum's range but Edmonton is suffering because of a key missing infrastructure link. It would sure be nice if B.C. twinned hwy 5 north of Kamloops to the Alberta border and if we finished hwy 16 to meet it. I realize it is a monumental project but so was the Coquihalla.
    A 4 lane highway to the coast would allow more trucks to utilize the lower grades of the Yellowhead Pass and would greatly improve our competetive situation.
    I was thinking the Alberta Government could provide low rate or interest free loans to B.C. to spur this on.
    Any guesses as to how receptive the Calgary provincial government would be to this idea?
    As a BC taxpayer, I'd say it would be a complete waste of money. The two lane highway is enough for the traffic. Besides, cost of building roads in the BC mountains is much more expensive than on the Prairies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    After driving this recently, I think twinning this route from Hinton to Kamloops is very doable. There are some parts where the road is climbing along the sides of canyons, but there are no dangerous hairpins like you'd see on the Trans-Canada or the Sea-To-Sky (the hwy between Vancouver and Whistler).

    In fact, the Sea-To-Sky is in the process of being twinned for the Olympics. They're blasting away on the canyons and mountainsides, and may even tunnel under a couple of mountains. And I've read that the Trans-Canada is going to be twinned and rerouted through tunnels in the Kicking Horse Pass.

    Both look like daunting tasks but twinning the Yellowhead would be far easier.

    And all that open land in the beautiful, green and lush Thompson Valley between Kamloops and Blue River...all ripe for resort development. I could see this happening, now that real estate in the Okanagan is skyrocketing into the stratosphere. As for the Valemount area...skiing, skiing and skiing.
    Much of the Sea-to-sky is being upgraded from two to three lanes. No tunnels, just a massive blasting through a sensitive ecosystem in West Vancouver. Kicking Horse may have a 7+ km tunnel as it is safer and cheaper than building on the unstable mountainside.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I hate the idea of toll roads. We pay taxes on fuel to fund road construction and maintanence. Governments (especially the one in Ottawa) need to stop putting that money into general revenue and direct it all towards road projects (including road projects in cities). If that's not enough, then raise the fuel taxes. I'd rather pay a few extra cents per litre than have to stop at a toll booth. Even modern automated toll collection methods are more cumbersome than a higher fuel tax. Fuel taxes also avoid discreet toll levels, allowing the user fee to increase in a smooth fashion as vehicle size and weight (and consequently impact on the road) increases.
    Sorry - but cars don't pay their full share of the cost through taxes or licenses - including gas taxes. So cars are the most subsidized form of transit in North America. I say toll the hell out of cars and put the money into fast trains and alternate forms of transportation.
    ETS Trolley Buses - 1939 to 2010 - R.I.P.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
    Sorry - but cars don't pay their full share of the cost through taxes or licenses - including gas taxes. So cars are the most subsidized form of transit in North America. I say toll the hell out of cars and put the money into fast trains and alternate forms of transportation.
    Generally I don't have a problem with highway expansion, especially twining roads where a lot of people are dieing (like the one to FT Mac), but I agree with you on this particular one. While it would be nice in an ideal world if this motorway was twined, I think we would get better value upgrading / enhancing the commercial railway. It is just too big a project for too little payback - yes it would be nice for Edmonton, but I'm not convinced it is really needed for BC, Alberta, or Canada as a whole.

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    So, you all would rather see Hwy #1 twinned in Calgary's advantage despite a higher expense? Because that's what is slowly happening now. Read Richard S's argument in favor of twinning Yellowheads 5 and 16.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDM
    - either it's been years since I've driven Hwy #1 in BC or I never noticed this before, but I realized that one section is twinned for a lengthy stretch east of Sicamous. When was this done?
    The stretch between Revelstoke and Sicamous? It's been twinned there for a couple decades, at least. As long as I can remember. We used to go to Vernon every summer, and I can confirm it's been twinned there for at least 15 years. But it's only maybe a 15-20km stretch, if that, and that's after the brutal Roger's Pass highway. Woe to anyone caught behind a semi through there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
    (...)

    As a BC taxpayer, I'd say it would be a complete waste of money. The two lane highway is enough for the traffic. Besides, cost of building roads in the BC mountains is much more expensive than on the Prairies.
    Your bias is showing way too much here - anti car that is.

    The Yellowhead is so not scaled for the traffic it receives. As for this specific route, it will not require a heck of a lot of blasting as Mother Nature/God/whatever did most of the sculpting for us. Why do you think little "Tete Jaune" and other native guides used this route to cross the Rockies? It is lower, easier, and the North Thompson/Fraser did all the work for them. At best, there is a couple harder spots near Avola and Barierre.

    Quote Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I hate the idea of toll roads. We pay taxes on fuel to fund road construction and maintanence. Governments (especially the one in Ottawa) need to stop putting that money into general revenue and direct it all towards road projects (including road projects in cities). If that's not enough, then raise the fuel taxes. I'd rather pay a few extra cents per litre than have to stop at a toll booth. Even modern automated toll collection methods are more cumbersome than a higher fuel tax. Fuel taxes also avoid discreet toll levels, allowing the user fee to increase in a smooth fashion as vehicle size and weight (and consequently impact on the road) increases.
    Sorry - but cars don't pay their full share of the cost through taxes or licenses - including gas taxes. So cars are the most subsidized form of transit in North America. I say toll the hell out of cars and put the money into fast trains and alternate forms of transportation.
    So, the toll on the Coquahalia (?sp) didn't pay for that route, or is the BC government lying to us? So, as a BC taxpayer, is this not a net zero game at worst, and a net positive gain for BC at the least? The extra commerce that this would bring to the province would so be worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    So, you all would rather see Hwy #1 twinned in Calgary's advantage despite a higher expense? Because that's what is slowly happening now. Read Richard S's argument in favor of twinning Yellowheads 5 and 16.
    Slowly, I'd say rapidly, 100% TAXPAYER funded. Not a toll booth in sight. Harder, more $$$$, and all at the expense of the Feds and the province.
    Last edited by RichardS; 21-07-2008 at 11:00 AM. Reason: type-o
    Onward and upward

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    From Revelstopke west, the only section that is twinned is about a 10k stretch from just east of Sicamous to west of Malakwa, & that's been done for some time.

    THe pass around Golden is getting a lot better, but it's been so bad for so long something needed to be done.

    I drive hwy 5 between Valemount and Kamloops regularly, and don't see a need for that road to be twinned. The highway is 100kph the whole length with ample passing lanes.

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    And very little traffic. It's a great highway as it is, really.

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    As for the Coquihalla toll booth, is it still covering the costs of that road plus the Okanagan Connector? If not then use the proceeds to twin the rest of Hwy 5.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    I thought 97C was "paid for" as well.

    There is the funding for the straightening of 97 between Peachland and Summerland that may be coming out of the tolls...but I am not sure.

    Put a toll outside the national parks on the BC side. That would fund both nicely.
    Onward and upward

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    There is the funding for the straightening of 97 between Peachland and Summerland that may be coming out of the tolls...but I am not sure.
    They just finished the new bridge between Kelowna and Westbank and are now tearing down the old floating bridge. There are plans to twin the Port Mann Bridge and to build a new freeway from the Tsawassen Ferry terminal to Hwy 1. I wonder if all these projects plus the Kicking Horse Canyon project are being funded by Coquihalla tolls too?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    They're tearing down the old bridge in Kelowna? That's a shame. I really loved that bridge. It was definitely unique.

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    It's a hindrance to boat traffic though.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    How is it a hindrance to boat traffic? The middle of the bridge can lift up to let larger boats pass by, and smaller ones can just go underneath it.

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    The bridge really only hindered traffic. It really was undersized given the amount of traffic that crosses it each day, especially in the summer. Good riddance, I say. Can't wait to try the new bridge out!

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    Well yes, I know traffic was a problem, which is why two bridges would have made sense. I haven't been to Kelowna in a few years now, so I have no idea how large the new bridge is, but I am assuming it will be capable of handling the traffic (at least I hope so).

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    I think there were maintenance issues with the old bridge as well. From what I understand the pontoons on the floating section were at the end of their useable lifespan.

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    Oh well... I just remember that bridge from my days visiting family in Kelowna, and it brings back a lot of good memories. I'm sure one day, the new one will do the same for other people. If anyone ever gets a picture of it, I would love to see what it looks like.

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    Actually, nevermind... Here it is for anyone who is interested:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    So, you all would rather see Hwy #1 twinned in Calgary's advantage despite a higher expense? Because that's what is slowly happening now. Read Richard S's argument in favor of twinning Yellowheads 5 and 16.
    Whether we like it or not, Highway 1 is going to be twinned, it is the busier road right now. No amount of lobying is going to stop that. So, we will have 1 twinned road to the coast. Do we need another? While it would be nice, I don't think the "because Calgary has it, we must have it" whine, is enough reason to justify the expense, there are much higher priorities right now (finishing Ft mac road, and perhaps Grand Prairie, jump to mind), not to mention better trains inner city, and perhaps inter-city (like Stoney Plain).
    Last edited by moahunter; 21-07-2008 at 06:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    So, you all would rather see Hwy #1 twinned in Calgary's advantage despite a higher expense? Because that's what is slowly happening now. Read Richard S's argument in favor of twinning Yellowheads 5 and 16.
    Whether we like it or not, Highway 1 is going to be twinned, it is the busier road right now. No amount of lobying is going to stop that. So, we will have 1 twinned road to the coast. Do we need another? While it would be nice, I don't think the "because Calgary has it, we must have it" whine, is enough reason to justify the expense, there are much higher priorities right now (finishing Ft mac road, and perhaps Grand Prairie, jump to mind), not to mention better trains inner city, and perhaps inter-city (like Stoney Plain).
    Edmonton - Grande Prairie on highway 43 is twinned almost the whole way. The government acquired land for twinning the remaining 38 km two-lane section through Sturgeon Lake Cree Nation last fall: http://www.gov.ab.ca/acn/200710/2224...A91891D25.html
    Highway 43 from Grande Prairie to the BC border remains mostly two-lane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    So, you all would rather see Hwy #1 twinned in Calgary's advantage despite a higher expense? Because that's what is slowly happening now. Read Richard S's argument in favor of twinning Yellowheads 5 and 16.
    Whether we like it or not, Highway 1 is going to be twinned, it is the busier road right now. No amount of lobying is going to stop that. So, we will have 1 twinned road to the coast. Do we need another? While it would be nice, I don't think the "because Calgary has it, we must have it" whine, is enough reason to justify the expense, there are much higher priorities right now (finishing Ft mac road, and perhaps Grand Prairie, jump to mind), not to mention better trains inner city, and perhaps inter-city (like Stoney Plain).
    First off, those are all Alberta projects, and most of Alberta's section of the Yellowhead is already twinned anyway, so its irrelevant. It's the BC section that is of concern.

    And don't forget that the Yellowhead is a Trans-Canada Highway as well. Which means that, theoretically, the feds should be ponying up for it.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    I've asked this before and I'll ask again:

    Why doesn't Hwy 5 in BC have the Trans-Canada Highway designations like the rest of the Yellowhead?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    /\ I don't know for sure but I would guess the Northern Trans Canada in B.C. is the Highway to Prince Rupert. So # 5 is just a B.C. Highway.

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    ^ Yes, the Yellowhead #16 to Rupert is a Trans Canada Highway. But Hwy 5 is a Yellowhead Highway from Valemount to Hope though, so theoretically it should be a Trans Canada Hwy too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    So, you all would rather see Hwy #1 twinned in Calgary's advantage despite a higher expense? Because that's what is slowly happening now. Read Richard S's argument in favor of twinning Yellowheads 5 and 16.
    Whether we like it or not, Highway 1 is going to be twinned, it is the busier road right now. No amount of lobying is going to stop that. So, we will have 1 twinned road to the coast. Do we need another? While it would be nice, I don't think the "because Calgary has it, we must have it" whine, is enough reason to justify the expense, there are much higher priorities right now (finishing Ft mac road, and perhaps Grand Prairie, jump to mind), not to mention better trains inner city, and perhaps inter-city (like Stoney Plain).
    Like it or not, there is no debate here. They BOTH should be done. The amount of cargo is incredible. The ability to open up more northern routes is there too. This "all Christmas lights strung on one strand" Canadian approach is pathetic.

    It so isn't a "Calgary has it" whine. Hwy 5 is incredibly easier to twin. They both should be done, and both shoudl be toll roads. No discussion.

    I would place this well above some inter-city train to Stony. Seriously. The amount of people and goods that would be opened up by this route...♦
    Onward and upward

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    BC under the NDP basicly went nowhere, you had such multimillion dollars project such as Lions Gate Bridge which took the bridge from 3 lanes to 3 lanes. Oh they did strengthen it seismicly and made it a bid wider by moving sidewalks from inside the cables to outside of them, with of course much auto-backpatting when done. I think under Clark and Dosanjh BC highways regressed. Under Campbell at least Trans-Canada is starting to improve, but as they are focusing their dollars on the Olympics don't expect to see much improvements outside of the lower mainland.

    House Pass, Blaeberry River route will never be developped in my lifetime, the major reason is of course the national park.

    As for toll roads we already pay a boat load in gas taxes, and other taxes, no I am not in support of tolls. Governments already waste too much money on pet projects I don't want to give them more money to waste. Coquihalla is now paid off, but yet the toll remains

    Getting back on topic while Yellowhead Pass, didn't his royal prime ministership Harper promise to twin the Yellowhead? I believe if my memory is right he did say something about this about 2-3 years ago?
    Last edited by sundance; 22-07-2008 at 05:46 PM. Reason: Added some additional information

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    I thought it was Chretien who ordained that the TransCanada would be twinned as his legacy?

    BC under the NDP basicly went nowhere
    Well, to be fair, Clark did get a lot of nifty renovations done at his house for a fantastic price!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I hate the idea of toll roads. We pay taxes on fuel to fund road construction and maintanence. Governments (especially the one in Ottawa) need to stop putting that money into general revenue and direct it all towards road projects (including road projects in cities). If that's not enough, then raise the fuel taxes. I'd rather pay a few extra cents per litre than have to stop at a toll booth. Even modern automated toll collection methods are more cumbersome than a higher fuel tax. Fuel taxes also avoid discreet toll levels, allowing the user fee to increase in a smooth fashion as vehicle size and weight (and consequently impact on the road) increases.
    Sorry - but cars don't pay their full share of the cost through taxes or licenses - including gas taxes. So cars are the most subsidized form of transit in North America. I say toll the hell out of cars and put the money into fast trains and alternate forms of transportation.
    What makes toll booths everywhere better than higher fuel taxes? You could build and maintain a massive amount of toll collection infrastructure on the nations highways, or you could raise fuel taxes. Both could eliminate any subsidy on private automobiles, but the fuel tax would do so much more efficiently. I'd rather spend another $100 on gas than have to deal with $100 in tolls.

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    On the subject of highway twinning to the coast, it's really too bad that highway 16 wasn't twinned in concert with the pipeline project. We could have had a much improved highway for minimal additional environmental disruption.

    As for the Kelowna bridge, I wish they would/could have built it about 20 km further north. There will now be great access from the south to the extended parking lot that is highway 97 through Kelowna.
    Last edited by Titanium48; 25-07-2008 at 10:16 PM.

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    ^ Not sure if it's geographically possible to build any bypasses around Kelowna, only a highway engineer could answer that question. Plus one also has to consider bypassing the Westbank "parking lot" from the new bridge to 97C. The need for a bypass also depends on if Kelowna still considers the current Hwy 97 a tourism lifeline or if they feel they've become big enough and popular enough to no longer having to rely on Hwy 97.
    Last edited by Sonic Death Monkey; 25-07-2008 at 11:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    ^ Not sure if it's geographically possible to build any bypasses around Kelowna, only a highway engineer could answer that question. Plus one also has to consider bypassing the Westbank "parking lot" from the new bridge to 97C. The need for a bypass also depends on if Kelowna still considers the current Hwy 97 a tourism lifeline or if they feel they've become big enough and popular enough to no longer having to rely on Hwy 97.
    Some of you need to take your Edmonton/Alberta lenses off. BC is not Alberta - we don't want highways all over the place. For Kelowna a bypass would be possible, but expensive environmentally and financially. It's not going to happen.
    ETS Trolley Buses - 1939 to 2010 - R.I.P.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    BC under the NDP basicly went nowhere, you had such multimillion dollars project such as Lions Gate Bridge which took the bridge from 3 lanes to 3 lanes. Oh they did strengthen it seismicly and made it a bid wider by moving sidewalks from inside the cables to outside of them, with of course much auto-backpatting when done. I think under Clark and Dosanjh BC highways regressed. Under Campbell at least Trans-Canada is starting to improve, but as they are focusing their dollars on the Olympics don't expect to see much improvements outside of the lower mainland.

    House Pass, Blaeberry River route will never be developped in my lifetime, the major reason is of course the national park.

    As for toll roads we already pay a boat load in gas taxes, and other taxes, no I am not in support of tolls. Governments already waste too much money on pet projects I don't want to give them more money to waste. Coquihalla is now paid off, but yet the toll remains

    Getting back on topic while Yellowhead Pass, didn't his royal prime ministership Harper promise to twin the Yellowhead? I believe if my memory is right he did say something about this about 2-3 years ago?
    The Lions Gate Bridge was proposed to be twinned. It met fierce opposition from residents in the Lower Mainland and would have done significant damage to Stanley Park. Vancouver was opposed strongly to the increase in number of lanes. The bridge works fine as it is with three lanes.
    ETS Trolley Buses - 1939 to 2010 - R.I.P.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
    BC is not Alberta - we don't want highways all over the place.
    So you're speaking on behalf of an entire province whether they want you to or not, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
    For Kelowna a bypass would be possible, but expensive environmentally and financially. It's not going to happen.
    Kelowna is going to have to do something about their gridlock traffic on Hwy 97.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
    BC is not Alberta - we don't want highways all over the place.
    So you're speaking on behalf of an entire province whether they want you to or not, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
    For Kelowna a bypass would be possible, but expensive environmentally and financially. It's not going to happen.
    Kelowna is going to have to do something about their gridlock traffic on Hwy 97.
    Actually, something IS going to happen with Kelowna, it's called the Central Okanagan Bypass and it invloves an expressway through Kelowna and a possible 2nd lake crossing. This is taken from the City of Kelowna website

    Main Page - http://www.city.kelowna.bc.ca/CM/Page432.aspx
    Alignment Map - http://www.city.kelowna.bc.ca/CityPa...ation/COMC.gif

    In my opinion they should also improve Hwy 10 in the Lower Mainland to a freeway between the Trans Canada and Hwy 99 to better connect the Tswassen Ferry terminal with the rest of the province. It serve an Anthony Henday Drive-like purpose for Greater Vancouver.
    Last edited by dmuzika; 27-07-2008 at 12:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmuzika View Post
    In my opinion they should also improve Hwy 10 in the Lower Mainland to a freeway between the Trans Canada and Hwy 99 to better connect the Tswassen Ferry terminal with the rest of the province. It serve an Anthony Henday Drive-like purpose for Greater Vancouver.
    They are now planning to build a new freeway from Tsawwassen to Hwy 1 in Surrey:
    http://www.gatewayprogram.bc.ca/
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Getting back on topic. Actually I'd be happy if BC just added more passing lanes say 1 mile every 5 where the terrain will let you on the major routes that are 2 laned, 1, 5 and 16. This wouldn't take up too much room and wouldn't cost too much and would reduce jams and accidents.

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    So much for using Coquihalla toll funds for improving the rest of the Yellowhead. Now that it's paid for, the Coquihalla will now become a toll-free highway.
    http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/n...b-1424951b5251
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dmuzika View Post
    In my opinion they should also improve Hwy 10 in the Lower Mainland to a freeway between the Trans Canada and Hwy 99 to better connect the Tswassen Ferry terminal with the rest of the province. It serve an Anthony Henday Drive-like purpose for Greater Vancouver.
    They are now planning to build a new freeway from Tsawwassen to Hwy 1 in Surrey:
    http://www.gatewayprogram.bc.ca/
    The South Perimeter Road is not a freeway, it's a 4-lane highway that will have signalised intersections. It's routing is designed to serve the industrial areas along the South Fraser and provide a new link to Delta Port.

    Highway 10 has been widened to 4-lanes and is much faster than the old 2-lane road.

    It's a mistake. It will be jam-packed with single occupant cars for commuters a few days after opening. A better solution would have been to build truck only lanes along this route.
    ETS Trolley Buses - 1939 to 2010 - R.I.P.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    So much for using Coquihalla toll funds for improving the rest of the Yellowhead. Now that it's paid for, the Coquihalla will now become a toll-free highway.
    http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/n...b-1424951b5251
    The removal of the toll was a surprise to us here in BC. The government had just spent a lot of money upgrading the toll booths less than a year ago.
    ETS Trolley Buses - 1939 to 2010 - R.I.P.

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    I think the previous government was going to "sell" the Coquihalla to a private company and keep the tolls on it forever, if my memory is right they received huge public blowback over this and reconsidered their decision as pretty much all the politicians would be out of work.

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    if you look at highway 1 at yohoo national park and banf national park. there has been alot of work in the last few years and future planned work and work that is presently being worked on by widening it to 4 lanes. it can be safe to say that its being done on highway 1 .... however you cant build it in a day..

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    Quote Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dmuzika View Post
    In my opinion they should also improve Hwy 10 in the Lower Mainland to a freeway between the Trans Canada and Hwy 99 to better connect the Tswassen Ferry terminal with the rest of the province. It serve an Anthony Henday Drive-like purpose for Greater Vancouver.
    They are now planning to build a new freeway from Tsawwassen to Hwy 1 in Surrey:
    http://www.gatewayprogram.bc.ca/
    The South Perimeter Road is not a freeway, it's a 4-lane highway that will have signalised intersections. It's routing is designed to serve the industrial areas along the South Fraser and provide a new link to Delta Port.

    Highway 10 has been widened to 4-lanes and is much faster than the old 2-lane road.

    It's a mistake. It will be jam-packed with single occupant cars for commuters a few days after opening. A better solution would have been to build truck only lanes along this route.
    When was Hwy 10 upgraded? Last time I drove from the Tsawwassen ferry terminal to Abbotsford it took me nearly 2 hours, which used to take less than an hour. And that sucks that the South Perimeter won't be a free-flow. The Lower Mainland needs a better highway link between the Interior and the ferry to Victoria.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    They've done a bit of work east of Golden, but they really need to put some passing lanes in between Golden and the Columbia River crossing, it shouldn't be that expensive either.

    You can check out their plans for between Golden and Yoho NP at this site;
    http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/kickinghorse/index.htm

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    *Groan* Hwy 10 between Langley and Hwy 99 is a crock. Parts of it looks like they've been taking forever to get ANY widening/twinning done!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    They've done a bit of work east of Golden, but they really need to put some passing lanes in between Golden and the Columbia River crossing, it shouldn't be that expensive either.
    Even a full divided highway wouldn't be that difficult there in the valley.

    There's something I find quite odd about the Columbia valley highway. Between Golden and Invermere the highway (#95) generally has narrow to non-existant shoulders and frequent intersections, while Northwest of Golden (#1) the shoulders are wider and the intersections fewer and farther between. Otherwise, the terrain is pretty much the same, but paradoxically, the speed limit is 100 km/h for highway 95 and 90 km/h for highway 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dmuzika View Post
    In my opinion they should also improve Hwy 10 in the Lower Mainland to a freeway between the Trans Canada and Hwy 99 to better connect the Tswassen Ferry terminal with the rest of the province. It serve an Anthony Henday Drive-like purpose for Greater Vancouver.
    They are now planning to build a new freeway from Tsawwassen to Hwy 1 in Surrey:
    http://www.gatewayprogram.bc.ca/
    The South Perimeter Road is not a freeway, it's a 4-lane highway that will have signalised intersections. It's routing is designed to serve the industrial areas along the South Fraser and provide a new link to Delta Port.

    Highway 10 has been widened to 4-lanes and is much faster than the old 2-lane road.

    It's a mistake. It will be jam-packed with single occupant cars for commuters a few days after opening. A better solution would have been to build truck only lanes along this route.
    When was Hwy 10 upgraded? Last time I drove from the Tsawwassen ferry terminal to Abbotsford it took me nearly 2 hours, which used to take less than an hour. And that sucks that the South Perimeter won't be a free-flow. The Lower Mainland needs a better highway link between the Interior and the ferry to Victoria.
    When I drove through in August it was 4-lanes from the Annacis Highway to Langley.

    I live on the island and the current roads are fine. a freeflow highway would only be congested anyway.
    ETS Trolley Buses - 1939 to 2010 - R.I.P.

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    ^ How long does it take to drive that route now?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Actually my plan for a divided highway to the coast had an element of correctional reform in it. Give long term offenders a sledge hammer and a chisel and have the build a 4 lane tunnel (or tunnels) from just east of the park boundry on highway 11, angling SW to catch up with the Blaeberry river valley. If its a tunnel then it wouldn't impact the park at all, although feeding them might be more expensive then a TBM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    ^ How long does it take to drive that route now?
    Depends on traffic. About an hour from the ferry terminal to Exit 66 on the Highway 1, about an hour 20 minutes to Abbotsford, two hours to Hope, 3 hours 45 minutes to Kamloops, 8 hours 30 minutes to Jasper and 12 hours, 30 minutes to Edmonton
    ETS Trolley Buses - 1939 to 2010 - R.I.P.

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    http://www.630ched.com/Channels/Reg/...spx?id=1048104
    Jim Prentice: 14km of Trans Canada to be twinned in Banff
    10:40AM
    EDMONTON/630 CHED
    12/21/2008

    Another 14 kilomters of the Trans Canada Highway through Banff National Park is set to be twinned.

    Environment Minister Jim Prentice made the announcement in Lake Louise, saying 14 kilometres of the Highway West of Castle Junction to Lake Louise will be the next phase of twinning to begin.

    Prentice told the Alberta Weekend Morning Show, crews here are becoming experts at this type of construction ..
    "Well we've learned over the last few years about how to do the upgrade through the mountain park. It's done with a lot of attention to the wildlife crossings... which I think people were initially a little concerned about. As it has actually proven out, it's worked really well. And, in fact, people come from all over the word to look at how we do it in Banff, to take back and follow in other countries."

    Work is expected to be completed by 2013.

    This is in addition to 9 kilometres of twinning work already underway. (sl,blb)
    I understand this is the section between Lake Louise and the Radium exit.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Less hiways and more trains

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    Less hiways and more trains
    You know, we're likely to laugh at this because trains are so bad that their not even an option.

    I don't know what it would take, and it might be far more than twinning the yellowhead, but if the CN line were twinned, or at least enough of it so that a train could go fast enough the whole way to be competitive with cars, ran regularly enough (at least twice a day each way) and were priced as transportation, not as a premium tourist route, It just might be very popular, especially during the winter when road conditions and darkness make the two lane yellowhead so dangerous and difficult. And in the summer, when travellers like to travel.

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    ^ Highlander has done a good job of establishing the minimum requirements for viable passenger train service to Vancouver - no more than 12 hours or $100 one way. I don't think it's going to happen.

    I like the idea of more highway 1 upgrades though, considering that most of my trips to BC are to the southern interior. 4 years is a long time to wait for 14 km of road though.

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    Part of the passenger train problem is CN and CP make more money shipping freight, and they have priority over passenger lines. Their rights may even be constitutionally enshrined as the CP helped create western Canada.

    To have a passenger train go Edmonton to Vancouver in 12 hours means it has to have priority over freight, the only way for that to happen is to negotiate new deals, why would CP or CN give up profit unless you give them something in exchange? The next question is what to offer, about the only big plan that I can see right now is a tunnel from just west of Lake Louise under Roger's Pass and come out about Field to bypass the spiral tunnels. Pretty much everything else is as low of a grade as you can can reasonably get.

    There is probably opportunities in the lower mainland for commuter rail from Hope or Langley to downtown Vancouver, this can reduce road traffic.

    But really the big thing would be to raise the limit on 5 to 100 kmh from Kamloops to Valemount where possible. Some twinning or passing lanes are needed as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    To have a passenger train go Edmonton to Vancouver in 12 hours means it has to have priority over freight
    It takes 24 hours to travel from Edmonton to Vancouver by VIA Rail.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post

    But really the big thing would be to raise the limit on 5 to 100 kmh from Kamloops to Valemount where possible. Some twinning or passing lanes are needed as well.
    There's only about 100 km of 90 km/h zone between Little Fort and the Sun Peaks turnoff. The rest is 100 km/h already. Some passing lanes would be useful though - the road is pretty flat and straight by BC standards but there are several hilly and/or twisty sections that don't have good sightlines for passing.

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    Unfortunately BC under Harcout to Dosanjh (NDP) decided to spend money on the Lions Gate Bridge, taking an overused unseismicly safe 3 lane bridge that has traffic jams miles long into a seismic safe 3 lane bridge with traffic jams. They also spent millions doing the exact same thing to the Port Mann bridge, yes I realise that it's important for the bridge to withstand quakes there, but you think while you're doing construction for a year or more that you could have added on at least 1 lane.

    Under Campbell they are seriously planning (not sure the time frame) on building a second bridge beside Port Mann and widening the Trans-Canada from Langley to the Cassier Tunnel.

    For right now 16 and 5 are pretty much adequate for the traffic if they add passing lanes. Trans-Canada needs serious upgrading in many spots to increase capacity by twinning and other upgrades, such as bypassing Salmon Arm and Sicamous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Unfortunately BC under Harcout to Dosanjh (NDP) decided to spend money on the Lions Gate Bridge, taking an overused unseismicly safe 3 lane bridge that has traffic jams miles long into a seismic safe 3 lane bridge with traffic jams. They also spent millions doing the exact same thing to the Port Mann bridge, yes I realise that it's important for the bridge to withstand quakes there, but you think while you're doing construction for a year or more that you could have added on at least 1 lane.
    As my understanding goes, the Lions Gate was actually a two-lane bridge with a pedestrian sidewalk, which was removed to add the third lane and traffic control. A new pedestrian sidewalk was added to the outside of the bridge structure.

    I don't think it's possible to add any more lanes to a bridge like that. You would need to build a second bridge to add to it any further.
    Strathcona City Separatist

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