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Thread: Cycling Infrastructure | Discussion

  1. #101
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    Another issue rarely considered but also somewhat important is that bicycles are quiet. Stand (or, God forbid, live) beside, for example, the Yellowhead. Then try a bikepath. Which would you rather live next to?
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

  2. #102

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    Edmonton isn't ever going to be a pedestrian city, and it's not like a few more KM's of trail are going to make the fatties all change their behavior and cycle to work. Trails are great and need to be expanded, but $100M right here and now could provide many times greater benefit to the masses if used to upgrade roadway infrastructure or public transit.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  3. #103
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    I think while bikepaths are of great benefit, perhaps the highest priorities should be tackled if there are budget constraints for transportation.

    Perhaps bikers could have streets with a bike lane on collector roads where traffic is not that heavy. For example:

    North - 127 Avenue, 113 A Street
    West - 142 Street, 163 Street, 95 Avenue (to MacKinnon Ravine)
    East - 76 Avenue (intersects with Mill Creek), 95 Avenue, 79 Street,
    South - 28 Avenue, 105/106 Street
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  4. #104
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    I think it's a great idea. I already bike on (mostly) great paths, so it's not too likely that this will benefit me, but it's amazing how much safer and more comfortable it is biking year round on a dedicated path than on streets. I wouldn't be biking at this time of year if I didn't have paths (and other convenient off-arterial routes). I suspect that more people will see this as a viable option if a path goes even part of their way.

  5. #105

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    From the City Auditor`s report



    For every percentage point of user mode of travel we spend a certain amount of money.

    Car usage = $60M/percentage point
    Public Transit usage = $495M/percentage point
    Walking & Biking = $17M/percentage point

    Investing $100 million towards biking paths/walkways results in more than three times the return in investing in roads and 29 times the return in investing in transit. Judging by the numbers, the $100 million investment is sound fiscal and environmental policy.

    City Hall is on the right path!
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  6. #106
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    Thanks for the info PRT.

    Another important advantage to cycling versus driving is that it's far more affordable. For some, owning a car isn't an option - the price of the car, insurance, gas, parking, maintenance - I don't need to remind anyone how much it can cost. Many can't afford it, especially a lot of the new immigrants, students, and the working poor. I think this could really help those who can't afford a car to get around.

    It's also great for kids, obviously. I'd rather see them riding on the paths than on the roads.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'd still rather see $100M spent turning any one of the intersections on Yellowhead into an overpass, and can guarantee it would benefit a far greater portion of our population.
    So would you like them to do that at 10 million a year over 10 years? You will get your overpass eventually.

  8. #108
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    Thanks for that perspective Edmonton PRT. Good point!

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Edmonton isn't ever going to be a pedestrian city, and it's not like a few more KM's of trail are going to make the fatties all change their behavior and cycle to work.
    That's the spirit!
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  10. #110
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    I have fond memories of family day-long bike trips when I was a kid, so I'd support putting more money into bike trails. My girlfriend and I need to get out of the house and get more exercise, so I think I'll be buying bikes for both of us this year. Can't wait to hit the trails, especially since we bought a house in Mill Creek and are so close to them.

    Speaking of bikes and trails - do we have bike rentals in the city? I spent some time searching on Google, but I could only come up with the Red Bike program. I have a friend in LA that loves to cycle, and I want to get him up here for a visit, but he'd want to rent a bike and hit the trails.

    Gord

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Edmonton isn't ever going to be a pedestrian city, and it's not like a few more KM's of trail are going to make the fatties all change their behavior and cycle to work. Trails are great and need to be expanded, but $100M right here and now could provide many times greater benefit to the masses if used to upgrade roadway infrastructure or public transit.
    that's the spirit!

    perhaps more options, more trails, in conjunction with more advertising that they are there (plus maps etc.) would incrementally help.

    i like this kind of spending.
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  12. #112
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    ^ Yup. This money over 10 years is peanuts with huge potential benefits. Well-spent peanuts.
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  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Just wondering - why can't you use a bike to get to work? I'm aware there are a number of good reasons. But for many, it's perceived as unsafe, inconvenient, too difficult (as in cycling over difficult terrain or ice/snow never cleared in winter), or there's too many barriers/too much traffic.
    For some reason I felt like responding to this tiny part of the discussion.
    I used to ride my bike to work, but I also stopped at the gym (only a couple of blocks from work) and worked out and showered before putting on my office clothes. Days I did not go to the gym I didn’t ride my bike because there was nowhere to shower and I don’t like putting clean clothes on after I have been sweating. The two or three blocks from the gym to work was fine, I didn’t sweat then.
    And my previous job was farther than I wanted to ride 2x a day (80 blocks).
    Also packing everything I needed (work cloths, lunch, etc) into a manageably sized bag was tricky (and often a bit wrinkly).
    And it was late spring, summer and early fall only deal. I know you can ride in the winter, and I am not overly worried about the terrain. It is the cold. I am a wuss, I admit it.

  14. #114
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    ^another good point. I know our workplace has a interior secure bike rack, shower, and storage which allows employees the ability to make biking to work viable. We need more workplaces taking such steps as well to encourage it.
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  15. #115

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    Thanks Iano. I forgot to mention the bike racks in the parkade across from the attendants hut. If it had been street lockup I wouldn't have done it, and might have reconsidered if it hadn't been by the attendant. Not that they really paid attention, but someone with bolt cutters would have been pretty obvious.

  16. #116
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    For fun you can listen to Full English Breakfast on CJSR on thursday mornings at 8:06, just after the BBC news, when they have the bicycle traffic report.

    It's pretty anecdotal but a good indication of how many people do indeed use their bikes to commute for work or school.

  17. #117

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    I say yes, Yes, YES to bike lanes and more bike infrastructure. Moving people around is more than just about cars and light-rail. It includes pedestrians and bikes. Most major cities now include those modes of transport in their transportation analysis, so it's time Edmonton gets there as well!

    BTW, if you want to see a real bike network in action, check out the video on Portland on the PBS website http://www.design-e2.com
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  19. #119

    Default Edmonton cyclists to lobby for $100M bike plan

    Edmonton cyclists to lobby for $100M bike plan

    By Andrea Sands, edmontonjournal.com
    March 1, 2009

    Cyclists are gearing up for action this week on a $100-million plan to make Edmonton more bicycle friendly.

    However, city councillors say they will first need to curb some of the costs.

    ďItís not inexpensive,Ē said Coun. Jane Batty, chair of the transportation and public works committee.

    ďFor $100 million, I donít think itís going to happen, but we have to do something to make the city more accessible for bicycles.Ē

    The committee will discuss the updated bicycle transportation plan Tuesday and hear from cyclists who want a firm commitment from councillors to implement the plan that has been in the works for years. The cityís current bike plan hasnít been updated since 1992.
    Link:
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Trave...342/story.html

  20. #120
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    I think Jane Batty is our best councillor. She doesn't sound particularly encouraging, but I trust her judgement.
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    Arrow Show your support @City Hall: March 3, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Cycle Edmonton: The Bicycle Transportation Plan

    VUE Weekly has printed an article about the cityís Bicycle Transportation Plan, which is being presented to the Transportation and Public Works Committee on Tuesday, March 3.

    Read about it in VUE (you can get all the details from the Cityís website), and then go attend the public meeting in-person to show your support for the plan. Bring your friends. If youíve never been to City Hall, consider it a civic experience. The meeting is in the River Valley Room of City Hall, and the bike plan is scheduled to be discussed at 1:30 pm on Tuesday, March 3 (agenda).

    If you want to go further, you can register as an individual to present to the committee on the proposed bike plan. Register to speak by visiting edmonton.ca/bikeplan.
    From http://www.edmontonbikes.ca/index.ph...ortation_plan/

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    Has anyone here ever attended a City Hall meeting to show support for/against an issue? If so, how does it work? Do you clap and cheer when you hear something you like, or is the meeting quiet? Is the only way to show support by registering to speak?

  23. #123
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    I think just by being there you will be helping. I wish I could be there, but I'm home with the flu.

    $100M is a lot of money. I think it is better to sell it as $10M per year. It's still a lot of money. I've printed off the plan, but I haven't been up to going over it. My bad.

    I believe this is important. It could potentially go a long way toward shifting the habits of very many people. We need to make Edmonton a bike friendly city.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    I went to a Transportation Master Plan open house and have looked at the plans a while back and I really liked what I saw. Many new on-road bike lanes and some new connections between already existing bike paths is what I remember, but I'd have to review to give any more detail!

    I hope you feel better soon, Jimbo!

  25. #125

    Default Edmonton bike plan not that costly, says cycling councillor Don Iveson

    Edmonton bike plan not that costly, says cycling councillor

    By Gordon Kent, edmontonjournal.com
    March 3, 2009 11:19 AM


    Coun. Don Iveson rode his bicycle to work Tuesday morning to publicize his support for a proposed $100- million plan to expand Edmontonís cycling network.

    The scheme, scheduled to be debated Tuesday by councilís transportation and public works committee, includes widening curb lanes, expanding the multi-use trail system, putting bike racks on all buses and improving signs over the next decade.

    Iveson regularly rides to City Hall in the summer from his home south of the University of Alberta, but said he hasnít made the 25-minute trip in winter before.
    Link:
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...605/story.html

  26. #126
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    That's one weird bike he's riding there. Good for him! I hope Councillor Iveson can convince the rest of council this isn't really much money when the benefits are considered. And, as many posters here are only too aware, I'm not exactly known for spending freely.

    This plan, if implemented, could go a long way toward improving the health and vitality of future generations of Edmontonians, who may well come to consider cycling as a normal way to get around, rather than an alternative. There are too many benefits to mention. I applaud the city for it's foresight on this issue.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

  27. #127
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    I find it amusing that people have a problem spending $10M a year over 10 years on something that tackles some serious social problems that have received widespread media coverage over the past decade... i.e. obesity and the environment.

  28. #128
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    I find it discouraging, but I hear you. The potential benefits are substantial, significant, and have real lasting impact on the lives of people that live here. And we need to remember, it's not all just for cyclists, it's for pedestrians too.

    Obesity is all around me where I work. I've been approached by co-workers asking about bike commuting (I do it year round), but inevitably they say they're too scared of the traffic. And they should be. I can't count the number of times I've had people speed by me within inches, even when they had free lanes open beside them. They don't realize that one pothole, and I could be swerving out that few inches. That's why I sometimes take the middle of the lane, rather than the far right, so they can't squeeze past.

    My ride would be far easier if the bike paths that are already there were, ever, cleared in winter. It's obviously not a priority. I do appreciate that the High Level and 110st paths are cleared regularly. But the Saskatchewan Drive path can get very little attention, and the bike path along 104st between Whyte and Argyll is impassable for long stretches to all but a hardy few crazy riders (including me a few times). NEVER been cleared.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 03-03-2009 at 03:19 PM.
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    Nice to see some very supportive comments under that article.
    Strathcona City Separatist

  30. #130
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    I still don't see how well putting bike racks on busses will work. Not an issue at all for me. I'll never use them, ever.

    I suspect they won't be used much, but maybe it's one of those things where, when you need it, you NEED it. I dunno.
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    I see people using the bike racks on buses quite frequently during the summer months.

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    i only support this if they mean to use the money to build bikepaths only(for now) in central locations. imo bike paths that go to the farthest of flung urbs are almost completely a waste of money. get all the central paths connected and then expand.

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    ^you are wise, richardw. Of course that means it will be done the complete opposite way.
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  34. #134
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    I agree with richardW. I hope they concentrate on central areas first, then move towards the suburbs. I'm glad to see that the multi-use trails beside the LRT extension to the south of the city can be used by bikers.

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    I see people using the bike racks on buses quite frequently during the summer months.
    Really? I've never seen it, and I've been looking. I've seen bikes on the LRT. I guess I haven't been looking at the same routes. I'd like to hear some statistics.

    Just because I can't see ever using it, and can barely understand why anyone would, doesn't mean others don't have very good reasons. Maybe the bus goes a long way, and it's too far to ride, but riding to and from the bus stops is reasonable? Maybe it's weather dependant? Maybe someone gets a flat or breaks down? For me, it defeats the purpose.

    I don't know the scale, the cost, or the potential usage of this particular aspect, so don't really have a feel for it.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 03-03-2009 at 03:57 PM.
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  36. #136
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    Not all routes have bike racks on the front of the buses... so that might be why you have never noticed them. I often see people using the bike racks on the number 1 route, but again, mostly during summer months.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    i only support this if they mean to use the money to build bikepaths only(for now) in central locations. imo bike paths that go to the farthest of flung urbs are almost completely a waste of money. get all the central paths connected and then expand.
    I take it you don't ride, or live in the burbs. Obviously a bike path to nowhere isn't a great use of money, but I don't think that's remotely what being proposed here.

    I think connecting the central bike path system is indeed the first step. That's not a big deal, really. But it needs to serve as much of Edmonton as possible to be fair and effective, just as roadways do (though obviously not as extensive as roadways). And it's not just about where people live, it's about where their destinations are, including work.

    Lots of people live in Millwoods, for example (and there is a great path now that goes there). Maybe in some areas, it has more to do with dedicated bike lanes on existing roadways.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 03-03-2009 at 03:59 PM.
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    If you look at the draft plan, page 42, it shows the first phase that appears to improve the 102 Ave. corridor, build a 142 St. and 82 St. corridor, and several more in the south-central section of the city including improvements on 109 St., and in the University, Garneau, and Old Strathcona areas.

    Fear not, the inner city is being serviced well by the first phase, even more so by the second phase.
    Last edited by RTA; 03-03-2009 at 05:52 PM.
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    I attended the meeting at City hall and there were 10 public speakers all in support of this plan. Some of the items mentioned were:
    1. Many Edmontonians don't feel safe riding bikes on the current streets
    2. People currently buy bike racks so they can drive their bikes to the river valley to ride them
    3. A bikeable city is a big tourist draw
    4. Having people bike to work would help them get their 30-60 recommended minutes of exercise per day
    5. Environmental benefits: reduced greenhouse gases, better air quality in the city
    6. Cycling is the 4th most desired activity of individuals, so it's a popular thing to do for recreation
    7. Other cities that have built cycling infrastructure (including northern ones like Montreal that have snow like us) have demonstrated that when infrastructure is built, people use it and the number of people bicycling increases.

    The big question brought up was "where is the money coming from".

  40. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Escondido View Post
    I attended the meeting at City hall and there were 10 public speakers all in support of this plan. Some of the items mentioned were:
    1. Many Edmontonians don't feel safe riding bikes on the current streets
    2. People currently buy bike racks so they can drive their bikes to the river valley to ride them
    3. A bikeable city is a big tourist draw
    4. Having people bike to work would help them get their 30-60 recommended minutes of exercise per day
    5. Environmental benefits: reduced greenhouse gases, better air quality in the city
    6. Cycling is the 4th most desired activity of individuals, so it's a popular thing to do for recreation
    7. Other cities that have built cycling infrastructure (including northern ones like Montreal that have snow like us) have demonstrated that when infrastructure is built, people use it and the number of people bicycling increases.

    The big question brought up was "where is the money coming from".
    Thanks for the synopsis!

    Re: Numbers 1-7 -- you bet!

    Yeah, it always comes down to the money despite the savings that could be amassed in the programs and services in 1-7.

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    Oh, one interesting idea was to have bike paths in the summer, and turn them into skating paths in the winter. I kinda like this idea... what could be more fun than skating to work? And in this city, it's actually possible. Why not take advantage of our cold winters somehow... I think I'd be more partial to skating than biking in the winter!

    And my thought that I wished I could have shared on the bike racks on busses (there were concerns that they weren't being used) is that as a biker, why would I want to take the #1 or #9 if I have a bike? Biking is much faster than riding those busses. I think if bike racks were put on expresses such as #100 and #16 then they are more useful to me. Having bike access on the LRT is also very useful to a biker.
    Last edited by Escondido; 03-03-2009 at 05:56 PM.

  42. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Escondido View Post
    Oh, one interesting idea was to have bike paths in the summer, and turn them into skating paths in the winter. I kinda like this idea... what could be more fun than skating to work? And in this city, it's actually possible. Why not take advantage of our cold winters somehow... I think I'd be more partial to skating than biking in the winter!

    That is an interesting idea. I would be afraid that the boo birds will comment about the inevitable potholes that need fixing, worrying about upkeep for skating paths and liability issues.

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    I ride on those paths in the winter, so obviously I'm not a fan of that idea, though I like that kind of brainstorming.

    If the city could clear the paths in winter, and if there were enough of them that people wouldn't have to spend time on the streets, I'm sure a lot of people would continue to ride (and walk) throughout the winter. It's possible now, but hard enough to do that unless your skills are good and you're in pretty good shape it might not be a reasonable choice.

    Y'know, you don't get cold if you're dressed reasonably. In fact overheating because of too much clothes, or freezing in your own sweat because you wore a cotton base layer are bigger problems.

    Riding in the winter is even more fun than riding during the summer, IMO.
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  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Riding in the winter is even more fun than riding during the summer, IMO.
    You have an interesting sense of "fun". I've had entirely enough of the brown sludge and half-baked attempts at snow clearing that plague winter cyclists in Edmonton.

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    Yeah that brown sludge, I call it "cookie dough", can be a nightmare. It packs down on top of the slippery road surface (which is usually hard packed snow and ice and ruts), and breaks apart when I ride over it, sometimes sending me fishtailing. It's the most dangerous part of the ride. Especially for me, as I'm on a big cyclocross bike, I'm tall with a high centre of gravity, and I'm clipped in. I haven't fallen on it yet, but if it looks like there's a lot of it, or if there's lots of traffic, I take the sidewalk.

    The other challenge is staying up when on bike paths that are never, or rarely cleared. The path can be only about 1 foot wide, and has been made by bikes riding and pedestrians walking, so it's all hard divots and ruts. I can really bounce around, and it's hard to avoid the ruts which can take the bike off in another direction. Very hard on the arms, hands, and wrists, but I enjoy it like a sport.

    Strangely, it's the challenge of riding in those conditions that I enjoy. There's something about being totally focused on the task, and the three feet in front of you, that gives almost a zen-like, 100% in-the-moment experience. I also like the sheer physical challenge and the exercise. But it's that very challenge that likely keeps many away from cycling, and, hopefully, what the city addresses with this plan.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 04-03-2009 at 09:40 AM.
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  46. #146
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    Default Bike Month 2009

    June is bike month, I believe. My mother gets a day. My bike gets a month.

    Great website at http://www.bikeology.ca/

    It's a beautiful day outside, so quickly, before I hit the bike, here are some of my thoughts regarding biking in Edmonton.

    I'd like to see more Edmontonians choose bikes as their primary commuting option. I talk to a lot of people who'd consider it except for safety risks. They aren't as concerned with "bad drivers" as they are with their own abilities - negotiating potholes, sewer grates, gravel on turns, traffic behind you you can't see, cars whizzing past inches away, etc. They don't want to make a mistake and end up hit by a car. Who would?

    Riding on many roads isn't an option for these people. It's a lot of people. Well maintained paths to many destinations is the way to go if we want to get these people to consider commuting by bike.

    Many people won't change, and accept the costs of driving everywhere. They become set in their ways, and don't feel like changing. I'm set in my ways too, in my 50's, only my "ways" include commuting by bike. I got into the habit. Thanks to some excellent bike paths, getting to and from work is possible, and fast, without much "road time". If it wasn't for the paths there's no way I could have commuted through winter. Hopefully next year they're maintained year round, though the adventure of riding on snow covered ice filled with ruts was fun in it's own way. I think the number of cyclists who commute year-round caught many by surprise, and I'm sure a lot more would do it if the paths were better.

    I'm encouraged to see attention paid to developing and maintaining the bike paths in Edmonton. More paths would make it possible for more people to get in the habit, and stay in the habit of commuting by bike. Bikes are the natural first commuting option for most of us growing up, because we start before we can drive. If kids riding their bikes now stay on their bikes, because bike paths enable them to get to schools, jobs, friends, etc, without risks associated with the roads, we'll all be better off down the road (pun intended), even drivers. Many people who talk to me about commuting remember how much they loved riding a bike as a kid and into adulthood. Maybe some of them would consider taking it up again if they felt it was safer.

    Another problem that comes up in conversation is mature adults looking ridiculous dressed in cycling gear. I wish I could come up with a solution to that dilemma. With my camera attached and wearing all black, I look like I'm on the swat team. Except when the crotch of my riding pants gets hooked on the horn of my seat and yanks my pants halfway down to China when I sit down. Try paying attention to traffic when that happens. Right now, I just pretend I don't look silly, and act as if I'm the one who's got it goin' on.
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    I like your post Jimbo and I agree with most of what you have posted. I am originally from Edmonton but moved to Halifax last year to attend school. In the process I sold my car and bought a bike partly to save a lot of money and also because it's a great way to stay in shape and I really enjoy cycling. Halifax, like Edmonton, has some bike paths but cycling remains dangerous because many paths are not connected and it is necessary to navigate high volume intersections without proper lanes for bicycles.

    I have managed to cycle every month of the year but I have had many close calls in traffic due to drivers turning right in front of me or doors suddenly opening into bike lanes. I don't want to get into the whole car vs. bike debate because there are culprits on both sides. However, I think a great solution to improving cycling safety is to separate the cyclists from the traffic with barriers, much like they do in many European cities and a growing number of major US cities and some Canadian cities. Vancouver has just blocked off a lane on one of their bridges for bikes and Toronto has recently announced that they will be converting one lane on a five lane road for bicycles.

    Edmonton has some dedicated lanes for cyclists but I think more dedicated bike lanes separated from traffic are needed to improve cycling safety and encourage more people to consider cycling as a form of transportation. It requires some political will and public support but I think it has potential to make Edmonton a great city by encouraging active transportation.

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    If the city implements the bicycle lane recommendations made by Stantec, those would be significant, wide-sweeping changes for the city. Too bad the city didn't get Federal Infrastructure money for that plan - I would have liked new bike paths over the NE LRT Extension to Gorman.

    As far as my preference, I prefer on-street bike lanes so that cyclists can cross intersections with traffic rather than having to dismount at pedestrian crossings for commuting. Of course for recreation, let me loose in the river valley to get away from traffic!

    Here's a link for Bike Month: http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...009/14681.aspx

    Here's a link for the Stantec Bike Plan: http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio...an-update.aspx

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    Now Toronto is looking to join in the bike system revolution. Geez and here in Etown we are still studying the studies to connect roads and trails. We should just talk to the Public Bike System Company to get them to locate here.

    http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tran...-out-next-year
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    Actually a lot of it is already connected here is a map from 2007, black and red are bike trails not on a road
    http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio...eb_nolinks.pdf

    You can find more detailed info here;
    http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio.../bike-map.aspx

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    Toronto's newest bicycle lanes ó the controversial Jarvis Street project ó officially opened on Monday.
    Jarvis was famous as the only street in Toronto that had a reversible middle lane ó southbound during the morning commute and northbound in the evening.
    But the fifth lane is now gone. There are now two lanes running in each direction, along with two bicycle lanes.
    "It's the first time I've used it today but I'll be able to use it a lot more ... this is a good route," said cyclist Peter Amenta.


    Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...#ixzz0upWBqu5s
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    We're getting some new Bike Lanes and Sharrows! Should be finished in a few weeks. Personally I can't wait to go for a ride and try these out.

    http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio.../sharrows.aspx

    Last edited by theblueskin; 12-08-2010 at 09:34 AM.

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    Good stuff. I really like sharrows, and unlike segregated bikelanes they're also pretty useful in the winter (even if they're half-buried in snow).

    And this is a pretty good example of why I like them:


    (from the city)

    That lane is huge, and there's plenty of space for both bikes and motorvehicles to coexist. Without that sharrow though, many drivers will just naturally drive down the middle of the gigantic lane, or even hug the curb. Sharrows provide a gentle but constant and repeating visual reminder that it's a shared space.

    Personally, I think the city should add sharrows to all of the blue-signed bike routes. The current signs are a failure, because they don't really aid in cyclist wayfinding, and they don't act as a reminder to drivers that the lane should be shared.
    Last edited by newfangled; 12-08-2010 at 11:02 AM.

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    Ran into this picture on another blog of somebody parked in a parking lane... In England the word "tosser" is a profanity, one can look up it's definition online

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    Today, I couldn't help but notice what appeared to be a city employee grinding away the newly painted sharrows on 38 ave, between 66 and 76 streets. What's with that? Why remove what was only recently added?

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    They were incorrectly installed the first time. Not located the correct distance from the curb.

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    An update on Quesnel bridge. The pedestrian/bike portion is delayed until Spring instead of its original schedule of Nov-2010. Reasoning given to me by transportation planners is they cannot pour the cement barriers on that side. Very weak reasoning (thought you could do cement with the right equipment as long as it wasn't brutally cold) but sadly we still live with an auto centric transportation department (LRT aside). Very disappointed since the Fort Edmonton bridge is still not open (although it should have been 1 year ago as well). Glad the city spent money on all their award winning plans for pedestrian friendly planning (sarcasm). Would rather have money spent on doing then writing a really nice paperweight for a plan.
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    ^ I sense a little frustration.

    I know there are some with the City who are committed to following through on this, but bike/pedestrian "roads" still aren't as high on the list of everyone's priorities as I believe they should be. I view the bike plan as an "everybody wins" situation. Especially 20 years from now. I'd go as far as to say we can't afford not to do it, though I've come to distrust that awkward phrase.

    Ten million a year doesn't sound like that much at all relative to the transporatation budget. I don't even know that it's enough, or what it includes. There's signage. Maintenance (snow plowing - the Calgary bike paths are often cleared before the streets, because it's so much easier and faster [and cheaper!]). Driver/Cyclist education.
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    Default Winter Cycling

    I love winter cycling.

    There's a place where "cyclists" and "bike commuters" part ways, generally, and that's regarding riding in winter. Lots of people I know, including cyclists, think I'm a little crazy for riding in the winter. Even crazier for enjoying it.

    I don't know how the others got started riding in winter, but I just basically told myself I'd keep riding if I felt like it, found it wasn't bad at all, and kept going right through to Spring.

    The other winter commuters will know what I mean. I've had a hard, cold, but immensely enjoyable (in hindsight) 1 hour ride to work in bad conditions, and felt good. Then, at lunch, I had to walk 2 blocks outside and thought I wasn't going to make it. I understand why people think it's crazy, but when you're riding in those conditions, you dress well, work hard, and stay warm.

    It's almost a Zen thing for me. Especially when my glasses fog up.

    It's important to me and the many others I see riding in the winter that the paths be cleared/groomed. That means if it snows today, I need the path cleared tomorrow morning. And, for about 50% of the paths I currently use, that is the case (though it wasn't as good last year as the previous one). One main path, along Gateway, has never been completely cleared at any time over the past two winters, and is for much of the winter impassable, with the only alternative a combination of road and sidewalks (some of which were also never cleared).

    It's much easier, and cheaper, and faster, to clear a path than a road. Obviously. Even easier, cheaper, and faster than clearing a sidewalk, because there's not a bunch of stuff in the way. I think one reason it's not as much of a priority as it should be is that many people, including many cyclists, still think it's crazy to ride in the winter, and that hardly anyone does it.

    Some think it's "crazy" (ie: risky) to commute by bike at all. That attitude's changing, generally. And, personally, I'm highly "risk-averse" (ie: chicken), and wouldn't be riding on the streets if I thought it was dangerous.

    When I ride up Lungbuster Hill listening to the crickets on a nice Summer day after a long ride through the ravine and river valley, see the exercisers in Ezio Farrone park, then come across a line of cars stuck waiting in traffic as I go blissfully gliding past I don't feel so crazy. Wintertime is a somewhat different experience. No crickets, for one thing.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 20-09-2010 at 11:58 AM.
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    Bike paths are a fine idea, but not entirely workable, especially in the winter months.

    Also, expecting people to bike from their houses in the depths of the suburban sprawl to their downtown offices is a bit much. You'd need either a way of fast tracking them (LRT), or find them homes closer to the office (increase urban density and revitalize mature neighbourhoods). Neither of those seem to be high on Mr Diotte's priorities.
    Last edited by kmusky; 20-09-2010 at 08:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmusky View Post
    Bike paths are a fine idea, but not entirely workable, especially in the winter months.

    Also, expecting people to bike from their houses in the depths of the suburban sprawl to their downtown offices is a bit much. You'd need either a way of fast tracking them (LRT), or find them homes closer to the office (increase urban density and revitalize mature neighbourhoods). Neither of those seem to be high on Mr Diotte's priorities.
    People with homes in mature neighbourhoods need bike paths too. Many here would argue (and have argued) that they are entirely workable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOA View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kmusky View Post
    Bike paths are a fine idea, but not entirely workable, especially in the winter months.

    Also, expecting people to bike from their houses in the depths of the suburban sprawl to their downtown offices is a bit much. You'd need either a way of fast tracking them (LRT), or find them homes closer to the office (increase urban density and revitalize mature neighbourhoods). Neither of those seem to be high on Mr Diotte's priorities.
    People with homes in mature neighbourhoods need bike paths too. Many here would argue (and have argued) that they are entirely workable.
    They are workable... in mature neighbourhoods. But in outlying areas, like Mill Woods (where ward 11 is located), it's just not feasible.

    Considering the Mr. Diotte is running in an outlying ward, I'm curious why he is taking this stance. Selling bike paths in the middle of Honda Civic territory makes no sense to me.
    Last edited by kmusky; 22-09-2010 at 01:20 PM.

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    Don't the suburbs often contain children of some sort? Introducing them to and educating them about bikelanes early wouldn't be a bad idea.

    And as gets pointed out fairly often, not everyone works downtown. Live in Lewis Estates and work in the NW industrial area. Live in Goldbar and work on Roper Road. Live anywhere in Millwoods and work anywhere on the southside.

    It's only Honda Civic territory because it was built that way, but there's nothing stopping us from changing that. From a walkability standpoint a lot of neighbourhoods are undeniably doomed - no matter what you do, that 15 minute walk from nowhere to nowhere isn't going to get any easier. But biking is different, because it's on a scale that's much closer to that of cars. You can cover a pretty significant distance in a 15 minute bike ride.

    Back to Jimbo's comment, although I'm enjoying the improved weather we're having today, I too am looking forward to winter riding and have been since probably April. This last month of drizzle has really reminded me how glad I am to live somewhere with a real winter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmusky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JOA View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kmusky View Post
    Bike paths are a fine idea, but not entirely workable, especially in the winter months.

    Also, expecting people to bike from their houses in the depths of the suburban sprawl to their downtown offices is a bit much. You'd need either a way of fast tracking them (LRT), or find them homes closer to the office (increase urban density and revitalize mature neighbourhoods). Neither of those seem to be high on Mr Diotte's priorities.
    People with homes in mature neighbourhoods need bike paths too. Many here would argue (and have argued) that they are entirely workable.
    They are workable... in mature neighbourhoods. But in outlying areas, like Mill Woods (where ward 11 is located), it's just not feasible.

    Considering the Mr. Diotte is running in an outlying ward, I'm curious why he is taking this stance. Selling bike paths in the middle of Honda Civic territory makes no sense to me.
    I appreciate your view, but don't really agree. I ride to and from Oliver to Roper Road every workday all year. It takes me about 5 minutes longer than driving (about 30 mins, sometimes faster than driving if traffic is backed up) in summer. Winter can take more than an hour, but usually about 50 mins. I'm middle aged and not particularly healthy or athletic, so if I can do it, ...

    I work in that ward, and my partner is building a house in the south of the ward, so I could end up there in a year or so. I don't drive, and rely on my bike for commuting, year 'round. Believe me, they need paths in the area, just as much as any area, and because much of it is just being developed, we have an opportunity to do it right.

    I get frustrated that the cycling infrastructure, and even pedestrian infrastructure, is very much an afterthought most of the time in some newer developments (especially commercial). When we are building new roads, I wish we would put in extra wide multi-use sidewalks at the same time. A sidewalk at all would be nice.

    Often there is no sidewalk at all (like on the south side of Roper Road around 70 st, or for miles along 75 st), as if driving a car was the only way people ever go to work. There's something not right when I get dropped off by a bus and the only sidewalk is the ten feet (or so) at the stop, and no way to get anywhere in winter without trudging through deep snow for 30 feet to get to a cleared (hopefully) parking lot.

    I appreciate the extra wide outside lanes which allow for bikes, but we need to educate drivers, and cyclists, that it's the reason why they are there. The majority aren't aware that's the case.

    Much of the area still doesn't even have sidewalks. though I haven't checked out any routes south of Roper Road. 75 st is a nightmare for cycists, especially during winter - no sidewalk, narrow road, lots of traffic, high speeds, no sidewalk or even a dirt path, lots of trucks, no reasonable alternative route or "escape outlet", etc.

    It's the number 1 priority for me, for my own selfish reasons, and because I believe alternatives to the automobile are an essential component of our growth and progress as a modern city.
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    And in Toronto, bike lanes, etc are becoming a bit of a game changer as candidates seem to be vying for that set of votes.

    http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toro...ike-lanes?bn=1
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    It's only Honda Civic territory because it was built that way, but there's nothing stopping us from changing that. From a walkability standpoint a lot of neighbourhoods are undeniably doomed - no matter what you do, that 15 minute walk from nowhere to nowhere isn't going to get any easier. But biking is different, because it's on a scale that's much closer to that of cars. You can cover a pretty significant distance in a 15 minute bike ride.
    There's still not much that can be done about the roads that dead end or go in circles, short of tearing down the houses blocking the way from A to B. If the city can't grow a backbone and say tell the developers that the streets must go in straight lines and not dead end, we should at least insist that there be bicycle / pedestrian paths at every dead end or random corner to provide connectivity.

    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    Back to Jimbo's comment, although I'm enjoying the improved weather we're having today, I too am looking forward to winter riding and have been since probably April. This last month of drizzle has really reminded me how glad I am to live somewhere with a real winter.
    I hate the rain too, but roads and paths are much easier to ride on when they're wet than when they're covered in snow (or ice, or brown sludge).

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    OK, I've got the winter bike all ready, with my studded tires and new tubes, and lights, etc. But I see they've forecast rain, which freezes as soon as the sun goes down. That's when it get hairy, for me.

    Re: bike paths - apparently there was a plan to put in bike paths alongside the new LRT developments (which makes sense to me), but it's now been dropped, and instead, reportedly, there will be only a fragmented/segmented system that zigzags across the street, and stops for stretches, then starts again. If that's the way it's done, I'd just as soon stay on the road. It's safer than on and off riding.

    I'm not up on the details, so I'd appreciate any input.
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    ^ the downtown connector info from last week still shows east and west bike lanes on 102ave. But those stop when the tracks jog north to run through the AADAC building. West of there though, who knows? It would be easy enough to continue them west to 111st, and then do sharrows through Oliver. But that could be done today too, so...yeah.

    Jasper is also supposed to get bikelanes, but since "Jasper" ends between 110 and 111st I assume those will only make it to the ribbon of steel. West of that, again who knows? 105ave is also supposed to get bikelanes one of these days too, but it's mostly an industrial wasteland so yay.

    Outside of the core, the images for the WLRT and SELRT just seem to indicate driving lanes and sidewalks.

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    ^ Actually, on the current plans for the downtown connector the westbound cycle on 102 lane is fragmented, for the most part only existing next to stations.
    Last edited by theblueskin; 10-11-2010 at 05:25 PM.

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    ^ is that online somewhere? I realized the pretty pictures might not have been updated, but the maps in the pdf don't really make it all clear.

    In any case, the train turns at 107, so lanes would only exist east of there.

    Sharrows down 103ave from churchill all the way to 125 or 126st would be soooo easy.

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    ^ It's really hard to see in the crappy pictures in the pdf. but it is there. I overlooked it the first time I looked at the paper version, only to be horified later, when I realized what they'd done.

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    ^ ah. The thin green disappearing line. Yup, that's pretty extra useless.

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    Oh, but I guess more important is the fact that the W and SE lines don't appear to have bikelanes or multiuse trails?

    (SLRT-style Multiuse Trails in the mature neighbourhoods wouldn't be much use for cycling because the blocks are so short with lots of intersections. You'd be transitioning back and forth from trail to road every 100m, so it would be just like riding on the sidewalk.)

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    According to the pamphlet - which has different maps than the presentation - the eastbound bike lane is continuous, the westbound bike lane exists on blocks where westbound automobile traffic is not allowed. There are also " bike boxes" at each intersection to allow bikes to make safe left turns.

    The lanes stretch from 97 to 107. I don't know why they didn't include bike lanes east of 97. I expect they would add bike lanes between 109 and 107 when this is built, but it wouldn't really matter, since there will be pretty much zero vehicular traffic.

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    Speakers Series - Michael Ronkin "Designing Streets for Pedestrians and Cyclists"
    More info to come.
    When
    Tue 20 Mar 19:00 – 21:00 Mountain Time - Edmonton
    Where
    Kule Lecture Theatre - Grant McEwan University 109 Street & 104 Avenue (map)
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    I wud call van behind the times relative to europe, plus it's half arsed copy from there anyways. Edmonton and bikes? Hopeless.

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    I'm not sure how well those examples would work in the winter. They don't look like they would be accessible to snowplows and there doesn't seem to be any place to pile snow. Bike lanes that are not cleared of snow are useless for half the year in Edmonton.

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    They have mini plows
    www.decl.org

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    When I lived in Winnipeg as a kid, the city plowed the sidewalks with those mini-plows. Worked great. But you do need a place to put the rows of snow (we had boulevards).

    Eve

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    Was out today with the tandem bike. Got on the bike lane on 111th street north of Whyte Ave in the University area. The bike route was terrible, so much sand you could not see the painted markings, pot holes and poorly done patches, downed tree branches encroaching onto the route, just a mess. Come on Edmonton, try a little harder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I'm not sure how well those examples would work in the winter. They don't look like they would be accessible to snowplows and there doesn't seem to be any place to pile snow. Bike lanes that are not cleared of snow are useless for half the year in Edmonton.
    Incorrect. Many cycling routes like the one on the NE LRT line and all along the North Sask are cleared and useable year round.
    Parkdale

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Was out today with the tandem bike. Got on the bike lane on 111th street north of Whyte Ave in the University area. The bike route was terrible, so much sand you could not see the painted markings, pot holes and poorly done patches, downed tree branches encroaching onto the route, just a mess. Come on Edmonton, try a little harder.
    That route has been terrible for years, and it has nothing to do with the grit. The condition of the road is so bad that I hate riding my roadie on it as it is so bone jarring, you have to stop every intersection and crossing major routes they make you act like a pedestrian. Just like 102 Ave thru DT, or numerous other bike routs in the city, they slap the blue sign on the telephone pole and call it a bike route... no thought to bike safety, convenience or kinetic energy.
    Last edited by 240GLT; 23-04-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I'm not sure how well those examples would work in the winter. They don't look like they would be accessible to snowplows and there doesn't seem to be any place to pile snow. Bike lanes that are not cleared of snow are useless for half the year in Edmonton.
    Incorrect. Many cycling routes like the one on the NE LRT line and all along the North Sask are cleared and useable year round.
    Yes, they are cleared of snow and are thus not useless in winter. They are also wider than the example I was commenting on (many could be cleared with a pickup truck plow) and there's lots of room beside them to store snow. I was just commenting that bike path design in Edmonton needs to take snow removal into account. If it is too difficult to move snow off of the path to a place where it can be stored or picked up and removed, the snow will stay all winter it will be a terrible bike route.

    On the NE LRT pathway, does anyone have any idea when it will be extended further North, or when the connection between downtown and the bridge across 97 St will be improved? The latter should have been part of the Epcor building project.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post

    That route has been terrible for years, and it has nothing to do with the grit. The condition of the road is so bad that I hate riding my roadie on it as it is so bone jarring, you have to stop every intersection and crossing major routes they make you act like a pedestrian. Just like 102 Ave thru DT, or numerous other bike routs in the city, they slap the blue sign on the telephone pole and call it a bike route... no thought to bike safety, convenience or kinetic energy.
    Agreed. The stupid all-way stops near U of A need to go, as to the ones on 102 Av in Oliver. 102 Av through downtown is OK once you learn the light timings, it's the downtown streets that make you stop every block.
    Last edited by Titanium48; 23-04-2012 at 03:11 PM.

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    ^^ They need to extend the bike trail all the way to Clareview. Having the bike path there gives people who live along the LRT line a great cycling commute option. It's crazy that it just sort of dumps out into a parking lot adjacent to Northlands, and leaves cyclists to fend for themselves. Same thing at 96 street... it just dumps you out at the police station, and gives no clue as to where you should go next.

    102 ave is okay-iosh, but the light timings are dumb, I can usually make it 4 lights before I have to stop but I have to really crank it to make it that far without stopping.

    Most bike routes in the city are really quite poor. It funny, becaue the city has the best urban recreational biking of any city in Canada, but the commuter biking is horrible
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    or when the connection between downtown and the bridge across 97 St will be improved? The latter should have been part of the Epcor building project.
    EPCOR Tower was only 1 Phase of Stationlands. I would imagine this bridge gets fixed up in a later phase of the full stationlands project.

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    I thought that something was going to be done to the bridge as part of the museum project.

    It's already usable, if something less than ideal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    ^^ They need to extend the bike trail all the way to Clareview. Having the bike path there gives people who live along the LRT line a great cycling commute option. It's crazy that it just sort of dumps out into a parking lot adjacent to Northlands, and leaves cyclists to fend for themselves.
    At least to belvedere right away. The LRT route is ideal for a bike route, there's the existing bridge over 118ave, over yellewhead, under Gretzky drive... Those separations are a huge benefit for cyclists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I thought that something was going to be done to the bridge as part of the museum project.

    It's already usable, if something less than ideal.
    Land belongs to Stationlands though (EPCOR tower builder) so it's not up to the Museum (or Alberta Infrastructure)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I thought that something was going to be done to the bridge as part of the museum project.

    It's already usable, if something less than ideal.
    Land belongs to Stationlands though (EPCOR tower builder) so it's not up to the Museum (or Alberta Infrastructure)
    Yes it is. A path to 101 St could and should be a condition of any development permits for the site.

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    ^Which would be a City of Edmonton and Stationlands thing, not a Museum/AI thing.

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    It sounds like the multi-use along the NE LRT will be extended to 66th and the Yellowhead this year.

    I wish it was pushed to Belvedere.... that`s where it would be more useable
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    If it's to 66 street that's almost to belvedere, from there at least there are sidewalks. I suppose there's no room for a real path under the CN tracks, and the section from 66 to belvedere will have to wait until the noise wall is done.

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    Some paving at 66st. It looks like the old travel access lane is being paved as a multiuse trail

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    Sorry for interrupting...I thought this may be a good thread to ask this...

    ...I wouldn't mind chatting with some of the cycling community on a large event for Race Week Edmonton next year...I want to arrange a meeting with leaders/reps in this community from the Edmonton area.

    Please PM me with any contacts I should approach...or if it is you...then PM...


    Thanks for tolerating my interruption.
    Onward and upward

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    I was cycling eastbound on 104 ave. today and I was thinking that it would be a good candidate for a dedicated bike lane. 104 is already oversized and cuts off the northern edge of downtown from the heart of downtown and I think the addition of bicycle lanes and a road diet might lessen this effect. A good east/west cycling route here would also help cyclists connect from Oliver/Grant MacEwan/104 st. Promenade. Furthermore, it could link up with the North/South bicycle route through railtown. Perhaps this topic has been covered elsewhere already, but I would love to hear other thoughts on this.

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    ^ The city has plans to turn 102nd avenue into the major cycling route, in conjunction with the LRT. Dedicated bike lanes, bike areas at the front of every intersection, etc.

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    The Path to 66st from stadium is almost finished. it won't cross the bridge over 118 Ave, but it's neat to travel over the yellowhead and under Gretzky drive with no traffic and no interruptions.

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    Also, the detour around construction on the path between dawson and Kinneard parks is being removed and put back to normal.

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