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Thread: The Quarters | Neighbourhood Revitalization | Discussion

  1. #101
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    No physical changes to date. The lands have all been rezoned to dc2. I thought that infrastructure changes would going to start this summer - sidewalks, street-furniture etc.. but I am really not sure. I talked to the realtor for the Valleyview who advised the project is on hold

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    So has anyone heard anything about the Quarters lately? The only update I've seen is maybe positive or maybe not, but I noticed the other day that the signs about the Quarters have been taken down in the downtown area.
    Keep in mind that "The Quarters" is not a project per say, like say VFTC or Century Park or Strathearn. There isn't a single owner or developer, and really all it was is a framework for redeveloping the whole area over the next several decades. Given the current state of the condo market in the city, I don't expect a flurry of projects any time soon.

    Who knows though, some developers might be assembling parcels of land and planning projects for the future and we just don't hear about it.

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    Very true... and if the economy picks up, hopefully we'll see some action in the Quarters in the next few years.

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    I took a bus down there yesterday and the acres of gravel lots and sketchy housing is not appealing in the slightest. It's a great location in terms of convenience to the river valley, downtown, public transit, etc. and I am sure land is fairly cheap but that's really all it has going for it at the moment. It's pretty scary overall.

    This area will need a LOT of work before it becomes desirable to the average person. I expect 15 to 20 years. I hope it happens.

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    ^which is the realistic timeframe for that size of area... people need to recognize that this is a LONG-TERM vision/plan with many variables and obstacles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    I took a bus down there yesterday and the acres of gravel lots and sketchy housing is not appealing in the slightest. It's a great location in terms of convenience to the river valley, downtown, public transit, etc. and I am sure land is fairly cheap but that's really all it has going for it at the moment. It's pretty scary overall.

    This area will need a LOT of work before it becomes desirable to the average person. I expect 15 to 20 years. I hope it happens.
    Believe it or not, this would have been a fantastic description of 104th Street between Jasper and 104th Avenue 10, even 5 years ago, prior to the Cecil being torn down, the Icon's and Century being built, and several of the warehouses being converted.

    But yup, this one's longer term if only because of the sheer size of the area. However it might only take a handful of projects to make a HUGE difference in perception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raz0469 View Post
    Believe it or not, this would have been a fantastic description of 104th Street between Jasper and 104th Avenue 10, even 5 years ago,
    Oh, I know - I used to work in a building just a block away from that street, maybe 8 years ago now. The changes since that time have been amazing. But really it was only the West side of that one block between Jasper and 102 Ave that has been built pretty much from scratch. There is WAY too much space in the Quarters area for that much of a difference to be made in a decade.

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    A friend recently was at a conference where they told him about an area they revitalized an area very similar to the Quarters in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammarby_Sj%C3%B6stad), and it was incredibly successful.

    The difference there was that the government basically took all of the land and then sold it off, rather than letting it develop piecemeal. Similar to what the City has done along Fort Road, maybe they need to become the major land owner in the area and then sell it off to 'worthy' projects.

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    I'm really awaiting for the Quarters to develop. It's the project I'm most excited about, just due to the potential. It's diverse, close to the river, downtown, easy access to transit, near ethnic neighbourhoods, lots of history, lots of historic buildings. Just needs some cleaning up, more middle class and upper class people to mix with the lower class moreso, make it feel safer, and redevelop the parking lots and create a truly vibrant neighbourhood. I've said before, it seriously looks like it could turn into something like the Pearl District or Gastown - which would be tremendously successful. It'll probably take 15 steady years of work, but I can see UCAMA and Valleyview starting in 1-2 yrs, kickstarting the development of the area.
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  10. #110
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    The city needs to get serious about this development. A park helps, but an LRT stop is permanent and major investment. Similar incentives to what has led to development on 109 street are needed.

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    ^What incentives?
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    ^4500/unit for up to 2000 units if i recall.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    A friend recently was at a conference where they told him about an area they revitalized an area very similar to the Quarters in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammarby_Sj%C3%B6stad), and it was incredibly successful.

    The difference there was that the government basically took all of the land and then sold it off, rather than letting it develop piecemeal. Similar to what the City has done along Fort Road, maybe they need to become the major land owner in the area and then sell it off to 'worthy' projects.
    That's a very interesting idea. Is this part of the problem as to why little action has been seen so far?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^4500/unit for up to 2000 units if i recall.
    The brilliant part about this kind of PER UNIT grant is that it can encourage more units as opposed to fewer, bigger units. And the City will recover the incentive through property taxes they would not receive otherwise.

    This worked wonders in and around the warehouse district. It will take some time, but I think it would do the same for the Quarters. It's an important downtown neighbourhood that could be as nice as Oliver if it's managed well. I see great things for this area, but not for a long time.
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    I think we need bigger units, too. With 2-3 bdroom, over 900sq ft, so we can attract other people to the core, like families.
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  16. #116

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    I don't think we need bigger units. Families is not the ideal market to be attracting downtown. Young professionals, students, and older couples looking for smaller places, less responsibilities.

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    ^a mixture is what we need...

    -small units for rental purposes
    -small units for 1st time buyers
    -mid sized for move up and 2 + a young one
    -large for professionals and families
    -townhouses
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I don't think we need bigger units. Families is not the ideal market to be attracting downtown. Young professionals, students, and older couples looking for smaller places, less responsibilities.
    as long as downtown includes oliver and the quarters and the north edge as well, downtown won't work as well as it should without families being part of the mix. including families downtown will be one of the keys to moving from our reliance on additional spawl to supporting additional densification. families are also what will support day-care and elementary schools and community centres and keep our places of worship alive and meaningful. that's why the loss of alex taylor school and the demise of jasper east etc. are so "linked" - we didn't support what families need (from schools to safety) and now it's difficult to attract families because they don't have the support and infrastructure they need.
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  19. #119

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    If you can buy a 2000 sqft home for 400,000 brand new or 900-1100 sq ft 2 bdrm condo for 400,000, which choice are you going to choose for raising a family?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    If you can buy a 2000 sqft home for 400,000 brand new or 900-1100 sq ft 2 bdrm condo for 400,000, which choice are you going to choose for raising a family?
    well we happen to know someone at the moment who is looking at a 1,300 sf 3 bedroom condo for about the same price as a starter home in macewen or miller who would be able to walk to work, whose kids would have a pool and a fitness faciilty and a billiards room available to them 24/7 and would be able to walk to one of the best elementary schools in the city during the week or the royal glenora on the weekend. they would be able to walk to a capitals game at telus field or watch the fireworks and the waterfall. lrt would be all of 2 blocks away to get to everything from the main library to the university hospital to commonwealth and rexall. they could bike to the free concerts at louise mckinney part or the driving range at the golf course or the kinsmen field house... not such a bad life for raising a family medwards.
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    excellent post kcantor, that is exactly it. add to it that these families will grow up in a real community and will probably be more healthy/environmental, walking or taking the transit instead of driving everywhere. and just being apart of a unique culture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    If you can buy a 2000 sqft home for 400,000 brand new or 900-1100 sq ft 2 bdrm condo for 400,000, which choice are you going to choose for raising a family?
    well we happen to know someone at the moment who is looking at a 1,300 sf 3 bedroom condo for about the same price as a starter home in macewen or miller who would be able to walk to work, whose kids would have a pool and a fitness faciilty and a billiards room available to them 24/7 and would be able to walk to one of the best elementary schools in the city during the week or the royal glenora on the weekend. they would be able to walk to a capitals game at telus field or watch the fireworks and the waterfall. lrt would be all of 2 blocks away to get to everything from the main library to the university hospital to commonwealth and rexall. they could bike to the free concerts at louise mckinney part or the driving range at the golf course or the kinsmen field house... not such a bad life for raising a family medwards.
    And they don't need to mow the lawn or shovel the walks.
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  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    If you can buy a 2000 sqft home for 400,000 brand new or 900-1100 sq ft 2 bdrm condo for 400,000, which choice are you going to choose for raising a family?
    well we happen to know someone at the moment who is looking at a 1,300 sf 3 bedroom condo for about the same price as a starter home in macewen or miller who would be able to walk to work, whose kids would have a pool and a fitness faciilty and a billiards room available to them 24/7 and would be able to walk to one of the best elementary schools in the city during the week or the royal glenora on the weekend. they would be able to walk to a capitals game at telus field or watch the fireworks and the waterfall. lrt would be all of 2 blocks away to get to everything from the main library to the university hospital to commonwealth and rexall. they could bike to the free concerts at louise mckinney part or the driving range at the golf course or the kinsmen field house... not such a bad life for raising a family medwards.
    And these people you know are in the very slim minority. Survey just about any family in Edmonton, and they'll tell you, they dont want to raise their family in the core... I dont agree with it, but it is what is.

  24. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    If you can buy a 2000 sqft home for 400,000 brand new or 900-1100 sq ft 2 bdrm condo for 400,000, which choice are you going to choose for raising a family?
    A lot of it depends on location.

    The 2000 sq ft of space is tempting, but if the condo was close to city center and the house was out near the Henday somewhere, I would choose the smaller condo in a heartbeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    And these people you know are in the very slim minority. Survey just about any family in Edmonton, and they'll tell you, they dont want to raise their family in the core... I dont agree with it, but it is what is.
    It is what it is, and it is impossible to change if the options aren't there. While they may be in the minority, their options for suitable condos are currently lacking. Additionally, the product needs to be available to meet future demand as mindsets continue to shift toward more sustainable and urban living (which they are).

    It's hard enough to see the future, but even harder if we can't look beyond the present.
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    Additionally, we need to promote condo/townhouse living in the core. Cities like Vancouver and New York have more families in their urban areas (outside of homes - too!).
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  27. #127

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    So, if there is demand for these type of developments in the core, how come we are not seeing more of them? And if there is no demand for these developments, how do we create demand? Should a developer just take a risk, and assume that people will want 900-1200 sqft 3 bdrm apartments in the Quarters?

    I certainly don't see this demand in downtown Vancouver, where the average suite size there is about the size of an average broom closet.

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    ^ I suspect it's because developers make more money building and selling more and smaller units than less but larger ones.
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  29. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Should a developer just take a risk, and assume that people will want 900-1200 sqft 3 bdrm apartments in the Quarters?
    Not yet. But if the city sticks to its guns, in 20-30 years that wouldn't be such a stretch.

    I don't know what will kick off the quarters area. It's a real chicken-and-egg scenario right now - nobody wants to build/move there because there's nothing really there yet, and there's nothing really there yet because nobody wants to build/move there right now.

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    I never said there was demand here. And I didn't limit it to downtowns, I said urban areas (outside of houses)...so for us this could include Oliver, Rossdale, Glenora, the North Edge, McCauley, and the Quarters.

    Obviously the Quarters probably won't appeal to families, but I think Oliver or the North Edge would be perfect. I have seen young families in Oliver told they had to move out, even though they didn't want to. They ended up fleeing to the suburbs. That's another thing we need to stop.

    Families in cores add to the vibrancy and diversity of an area filled with young adults, seniors, yuppies, hipsters, university folk, whatever.

    We just need to promote it, and try to convince people that downtown living is good, and while we can't force them, we can definitely get them to gain another perspective. Overall this will increase the number of families downtown. There are other methods too.

    If we didn't try to promote/create awareness then nobody would care/think about suburban sprawl, HIV/AIDS, Swine Flu in México, child labour, starvation in Africa, Indian slums, mines in Bosnia, etc. etc.
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  31. #131

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    I'd like to know how the Quarters won't appeal to families, but Oliver or the North Edge will or does? This logic is failing me, as I dont really see the difference between the 3.

    Families aren't going to move downtown/core areas because they are fighting suburban sprawl, they'll move their because they like the closeness and the options available in the area.

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    OK Billy, now run outside and play with the needles/condoms/drug addicts/hookers/vagrants/drunks. Not too appealing.

    The Quarters as it is, is a steaming mass of crap. Some of that crap walks on two legs. It will be a long time before it approaches Oliver, if it ever does.

    I agree with you there doesn't seem to be many families wanting to move into the downtown core, especially the Quarters. As a poster pointed out in a slightly different context above, there's no facilities because nobody wants to have a family there, and there are no families because there aren't any facilities.

    I'm sure there are quite a few families that would be more than happy to live just about anywhere if it's affordable. The Quarters has some potential, but we have a long way to go. It might be a stretch to say we can make it great for families with small children. I wouldn't let my kids anywhere near that part of town. I don't even like to go there.

    I think the Quarters should perhaps aim for adult housing, including some of the social housing being discussed.
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    I keep wondering why the Quarters/Jasper East Block hasn't been developed. There has been plan after plan after plan, and it always seems to get to the concept stage and that's it. Especially the block between 97st and 96st has one of the best views in the entire city and it has remained empty for the most part. The Ukrainian museum is supposed to go there but I'm guessing funding is lacking.
    Now I know a few years ago the reputation of the area sucked for the most part, but as far as I can see it is comparitively cleaner now.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    I keep wondering why the Quarters/Jasper East Block hasn't been developed...
    it's no different than many similar areas in many other cities around the world in that regard. it sits under a main runway flight path for an airport. those are always the least desirable places to be which is why they attract the kinds of uses they do. that's why i smile when i hear people say there's no reason to close the airport until the quarters gets redeveloped - if they really want to see the quarters redeveloped they would be the first to call for the airport's closure.
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    ^don't see how it cannot be a mid rise neighbourhood, with a few around 20 storeys?
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    Default Tough Sell

    The Quarters district has been in decline for a very long time. Growing up in the 60s, 97th Street south of 103 Ave was a pretty vibrant area although certainly not upscale. When I used to work near there I could get cheap Chinese BBQ lunches, there was an A&W north of Army and Navy up til a few year ago and now even those meager amenities are gone. Certainly, condos along Jasper Ave overlooking the river valley should be a draw.

    There has to be some combination of development to anchor a revival of this area including businesses, perhaps something as simple as a Safeways or a Sobeys, or maybe even a big box store with ample parking. Not such original ideas I know but something along those lines might be helpful. Coupled with community facilities, maybe a swimming pool, hockey rink. Obviously, a new home for the Oilers would be a good start.

    Of course this begs the question, is there a sufficient critical mass of population that would move into the Quarters? Are Edmonton families more enamored with suburban living with their backyards than in an urban existence. Are there enough jobs in the downtown core to make living nearby viable? As others have pointed out, escaping the suburban sprawl might not be sufficient to attract residents there has to be services and amenities.
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    ^it works for 20,000 people in oliver. we don't need to be completely filled in our downtown to fill the quarters up.

    and we shouldn't accept a suburban styled safeway with lots of parking in what could be a very cool neighbourhood. we need to set high standards for this area to become amazing. even something like bridgeland would be great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmontonenthusiast View Post
    ^it works for 20,000 people in oliver. we don't need to be completely filled in our downtown to fill the quarters up.

    and we shouldn't accept a suburban styled safeway with lots of parking in what could be a very cool neighbourhood. we need to set high standards for this area to become amazing. even something like bridgeland would be great.
    I agree that Edmontonians shouldn't have to settle for parking lots, but I guess the question would be the sustainability of a walkin supermarket that relies only on local residents. Whatever the case, the ideal would be self contained neighborhood with amenities that locals can walk to. The key is making sure there are sufficient amenities in terms of businesses such as grocery stores and restaurants and recreational facilities. Any suggestions along those lines?

    I'm not familiar with the bridgeland concept. Any pointers or links?
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    Default Brainstorming

    I was brainstorming some ideas regarding kickstarting develoment of the Quarters.

    - converting the old Army & Navy into loft condos
    - putting in a supermarket at the old farmers market on 97st, I like the idea of serving the office workers in the law courts and Canada Place who can buy fresh produce at lunch or after work, sort of the way Europeans shop daily for fresh ingredients for their nightly meals.
    - obviously, condos along Jasper Ave between 97th and 93rd street are attractive given the views of the river valley
    - Restaurants along Jasper ave between 97th and 96th street with patio and 2nd floor views, a nightclub with an open air patio view of the river valley would be sweet
    - converting 96th street to a tree lined park is a no brainer, greenspace is essential
    - community facilities such as a swimming pool, hockey rink, indoor recreation, a skateboard park
    - the proposed arena across the street from the police station
    - any more?
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    Quote Originally Posted by norwoodguy View Post
    - putting in a supermarket at the old farmers market on 97st, I like the idea of serving the office workers in the law courts and Canada Place who can buy fresh produce at lunch or after work, sort of the way Europeans shop daily for fresh ingredients for their nightly meals.
    I believe that is now a EPS recruitment/training centre

    Quote Originally Posted by norwoodguy View Post
    - converting 96th street to a tree lined park is a no brainer, greenspace is essential
    Already in the plans, if I'm not mistaken
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    ^Yes the Armature. See North Park Blocks, Portland.

    I have a plan for what I'd do with the quarters underway, just wait a bit. I mean I understand what Norwood is getting at, but it shouldn't just be a community for the residents, but a place for all to come in and meet.
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  42. #142

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    Have you seen the plans for the Quarters yet EE?

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmontonenthusiast View Post
    ^Yes the Armature. See North Park Blocks, Portland.

    I have a plan for what I'd do with the quarters underway, just wait a bit. I mean I understand what Norwood is getting at, but it shouldn't just be a community for the residents, but a place for all to come in and meet.
    Yes, great idea.

    I didn't realize the old Farmer's Market was being used by the Police. At least it wasn't torn down and just made into a parking lot. Well, there's lots of property along 97th that could be converted into a supermarket that could serve the east end of downtown and areas like nearby as there really isn't much in the way of shops other than the ones in Chnatown. There is an Asian supermarket at 107th Ave and 97th St but it wouldn't compare to a trendy large well stocked supermarket. I like the idea of promoting local producers.

    Again, as others have pointed out, the Quarters is a large area and represents a major challenge to redevelop. I had a look on Google Maps last night and it appeared that the area bounded by 97th - 96th and Jasper - 103rd Ave was almost half composed of parking lots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Have you seen the plans for the Quarters yet EE?
    Yes, at least I think I have. I've seen pretty much all the stuff on the city website, why, is there a different spot too that has additional stuff? But really, considering this not a big 1 developer development like the Strathearn Heights revitalization, it wouldn't necessarily take to the same form as what the Quarters people envision. But I did take some inspiration from them, but there wouldn't be too many office towers. I really liked the idea of the Armature, so I definitely kept that in. Stuff like parks, etc. are probably the only things that are still able to be dicated, but not specific buildings/where they're placed. Or maybe I am just missing something - where someone can (NICELY) gladly correct me.
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    The area is under the EDC's purview so the City can definitely determine whether a building is appropriate to the vision.
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    So I wonder if there is any progress towards seeing something develloped for this communitiy. To me it is looking more and more like another plan to develop the area that will be filed away in the "nice plans that never got done" file.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    ^I've always said that this area of downtown will be one of the last to redevelop. There are many other properties that are much more appealing to redevelop.

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    When LRT fundings is approved and construction on it is scheduled to start, you will see this area start moving...

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    ^I agree, once LRT starts ripping through the neighborhood (in a good way), things could start up, just like the Strathearn TOD, VFTC, and SPR revitalization.
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    ^that will help...but I don't have my hopes up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    When LRT fundings is approved and construction on it is scheduled to start, you will see this area start moving...
    yeah, i dont think so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    When LRT fundings is approved and construction on it is scheduled to start, you will see this area start moving...
    yeah, i dont think so
    And why not?

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    In some ways I would really like to know what is holding back devellopers from this part of the downtown. The views are potentially great. It's close to Jasper ave as well as close to some major attractions. I wonder, could it be that whoever owns the lots around there are asking way too much?
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    "In some ways I would really like to know what is holding back devellopers from this part of the downtown."

    buyers
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    "In some ways I would really like to know what is holding back devellopers from this part of the downtown."

    buyers
    Well yes buyers but why does it seem that this area is being ignored.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    ^opportunity cost/risk.

    If you had $30,000,000.00 and wanted to build a condo tower would you do that there or say around the UofA/Whyte/Downtown.... or dare i say the burbs where there is obvious and immediate demand?
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^opportunity cost/risk.

    If you had $30,000,000.00 and wanted to build a condo tower would you do that there or say around the UofA/Whyte/Downtown.... or dare i say the burbs where there is obvious and immediate demand?
    I would think the relaxation on density restrictions would be an attractive sell - decreased land cost/door should make projects a little bit more appealing for both buyer/developer. What do you think?

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    ^yes, but land prices got quite inflated (3-4yrs ago) due to speculation I have been told and zoning is still very much dependent on the closure of one runway.
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    A little bit of bad news in that Hotel Equip and Supply is moving from their 96th Street and 102A Ave location to 137th Avenue in the Fall. The sad part of this is that they are a viable business that has been there forever. Not a group home like many of the other buildings. No news on what is happening with their building for the future either.
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    That space is a dump, they need a better building. Too bad they're not staying downtown though.
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    ^again true but for example why couldn't the Aurora development been built in the Quarters area instead of where it's planned to go.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    ^again true but for example why couldn't the Aurora development been built in the Quarters area instead of where it's planned to go.
    because the developers of the Aurora project assembled the land where they did....
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    Well hopefully something will happen in the Quarters before 2020. Maybe there is much more at stake with the arena district plan. If/when that project goes ahead hopefully that will get the aurora project underway which then will spur the Quarters to be developed.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    ^keep in mind how long Vancouver's DTES has taken to even begin a turn for the better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^opportunity cost/risk.

    If you had $30,000,000.00 and wanted to build a condo tower would you do that there or say around the UofA/Whyte/Downtown.... or dare i say the burbs where there is obvious and immediate demand?
    it's not just the cost of the land. whether you do your numbers "per door" or "per sq. ft.", the densities available downtown make downtown (and i will include oliver and the north edge and the quarters etc. in "downtown") land costs quite competitive with "the burbs". add the fact zoning is in place for most of downtown while it can take years in the u of a/whyte avenue for approvals makes downtown pretty attractive in comparision. furthermore, land cost is in fact a relatively minor development cost and because it is an up-front cost it is also an early known/fixed cost. the real issues in our market are sales velocity and pricing, not land costs. edmonton still struggles to reach market velocity at less than $400 psf and most of the product is geared to that market segment between $400 and $600 and we have virtually no mid-higher end product being built even though that is also the kind of product which can absorb even higher land prices. in comparision, coal harbour a block off the water is considered a bargain at $1,000 plus psf if you can find it because a block north on the water can easily be $1,500 plus psf.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    ^again true but for example why couldn't the Aurora development been built in the Quarters area instead of where it's planned to go.
    maybe for the same reason that you probably didn't go to school in bonny doon if your parents bought a house in castle downs and your kids probably won't go to school in mill woods if you bought a house in the grange.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor
    land cost is in fact a relatively minor development cost
    This is I think the thing that throws people. Land cost can't be much more than 10% of a typical condo project cost, if that. So it's not like a developer is going to jump on building a project in the Quarters because his overall project costs will be 5% less (land is half as much) than the identical building in the middle of Oliver, because that 5% cost difference is easily justified by the much better location. And it's not like there's a huge shortage of developable land throughout Edmonton's existing "downtown".

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    Ok, well then lets focus in a little bit. Jasper east block between the Hardware Grill and the Flatiron building. The view is great, it is next to the convention center, 1 1/2 blocks from Winspear and Citadel, on good bus routes, right next to the river valley, etc.... I've always wondered, even long before the Quarters idea why this block has been avoided.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    ^+ historical charm and decent density (ie little empty lots or parking lots).
    ----

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    Ok, well then lets focus in a little bit. Jasper east block between the Hardware Grill and the Flatiron building. The view is great, it is next to the convention center, 1 1/2 blocks from Winspear and Citadel, on good bus routes, right next to the river valley, etc.... I've always wondered, even long before the Quarters idea why this block has been avoided.
    No idea. Keep in mind that it's up to individual property owners to develop or not develop a given lot. You'd have to find out who owned what property and ask them personally. Some might be business decisions, like they have a development in mind but are waiting for the right market conditions. I'd wager that many, though, have little to do with economic feasibility and much more to do with different issues that are relevant to each landholder. Some might be very old and not interested in doing anything but sitting on their land, for example. Some might be busy working on other holdings. Without polling each owner, it's tough to say what needs to be done to get things rolling on a specific lot or area.

    All the city can do is set up a framework and incentives to coax things along, but at the end of the day it's up to the individuals or companies that own the land to make the decision to develop it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    All the city can do is set up a framework and incentives to coax things along, but at the end of the day it's up to the individuals or companies that own the land to make the decision to develop it.
    Yet the city has done exactly the opposite of providing an incentive. The framework-- the highly publicized revitalization plan-- just encourages slumlords to sit on their land and speculate, instead of taking a risk on development.

    IMO this is the worst approach the city could have taken if they want the area to be developed. A master plan like this only works if the planner owns the land and is able to build it out in the manner they proposed (a la century park). What they should have done is quietly made whatever little zoning amendments were needed, and then let the market take care of the rest. I also think moahunter's idea of making the area into a legit red light district would speed along the gentrification process. Rents drop (or stay low), the 'funky' cohort moves in, the area becomes cool, and gradually becomes ripe for development. Classical model of gentrification-- observed in every major city EVER. It works for neighbourhoods.

    The revitalization plan has created a bubble, which is why I can almost guarantee we will see little to no action on the quarters for the next 10-15 years-- it will take that long for the landowners to forget about the redevelopment plan that was supposed to fetch them high prices for their worthless buildings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    All the city can do is set up a framework and incentives to coax things along, but at the end of the day it's up to the individuals or companies that own the land to make the decision to develop it.
    Yet the city has done exactly the opposite of providing an incentive. The framework-- the highly publicized revitalization plan-- just encourages slumlords to sit on their land and speculate, instead of taking a risk on development.

    IMO this is the worst approach the city could have taken if they want the area to be developed. A master plan like this only works if the planner owns the land and is able to build it out in the manner they proposed (a la century park). What they should have done is quietly made whatever little zoning amendments were needed, and then let the market take care of the rest. I also think moahunter's idea of making the area into a legit red light district would speed along the gentrification process. Rents drop (or stay low), the 'funky' cohort moves in, the area becomes cool, and gradually becomes ripe for development. Classical model of gentrification-- observed in every major city EVER. It works for neighbourhoods.

    The revitalization plan has created a bubble, which is why I can almost guarantee we will see little to no action on the quarters for the next 10-15 years-- it will take that long for the landowners to forget about the redevelopment plan that was supposed to fetch them high prices for their worthless buildings.
    your "classical model of gentrification--ovserved in every major city EVER. It works for neighbourhoods" won't work for the quarters. for it to work it needs density, even if - or even particularly if - it is unoccupied density. the quarters however, has virtually no density at all. that is why it needs a large dose of the new development the city is trying to encourage instead of being left alone. neighborhoods with buildings will gentrify. those with vacant land will simply stagnate.
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    You really can't call the quarters a neighbourhood, which is why neighbourhood revitalization doesn't work.

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    The "Liberty Quarters" in Edmonton (9342 103 Ave) currently has a condo for rent at approx $2,500 per month.

    The Liberty is pretty much an uninspiring brutalist style building with the interior refurbiushed in order to bring the essence of Manhatton to Edmonton (note: no such essence exists at this site).

    Who ever would willingly pay such a price to live in this area is either insane or the best damn bottle collector Edmonton has ever seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    your "classical model of gentrification--ovserved in every major city EVER. It works for neighbourhoods" won't work for the quarters. for it to work it needs density, even if - or even particularly if - it is unoccupied density. the quarters however, has virtually no density at all. that is why it needs a large dose of the new development the city is trying to encourage instead of being left alone. neighborhoods with buildings will gentrify. those with vacant land will simply stagnate.
    If you look other cities though, the poor downtown neighborhoods go through stages towards being wealthy (if that is what we consider is the best thing to achieve here). They start as nothing. They gain some commerce, it might be seedy commerce, red light, student accommodation, arts based. They start to become trendy in an edgy way, people go to nightclubs there, restaurants, edgy performances. Land prices start to go up, it gets more trendy to live there, and eventually the poor people get priced out and it becomes another bland community (gentrification), for the process to start again somewhere else.

    We can't go from nothing, to full gentrification in one step, it just won't happen (which is what we see). Right now, the quarters is about as low as can be. The next step up, IMO, is to liberalize the area, to promote arts, adult fun, and low cost student accommodation. It needs to build up a vibe from what is there (as little as that is). A drafting board yuppie dream isn't cool, won't be invested in, and simply won't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris83 View Post
    Who ever would willingly pay such a price to live in this area is either insane or the best damn bottle collector Edmonton has ever seen.
    Actually the area directly around this building is quite nice, and the houses across the street are beautifully kept:

    [GMAP]<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Edmonton, +Division+No.+11,+Alberta&amp;ll=53.54726,-113.478566&amp;spn=0,359.995977&amp;t=h&amp;z=18&a mp;layer=c&amp;cbll=53.547232,-113.478708&amp;panoid=GP7_Zn-vKIxx1bN3zcZFWA&amp;cbp=12,114.98,,0,4.04&amp;sour ce=embed&amp;output=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Edmonton, +Division+No.+11,+Alberta&amp;ll=53.54726,-113.478566&amp;spn=0,359.995977&amp;t=h&amp;z=18&a mp;layer=c&amp;cbll=53.547232,-113.478708&amp;panoid=GP7_Zn-vKIxx1bN3zcZFWA&amp;cbp=12,114.98,,0,4.04&amp;sour ce=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>[/GMAP]

    Wander much further, though, and it's more sketchville.

    Having said that, this building is one of the most ridiculous condo conversions ever.
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    ^
    I would have never guessed that there would be such well-kept houses hidden back there. Cudos to you and google streetview.

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    Default NO WAY!!!!! lol

    Quote Originally Posted by RTA View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris83 View Post
    Who ever would willingly pay such a price to live in this area is either insane or the best damn bottle collector Edmonton has ever seen.
    Actually the area directly around this building is quite nice, and the houses across the street are beautifully kept:

    [GMAP]<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Edmonton, +Division+No.+11,+Alberta&amp;ll=53.54726,-113.478566&amp;spn=0,359.995977&amp;t=h&amp;z=18&a mp;layer=c&amp;cbll=53.547232,-113.478708&amp;panoid=GP7_Zn-vKIxx1bN3zcZFWA&amp;cbp=12,114.98,,0,4.04&amp;sour ce=embed&amp;output=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Edmonton, +Division+No.+11,+Alberta&amp;ll=53.54726,-113.478566&amp;spn=0,359.995977&amp;t=h&amp;z=18&a mp;layer=c&amp;cbll=53.547232,-113.478708&amp;panoid=GP7_Zn-vKIxx1bN3zcZFWA&amp;cbp=12,114.98,,0,4.04&amp;sour ce=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>[/GMAP]

    Wander much further, though, and it's more sketchville.

    Having said that, this building is one of the most ridiculous condo conversions ever.
    THIS is the street I grew up on!!!!( dad as well )
    OH the stories I could tell lol
    I'm floored that somebody picked this street as an example!
    Thank you for your selection...
    In 1966 this street had well cut lawns in front of all the houses ( with a couple exceptions) the ashphalt sidewalks were awsome for riding my bicycle on... so smooth!
    We moved away from this street in about 1979 and it was still not that bad,the York was too far away ( stumbling distance ).
    The house we were living in was purchased with most of the houses on the block by somebody with deep pockets that had intended to level all of them for an apartment ( probably what went up accross the street from our house) and as it turned out they ended up putting houses there to replace the houses (?)
    If anybody that lives there is reading this I buried a mark 10 tobacco can full of hotwheels under the dirt floor of our garage as a kid,probably worth a fortune now! lol

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    There is actually a pretty nice little condo development along Jasper and 93rd as well that has some main floor commercial space.

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    Hopefully this happens sooner than later. Good to see movement on this plot of land.


    Feds, city mull future of Grierson jail

    Mayor sees land ripe for redvevelopment, but place to put prisoners undecided

    By Gordon Kent, Edmonton Journal

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...900/story.html
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    people should focus on redevelopment in edmonton only and we do not need to copycat any other city over the quarters projects
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    people should focus on redevelopment in edmonton only and we do not need to copycat any other city over the quarters projects
    This is in Edmonton... WTF are you talking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    people should focus on redevelopment in edmonton only and we do not need to copycat any other city over the quarters projects
    This is in Edmonton... WTF are you talking about?

    I am talking about getting ideas for the quarters and we do not need other cities's idea . so do not jump to conclusion
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    ^you are seriously out of touch dude.

    We very much need to look at other cities to see what works, what doesn't, and what would be appropriate for us to consider.
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    ^The ignore function works wonders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by booster View Post
    Hopefully this happens sooner than later. Good to see movement on this plot of land.


    Feds, city mull future of Grierson jail

    Mayor sees land ripe for redvevelopment, but place to put prisoners undecided

    By Gordon Kent, Edmonton Journal

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...900/story.html
    I really think that if this location were to be transformed into something that the general public can visit it would draw more people to the area and paint a better picture for the area. Unfortunately for understandable reasons jails are not the first choice for a neighbor when looking for a place to live or work. I actually wonder if the jail has been one of the many reasons why we haven't seen as much development in this area as we could have seen.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post

    I really think that if this location were to be transformed into something that the general public can visit it would draw more people to the area and paint a better picture for the area. Unfortunately for understandable reasons jails are not the first choice for a neighbor when looking for a place to live or work. I actually wonder if the jail has been one of the many reasons why we haven't seen as much development in this area as we could have seen.
    I used to live very close to the Grierson and quite enjoyed having them as neighbors. The grounds were well maintained, they held community BBQs every summer, if you ever had a complaint there was always someone willing to help you resolve the problem. They were a much better neighbour than some I have had in the past.

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    The jail has got to go and I find it troubling to learn that a lot of the land owners live outside of Edmonton.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post

    I really think that if this location were to be transformed into something that the general public can visit it would draw more people to the area and paint a better picture for the area. Unfortunately for understandable reasons jails are not the first choice for a neighbor when looking for a place to live or work. I actually wonder if the jail has been one of the many reasons why we haven't seen as much development in this area as we could have seen.
    I used to live very close to the Grierson and quite enjoyed having them as neighbors. The grounds were well maintained, they held community BBQs every summer, if you ever had a complaint there was always someone willing to help you resolve the problem. They were a much better neighbour than some I have had in the past.
    The problem is though, try telling that to someone moving into the neighborhood. No matter what you would say that person is more likely to prejudge the jail, which in a lot of ways you can't blame them, the inmates are there for breaking the law.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Mount Royal Hotel purchased and shutdown

    EDMONTON - The closure of the final watering hole on the 96th Street "drag" has sounded the last call for what was once one of Edmonton's most violent neighbourhoods.

    The Mount Royal Hotel was bought by the city May 1 for the Quarters redevelopment of east downtown, a $1.9-million purchase that includes several empty lots behind the three-storey building, officials confirmed Friday.

    Although a handful of long-term tenants remain in the vinyl-clad structure at 10220 96th St., the bar and liquor store are no longer in business.
    At one time, cafes and four big taverns between 102nd Avenue and 104th Avenue kept police hopping almost every night.

    But the Empire Hotel was torn down in 1998, the International Hotel joined it three years later and the York Hotel was purchased by the city and closed at the end of March.

    Now only about a dozen buildings remain on the whole strip, and you can't buy a drink until 111th Avenue.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  91. #191
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    I think that it will take time for people's thinking to change about this area, something like 118 Avenue or downtown. If you haven't been there for a while, you'll still think of the old images of the area. People who see the crime at the library extrapolate that to all of downtown, despite the improvements that have taken place over the years.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  92. #192
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    there is another concern is people will go to transit hotel on fort road ?? this hotel is one of the oldest in Edmonton.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    there is another concern is people will go to transit hotel on fort road ?? this hotel is one of the oldest in Edmonton.
    No, it's not:

    The original Royal Hotel apparently burned down in the late 1940s and was rebuilt, she said.

  94. #194
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    transit hotel is over 90 yrs old and haven't changed much at all
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  95. #195
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    Fooling around various places and I came across this clip from Bath in the ÜK, While I know the climates are very different their are a few bits that I thought could be adapted in regards to The Quarters.

    The South Gate complex is primarily a shopping centre, it's use of pedestrian streets and human scaled structures appealed to me. I know The Quarters is a far more ambitious proposal but just the way it has kept the integrity of the streetscape I liked.

    I am thinking primarily of the remaining historic buildings along Jasper east of 97th that could be incorpoated in a likewise manner.

    just a thought. If things ever move along with it.

    www.southgatebath.com/media/flash/flythrough.html
    www.southgatebath.com/about-us/virtual-tour.aspx

    Still my favourite though is the possibility of something that Salt Lake is doing, very adaptable in regards to a "grid" street plan and sightly more compatable climes. the retractable roof is my favourite. And imagine a water feature cascading from say 94th or 95th streets through Louise McKinney Park. almost down to the river itself.

    www.downtownrising.com/city_creek/index.php
    Last edited by NielCole; 23-05-2010 at 08:19 PM.

  96. #196

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    ^You can't think of the quarters taking shape like a subdivision. The quarters plan is more of a guideline. Like calgary's east village, the Quarters will take Years to come to any type of fruition

  97. #197
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    I'm not thinking in terms of a subdivision but it definitely will need some osrt of nucleous or catalyst to to start. , Then have it organically grow over time.
    It will not happen in one shot but you need to start somewhere. One building here then another one 3 blocks away then another 2 blocks over will not provide enough inertia to get things started.

    there is too much derelict land that needs to be used, and if some sort of development were created along the obvious choice of Jasper Ave then it could over time grow back towards the other blocks

    The original post on this thread shows a very static pre planned district for the entire district. I'm advocating just to start in one section using the archtectural resources that remain as a basis for a new shopping/commercial/residential complex.

    It does not have to be as large as say Salt Lake but it could incorporate something along the same lines to attract residents and visitors.

  98. #198

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    ^which is why I think something like a UofA expansion and accompanying student housing would be perfect there. It needs a kick start with a group who are less "picky" than families are, and that kick start is more likely if it is a government type body.

  99. #199
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    This area would also be good for NAIT, MacEwan or Norquest students. The Quarters is a short LRT ride to any of these schools, and would give this area new vitality.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  100. #200

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