View Poll Results: Mandatory winter tires

Voters
53. You may not vote on this poll
  • Too expensive and not necessary

    19 35.85%
  • Long overdue

    15 28.30%
  • Only with government subsidy

    8 15.09%
  • Yes alongside mandatory annual check-ups

    13 24.53%
  • Option 5? I should have stopped at 4. Other?

    5 9.43%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Mandatory winter tires in Alberta--good idea?

  1. #101

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    What does a tire change over cost in Quebec? How do they work it there with nearly every vehicle in the province going to the tire shops over say a month, twice a year. That would create some interesting staffing, WCB, and insurance issues.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    More like completely expected results. Anyone who's used winter tires know they work. This isn't a conspiracy.
    I love them. You'll find me posting here on c2e promoting them maybe back as far as 2006. However, I don't like people trying to scam everyone by saying it's a cost free choice. It's not.

  3. #103

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    New video from Driving.ca showing performance of winter tires vs. all season

    Worn winter tires were better than brand new all seasons in traction and braking.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  4. #104
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    ^^ It can be a nearly zero cost choice if you drive a lot and switch the tires yourself. It isn't if you are paying someone else to switch your tires twice a year or if you drive less than ~25,000 km/year and both sets of tires age out before they wear out.

  5. #105

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    I use only the factory rims and it costs me $50 per swap over. That's a bargain considering they get balanced, rotated, and inspected. Almost nobody that does their tires in their garage gets them properly balanced.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  6. #106
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    You don't need to balance if you're not swapping two sets of rubber back and forth on a single set of rims. Virtually no one has that kind of equipment at home, anyways. If you're just swapping two complete sets of rubber/rims, there's no reason to balance. And I'd be surprised if a tire shop is only charging you $50 to mount and balance rubber every changeover. That would take a tech a couple hours to do.

  7. #107

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    Costco is $49. Tires/wheels go out of balance all the time. Not getting them balanced can seriously degrade the life of a tire.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    What does a tire change over cost in Quebec? How do they work it there with nearly every vehicle in the province going to the tire shops over say a month, twice a year. That would create some interesting staffing, WCB, and insurance issues.
    It costs nothing if you do it yourself. I do mine in 45 to 60 minutes.
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  9. #109

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    I should add, that the vast, vast majority of people are not mechanics. With some models of vehicle able to go 10,000km between oil changes, it's rather scary that nobody is under the vehicle looking for potential problems that could be catastrophic when they fail. So, while doing your own oil and swapping tires might save you a few dollars, it could cost you your life if you're constantly driving around with issues that would be caught by someone looking for them and easily fixed.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I should add, that the vast, vast majority of people are not mechanics. With some models of vehicle able to go 10,000km between oil changes, it's rather scary that nobody is under the vehicle looking for potential problems that could be catastrophic when they fail. So, while doing your own oil and swapping tires might save you a few dollars, it could cost you your life if you're constantly driving around with issues that would be caught by someone looking for them and easily fixed.
    Delayed response but just saw this...

    In my experience, anyone who changes their own tires and oil are going to pay more attention to the condition of the vehicle over someone who swings into a jiffy lube for a 29.99 special... And god knows there has been enough horror stories with those places screwing up something as simple as an oil change, never mind paying attention to anything else on the vehicle.

    I change my own tires, I used to change my oil own (don't now, for the extra 20-30 dollars over my material costs I gladly pay my indie mechanic). But I pay attention to the car itself while driving, the second something makes a new noise, or doesn't feel right I know it needs to be checked.

    Sadly like indicated the vast... VAST majority of motorists do not pay attention to their vehicles. Seen to many mini van's bouncing down the highway with blown rear struts... kinda terrifying.

    But on topic, anyone who doesn't think winter tires are a good idea for winter, regardless of paying someone to swap them or swapping them yourselves is just down right ignorant (my old father included, damn farm boy is a stubborn one) The cheapest winter will perform better in the ice and snow than the best all season.

  11. #111
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    ^ I still take my ride to a dealership where I bought my car from. Sure I pay more but I trust these guys more than some snot-nosed high school dropout at a Mr Lube. And guess what, I've had no issues whatsoever, even several years after the warranty ended! Contrast that with my prior car which had all kinds of issues once the warranty expired and I took it to the quickie oil change places.

    Back on topic, I swear by Nokian all-weather tires. They've held up well in both freezing Alberta winters and hot Okanagan summers.
    Last edited by Sonic Death Monkey; 08-09-2017 at 09:55 AM.
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  12. #112

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    ^ I get a laugh when seeing cars that go through a pothole and continue to bounce up and down for minutes after hitting it. Almost comical, until you wonder what condition the rest of that car is, and then you remember they are also sharing the same roads with you, and your family.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponto View Post
    In my experience, anyone who changes their own tires and oil are going to pay more attention to the condition of the vehicle over someone who swings into a jiffy lube for a 29.99 special... And god knows there has been enough horror stories with those places screwing up something as simple as an oil change, never mind paying attention to anything else on the vehicle.
    I have had more horror stories with dealers than I ever had with lube places. Its all the same grease monkeys, but at least the lube places work in volume to make money, they don't have hours to make crap up to charge you for. I never use dealers now (always buy a vehicle about 3 years old), and I never have problems, maintenance is a couple of hours each year driving through a Mr Lube.

  14. #114
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    Actually, in Top_Dawg's experience lube jobs at dealerships cost less than those quick lube places.

    It's just that you have to leave your car there for at least a half day.

    They don't do it while you wait.

  15. #115

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    ^My maintenance is 90 dollars a year, two 45 dollar oil changes (Mr Lube has regular specials like). Once every couple of years a car battery too and a twenty buck air filter. I can't believe the money and time people waste on dealers and unnecessary maintenance (especially once the warranty goes, as they will make up everything under the sun then as being wrong with your vehicle), spending multiple hundreds to please a lexus dealer or similar - nobody is going to give a **** when you go to sell it.
    Last edited by moahunter; 08-09-2017 at 10:04 AM.

  16. #116

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    I will never take my car to a lube shop like that again. I've had all sorts of issues, including... not putting the oil cap back on? WTF, and then the manager arguing with me that it's my problem, and they didn't do anything wrong, and that I purposely took the oil cap off after leaving the shop, and refusing to pay for an engine shampoo. Other issues I've had at lube shops - leaving tools under the hood, scratching the paint, leaving oil-hand prints all over the hood and top of the car. Never again. I'll pay more for my dealership to take care of it.

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^My maintenance is 90 dollars a year, two 45 dollar oil changes (Mr Lube has regular specials like). Once every couple of years a car battery too and a twenty buck air filter. I can't believe the money and time people waste on dealers and unnecessary maintenance (especially once the warranty goes, as they will make up everything under the sun then as being wrong with your vehicle), spending multiple hundreds to please a lexus dealer or similar - nobody is going to give a **** when you go to sell it.
    If I was to buy your lexus, I would want to see that you have receipts indicating you've followed the required maintenance intervals beyond just oil changes.

  18. #118

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    ^^sounds like my audi dealer experience of a few years back.
    ^no plans to sell it to you, I'll just trade, and dealers don't care about that (they just inspect it and stamp it as certified). I don't look for that when I buy a used vehicle, I just get a good price, and go from there, I find it funny people think they can maintain an auto as an asset - its not, no matter what you do, or how well you maintain it, it will depreciate about the same. A lexus dealer won't pay you anymore on a trade if its Lexus maintained than anywhere else.
    Last edited by moahunter; 08-09-2017 at 10:10 AM.

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^^sounds like my audi dealer experience of a few years back.
    Perhaps, but the dealership has a reason to keep me happy, the lube shop doesn't give a flyinfuck. They don't have a new car to sell you in a few years potentially.

  20. #120

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    How do you know if it's a good price if you don't have a clue about how or if the vehicle was maintained?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  21. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    ^ I get a laugh when seeing cars that go through a pothole and continue to bounce up and down for minutes after hitting it. Almost comical, until you wonder what condition the rest of that car is, and then you remember they are also sharing the same roads with you, and your family.

    Bingo.

    Oh for sure dealerships can be equally as bad as a quick lube shop. Beauty of finding a good indie shop, I've been friends with my Mechanic now for 13 years and he's not only taken amazing care of my cars but saved me thousands from the dealership prices too.

    Nokians are indeed amazing. Current set on my A3 are some Zestino's... Japanese tire, paid I think 500 for 17's mounted and balanced. First winter was amazing, still a ton of tread left too.

    The whole too expensive excuse to me is silly, your initial costs are higher yes, but then it's kinda a mute point once you actually have the two sets as both summer/winter sets will last longer not being driven all year round. Cost is even less if you do have 2 sets of wheels and can do the swap yourself.

  22. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    If I was to buy your lexus, I would want to see that you have receipts indicating you've followed the required maintenance intervals beyond just oil changes.

    I always feel a ton more comfortable buying a used car of someone actually has proof they took car of the vehicle.

    My current car I bought the guy had a folder and everything including the original window sticker from New York.

  23. #123

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    I'm the same way. I keep a folder of everything I do to my vehicle including the original paper work.

  24. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    How do you know if it's a good price if you don't have a clue about how or if the vehicle was maintained?
    Autos are incredibly reliable today - but even if perfectly maintained its a lottery, its either a lemon or its not. Next time you buy a certified used vehicle - you aren't buying a history of the maintenance, they just inspect it as of today. I don't even buy certified, but when I sell, I'm sure many of my past vehicles have got that stamp from dealers regardless of my not wasting cash on unnecessary service. I buy cheap (current auto I purchased has 150k on the clock after only 2 years, which tells me the previous owner was probably a sales person doing highway miles), do minimal maintenance and sell cheap. And my experience is just as reliable as when I used to be anal about it, and a lot less time wasted. I couldn't care less if I put a scratch or a ding on it, it will get buffed up when I sell in two or three years time - its an auto, its just transport, but might as well be comfortable transport.
    Last edited by moahunter; 08-09-2017 at 10:15 AM.

  25. #125

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    Moahunter buys cars with the Ralph Klein method: lowest possible price upfront, because once some problems inevitably develop due to cut corners or deferred maintenance, odds are it'll be someone else's problem.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  26. #126

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    ^maybe, its what I learned I guess from having done some car sales when I was younger - dealers just buff up / cheaply repair and then inspect and stamp. I'm fine with that, but realize they don't give any premium to people who think they are maintaining an asset - you aren't. If it makes you feel nice and safe spending lots at a dealer, go for it, I personally haven't found any difference other than it costs more and takes more time, if anything, non-dealers try a little harder because they don't have suckers just automatically coming back / believing whatever they are told.

  27. #127

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    Why am I completely not surprised you used to be a car salesman?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  28. #128

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    The one point I agree with Moa on (shocking) is that vehicle depreciation is the same whether one maintains the vehicle or not. Whether one produces all the maintenance record or not. Listed value won't vary much. Price will be based on year, model, superficial condition. Even packages or addon bonus features don't add up to much in resale.

    But I keep to the recommended maintenance more for peace of mind albeit I cut corners on silly addons like replacing wipers several times.

    One other thing is that most vehicles tend to have one area in which they chronically fail. So that the recommended repair you see mentioned in 2017 has already probably been done in last couple of years. Most dealerships will not detect this and will not mention it. if you keep all your maintenance records you can cross reference what work has already been done on your vehicle. I don't find it reasonable to have to pay full for the same repair that was done a year or two ago. So negotiate in such cases.

    Finally I always negotiate in the free Oil change for life packages. I keep vehicles long enough for this to be a pretty good savings.
    Last edited by Replacement; 08-09-2017 at 10:27 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  29. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    The one point I agree with Moa on (shocking) is that vehicle depreciation is the same whether one maintains the vehicle or not. Whether one produces all the maintenance record or not.

    But I keep to the recommended maintenance more for peace of mind albeit I cut corners on silly addons like replacing wipers several times.

    .
    When buying used from a dealer perhaps. But in my experience buying/selling private having all the records allows me to negotiate a better price as the seller, and when buying feel comfortable paying a certain price for a car as well.

    But any car I have purchased I have always gotten a full inspection done by my own mechanic as well, the 100$ goes a long ways. Being a car guy it helps because I research lots so do know what the major maintenance items are.

    For example, I would never buy a 2004 S4 without knowing if the timing chains have been done or not... mainly because thats a 6-8k dollar bill.

    Heck my own car, coming up on 220k km now... Regular maintenance - AWD service, 200 dollars for fluids and filter and I can do it myself. Transmission service (due every 45k) takes calibration and **** so thats a 400$ service I will never do myself lol and if that one isn't done and the transmission grenades itself well you're 4-5k for a new one. So yeah maintenance and records are important.


    Lol yeah wipers only replaced once they stop clearing my window any sooner is just silly for sure.
    Last edited by Ponto; 08-09-2017 at 10:34 AM.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Actually, in Top_Dawg's experience lube jobs at dealerships cost less than those quick lube places.

    It's just that you have to leave your car there for at least a half day.

    They don't do it while you wait.
    Western GMC pretty much runs a NASCAR pit crew and gets you in and out really quickly. I've been impressed with their service for our company trucks. Northgate is similar. Edmonton or Bavaria BMW? You're lucky to get your car back in 24 hours, in my experience. And/or to even receive a phone call advising you the car is ready. God I hate the BMW dealers in this city.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards
    I will never take my car to a lube shop like that again. I've had all sorts of issues, including... not putting the oil cap back on? WTF, and then the manager arguing with me that it's my problem, and they didn't do anything wrong, and that I purposely took the oil cap off after leaving the shop, and refusing to pay for an engine shampoo. Other issues I've had at lube shops - leaving tools under the hood, scratching the paint, leaving oil-hand prints all over the hood and top of the car. Never again. I'll pay more for my dealership to take care of it.


    One of my employees took his Hyundai SUV to a lube shop, I don't remember which name. They pinched the oil filter while installing it, so junk got in to his engine and wrecked it. 3-4 year old vehicle needed an entirely new engine, and I believe it was close to 10k. He had to fight the lube shop for months to get them to pay, but they did eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    The one point I agree with Moa on (shocking) is that vehicle depreciation is the same whether one maintains the vehicle or not. Whether one produces all the maintenance record or not. Listed value won't vary much. Price will be based on year, model, superficial condition. Even packages or addon bonus features don't add up to much in resale.


    That may be the case with entry level and even mid range cars. But fancier ones it really does pay to have good service records.

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    One other thing is that most vehicles tend to have one area in which they chronically fail.


    Yup. My car is a 2009 5-series BMW with a little over 90k km's on it. Check engine light came on, took it to Eurasia, and sure enough the valve cover had cracked and oil leaked internally, which meant they also had to replace spark plugs, coils, and a few other things (I'm a terrible mechanic, I just pretend I understand what they're saying). 2.5k repair. And apparently it's an incredibly common problem with the N54 engine, from looking around on BMW forums. So frustrating. Had it been caught before it leaked oil because BMW issued a service bulletin, it would have been a fraction of the cost to fix.



  31. #131

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    Marcel where do you get your oil changed?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  32. #132

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    A vehicle is the second biggest purchase most people will make in their lives (after home), but they change vehicles more often than homes. There is a lot of money in the industry, from dealers, to maintenance. I think there are some key truths:

    - Any mechanic will rip you off if they see the chance. A dealers big pay day comes at the end of the warranty, everything mysteriously breaks then. A loyal customer is someone who you can throw a multi-thousand dollar bill at every few years.
    - All autos depreciate, especially new ones immediately after sale. I am starting to buy more NA, because the reliability is actually pretty good, but the depreciation is faster. An auto that depreciates fast is actually a good one to buy second hand.
    - There is no credit for good maintenance. We used to go round buying vehicles privately to fill up the car yard sometimes (auction was a better source), what people think their vehicle and records are worth is always massively overstated. We would just find something that had been listed for a long time, massively low ball based on the mark-up we get on resale, and flash the cash. People get tired of selling privately real fast.
    - Autos are actually incredibly reliable today (unless you get a lemon, and no amount of inspection or records will identify that) - if you just buy and sell in that 2 to 5 year period you are unlikely to ever need any significant maintenance beyond an oil change.
    - Worrying about dings or scratches is silly - when you sell a dealer will have mechanic friends who will quickly spruce it up / steam clean the engine to make it look pretty, etc. It will look just as good after a quick service no matter how clean the previous owner kept it, the exception being things like seat wear or similar.
    - Non-dealers are just as good as dealers, and you can still fully follow the maintenance schedule if you want to (but you don't have to).
    Last edited by moahunter; 08-09-2017 at 10:49 AM.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Marcel where do you get your oil changed?
    Eurasia for my car, as do my dad and brother who own a variety of fancy cars. Eurasia is great, I would recommend without hesitation. Unfortunately for my Ducati I have to use Argyll, which has long had a history of being one of the worst bike dealerships in the history of bike dealerships. Thankfully ownership has changed and they're improving, as it's a pain to go down to Calgary to get work done.

  34. #134

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    Much appreciated!
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  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    - All autos depreciate, especially new ones immediately after sale.


    Not true at all. Particular makes and models of cars can start to appreciate after 5-10 years when collectors start buying them up, and particularly rare ones can appreciate enormously. A BMW M1 for example (the 79-81 ones, not newer 1 series) can be worth half a million dollars, if you find one for sale. Lots of 97 and 98 Porsches are worth a ton because those were the last air cooled years.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Much appreciated!
    Also, for more domestic vehicles, Westview Auto is also great. We take our company trucks there. Family owned business, and honest to a fault.

    "Hi Marcel, it's Chris. We did the front brake pads, but the rears still have 10% left on them. You can just bring it back in in a few months."

    "Just change the damn pads, sheesh."

  37. #137

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    ^^I accept there are a few rare investment vehicles that don't (my car dealer brother has a rare limited edition Jag for example), but that's not what 99.99% of people buy. Like golf country club memberships, I'm curious what happens to some of that market, especially muscle cars, as the boomers die off.

  38. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    [Yup. My car is a 2009 5-series BMW with a little over 90k km's on it. Check engine light came on, took it to Eurasia, and sure enough the valve cover had cracked and oil leaked internally, which meant they also had to replace spark plugs, coils, and a few other things (I'm a terrible mechanic, I just pretend I understand what they're saying). 2.5k repair. And apparently it's an incredibly common problem with the N54 engine, from looking around on BMW forums. So frustrating. Had it been caught before it leaked oil because BMW issued a service bulletin, it would have been a fraction of the cost to fix.


    [/COLOR]
    Yep. Looking at the car forums also provides good information on those chronic issues that specific models have. Depending on the repair, and the stated nature of how imminent a repair is required, I've even managed to hold off on a repair and then have that one end up done free as a manufacturer recall repair service. You can even request that a certain repair you require is recommended as a recall if you see it as a chronically listed condition.

    I look at the car forums BEFORE buying the vehicle as well. Its a real benefit of the internet age that such information is so readily available.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  39. #139

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    Since we're trading anecdotes: I've used Jiffy-Lube for my 20-year-old VW, on 104 Ave and in various outlets across the southern US. Contrary to "some snot-nosed high school dropout" (more telling of the attitude of the customer than the service provider) I've had great service and the fellow that served me just a couple days ago also serves me well on every visit at 4-6 month intervals over the last couple years. Doing what I would consider a tedious brain-killing job he seems to treat as a precision military operation.

    One difference betwen US and Canadian outlets: in the US you can't drive your car into the facility nor be on that side of the large window that separates the work area from the waiting room. In Los Angeles, extra-nice treatment if the car radio is set to a Hispanic station.
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  40. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^maybe, its what I learned I guess from having done some car sales when I was younger - dealers just buff up / cheaply repair and then inspect and stamp. I'm fine with that, but realize they don't give any premium to people who think they are maintaining an asset - you aren't. If it makes you feel nice and safe spending lots at a dealer, go for it, I personally haven't found any difference other than it costs more and takes more time, if anything, non-dealers try a little harder because they don't have suckers just automatically coming back / believing whatever they are told.
    I bought my truck with the intention of not reselling it, and hoping it last for next to forever. I don't drive much, walking/biking to work 90% of the time. The Tacoma is going to last a very very long time, especially with the proper maintenance and upkeep.

  41. #141

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    Back on the subject of tires

    I am in Germany right now and they have mandatory winter tires like Quebec.

    In Quebec, they reduced winter accidents by a proven 13%
    They even make a difference on dry cold roads.

    In Quebec there are guys who come to your door with a trailer and can change tires or remount tires on rims.
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  42. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I bought my truck with the intention of not reselling it, and hoping it last for next to forever. I don't drive much, walking/biking to work 90% of the time. The Tacoma is going to last a very very long time, especially with the proper maintenance and upkeep.
    My father-in-law has an '85 Volvo 240 & he's got literally every piece of paperwork relating to the car from the original bill of sale to an old couple who just drove it to church & onwards. But it's his baby, still rolling on the factory tires 32 years later. He takes insane care of his cars, not for resale value & not even for longevity. I asked him why he takes care of all his cars so well (he'll spend an hour of his own time after work detailing his work truck) & he said something which changed the way I appreciate & care of my own car: "You know that feeling you get when you have something brand new & shiny? If you take care of your things well you can feel that new feeling every time you use them."

    I love my car, even if it's really only used for my 5km-each-way-commute & weekend grocery laps between twice-annual jaunts to the mountains or bimonthly runs to see my sister in Calgary & I take good care of it so it stays the car I love.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  43. #143

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    Here's a question: in term of maintenance, what should the owner's focus be on?

    Regular oil changes or say, regular windshield wiper changes?

  44. #144

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    oil & lube, oil & lube, oil & lube
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  45. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Back on the subject of tires

    I am in Germany right now and they have mandatory winter tires like Quebec.

    In Quebec, they reduced winter accidents by a proven 13%
    They even make a difference on dry cold roads.

    In Quebec there are guys who come to your door with a trailer and can change tires or remount tires on rims.
    It just makes people drive faster, learn to drive within the limits of the road and you will be safter than hammering the pedal with winter tires.

    Human beings reveal a frustrating tendency toward risk compensation in all types of activity: better parachute rip cords lead to parachutists taking greater risks, flood prevention efforts lead to bigger houses on flood plains with inevitable results, medical breakthroughs in HIV prevention lead to more and riskier sex. Gerald Wilde, professor emeritus of psychology at Queen’s University in Kingston, Ont., is internationally recognized for his work in risk compensation. “I see no reason why mandatory use of winter tires should make any appreciable dent in the accident rate,” he says. To permanently improve road safety Wilde recommends making people want to be safer through positive incentives—reducing licence fees for accident-free drivers, for example—rather than forcing them to buy new equipment.

    As for Quebec’s observed decline in winter accidents since 2008, Wilde suspects it has more to do with the province’s high unemployment rate than its tire laws. Economic downturns reduce the total amount of driving, particularly among high-risk young males, and thus significantly decrease accidents. Nothing is so bad that it isn’t good for something, even a recession.
    http://www.macleans.ca/general/why-s...worse-drivers/

  46. #146

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    It doesn't make people drive faster. It improves stopping distances, and handles corners better.

    If moahunter logic were to be followed, we should remove ABS, and power steering, and go back to wooden tires, remove airbags and seatbelts, and any other innovation that has made cars safer, because it just makes people drive faster. Damnit. Now get off my lawn.

  47. #147

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    ^people used to drive slower / more carefully before all those innovations (my old FIAT 128 barely did 110km/hr, but would be considered a death trap if you looked at the safety features versus today), we are just making people feel invincible, and that's why people are still dying on the roads despite the improved technology. Mandatory winter tire's is just a money grab by tire dealers, kids growing up with AWD and winter tires have no idea how bad it can get when things go wrong, anyone who drove on slicks and no AWD has a much better knowledge of how dangerous ice / snow is. I'll quote it again:


    Human beings reveal a frustrating tendency toward risk compensation in all types of activity...

    "I see no reason why mandatory use of winter tires should make any appreciable dent in the accident rate,” he says. To permanently improve road safety Wilde recommends making people want to be safer through positive incentives—reducing licence fees for accident-free drivers, for example—rather than forcing them to buy new equipment."
    Last edited by moahunter; 08-09-2017 at 02:04 PM.

  48. #148
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    There is a benefit either way - if the safety benefits are negated by higher speeds, people are getting where they need to go faster.

  49. #149

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    I will repeat the facts.

    Quebec reduced winter accidents by 13 percent. That is the NET reduction inclusive of people who take more risks and drive faster.

    Understand the NET effect.

    Other areas that required winter tires also found benefits to the NET safety improvements. That is why others are studying the reports and moving in this direction.

    A side benefit is also that it gets a lot of bald rubber off the road.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  50. #150

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    moahunter, feel free to use 3 season tires all you want. In fact, feel free to ride around with your airbags turned off (the one in your head is already off apparently), rip out your seat belts, remove ABS, remove traction control, remove power steering. Why bother with those things, when we can all drive 15 km/h and still arrive safe!

    (in another thread, you were advocating against photo radar?!?! )

    You're a stranger duck. A stranger duck that is a walking contradiction of himself.

  51. #151

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    Lol like my old man, it seems certain people really don't seem to believe the science behind winter tires... Or any of the real world tests showing how much of a difference they make.

    The whole my all seasons are good enough argument is just silly.

  52. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponto View Post
    Lol like my old man, it seems certain people really don't seem to believe the science behind winter tires...
    Nobody is saying that winter tires don't stop faster in winter conditions (they aren't very good in warmer conditions or wet roads). But, if you do mostly city driving, and if you have the intelligence to drive carefully / keep good distances / not tail gate, you will be safer on all seasons than a tailgater on winter tires or all weather. At the end of the day, my winter driving record is perfect - no accident's, a lot of people with winter tires can't claim that, just because they aren't good enough drivers to manage with a less costly technology, doesn't mean I should be forced to spend more. Today its winter tires, tomorrow it will be forcing to have AWD or blind spot monitors, or lane control safety features (one of the biggest accident causes is not staying in lanes - why not make that mandatory?), the Quebec / dealer driven nanny state based on the capabilities of the least capable people never ends, and there will still be accidents until humans are no longer in control.
    Last edited by moahunter; 11-09-2017 at 12:57 PM.

  53. #153

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    ahh the age old "I've drive a million miles and my driving record on 3 season tires is impeccable"

    "I don't tailgate, so I don't need winter tires"

    Brillant.

    winter tires give you more grip in an emergency situation.

    Apparently, though, according to Mr MoahCalgary, the only people that need winter tires are those that tailgate?

    He's apparently a perfect driver, and everyone else is also a perfect driver, except those on winter tires.

    I'm glad I have winter tires when that kid darted out in front of my car on a slippery road. I was able to maneuver and brake. My 3 season tires would've surely meant injury or death to that kid. AND I WASNT TAILGATING.
    Last edited by Medwards; 11-09-2017 at 12:59 PM.

  54. #154

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    God forbid there is an accident ahead or an emergency situation where having more grip would be better than less....

    wait scratch that, when in driving would you not want to have the most grip possible? Winter driving, never been in an accident - don't tailgate either. But the number of times winter tires made a difference is huge, starting, stopping, turning, all aspects of controlling the vehicle in ****** conditions are improved. So why wouldn't you want that?

    ****** drivers and ****** drivers regardless of tires, any intelligent person can see that and should understand better tires = safer

  55. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I'm glad I have winter tires when that kid darted out in front of my car on a slippery road. I was able to maneuver and brake. My 3 season tires would've surely meant injury or death to that kid. AND I WASNT TAILGATING.
    No, you were driving faster because you had winter tires, so stopping distance was the exact same as mine, kid still dies if jumps in front of car, such is Darwins law.

  56. #156

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    frick you're a tool. Since you were right behind me in this case, you were actually gaining on me. Good thing I noticed that and moved out of your way as your tires would've had you sliding right into me.

  57. #157

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    Apparently people are better drivers if they use all season. If you have winters on, you must be a speeder. Only speeders would want tires that aren't hockey pucks.

    Also, unrelated, but Moahunter doesn't believe in science, and runs on the hopes of jesus and his incredible sense of self in an emergency.

    Pictured below: Moahunter on his all season tires, gleefully unaware that different rubber compounds provide better traction in different environmental conditions



    Who needs seatbelts? You were obviously driving too fast

    Who needs ABS? You were obviously driving too fast

    Who needs airbags? You were obviously driving too fast

    Who needs traction control? You were obviously driving too fast

    Who needs windshields? You were obviously driving too fast

    Who needs defrost? You were obviously driving too fast.



    Moahunter would probably be the guy on the job site that refuses to wear PPE... Obviously you were working too fast, or you wouldn't need PPE.
    Last edited by Medwards; 11-09-2017 at 01:15 PM.

  58. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I'm glad I have winter tires when that kid darted out in front of my car on a slippery road. I was able to maneuver and brake. My 3 season tires would've surely meant injury or death to that kid. AND I WASNT TAILGATING.
    No, you were driving faster because you had winter tires, so stopping distance was the exact same as mine, kid still dies if jumps in front of car, such is Darwins law.
    Seriously? So what you just drive around the entire city at 20kmh?? because that is safe....

    How can you possibly not think better traction = safer

    And how do you know how each person drives? You don't. Jesus man get over yourself.

  59. #159

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    He must run bald tires in the summer then too, because who needs traction. People with good summer tires must be speeders and hooligans too...

  60. #160

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    Or all these people had winters are were speeding!!!

  61. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I'm glad I have winter tires when that kid darted out in front of my car on a slippery road. I was able to maneuver and brake. My 3 season tires would've surely meant injury or death to that kid. AND I WASNT TAILGATING.
    No, you were driving faster because you had winter tires, so stopping distance was the exact same as mine, kid still dies if jumps in front of car, such is Darwins law.
    Seriously? So what you just drive around the entire city at 20kmh?? because that is safe....

    How can you possibly not think better traction = safer

    And how do you know how each person drives? You don't. Jesus man get over yourself.
    It's the same guy who calls LRT slum trains. Supports Trump, doesn't believe in climate change, and probably drives around with a jesus fish on the back of his lexus.

  62. #162

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    All season tires were created for the mid US states that get maybe 1-3 days of snow a year, and barely below freezing if ever. They are rated for rain, dry and hot and do alright till about +7 and that's it. After that, you are better off on hockey pucks. They were made so people didn't have to buy two sets of tires, becaues they only get a few snow days a year, if any. They were not designed for a Canadian winter on the prairies, or just about anywhere in Canada not called Vancouver or Victoria.

    I've tried using All season tires in the winter conditions. They just don't stand up. The science and stats behind them agrees with me.


    I know I'd prefer to be in control of my vehicle, and not rely on the hopes of jesus to save the day. moahunter relies on the jesus in an emergency to guide him through. "Pleeassee jesus, I promise to be a good guy if you just let my car stop in time this time."

    moahunters only defense is "You were driving too fast"
    Last edited by Medwards; 11-09-2017 at 01:23 PM.

  63. #163

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    Lol well thanks for cheering me up, we got a little derailed on this thread but all in all a good time. Just hope to never run into Moah on the road is all.

    Oh and yeah I am totally the dangerous winter tire sporting driver...



    Few Audi Winter driving experiences and even ghost lake driving on the ice does wonders for knowing the ability of your vehicle/tires

  64. #164

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    I've been rolling on all-weathers since I got my car (they're what came factory), but will be swapping out to a set of winters this fall. I didn't have any issues last winter with traction, but given that I wanna put low profile 20s on in the spring it makes sense to repurpose my OEM rims for winter tires.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  65. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I've been rolling on all-weathers since I got my car (they're what came factory), but will be swapping out to a set of winters this fall. I didn't have any issues last winter with traction, but given that I wanna put low profile 20s on in the spring it makes sense to repurpose my OEM rims for winter tires.
    It is a smart move and you should notice a good improvement in the winter driving now.

  66. #166

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    Might as well do something with the 18" OEM rims, the girl who owned the car before me rashed 'em up something fierce so I don't really wanna try & sell 'em. I can store the spare set out at my parents' acreage. My summer tires can hibernate next to dad's Boxster S all winter.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  67. #167
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I've been rolling on all-weathers since I got my car (they're what came factory), but will be swapping out to a set of winters this fall. I didn't have any issues last winter with traction, but given that I wanna put low profile 20s on in the spring it makes sense to repurpose my OEM rims for winter tires.
    20s? Better wait till the end of pothole season then. You might get a couple of months before it starts snowing again.

    I don't get crazy low profile tires. Sure there are handling advantages to smaller sidewalls, but you run into diminishing returns and have to put up with things like increased wheel weight and moment of inertia, harsh ride and reduced tolerance for less than perfect road surfaces. You don't even see 20s on NASCAR or F1 cars - they run something in the 35 to 50 range.

    For winter tires I want the the smallest wheel that will fit on the car, and I don't see the point in going below 50 profile for summer.

  68. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Here's a question: in term of maintenance, what should the owner's focus be on?

    Regular oil changes or say, regular windshield wiper changes?


    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    oil & lube, oil & lube, oil & lube
    Ahh, this is a longstanding issue for me. I can get a car with cup holders galore, but not headlight wipers and sprays.

    Issues like that bother me because I believe cars should be designed with the driver's needs -for DEIVIVG - prioritized. So in terms of vision, ergonomics of driving (not entertainment) related controls and settings and conveying important road and vehicle operating condition to the driver, etc., that functionality should be priorized over less necessary features and options like cup holders, radio controls, speakers, clocks, etc.

    Similarly, windshield wipers affect your ability to drive professionally. You could skip entire oil changes and it wouldn't change the quality and safety of your daily drive, but drive with poor worn out wipers, dirty headlights, poor tires for the conditions, hazy or dirty windshields, bad breaks, worn out shocks (I've seen an amazing number of cars bouncing down the road lately), etc. and it seems like misplaced priorities in terms of effort, expense and simple professionalism.

    Prioritizing oil changes over wipers may from a narrow financial perspective be the smart move but a driver's first priority is to set up the right conditions so one can driver without causing harm. Extending the life of ones engine is an ownership objective but driver needs MUST supersede owner's wants.

    Saving on the cost of snow tires to put more money in one's pocket is a nice owner 'desire', but an owner has to be a driver first and so a driver's need is for maximizing control and that comes from decent tires for the conditions at the time.
    Last edited by KC; 12-09-2017 at 02:39 PM.

  69. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Here's a question: in term of maintenance, what should the owner's focus be on?

    Regular oil changes or say, regular windshield wiper changes?


    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    oil & lube, oil & lube, oil & lube
    Ahh, this is a longstanding issue for me. I can get a car with cup holders galore, but not headlight wipers and sprays. Issues like that bother me because I believe cars should be designed with the driver's needs in terms of vision, ergonomics of driving (not entertainment) related controls and settings and conveying important road and vehicle operating condition to the driver, etc., as a priority over less necessary features and options.
    Within the context of your question though: bad windshield wipers will make themselves readily apparent and prompt most people to solve the issue. Bad lubrication won't show itself until much later and by then could be catastrophic.
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  70. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Here's a question: in term of maintenance, what should the owner's focus be on?

    Regular oil changes or say, regular windshield wiper changes?


    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    oil & lube, oil & lube, oil & lube
    Ahh, this is a longstanding issue for me. I can get a car with cup holders galore, but not headlight wipers and sprays. Issues like that bother me because I believe cars should be designed with the driver's needs in terms of vision, ergonomics of driving (not entertainment) related controls and settings and conveying important road and vehicle operating condition to the driver, etc., as a priority over less necessary features and options.
    Within the context of your question though: bad windshield wipers will make themselves readily apparent and prompt most people to solve the issue. Bad lubrication won't show itself until much later and by then could be catastrophic.
    'Readily apparent' though tends to coincide with need. Same for worn or inappropriate tires. Drivers need to focus on 'prevention' as one does with oil changes, but user/driver performance issues need to be a higher priority for many people.

    As an aside, as owners become less and less involved with their vehicle's maintenance I think the community of 'network' effect in exchanging basic knowledge is breaking down. These cars on the road with clearly worn out shocks bouncing their drivers and causing them to weave down the road may be indicative of drivers being clueless as to what their own car is doing as issues sneak up on them.

    Also, I've seen what are clearly 'worker' trucks pulling trailers where the safety chains aren't even crossed. Little things like that where the knowledge was fairly ubiquitous to past generations is not being effectively disseminated for some reason.

    In a weird sense improved reliability may have a deleterious impact on maintenance. As is: tires that never leak may mean drivers never have to get down clues to their tires and so they never check their tread depth.
    Last edited by KC; 12-09-2017 at 02:59 PM.

  71. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I don't get crazy low profile tires. Sure there are handling advantages to smaller sidewalls, but you run into diminishing returns and have to put up with things like increased wheel weight and moment of inertia, harsh ride and reduced tolerance for less than perfect road surfaces. You don't even see 20s on NASCAR or F1 cars - they run something in the 35 to 50 range.
    NASCAR tires need sidewall "headroom" because brake heat (up to 1000F) has a significant impact on tire inflation. Cars often leave the pits on braking-heavy tracks with as little as 8psi and have an inner hard-rubber tire to keep the tire running surface off the rim.

    Race Tire vs Street Tire:
    https://www.nascar.com/en_us/monster...reet-tire.html

    For F1, a higher sidewall provides "headroom" for lateral distortion.

    Both use "fat" tires for better adhesion and shock absorption.
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  72. #172

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    Likewise, drag racers use wrinkle slicks to maximize traction.



    I'm well aware of the trade-offs that I'll be making upsizing to 20s from my original 18s, but appreciate everyone's input. (Seriously). I remember the difference going from 13" to 17"s on my highschool Civic (until my 17s were stolen & my car left on fenceposts for want of cinder blocks).
    Last edited by noodle; 12-09-2017 at 03:05 PM.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  73. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I don't get crazy low profile tires. Sure there are handling advantages to smaller sidewalls, but you run into diminishing returns and have to put up with things like increased wheel weight and moment of inertia, harsh ride and reduced tolerance for less than perfect road surfaces. You don't even see 20s on NASCAR or F1 cars - they run something in the 35 to 50 range.
    NASCAR tires need sidewall "headroom" because brake heat (up to 1000F) has a significant impact on tire inflation. Cars often leave the pits on braking-heavy tracks with as little as 8psi and have an inner hard-rubber tire to keep the tire running surface off the rim.

    Race Tire vs Street Tire:
    https://www.nascar.com/en_us/monster...reet-tire.html

    For F1, a higher sidewall provides "headroom" for lateral distortion.

    Both use "fat" tires for better adhesion and shock absorption.
    My wife has a high end Touareg (Exec, R-Line... something or other) with those tires. Nice on smooth roads but they sure have taken the utility out of "sport utility vehicle" (SUV). We sure won't be taking it anywhere fun.

    Similarly years ago we took my 4Runner for a run to Alaska. Came back and the dealer had to replace the rear springs because they couldn't handle the road. (Roads that my Saab 9000s could easily have handled.)

  74. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponto View Post
    He must run bald tires in the summer then too, because who needs traction. People with good summer tires must be speeders and hooligans too...
    Actually - that's consistent with your argument since your goal is to make tires perfect depending on the time of year. Per your theory that tires should be perfect for conditions and hence all seasons (which I think can be safely used in all seasons), aren't good enough - so lets take your theory to extreme:
    1. On summer non-raniy days wear bald slicks
    2. On summer rainy days have wet weather tires
    3. On winter snowy cold days have winter tires
    4. On fall warm days have all seasons
    ...

    where does it end? I accept All weathers as being a better technology than All seasons, but I don't buy the argument that an All season can't be used safely in city driving, or that everyone should be forced to do so. You might as well ban old cars well because they don't have airbags, or abs, or whatever.
    Last edited by moahunter; 12-09-2017 at 03:57 PM.

  75. #175

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    Are you seriously trying to work the slippery slope fallacy as justification for your personal decision to take the bare minimum amount of care with your vehicles?

    Hilarious. And sad. Mostly hilarious.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  76. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Are you seriously trying to work the slippery slope fallacy as justification for your personal decision to take the bare minimum amount of care with your vehicles?

    Hilarious. And sad. Mostly hilarious.
    Are you seriously a believer that Qubecs laws mandating winter tires should be implemented in Alberta? What other nanny state things do you want the government to do for you? Why tires, and not ban old cars, which are very unsafe by todays standards?

  77. #177

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    One could mention bikes on he road are unsafe for todays standards. More traffic, bigger vehicles. Just saying.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Are you seriously trying to work the slippery slope fallacy as justification for your personal decision to take the bare minimum amount of care with your vehicles?

    Hilarious. And sad. Mostly hilarious.
    Are you seriously a believer that Qubecs laws mandating winter tires should be implemented in Alberta? What other nanny state things do you want the government to do for you? Why tires, and not ban old cars, which are very unsafe by todays standards?
    nanny state things???

    by your logic in this thread, even something like smoking cigarettes must be safe for you and your kids just because you haven't suffered any personal consequences as a result of the habit. yet.

    as for that "they aren't very good in warmer conditions or wet roads", their compounds might not wear as long in warmer conditions but that doesn't mean they don't perform does fine. as for wet roads, they will still perform just fine and that faster wear will actually be minimized. nothing like inventing things to support whatever position you happen to have taken.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  79. #179

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    Our VW and Subaru each have two sets of tires (AS & WT) but our Excursion only has all-seasons (with treads much more like a snow tire than that of many car sized snow tires).

    However, I was quite happy with the snow-flake labelled Nokians we'd recently had on a couple earlier vehicles. We ran those year round.

    So I don't see a need for a mandatory rule but a lot more education, and testing should be done. (It's rare to see any decent tests of winter tires.)

  80. #180

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    Nanny state? Government implementing safety rules is a nanny state?

    Next thing you know, moahunter will be telling us he doesn't wear seat belts, gotta stick it to big brother.

  81. #181

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    I can hardly wait until he goes full Freeman-on-the-land.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  82. #182

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    The government also recommends you aim loaded firearms away from your own face. Pesky governments, getting in the way of fun.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  83. #183

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    I wonder if in accident scenes the cops take notes of peoples tires?. Although if you look at an accident report usually there is no mention of tires. If an accident happens in the winter do insurance companies get any data on the state of peoples tires, ie: bald, winter, summer, radial etc. Where are they getting the stats from that winter tires save lives.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

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