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Thread: Currents of Windermere | Retail | Under Construction

  1. #1
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    Default Currents of Windermere | Retail | Under Construction

    Over the past few months I've gone out to tewillegar drive and anthony henday drive and I noticed on the south side of AHD there has been construction.

    Last night I passed by there again and there is a big big big sign saying, "Windermere, coming soon".

    I've looked for information but haven't found anything so far. Has anyone heard or seen anything more about that project?

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    As far as I know it's another subdivision.

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    Yeah, from what I remember it's supposed to be the next huge region in the city that they're working on. As you can see it's a massive plot of land that they're going to develop (between AHD, 170 st, Ellerslie), but from what I can remember, the portion that they're working on is only phase one of the development.

    http://www.edmonton.ca/InfraPlan/Con...%20edmonton%22

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    Quote Originally Posted by amanzano
    Yeah, from what I remember it's supposed to be the next huge region in the city that they're working on. As you can see it's a massive plot of land that they're going to develop (between AHD, 170 st, Ellerslie), but from what I can remember, the portion that they're working on is only phase one of the development.

    http://www.edmonton.ca/InfraPlan/Con...%20edmonton%22
    Windermere is the name of that part of Edmonton. It will one day comprise of up to 5 neighbourhoods with the first neighbourhood, Ambleside starting first. A large commercial site will be developed in the SE corner of Terwillegar Drive and AHD. A suburban office park will be constructed immediately east of the commercial area.

    The neighbourhoods will be quite nice and will contain a variety of housing forms.

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    also a wicked golf and country club:>


    but yes...this community will be one of the nicest and most sought after in the city.
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    I don't get it - the roads are loopy and the stormwater management ponds are square. Isn't that a little backwards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48
    I don't get it - the roads are loopy and the stormwater management ponds are square. Isn't that a little backwards?
    /\ It's just a concept map. The stormponds will not be square and the roadways will change during the detailed design stages.

    And no, it's not backwards.

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    Not only is Windemere an area, it will become the city's first "Lifestyle" Centre. Comprised of more than 70 acres of shopping and entertainment. The concept of a "Lifestyle" centre is based around pedestrian friendly areas. Think of Whyte Ave, but created in a few years. The buildings will be proportioned to the people. Often 3-4 stories and mixed use. You could have some condos above retail. Often cars are limited in the area, thus creating the "pedestrian" traffic flows.

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    I've driven past the windermere location lately and its amazing how fast they are building out that way. And especially considering it's proximity to Anthony Henday Drive I'd be surprised if that area didn't become a hub for all future devellepment in that part of the city.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TroyD
    Not only is Windemere an area, it will become the city's first "Lifestyle" Centre. Comprised of more than 70 acres of shopping and entertainment. The concept of a "Lifestyle" centre is based around pedestrian friendly areas. Think of Whyte Ave, but created in a few years. The buildings will be proportioned to the people. Often 3-4 stories and mixed use. You could have some condos above retail. Often cars are limited in the area, thus creating the "pedestrian" traffic flows.
    Sounds awful.

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    [quote="travis"]
    Quote Originally Posted by TroyD
    Sounds awful.
    Actually - as with most things - it has the potential to be quite cool if it's done right:

    http://www.windermereedmonton.com/content/view/14/36/

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    Looks like Disneyland.

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    i think this will end up being a decent suburban model of how to do a retail centre.
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    Default Walmart comes to Windermere

    Permit: 68882245-001
    To construct and operate a Retail Store (Wal-Mart)
    Location: 5120 - WINDERMERE BOULEVARD NW
    Plan 0723371 Blk 14 Lot 1 - AMBLESIDE
    Applicant: COUNTERPOINT ENGINEERING
    Application Date: 6/26/2007

    ------------------------------------------------------------


    no words
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    Default Re: Walmart comes to Windermere

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    Permit: 68882245-001
    To construct and operate a Retail Store (Wal-Mart)
    Location: 5120 - WINDERMERE BOULEVARD NW
    Plan 0723371 Blk 14 Lot 1 - AMBLESIDE
    Applicant: COUNTERPOINT ENGINEERING
    Application Date: 6/26/2007

    ------------------------------------------------------------


    no words

    First of many BIG stores that are finalzing deals there.

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    Default Re: Walmart comes to Windermere

    Quote Originally Posted by nunuangel
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    Permit: 68882245-001
    To construct and operate a Retail Store (Wal-Mart)
    Location: 5120 - WINDERMERE BOULEVARD NW
    Plan 0723371 Blk 14 Lot 1 - AMBLESIDE
    Applicant: COUNTERPOINT ENGINEERING
    Application Date: 6/26/2007

    ------------------------------------------------------------


    no words

    First of many BIG stores that are finalzing deals there.

    im well aware and know many of the ones going in...many i dont have a problem with, but the COSTCO's and WALMARTS of this world can depart.
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    I like Costco.

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    Default Re: Walmart comes to Windermere

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    Permit: 68882245-001
    To construct and operate a Retail Store (Wal-Mart)
    Location: 5120 - WINDERMERE BOULEVARD NW
    Plan 0723371 Blk 14 Lot 1 - AMBLESIDE
    Applicant: COUNTERPOINT ENGINEERING
    Application Date: 6/26/2007

    ------------------------------------------------------------


    no words
    For us ignorant folks, where is this? Is there a grid co-ordinate or a map?

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    Default Re: Walmart comes to Windermere

    Quote Originally Posted by dwells
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    Permit: 68882245-001
    To construct and operate a Retail Store (Wal-Mart)
    Location: 5120 - WINDERMERE BOULEVARD NW
    Plan 0723371 Blk 14 Lot 1 - AMBLESIDE
    Applicant: COUNTERPOINT ENGINEERING
    Application Date: 6/26/2007

    ------------------------------------------------------------


    no words
    For us ignorant folks, where is this? Is there a grid co-ordinate or a map?

    SW...basically terwillegar and AHD, south east corner
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    Default Re: Walmart comes to Windermere

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    SW...basically terwillegar and AHD, south east corner
    That will put a Wal-Mart on/near AHD at Gateway, Terwillegar, and Stony Plain Road.

    Sounds like Wal-Mart has a long range plan that even the province is powerless against.

    I would expect that others at each major AHD interchange: Saint Albert Trail, 97 Street, Manning, Lakeland Village (?), and whatever will be at highway 14, are already at, or close to the application stage.

  21. #21
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    windermere was supposed to be a new urban, pedestrian friendly community in the far SW (south of the new sw leg of anthony henday dr). the development was promoted as a nice, coffee shop, specialty clothing stores and deli filled community. walmart just doesn't find into the vision. who should our rage be directed towards? is it the city or the developer?

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    I don't really care what goes in Windemere because I doubt i will ever go there. By the time Windemere's finished, I suspect that our downtown will be at a point where a pretend downtown is unnecessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish
    windermere was supposed to be a new urban, pedestrian friendly community in the far SW (south of the new sw leg of anthony henday dr). the development was promoted as a nice, coffee shop, specialty clothing stores and deli filled community. walmart just doesn't find into the vision. who should our rage be directed towards? is it the city or the developer?
    Direct your rage at yourself by getting sucked in. It seemed painfully obvious from day one that Windermere was nothing but big box dressed up as something else.

    Just call it SEC West and call it a day.

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    i actually wasn't sucked in. my initial reaction was: why build such a community there when we have so much downtown east land available. now, i feel different--keep it there. move it as far south as possible. calgary can use some decent development

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    Quote Originally Posted by murman
    Quote Originally Posted by grish
    windermere was supposed to be a new urban, pedestrian friendly community in the far SW (south of the new sw leg of anthony henday dr). the development was promoted as a nice, coffee shop, specialty clothing stores and deli filled community. walmart just doesn't find into the vision. who should our rage be directed towards? is it the city or the developer?
    Direct your rage at yourself by getting sucked in. It seemed painfully obvious from day one that Windermere was nothing but big box dressed up as something else.

    Just call it SEC West and call it a day.
    More like SEC the next generation.... 'Lifestyle Centre'.

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    My comments are not so much about Wal-Mart, but about the congestion and hazardous situations these commercial developments generate on what would otherwise be high capacity roads.

    There was a glimmer of hope when WEM built their overpass and uni-directional access to and from 170 Street - when was this? during the '70's?

    But since then I can't think of a single major roadway in the city that hasn't been congested with box store parking lots - including 170 Street. When will the planners and city council realize that it is unsafe and unsightly to litter our thoroughfares this way.

    If nothing else, let's at least put these commercial centres behind a berm or a wall and require them to build service roads with limited access to the main roads.

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    One thing most of you fail to realise is that Windermere is that it will have two components to it. the outer semi-cirle will have the huge box stores and the inner circle will comprise of smaller stores commercail development and residential with a hotel. Unlike WEC which is completely retail. Yes it will have coffee shops and sidewalk cafes so in this way it will be different than any other development we have seen.

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    Wal Mart: Lowest common denominator.

    I keep saying it, because its so damn true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC
    Wal Mart: Lowest common denominator.

    I keep saying it, because its so damn true.
    I hate them just as much as you I am sure, but don't be blinded by it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC
    Wal Mart: Lowest common denominator.

    I keep saying it, because its so damn true.
    I hate them just as much as you I am sure, but don't be blinded by it.
    I'm not blinded at all. Wal mart is what it is: products built en masse and bulk bought and sold for rock bottom prices with little regard for the consumer or employee.
    The prices appeal to almost everyone...thats why its the lowest common denominator, rich or poor when you want that detergent you want it for 99 cents from walmart not a 1.19 from somewhere else.

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    Lowest Prices. Guaranteed.


    But at what cost??

    Read a neat book on the pros and cons (mostly cons) of Walmart, called the Walmart Effect. Pretty enlightening. Walmart is responsible for 10% of China's GDP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by murman
    Quote Originally Posted by grish
    windermere was supposed to be a new urban, pedestrian friendly community in the far SW (south of the new sw leg of anthony henday dr). the development was promoted as a nice, coffee shop, specialty clothing stores and deli filled community. walmart just doesn't find into the vision. who should our rage be directed towards? is it the city or the developer?
    Direct your rage at yourself by getting sucked in. It seemed painfully obvious from day one that Windermere was nothing but big box dressed up as something else.

    Just call it SEC West and call it a day.
    Murman, you have no idea what you are talking about!!!

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by nunuangel
    Quote Originally Posted by murman
    Quote Originally Posted by grish
    windermere was supposed to be a new urban, pedestrian friendly community in the far SW (south of the new sw leg of anthony henday dr). the development was promoted as a nice, coffee shop, specialty clothing stores and deli filled community. walmart just doesn't find into the vision. who should our rage be directed towards? is it the city or the developer?
    Direct your rage at yourself by getting sucked in. It seemed painfully obvious from day one that Windermere was nothing but big box dressed up as something else.

    Just call it SEC West and call it a day.
    Murman, you have no idea what you are talking about!!!
    You're right. Let me get back to burger-flipping.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco
    One thing most of you fail to realise is that Windermere is that it will have two components to it. the outer semi-cirle will have the huge box stores and the inner circle will comprise of smaller stores commercial development and residential with a hotel. Unlike WEC which is completely retail. Yes it will have coffee shops and sidewalk cafes so in this way it will be different than any other development we have seen.
    But why a Walmart? That is an upscale part of the City. In many neighbourhoods of the SW homes average over $1 million. They have made a real success out of the neighbourhood shopping centres such as Riverbend Square and the one with Soby's on 23rd and Rabbit Hill Rd. You can walk to those centres and they are busy. There are lots of coffee places and even a bakery (a good one too). What role does a big box store have to play in all of this? Doesn't City Planning ever learn. You have to drive to a big box store so stick them in the industrial areas where we don't have to see them. I thought there was something special being built at Windermere but now it is just Castle Downs south! Don't even get me started on what I think of Walmart!

    Well, I do live in the SW but not in that part of the SW. Now I'm glad I can't afford to live there. No, let me correct that. There is no way that anybody would pay serious dollars to live close to a Walmart. Anybody can now afford to live there. I still will not want to.

    Do the world a favor and boycott Walmart.

    Did I cross the line and get political?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco
    One thing most of you fail to realise is that Windermere is that it will have two components to it. the outer semi-cirle will have the huge box stores and the inner circle will comprise of smaller stores commercial development and residential with a hotel. Unlike WEC which is completely retail. Yes it will have coffee shops and sidewalk cafes so in this way it will be different than any other development we have seen.
    But why a Walmart? That is an upscale part of the City. In many neighbourhoods of the SW homes average over $1 million. They have made a real success out of the neighbourhood shopping centres such as Riverbend Square and the one with Soby's on 23rd and Rabbit Hill Rd. You can walk to those centres and they are busy. There are lots of coffee places and even a bakery (a good one too). What role does a big box store have to play in all of this? Doesn't City Planning ever learn. You have to drive to a big box store so stick them in the industrial areas where we don't have to see them. I thought there was something special being built at Windermere but now it is just Castle Downs south! Don't even get me started on what I think of Walmart!

    Well, I do live in the SW but not in that part of the SW. Now I'm glad I can't afford to live there. No, let me correct that. There is no way that anybody would pay serious dollars to live close to a Walmart. Anybody can now afford to live there. I still will not want to.

    Do the world a favor and boycott Walmart.

    Did I cross the line and get political?
    go to www.windermereedmonton.ca

    to educate yourself

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice
    There is no way that anybody would pay serious dollars to live close to a Walmart. Anybody can now afford to live there.
    See, that's one way to create affordable housing.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by nunuangel
    go to www.windermereedmonton.ca

    to educate yourself
    Done that quite some time ago. Frankenstein would be proud of this [email protected]@rd child of big box with lifestyle pretensions.

  38. #38

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    There's one of these things being built in Victoria too. Right down to having a Wal-Mart as the anchor tenant.

    It's crap.

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    I think it's just a SEC with lipstick on it.

    http://www.windermereedmonton.com/content/view/22/37/

    Take a look at the rendering at the top of this page. Looks like any number of SEC buildings backing on to parson's road.

    The 'lifestyle' centre will probably busy and active, complete with folks enjoying their 'small town' centre. No one will walk there from their house. It's surrounded by parking lots. It's more like an attraction park that people drive to and then drive home. The 'attraction' being a walkable town core.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC
    Wal Mart: Lowest common denominator.

    I keep saying it, because its so damn true.
    I hate them just as much as you I am sure, but don't be blinded by it.
    I'm not blinded at all. Wal mart is what it is: products built en masse and bulk bought and sold for rock bottom prices with little regard for the consumer or employee.
    The prices appeal to almost everyone...thats why its the lowest common denominator, rich or poor when you want that detergent you want it for 99 cents from walmart not a 1.19 from somewhere else.
    You missed the point I was trying to make. What I intended to say was do not be blinded by the fact a Wal-Mart will be part of the development. The fact they are in there does not make Windermere a good or bad concept. Personally I hope they find out it is not a good fit for them as it will be a high end development. Only time will tell.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC
    Wal Mart: Lowest common denominator.

    I keep saying it, because its so damn true.
    I hate them just as much as you I am sure, but don't be blinded by it.
    I'm not blinded at all. Wal mart is what it is: products built en masse and bulk bought and sold for rock bottom prices with little regard for the consumer or employee.
    The prices appeal to almost everyone...thats why its the lowest common denominator, rich or poor when you want that detergent you want it for 99 cents from walmart not a 1.19 from somewhere else.
    You missed the point I was trying to make. What I intended to say was do not be blinded by the fact a Wal-Mart will be part of the development. The fact they are in there does not make Windermere a good or bad concept. Personally I hope they find out it is not a good fit for them as it will be a high end development. Only time will tell.
    Walmart does not fit into the concept that Windermere is supposedly about. Not sure precisely what retailers/tenants will put up shop at Windermere but I'd think some high end products with high end prices and lots of the little "cute boutique" shops that have pretty merchandise several times the price of say, a Walmart which will take business away.

    Some people will basically look at the pretty home decor stuff, stroll the brilliantly decorated, scented, enjoyable shops, get ideas, then buy something at Walmart...

    Small retailers can't compete with Walmart yet a multitude of small non franchised retailers is what would make something like Windermere interesting.

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    Windermere is a mall without a roof; that's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC
    Wal Mart: Lowest common denominator.

    I keep saying it, because its so damn true.
    I hate them just as much as you I am sure, but don't be blinded by it.
    I'm not blinded at all. Wal mart is what it is: products built en masse and bulk bought and sold for rock bottom prices with little regard for the consumer or employee.
    The prices appeal to almost everyone...thats why its the lowest common denominator, rich or poor when you want that detergent you want it for 99 cents from walmart not a 1.19 from somewhere else.
    You missed the point I was trying to make. What I intended to say was do not be blinded by the fact a Wal-Mart will be part of the development. The fact they are in there does not make Windermere a good or bad concept. Personally I hope they find out it is not a good fit for them as it will be a high end development. Only time will tell.
    Walmart does not fit into the concept that Windermere is supposedly about. Not sure precisely what retailers/tenants will put up shop at Windermere but I'd think some high end products with high end prices and lots of the little "cute boutique" shops that have pretty merchandise several times the price of say, a Walmart which will take business away.

    Some people will basically look at the pretty home decor stuff, stroll the brilliantly decorated, scented, enjoyable shops, get ideas, then buy something at Walmart...

    Small retailers can't compete with Walmart yet a multitude of small non franchised retailers is what would make something like Windermere interesting.
    If you have ever seen the Windemere plan there has always been the intent to have big box stores on the perimeter with the "Urban Concept" in the middle. The type of retailers in the "Urban Concept" will most likely be unique and be of a different type than the Wal-Marts or even Best Buy.

    I suspect you'll obviously Starbucks, maybe a Crate & Barrell, Banana Republic, perhaps Henry, Guess, Lululemon, Caffe Sorrentino, etc...
    Thus the task is not so much to see what no-one yet has seen, but to think what nobody yet has thought that which everyone sees. - Schopenhauer

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    Default Currents at Windermere | Retail | Under Construction

    Southwest dev't aims to best South Edmonton Common
    Bill Mah, edmontonjournal.com
    Published: 12:36 pm

    EDMONTON - As dignitaries officially broke ground on Currents at Windermere today, developers promised an ambitious retail development unlike either traditional enclosed malls or vehicle-centred power centres in Edmonton.

    Anchors of the $500-million project such as Wal-Mart and Home Depot are already under construction over 106 acres in southwest Edmonton south of Anthony Henday Drive on Terwillegar Drive.

    Currents will have more than one million square feet of retail, office, entertainment and residential when completed in the summer of 2010.

    Full Story: http://www.canada.com/edmontonjourna...0-8e4e78b0acda

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    I'm glad to see that even though this is the same developer who came up with SEC, they at least realize the shortcomings of SEC and realize this is not a good model to follow for this new development.

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    I think this will be a great development for Edmonton. It will give everyone residents and visitors alike another destination.

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    I think the Windermere/Ambleside area is going to be very popular.

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    woo...
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    what are we encouraging here?...drive drive drive, sprawl, sprawl sprawl?
    In favour of Architecture that is of our time and place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoMod View Post
    what are we encouraging here?...drive drive drive, sprawl, sprawl sprawl?
    no no no...options for people, amazing new urban villages, and better access to walmart silly.
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    Oh i see said the blind man
    In favour of Architecture that is of our time and place.

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    ...do we really believe the average suburbanite will walk from point A to B?...

    In favour of Architecture that is of our time and place.

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    ^ do we really believe that the minds behind SEC will be able to competently add pedestrians into the mix with out creating traffic chaos the likes of which this city has never seen?

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    I don't see how this city can support such a development. I mean good god, we are a city of 750,000 people. The outlying areas (st. albert, spruce grove, sherwood, etc. etc.) all have their own "super centers" now...

    This combined with SEC, WEM, North Common, Mayfield Common, and probably more that I'm not mentioning.. what will happen to these plastic goods sellers if the economy slows? We will have alot of giant, post-apocolyptic ghost town/parking lots..

    I suppose they will make GREAT paintball or arms training depots when they are eventually vacated.

    I did hear a long time ago, that alot of these super "centers" (AKA SEC)
    Last edited by Kevin_Foster; 25-08-2008 at 04:39 PM.

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    The good things about these developments is that the buildings are so cheap, that they can be knocked down and replaced with something else once they are no longer needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoMod View Post
    ...do we really believe the average suburbanite will walk from point A to B?...

    No. Why do you ask such a silly question. The inner part of this development is where the residential and walkable retail will be located. That is the area that will make it unique to this city and a desirable destination

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    The good things about these developments is that the buildings are so cheap, that they can be knocked down and replaced with something else once they are no longer needed.
    great philosophy to work by
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    I think the SW needs something like this to be honest. At the moment, many in the SW are comuting on AHD and Whitemud/Gateway to SEC. Box Stores are reality today, we can't turn back time. For a comparison, it is not just SEC, the West End box stores seem to work fine IMO. I just hope the traffic / overpasses are incorporated properly and it is easier to drive around than SEC. Otherwise, I'm fine with this (bugger walking, these stores are too big, and you buy too much, for that).

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    Meh, that's how I view all those crappy retail super centres... they're so cheap, the buildings are pretty much a bunch of metal siding and stucco. Once they're no longer needed, they can be bulldozed and the land can be used for housing, or redeveloped into better retail space.

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    Well its certainly going to be popular...I`ll wait to judge the final product.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Foster View Post
    I don't see how this city can support such a development. I mean good god, we are a city of 750,000 people. The outlying areas (st. albert, spruce grove, sherwood, etc. etc.) all have their own "super centers" now...

    This combined with SEC, WEM, North Common, Mayfield Common, and probably more that I'm not mentioning.. what will happen to these plastic goods sellers if the economy slows? We will have alot of giant, post-apocolyptic ghost town/parking lots..

    I suppose they will make GREAT paintball or arms training depots when they are eventually vacated.
    You mean like Heritage Mall/Century Park?

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    The whole reason SEC is so popular is it lies in one of the most heavily travelled corridors in all of alberta. It's bordered by Hiway 2, 23ave, and AHD. You have both Riverbend and Mill Woods within a short distance. No other power center is going to capture the amount of customer traffic like SEC at this point or the near future.

    Now the power center at Terwillegar and AHD is meant to capture traffic from the extreme SW, same as the development on 17 st and whitemud is supposed to from the SE.

    The shopping area will be moderately successful. We are just seeing the combination of all the residential area strip malls and professional centers combine retail into a larger location.

    Love em or hate em, it's the way things are built today...

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    "The shopping area will be moderately successful."

    haha...um if by moderately you mean the most successful in the city i unfortunately will bet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    The good things about these developments is that the buildings are so cheap, that they can be knocked down and replaced with something else once they are no longer needed.
    great philosophy to work by
    Indeed, disposable diapers, disposable razors, disposable dinnerware,... disposable shopping centres are clearly the next logical progression of our disposable society, now we just need disposable cars to drive to them.

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    I will be hurting someone if this development results in any more traffic lights on AHD.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I will be hurting someone if this development results in any more traffic lights on AHD.
    wont happen...big difference between AHD and gateway cluster muck.
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    Yay, another retail experiment that only goes half way. Keep doing the baby steps till you get it right in a hundred years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I will be hurting someone if this development results in any more traffic lights on AHD.
    I believe access will be off Terwillegar. I can hardly wait until 5-8 years from now when we have to build overpasses and underpasses on Terwillegar Drive to provide access and cut down on accidents.

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    The supposed layout is very good. Parking on the outside, stores facing inward so you have a walkable boulevard in between full of open space. Too bad they didn't do that with South Edmonton Common (something painful even to look at particularly as you enter Edmonton from the South) but at least this one looks more promising.

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    ^ It is stores on the outside-outside, parking on the outside-inside, then another layer of parking on the inside-outside, and then finally a "walkable" inside-inside. The pedestrian part is a tiny section of the total area.

    http://currentswindermere.ca/images/...ersiteplan.pdf

    In the pedestrian area there won't be a steady stream of pedestrian or vehicle traffic, so in the off-hours it will basically be deserted, but it can't be locked off in the same way that the "public" areas of a mall can be. It should be an interesting experiment once all the windermere and ambleside kids grow up and start feeling rebellious.

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    I like this part:

    Harvard’s Forster said the Currents of Windermere design differs from similar U.S. urban villages by making concessions to weather such as sheltering sidewalks from the elements, exterior heaters and planning for 1,100 underground parking stalls.
    I got that from the end of today's article in the Edmonton Journal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    ^ It is stores on the outside-outside, parking on the outside-inside, then another layer of parking on the inside-outside, and then finally a "walkable" inside-inside. The pedestrian part is a tiny section of the total area.

    http://currentswindermere.ca/images/...ersiteplan.pdf

    In the pedestrian area there won't be a steady stream of pedestrian or vehicle traffic, so in the off-hours it will basically be deserted, but it can't be locked off in the same way that the "public" areas of a mall can be. It should be an interesting experiment once all the windermere and ambleside kids grow up and start feeling rebellious.
    Well that wouldn't be ideal then but it still looks better than South Edmonton Common. I was hoping for a much more pedestrian-focused area rather than just a tiny pedestrian area dwarfed by big box stores surrounding it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    ^ It is stores on the outside-outside, parking on the outside-inside, then another layer of parking on the inside-outside, and then finally a "walkable" inside-inside. The pedestrian part is a tiny section of the total area.

    http://currentswindermere.ca/images/...ersiteplan.pdf

    In the pedestrian area there won't be a steady stream of pedestrian or vehicle traffic, so in the off-hours it will basically be deserted, but it can't be locked off in the same way that the "public" areas of a mall can be. It should be an interesting experiment once all the windermere and ambleside kids grow up and start feeling rebellious.
    During the off hours is SEC or any other suburban shopping area deserted? No, so how can you assume otherwise with this example?

    This development will give shoppers the opportunity to 'park once' and walk versus SEC where it was not planned for this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Meh, that's how I view all those crappy retail super centres... they're so cheap, the buildings are pretty much a bunch of metal siding and stucco. Once they're no longer needed, they can be bulldozed and the land can be used for housing, or redeveloped into better retail space.
    Isn't this how urban areas evolve? Of course it is.

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    ^in reality though...do we see this happening?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Meh, that's how I view all those crappy retail super centres... they're so cheap, the buildings are pretty much a bunch of metal siding and stucco. Once they're no longer needed, they can be bulldozed and the land can be used for housing, or redeveloped into better retail space.
    Isn't this how urban areas evolve? Of course it is.
    don't we evolve?
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GoMod View Post
    what are we encouraging here?...drive drive drive, sprawl, sprawl sprawl?
    no no no...options for people, amazing new urban villages, and better access to walmart silly.
    Some people don't follow your ideologies or lifestyle.

    What's wrong with choice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Meh, that's how I view all those crappy retail super centres... they're so cheap, the buildings are pretty much a bunch of metal siding and stucco. Once they're no longer needed, they can be bulldozed and the land can be used for housing, or redeveloped into better retail space.
    Isn't this how urban areas evolve? Of course it is.
    don't we evolve?
    Of course we do. But the majority of buildings are not built to last 50-years and never will. Certain buildings that are iconic, symbols of culture, religion, etc should be. But for the most part, they aren't. Even the wonderful houses in some of the most beautiful urban neighbourhoods weren't built to last 50-years.

    Cities / urban areas are organic.

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    ^they dont? what the...

    choice is good, society being guided inappropriately is not
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Meh, that's how I view all those crappy retail super centres... they're so cheap, the buildings are pretty much a bunch of metal siding and stucco. Once they're no longer needed, they can be bulldozed and the land can be used for housing, or redeveloped into better retail space.
    Isn't this how urban areas evolve? Of course it is.
    don't we evolve?
    Of course we do. But the majority of buildings are not built to last 50-years and never will. Certain buildings that are iconic, symbols of culture, religion, etc should be. But for the most part, they aren't. Even the wonderful houses in some of the most beautiful urban neighbourhoods aren't built to last 50-years.

    Cities / urban areas are organic.
    ^that they are...

    i would bet this isnt even designed for 25yrs...which is not only environmentally unsound but is in stark contrast to much of what we know we should be doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^in reality though...do we see this happening?
    What happened / is happening to many older shopping malls or retail centres? But many are evolving into high density mixed-use urban villages. From Don Mills to Oakridge to our own little Century Park.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^in reality though...do we see this happening?
    What happened / is happening to many older shopping malls or retail centres? But many are evolving into high density mixed-use urban villages. From Don Mills to Oakridge to our own little Century Park.
    sorry, twas speaking to walkability comment
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    What's wrong with choice?
    Choice is good, but not all choices are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    During the off hours is SEC or any other suburban shopping area deserted? No, so how can you assume otherwise with this example?
    Nothing beats a "public" space that's entirely hidden from view. Luckily, there's less chance for mischief since no one will be able to get there without a car.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    This development will give shoppers the opportunity to 'park once' and walk versus SEC where it was not planned for this.
    That is so not going to happen.



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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    This development will give shoppers the opportunity to 'park once' and walk versus SEC where it was not planned for this.
    That is so not going to happen.
    I agree. There is no way in the world your average family is going to spend 2 hours in Wal Mart of similar, walking a long distance (which it is when you walk around inside these stores), only to then walk even further to the next box store, from which they will have to carry / push all the stuff they purchased there, all the way back to the car...

    IMO it is not even worth the effort trying to build such functionality in. The key to me, is that vehicles have to flow efficiently and easily for this to be more successful than SEC. IMO that shouldn't be too hard to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    The key to me, is that vehicles have to flow efficiently and easily for this to be more successful than SEC. IMO that shouldn't be too hard to do.
    And SEC's biggest failing in that is the complete absense of turning lanes. If one person wants to make a left or go straight out of the Bestbuy lot, then suddenly you've got a lineup of 20 cars.

    From the pretty pictures it's tough to tell exactly what is planned, but a lot of those access points seem pretty narrow. Ah, but they've got trees - no doubt to aid "walkability" while impairing visibility for drivers and pedestrians alike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    I like this part:

    Harvard’s Forster said the Currents of Windermere design differs from similar U.S. urban villages by making concessions to weather such as sheltering sidewalks from the elements, exterior heaters and planning for 1,100 underground parking stalls.
    I got that from the end of today's article in the Edmonton Journal.
    Notice it says "planning for 1,100" I wager that there will be no more underground stalls than are required for the condominiums that MAY get built above some of the retail.

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    i dont know about everyone here but when i go to the home depot and walmart i dont plan on walking around with my bags and lumber afterwards.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    During the off hours is SEC or any other suburban shopping area deserted? No, so how can you assume otherwise with this example?
    Nothing beats a "public" space that's entirely hidden from view. Luckily, there's less chance for mischief since no one will be able to get there without a car.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    This development will give shoppers the opportunity to 'park once' and walk versus SEC where it was not planned for this.
    That is so not going to happen.


    Nice try, but posting these plans provide zero rationale. Please explain?

    Many of you are forgetting how this retail development will ultimately function.

    a) It has destination / anchor retailers - the majority of the shoppers will drive to this establishment with the intent to pick up specific items. Oftentimes they are purchasing in large quantities. They have no intent on staying to walk around afterwards. These are typically your larger format stores such as Superstore, Wal-mart, Home Depot, etc.

    b) General retailers / entertainment / restaurant venues - the majority of the shoppers intend on visiting multiple establishments within the development. This is why the CRU's (Commercial Retail Units) are clustered close together to create a more walkable / pedestrian-friendly environment. In most cases, these areas are anchored by a large entertainment venue such as a movie theatre. These areas also include other amenities such as public squares, plazas, or open spaces, which are uncommon or non-existant in your standard power center.

    I think many of us overlook how certain retailers operate and the customer motivations for visiting individual establishments. Consumers are not the same, there is a science to it.

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    These magical things called CRUs lead to walkable developments? Well then what's the big deal about Windermere, because we must have walkable development all over town. Mayfield, Christy's Corner, Westgate, Westpoint, Terra Lossa, Terwillegar, Oliver Square - the list is just endless.

    It's funny though, because none of those places really have much in the way of actual pedestrians. Lots of combinations of various CRU uses - a bank, next to a restaurant, next to a salon, next to a clothes store, all across the street from a theatre - but no. one. walks.

    Ahhh. But those places don't have trees or a park that's hidden from view. That is what will change people's behaviour. Just like all the people who walk through the park that separates the CRUs in the eastern part of Oliver Square (they don't), or the Marketplace at Callingwood (a space that's great for farmers markets but has been abandoned by everything else), or at any of the other innovative suburban retail environments that have been built in Edmonton over the years.

    Do developers ever actually walk anywhere, I wonder? Or is drawing pretty circulation lines good enough? That must be the science part.
    Last edited by newfangled; 26-08-2008 at 11:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    These magical things called CRUs lead to walkable developments? Well then what's the big deal about Windermere, because we must have walkable development all over town. Mayfield, Christy's Corner, Westgate, Westpoint, Terra Lossa, Terwillegar, Oliver Square - the list is just endless.

    It's funny though, because none of those places really have much in the way of actual pedestrians. Lots of combinations of various CRU uses - a bank, next to a restaurant, next to a salon, next to a clothes store, all across the street from a theatre - but no. one. walks.

    Ahhh. But those places don't have trees or a park that's hidden from view. That is what will change people's behaviour. Just like all the people who walk through the park that separates the CRUs in the eastern part of Oliver Square (they don't), or the Marketplace at Callingwood (a space that's great for farmers markets but has been abandoned by everything else), or at any of the other innovative suburban retail environments that have been built in Edmonton over the years.

    Do developers ever actually walk anywhere, I wonder? Or is drawing pretty circulation lines good enough? That must be the science part.
    Perhaps you need a bit of coaching here. Go on google, take a good hard look at the overall site design and layout of CRU buildings in Mayfield Common, Oliver Square, etc. Then compare them to Currents.

    There are major differences in the overall layout of the site and orientation of buildings.

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    http://currentswindermere.ca/images/...ng_allpdfs.pdf

    Their plan package is available here

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    i dont know about everyone here but when i go to the home depot and walmart i dont plan on walking around with my bags and lumber afterwards.....
    bingo. If the developers want to best South Edmonton Common (not a very high challenge considering the infrastructure / traffic nightmare it has resulted in), the focus must be on good vehcile access / flow, not pedestrians.

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    A look at google is really helpful.

    The "walkable" area of the Currents can be viewed as several separate mini-commons. And each of those has forms that can easily be found in SEC.

    There will be the women's fashion common - picture the guess/buffalo/claiborne/ricki's section of SEC. That will probably be joined by a second and third women's fashion common - although those will be more nichey like the addition-elle/maternity section of SEC.

    Then there will be a decor common - similar to the Pier1/Stokes/(former)Bomaby/Urbanbarn area.

    There wil be a fast-food common - similar to the Pitapit/Quiznos/marbleslab/subway area. And near it will likely be the youth-focused common - with HMV/EBgames/Sony.

    And spread throughout these mini-commons will be the usual mix of banks, cellphone stores, salon/jeweller/flowers/healthfood/cards/etc.

    And each mini-common will have one of either a Timmies/SecondCup/Starbucks.

    And of course sit-down restaurants are of little use to shoppers, and most diners aren't simultaneously shoppers, so the restaurants are all out of the way and grouped together - similar to Joeys/OPM/Montanas.

    And all of that will have easy drive-in, drive-out access, just like SEC.

    But in the centre, surrounding a park that's the size of a bank branch, in an area that no one needs to go, will be a dozen pedestrian only CRUs. It will be a pedestrian wonderland. What will go in there? A boutique nailcare place? Or a boutique realtor? Maybe a boutique registries office? Or maybe even a boutique tax preparation firm. The possibilities are endless and thrilling.

    To assume that this will work for pedestrians assumes that the developer will get it right. But they've never done it before, and as SEC shows they haven't even figured out how to design properly for cars yet, so good luck with that.

    And, for anyone saying this area may one day be redeveloped a la Century Park - remember that this area is probably in one of the worst possible locations for a distant-future LRT line. So it will have to be one of those high-end brt-oriented developments.

    There's really not much new here. There's certainly not much to expect people to behave any differently than they do at every other powercentre or mini-mall.

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    ^that made my morning...thank you.

    However with that said, i believe they have secured or are securing some "big names" for the CRUs in the middle section.
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    I have no doubt this development will attract some upscale retailers. The whole trade area is relative affluent.
    Almost always open to debate...

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    It will draw upscale retailers for sure. They will set up shop in the sticks and keep Downtown void of good retail for decades to come.

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    Why not just put a roof over the "pedestrian street" and call it a mall?

    I really don't understand how malls lost the battle of the suburbanites to developments like this and its brother with the extra chromosome, SEC.

  99. #99
    C2E Long Term Contributor
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    ^i do...

    malls cost a lot of $ to build, these dont in relative terms and are far more "flexible" for when "lifestyles change"
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  100. #100
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    ^ Mayfield is a good example of that. It officially became "Mayfield Common" maybe 15 years ago, and it's already had to reinvent itself at least twice. For a mall, that's a huge undertaking. For a common, you just bulldoze some stuff, rerun services, pour a slab and you're good to go.

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