View Poll Results: Mandatory winter tires

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  • Too expensive and not necessary

    19 35.85%
  • Long overdue

    15 28.30%
  • Only with government subsidy

    8 15.09%
  • Yes alongside mandatory annual check-ups

    13 24.53%
  • Option 5? I should have stopped at 4. Other?

    5 9.43%
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Thread: Mandatory winter tires in Alberta--good idea?

  1. #1
    grish
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    Default Mandatory winter tires in Alberta--good idea?

    Would mandatory winter tires in alberta be a good idea?

  2. #2
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    YES!

    Although some might feel as though they can still not drive for the conditions, it would assist in reducing insurance costs, deaths, and property damage.

    However I think it should be an insurance side initiative whereby you receive discounts for having them.
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  3. #3

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    Absolutely..... Everyone would be safer. They're much better than the ASEW tires (all season except winter) that folks "get sold on" now.

    Of course idiots there are poor drivers and/or speeders, can't drive on dry roads....... At least winter tires gives you a fighting chance to avoid the wreck.

    <sarcasm on> Having people stay on the roads will be good for my tow truck business....Medwards are you listening? <sarcasm off>
    ....the Kronic
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  4. #4

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    ...see you working in the ditch some time as I pass by you safely on the way to my destination.

  5. #5
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    During winter, proper tires are probably the single most important safety feature in your car (aside from seat belt and good judgment).

    But mandatory? I'd rather see a focus on getting the current cars 'up to code'. I see bald tires and old shocks all the time.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    ...see you working in the ditch some time as I pass by you safely on the way to my destination.
    The next time you see me in the ditch I'll be cutting your sorry ***** out of the car with the jaws of life.
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  7. #7

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    There's a first time for everything I suppose, but hopefully not for that. I'm not an ***** on the road.

  8. #8
    grish
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    well, not everyone who spins out is an *****. sometimes it is just bad road conditions and sometimes it is the ***** driving next or near you doing something idiotic.

    a thought--like block heaters, should a set of winter tires be included with a new car?

    another thought. most cars on the road are, say, in the $10,000 (used car price). A set of winter tires without (not top of line) rims is about $1000. The tires will last for a few years. With changing of the tires, it could come to about $300 a year. That amount to protect your $10,000 vehicle as well as your own health and health of others.

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    You can get decent winter tires for under $200 a tire, easily. Obviously it depends a lot on the tire size, but I bought some 205/50R17's for my BMW for $160 each (Hankook Winter Bears, I think). And due to the car, they're V-rated instead of the usual H, or whatever it is. I'm sure that for a typical Civic or Focus or Camry you can buy just the rubber for $500-750 total. Yeah if you get some Michelin Pilot Alpins you'll be paying $300+ a tire (and they'll totally be worth it).

    I think it would be a good idea to have them mandatory, but to be honest I've got a lot more pressing concerns that should be addressed first. Vehicles should be required to get bi-annual inspections, emissions tests and so on. As others have already mentioned, there's an awful lot of beaters on the road that really shouldn't be. Driving a car is not a right, and if you're unable to properly maintain your car, then it shouldn't be on the road and you can take the bus instead. As soon as we've eliminated the 10-20% of the cars on the road that have no business being there, then we can start worrying about mandatory winter tires.

  10. #10

  11. #11

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    well, not everyone who spins out is an *****. sometimes it is just bad road conditions and sometimes it is the ***** driving next or near you doing something idiotic.
    They're idiots if they're speeding. Like I said winter tires give you a fighting chance to avoid the wreck, unless of course the guy with the winter tires is is an ***** as well.

    The biggest problem I have every year is picking the proper time to change over. If the temperature is too warm, your winter tires get chewed up really fast, because the rubber is so soft and pliable.

    Unfortunately I bet that most people who are going to vote no, have NEVER driven with PROPER winter tires when it's cold enough. Most ground grips, mudders, etc. are NOT winter tires; they are ASEW (all season except winter) tires.
    ....the Kronic
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    One comment though: due to our different climates, I'd say it's less of a problem here than in Quebec or Ontario, if only because we tend to stay way in the deep freeze and don't have as many freeze/thaw cycles, and don't have nearly the ice on the roads that they do.

  13. #13

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    All season except winter - first I've really heard of this term. Theres all season, which is not really good in any season, its a compromise between a winter tire and a summer tire, it gives you neither good grip in summer or winter, but reasonable traction in both.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tires#Use_classifications

    AS tires aren't as good as Winter tires, that's for sure, but there not as bad as summer tires in the winter... there is some benefit in having all seasons in winter over having summer tires, but don't be fooled, they're not winter tires.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by raz0469 View Post
    As soon as we've eliminated the 10-20% of the cars on the road that have no business being there, then we can start worrying about mandatory winter tires.
    Any vehicle that stalls on a roadway should have to pass a MANDATORY mechanical/safety inspection before it is allowed to drive on a road again.
    ....the Kronic
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    I'll admit, I'm bad for not putting winters on my truck, Instead going with M&S & relying on my 4x4 when things get too mucky & slippery. And before a chorus of "4x4 doesn't help when you need to stop" arrises, that is not true, as the truck has a manual transmission which makes it infinitely more controllable in slippery conditions.

    Having said that, I used to run Nokians on steelies on my old Volvo 740 Turbo, To protect the nice factory alloys and because the cars' horsepower curve was very steep with the turbo engaged, which gave it a tendancy to break loose in the rear. I would have never considered running a/s tires on that car.

    Current Volvo doesn't even get driven in the rain, much less the snow so I don't worry too much about that.

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    No. I believe most of you are answering for the Edmonton region.

    Coming from Southern Alberta, I know it isn't needed there most of the time. Lethbridge gets snow 2 months of the year.

    If it was made mandatory for areas of Alberta, then that's fine. But if I were still living in the South, I would be against the idea of having to spend extra cash on something I don't need.

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    You can get proper winter tires, mounted on rims for $600-700 for most vehicles.

    I got performance (ha!) winters mounted on proper 17" rims for $1400. And before anyone chastizes me for getting alloys rims during the winter, they're pretty much a requirement due to disc brake clearance issues.

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    Default # 5 Studded Winter Tires

    The Province needs to clarify the policy - law on Studded winter tires
    Are they Legal?
    When do they have to be removed due to increased damage to the infrastructure?

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    i didn't know this was such a big issue... thought they were just common sense. making them mandatory? is it the govnt's job to keep telling people "don't be stupid"? how would this be enforced? at what cost?

  20. #20
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluestreak View Post
    No. I believe most of you are answering for the Edmonton region.

    Coming from Southern Alberta, I know it isn't needed there most of the time. Lethbridge gets snow 2 months of the year.

    If it was made mandatory for areas of Alberta, then that's fine. But if I were still living in the South, I would be against the idea of having to spend extra cash on something I don't need.
    don't know about Lethbridge, but you need winter tires in calgary until the end of May to drive through all those crazy and almost weekly 15cm snow storms during Calgary's spring.

  21. #21

    Default Should I get winter tires?

    It's funny...more and more people I talk to say "you don't need winter tires in Edmonton...the roads are always kept in great shape. it's a waste of money."

    For safety's sake I know that it's a good idea to have them (maybe I'm answering my own question)...but as a guy that doesn't have 6-700 bucks to put into tires...are they really TRULY nessecary?

    What are your thoughts??

    AW

  22. #22
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    No, they aren't necessary in our winters due to the temperatures and the lack of ice buildup on our roads typically (milder climates have more ice/sleet/freeze cycles).

    But theyre' very nice to have on those days when there is lots of ice, or if you're heading out on the highways and so on. They DO make a pretty large difference.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    It's funny...more and more people I talk to say "you don't need winter tires in Edmonton...the roads are always kept in great shape. it's a waste of money."

    For safety's sake I know that it's a good idea to have them (maybe I'm answering my own question)...but as a guy that doesn't have 6-700 bucks to put into tires...are they really TRULY nessecary?

    What are your thoughts??

    AW
    If you are doing alot of highway driving I would. The QE to the airport is like a sheet of ice in the winter. Otherwise, it's more a nice to have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluestreak View Post
    No. I believe most of you are answering for the Edmonton region.

    Coming from Southern Alberta, I know it isn't needed there most of the time. Lethbridge gets snow 2 months of the year.

    If it was made mandatory for areas of Alberta, then that's fine. But if I were still living in the South, I would be against the idea of having to spend extra cash on something I don't need.
    don't know about Lethbridge, but you need winter tires in calgary until the end of May to drive through all those crazy and almost weekly 15cm snow storms during Calgary's spring.

    True. But like I mentioned, I believe this wouldn't apply to Lethbridge or Medicine Hat. If this were done for every other region, then perhaps... maybe even use some of our Alberta "prosperity" funding to subsidize winter rubber.

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    Talking

    even though i think you really have answered your own question, I have to ask - if your life is worth less than 700 bucks, can i buy you to become my slave?

  26. #26
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluestreak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluestreak View Post
    No. I believe most of you are answering for the Edmonton region.

    Coming from Southern Alberta, I know it isn't needed there most of the time. Lethbridge gets snow 2 months of the year.

    If it was made mandatory for areas of Alberta, then that's fine. But if I were still living in the South, I would be against the idea of having to spend extra cash on something I don't need.
    don't know about Lethbridge, but you need winter tires in calgary until the end of May to drive through all those crazy and almost weekly 15cm snow storms during Calgary's spring.

    True. But like I mentioned, I believe this wouldn't apply to Lethbridge or Medicine Hat. If this were done for every other region, then perhaps... maybe even use some of our Alberta "prosperity" funding to subsidize winter rubber.
    I did some snooping around and according to Environment canada from the following links:
    http://www.climate.weatheroffice.ec....s=&StnId=2263&

    and

    http://www.climate.weatheroffice.ec....s=&StnId=1867&

    I conclude that Lethbridge needs as many winter tires as Edmonton.

    Here are the highlights:

    Lethbridge snow fall per month starting in January:

    Jan: 21.9 Feb: 13.5 March: 25.5 April: 16.3 May:4 June:0 July:0 Aug:0.8 Sept:2.1 Oct:10.4 Nov:17.3 Dec:18.8 YEAR TOTAL: 130.5

    Edmonton:
    Jan:24.5 Febr:15.8 March:16.8 April:13.4 May:3.5 June:0 July:0 Aug:0 Sept:1.5 Oct:7.8 Nov:17.9 Dec:22.3 YEAR TOTAL:123.5

    In fact, it would appear that Lethbridge needs more winter tires than Edmonton.

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    Your data is from 1971-2000.

    I was born there, I never heard of winter tires till I came up here 2 years ago, and trust me... while your data suggests that there in fact precipitation, it doesn't show that Southern Alberta is prevalent for Chinooks and radical temperature changes. It may snow there, but it typically melts in the next few days.

    The last White Christmas I remember was in 2002.

    I've shoveled snow more in Edmonton this past winter, than I have in Lethbridge in the last 10 years.

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    While I've used both All Seasons and Winter Tires, and I can say that in true ice and snow/slush, the Winters are superior, rarely have I "NEEDED" winter tires. I've run Blizzaks and Michelins and they are nice on pure ice, but I've run into pure black ice quite infrequently. I've plowed through the fields with nothing more than Goodyear Wilderness A/T's and never been stuck. Now, when I bought my new car last Feb, it had Gators on it, so they were absolutely useless in any snow - so Hi Po Summer tires - if you're in the ditch in the winter and you're running these, then charge more.

    Making the winters mandatory? You're looking at a person who would love mandatory retesting for your license, I would support forced inspections on cars that stall on roads, but I would also want incentives like lower insurance for sucessive passes on testing, documented proof of regular maintenance, a kick for buying winter tires, etc. Carrot and stick...not just a stick.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    I ride my bike in winter, and use studded "Schwalbe Marathon Winter" tires on my bike (just put them on yesterday, as you're supposed to ride 30-50 miles on clean pavement to break them in and help seat the studs). It makes a big difference on ice, where a regular tire would have me sliding all over the place. I still don't let them give me a false sense of security.

    The most important thing for me is riding more carefully and making sure I'm seen and noticed while riding on the street in winter. It's a combination of drivers driving with windows frosted up, not paying attention, it being dark much of the time I ride to or from work, the right side of the lanes being piled with snow and gravel, and drivers not expecting cyclists to be on the street in winter (though an estimated 40% of bike commuters continue year round).

    As for making winter tires mandatory, I tend to shy away from that sort of thing. There are drivers, I'm sure, who get winter tires and drive like idiots, and drivers who don't and drive responsibly.

    Someone on summer "slicks" probably won't get out of the driveway on the days winter tires are most needed. Hopefully, anyway.
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  30. #30

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    Well, things would be safer in theory, if everyone drove AWD vehicles as well. Should they be made mandatory? My concern, is that on the surface something is now "safer", but in reality, with more grip, people will get more confident - and will drive faster. I think all season tire technology has improved a lot, it wouldn't surprise me if todays all season tires are safer than winter tires of 20 years ago. All season is fine for inner city drivers - why force them to obtain capabilites that are really only relevant to those who live or work in the wop wops? At some point, we have to reach the conclusion that we can only bubble wrap people so much from their own stupid driving behaviour - I suspect the people who drive too carelessly for all seasons, are the same people who would drive too carelessly for winter tires, so overall, we would be no better off. The only winners, would be the tire manufacturers / dealers, I'm sure they'd be laughing all the way to the bank.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-10-2008 at 03:25 PM.

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    i gotta agree with Moahunter on this one. rarely is ice a problem for inner city driving, and the times it is, just drive slower.

  32. #32
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluestreak View Post
    Your data is from 1971-2000.

    I was born there, I never heard of winter tires till I came up here 2 years ago, and trust me... while your data suggests that there in fact precipitation, it doesn't show that Southern Alberta is prevalent for Chinooks and radical temperature changes. It may snow there, but it typically melts in the next few days.

    The last White Christmas I remember was in 2002.

    I've shoveled snow more in Edmonton this past winter, than I have in Lethbridge in the last 10 years.
    follow the links I provided. This is not my data. This is Environment Canada. The numbers are specifically cm of snowfall. Winter tires are needed precisely when it is snowing and in the couple of days after. A few days later the snow is cleared. And if it is sunny (which in Alberta it is almost all the time almost everywhere) the snow melts off of dark roads with heavy traffic. So, winter tires are needed as much there as they are needed here and also in Northern Alberta. This is not california or nevada. This is winter country and province.

  33. #33

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    I'd buy some but live in a condo and don't have anywhere appropriate to store them without renting a separate storage locker, which makes the cost prohibitive.

    Sorry, but until we ban smoking and being obese, both of which drain the public purse, nobody can use the whole "drivers on non-winter tires get into more accidents and thus cost the system more" theme.

  34. #34

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    Can I have "long overdue" and "only without a government subsidy" or now that governments are bailing out subprime mortgages and the world of derivative-backed finance do we have to be socialist about this too?
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    Evidently, there's a Quebec law coming into force on December 15 that makes winter tires mandatory in that province. Word is that the anticipated run on tires will create shortage of supply in other provinces. Can this be true, or is this a ploy to drive up prices?

  36. #36
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Transplanted_Edm View Post
    I'd buy some but live in a condo and don't have anywhere appropriate to store them without renting a separate storage locker, which makes the cost prohibitive.

    Sorry, but until we ban smoking and being obese, both of which drain the public purse, nobody can use the whole "drivers on non-winter tires get into more accidents and thus cost the system more" theme.
    I sincerely doubt that renting of another locker would make this cost prohibitive. Certainly more expensive, but to call it "prohibitive" is very much over the top of reasonable. if renting the storage locker will devastate your finances--you cannot afford the car and the condo. time to downsize.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Would mandatory winter tires in alberta be a good idea?
    yes, but it'll never happen because most drivers are way too negligent. you want deadbeats that drive 15+ year old cars to spend $600 on tires??!!! lol... good luck... they'll sell their first born before indulging in the luxory of new tires...

  38. #38
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    i see what you are saying and I agree with most of it. one thing about these cars that are 15 years old or more is that some people are actually able to keep them in good mechanical order so that they don't have to get a new one. if a person knows what he or she is doing, they may not need to change a car for a very long time. these people don't mind spending a few hundred dollars on a part as long as they can keep their car running well. good tires is one of the things a person looking after his or her car would see as an essential part of keeping the vehicle running well. so, $600 on a new set is a way to avoid buying a plastic piece of ... new vehicle and keeping the old member of the family.

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    IIRC, studded tires are legal in alberta from October to March or something like that. they make a monstrous difference.

    I don't wear my sandals in the winter, nor do I wear my winter coat in the summer. It's a seasonal thing. Why would tires not be different?

    I kept my winter tires on the balcony in my condo. Locked them up. There's no problems.

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    i see what you are saying and I agree with most of it. one thing about these cars that are 15 years old or more is that some people are actually able to keep them in good mechanical order so that they don't have to get a new one. if a person knows what he or she is doing, they may not need to change a car for a very long time. these people don't mind spending a few hundred dollars on a part as long as they can keep their car running well. good tires is one of the things a person looking after his or her car would see as an essential part of keeping the vehicle running well. so, $600 on a new set is a way to avoid buying a plastic piece of ... new vehicle and keeping the old member of the family.
    these people you speak of are, i think, the slim minority. i think an old car on the road is as if not more dangerous than a car without proper tires during winter. plus they contaminate 100x times more and are an eyesore. I am all for govt credits to buy newer cars and winter tires, its for the greater good.
    Some cities in Europe (Munich, Frankfurt, Madrid, these are the ones i read about) do not allow cars older than 20 years in their metro areas, unless you have a special permit (like those who have collectors' cars). And people who get newer, greener cars get amazing tax incentives. this should be implemented in Canada, and i don't see a reason why Edmonton can't set the example first.
    On the tires, i bet you ALL car owners in the city would change their tires of the City announced there would be a $200 credit on their property taxes. Why would the city not do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Would mandatory winter tires in alberta be a good idea?
    yes, but it'll never happen because most drivers are way too negligent. you want deadbeats that drive 15+ year old cars to spend $600 on tires??!!! lol... good luck... they'll sell their first born before indulging in the luxory of new tires...

    So apparently I'm a deadbeat b/c I drive 2 16yr old cars and choose not to invest in winter tires?

    Winter tires are a luxury, not a necessity. There are many people who don't invest in it and get by just fine.

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    @ Cigarhippo:

    My beloved Volvo is 28 years old, Passed aircare in Vancouver just over 3 years ago with flying colors and is tuned & maintained to run as efficiently as possible. It has 360,000 km's on it, The 2.3L fuel injected engine is all original with the exception of a high dwell cam, K & N filter and low backpressure exhaust, I do valve adjustments every 15k kms and it does not burn or leak a drop of oil.

    How many new Kias or Hyundais would be built, driven into the ground and scrapped by one owner over a 28 year/ 360,000km timespan, And what are the environmental consequences of cheap new cars built in countries with loose environmental laws ?

    And yes, I dropped a mint on new summer tires for that crummy old car early this year.
    Last edited by 240GLT; 24-10-2008 at 12:07 PM.

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    @ Cigarhippo:

    My beloved Volvo is 28 years old, Passed aircare in Vancouver just over 3 years ago with flying colors and is tuned & maintained to run as efficiently as possible. It has 360,000 km's on it, The 2.3L fuel injected engine is all original with the exception of a high dwell cam, K & N filter and low backpressure exhaust, I do valve adjustments every 15k kms and it does not burn or leak a drop of oil.

    How many new Kias or Hyundais would be built, driven into the ground and scrapped by one owner over a 28 year/ 360,000km timespan, And what are the environmental consequences of cheap new cars built in countries with loose environmental laws ?

    And yes, I dropped a mint on new summer tires for that crummy old car early this year.
    I have no doubt your car is far better than a newer kia of mitsubishi, etc. and kudos for keeping it in top notch shape. but you're the minority. the sheer amount of beaters in this city is astounding and watching them swerve and swim like one-eyed fish on the city roads during winter is a scary sight. I would love to see a law banning cars that are 15+ old. I would have to surrender one of my vehicles and i'd have no problem with that whatsoever. i want a cleaner and safer to drive city and such a law would eliminate hundreds of scrap material and tons of CO2 from the air we breathe.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluestreak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Would mandatory winter tires in alberta be a good idea?
    yes, but it'll never happen because most drivers are way too negligent. you want deadbeats that drive 15+ year old cars to spend $600 on tires??!!! lol... good luck... they'll sell their first born before indulging in the luxory of new tires...

    So apparently I'm a deadbeat b/c I drive 2 16yr old cars and choose not to invest in winter tires?

    Winter tires are a luxury, not a necessity. There are many people who don't invest in it and get by just fine.
    thats your own opinion. winter tires are NOT a luxury. they can prevent you and the others you share the road with from potentially fatal accidents. Its mandatory in cities in Finland, Sweden and others. The research has been made that winter tires do increase safety exponentially,its a fact.
    So, if you value your own safety and if you were considerate to the safety of others you would consider getting new winter tires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    @ Cigarhippo:

    My beloved Volvo is 28 years old, Passed aircare in Vancouver just over 3 years ago with flying colors and is tuned & maintained to run as efficiently as possible. It has 360,000 km's on it, The 2.3L fuel injected engine is all original with the exception of a high dwell cam, K & N filter and low backpressure exhaust, I do valve adjustments every 15k kms and it does not burn or leak a drop of oil.

    How many new Kias or Hyundais would be built, driven into the ground and scrapped by one owner over a 28 year/ 360,000km timespan, And what are the environmental consequences of cheap new cars built in countries with loose environmental laws ?

    And yes, I dropped a mint on new summer tires for that crummy old car early this year.
    I have no doubt your car is far better than a newer kia of mitsubishi, etc. and kudos for keeping it in top notch shape. but you're the minority. the sheer amount of beaters in this city is astounding and watching them swerve and swim like one-eyed fish on the city roads during winter is a scary sight. I would love to see a law banning cars that are 15+ old. I would have to surrender one of my vehicles and i'd have no problem with that whatsoever. i want a cleaner and safer to drive city and such a law would eliminate hundreds of scrap material and tons of CO2 from the air we breathe.
    Why not implement an emmission testing program similar to aircare, rather than arbitrarily forcing people to give up perfectly fine vehicles ? Maybe once a vehicle is over 10 years old, it needs to be aircared and pass a basic safety inspection once a year.

    As the owner of an old car that would easily pass both, I'd welcome an initiative like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    thats your own opinion. winter tires are NOT a luxury. they can prevent you and the others you share the road with from potentially fatal accidents. Its mandatory in cities in Finland, Sweden and others. The research has been made that winter tires do increase safety exponentially,its a fact.
    So, if you value your own safety and if you were considerate to the safety of others you would consider getting new winter tires.

    Winter tires are a luxury. Perhaps you failed to see the point that either way, people still get by w/o them. It is NOT a necessity at this point, so to me and those who feel they do not need them, they are a luxury. I got by w/o them for 5 yrs as a student, and I am still very much alive.

    The age of a vehicle has little to do with winter accidents. Whether you drive a 15 year old POS, or a brand new Hummer, if you do not drive according to the conditions, you are just as likely to cause or participate in an accident.

    Making them mandatory can have an adverse effect of certain groups in the Alberta population, e.g. students, low-income households, seniors with fixed incomes, people from Southern Alberta, etc.. lol.

    Do I agree they help? Yes. Should they be mandatory? In certain places of Alberta, fine... but do not make it mandatory for the entire province.

  47. #47

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    Use all season tires, changing tires in the spring and fall is expensive and/or time consuming.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  48. #48
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    People got by without wearing seatbelts fine. Just don't get in an accident.

    Driving has become a god given right in this province. Which might explain the sprawl. It's a privilege and it comes with conveniences, and with costs.

    Changing tires in the spring and fall takes all of 30 mins in your garage. When you buy the tires, spend $50 on a proper lift and axle stand kit from Canadian tire. If you can change a flat tire, this is easier.

  49. #49

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    ^ Tell a lady to do that and see if she will...
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    ^ Tell a lady to do that and see if she will...
    Now, now Thomas I happen to believe I am a lady and I have changed my share of tires in my day. Dressed up no, forty below and the vehicle is outside, no but other than that I will change one. My biggest problem is getting the lugs off if they have been put on by a professional (too tight).

    The best tires you can afford is simply good sense, as no matter the season good tires / great tread can save lives.

  51. #51
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    I don't know that winter tires are of that much benefit. I can see the sense of using them in fresh snowy conditions, but as most of Edmonton's roads are hard packed ice for much of the winter, the treads don't offer sufficient grip on those surfaces. Yes, I know the rubber compound is 'stickier' on winter tires, but all-seasons combined with adjusted driving habits will get you through the winter quite nicely. Just don't drive like it's summer.

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    I run all seasons on my full size Bronco 4x4 every winter, with no problems.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    ^ Tell a lady to do that and see if she will...
    If you mount your winters on rims and invest in a trolley jack and a good lug wrench, anyone can change a set of tires in less than half an hour, With a little basic instruction for the less mechanically inclined.

  54. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluestreak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Would mandatory winter tires in alberta be a good idea?
    yes, but it'll never happen because most drivers are way too negligent. you want deadbeats that drive 15+ year old cars to spend $600 on tires??!!! lol... good luck... they'll sell their first born before indulging in the luxory of new tires...

    So apparently I'm a deadbeat b/c I drive 2 16yr old cars and choose not to invest in winter tires?

    Winter tires are a luxury, not a necessity. There are many people who don't invest in it and get by just fine.
    For sure.

    I've driven about 900K kilometres, closing in on a million with probably close to half of that in winter driving conditions. Never had snow tires on yet. All season radials. NOT ONE winter driving accident.

    Why?

    Defensive driving.

    I drive a subcompact so I'm careful and if theres ever some unavoidable accident because of some ***** in a truck then it doesn't really matter whether I have snow tires on or not does it?

    I tend to look at winter driving with a zero mistakes or driving error mentality and actually having all seasons on and not the false handling security of Winter tires probably lets me know the road conditions faster.

    Plus I see a lot of people out there that have snow tires and that this just means they can push the speed envelope that much more in bad driving conditions.

  55. #55

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    I have also had no problems at all with all season tires in the city. Maybe if I were commuting on expressways every day I might feel different, but I doubt it. I think often on these threads, peoples views tend to be a justification that what they are doing is "correct" - i.e. that they made the right decision. In my own opinion, I think a large percentage of the people who use winter tires don't really need them, they are doing so simply because:

    1. Marketing / advertising has sucked them in (I get this marketing every year at this time - it goes in the garbage), or
    2. They are not very confident / capable drivers (i.e. are unable to drive effectively for conditions, slowing down / reacting correctly to a loss of traction / keeping appropriate winter following distances), or
    3. They are confident drivers who want to go fast in winter and show off, which winter tires will help facilitate.

    Now, in saying that, some people do need them, they actually drive long distances on expressways, and accordingly, it makes sense (minority).

    Just my take But then, I don't have winter tires, have had zero problems without winter tires, and accordingly, am biased by that decision, which I think has been a smart one. But, it would $#% me off, if the marketing lobby of tire manufacturers / retailers forced a change to make someone richer at my expense.
    Last edited by moahunter; 24-10-2008 at 11:17 PM.

  56. #56

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    Last edited by Medwards; 24-10-2008 at 11:15 PM.

  57. #57

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    We all know winter tires are more capable in snow, just like AWD is more capable (although arguably less important). If it were a race, the winter tires would win, just like an AWD that has good stoping distances (and vehicles vary widley in this) would have an advantage. But it is not a race in the city. There is absolutley nothing in those videos though that takes into account:

    1. Keeping an appropriate following distance
    2. Driving at the appropriate speed
    3. Being able to react correctly in a slide.

    All of those driving abilities, in my opinion, are way more important than whether one has the latest and greatest tire technology. There is always some capability that can make a vehicle perform better in snow, be it AWD, winter tires, etc., but at the end of the day, what matters is the driver. Forcing careful drivers to pay because of those who aren't, isn't IMO a smart policy, it will just install false confidence and make money for the tire manufactures / auto clubs who push them.
    Last edited by moahunter; 24-10-2008 at 11:38 PM.

  58. #58
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    So you don't think that a braking distance 50% longer (at least in the video) is going to lead to more accidents? Or rather, reducing braking distance significantly wouldn't lead to a drop in accidents? What about the statistic mentioned in the CBC article that says that the 10-15% of people in Quebec who don't have winter tires are involved in 35%+ of the accidents?

    Yes all of the habits you mentioned are important. But they cannot rescind the laws of physics.

  59. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by raz0469 View Post
    So you don't think that a braking distance 50% longer (at least in the video) is going to lead to more accidents?
    If that were true - then in summer, a Ford GT or a Ferrari, would be much safer than a mini-van. They have better than 50% shorter stopping distance. So should we make everybody buy sports cars with carbon fiber break pads? No - we don't have to. For, if there's nothing to hit, physics tells us, we won't hit anything. If you drive defensively with enough stopping distance for your vehicle, then there is no difference as to whether you have a super sports car with great breaking ability, or a mediocre large SUV. The problem is when people don't do that, they overdrive for the conditions - regardless of the vehicle they drive, or the tires they use. If someone doesn't feel they have the skills to do this - then fine, go ahead and buy winter tires (even though you don't need it on an inner city commute in Edmonton). It won't keep you safe if you continue to tailgate, or travel overfast through a corner.
    Last edited by moahunter; 25-10-2008 at 04:13 PM.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by raz0469 View Post
    So you don't think that a braking distance 50% longer (at least in the video) is going to lead to more accidents?
    If that were true - then in summer, a Ford GT or a Ferrari, would be much safer than a mini-van. They have better than 50% shorter stopping distance. So should we make everybody buy sports cars with carbon fiber break pads? No - we don't have to. For, if there's nothing to hit, physics tells us, we won't hit anything. If you drive defensively with enough stopping distance for your vehicle, then there is no difference as to whether you have a super sports car with great breaking ability, or a mediocre large SUV. The problem is when people don't do that, they overdrive for the conditions - regardless of the vehicle they drive, or the tires they use. If someone doesn't feel they have the skills to do this - then fine, go ahead and buy winter tires (even though you don't need it on an inner city commute in Edmonton). It won't keep you safe if you continue to tailgate, or travel overfast through a corner.
    good post. only thing is though (No - we don't have to. For, if there's nothing to hit) our city roads have been designed a certain way where allot of breaking and conjestion of vehicles is a problem. The roads are so slick from all the stops and starts specially at intersectionson it don't matter if you got winter tires on or not your not going to stop on sheer ice. Matter of fact the worste thing to do is break as you lose all control of steering best thing to do is let you foot off the gas and steer out of harms way if you can.

  61. #61

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    ^ let the foot of the gas, down shift, and steer out the way...

    I couldn't imagine winter driving without manual.

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    I sincerely doubt that renting of another locker would make this cost prohibitive. Certainly more expensive, but to call it "prohibitive" is very much over the top of reasonable. if renting the storage locker will devastate your finances--you cannot afford the car and the condo. time to downsize.
    Of course the cost of the tires and even the potential locker rental wouldn't "devastate" my finances. I say it would be prohibitively expensive for me considering the perceived benefit I feel I would or would not get. I drive ~12000 km a year, well below the average, all within the city, and for winter highway driving we use my girlfriend's car which does have winter tires and all wheel drive.

    And we have to get back to the question of why you even care about whether I use winter tires or want to pass judgment on my finances. The only possible reason I can think of is due to an expected reduction of my impact on the costs of the "system" meaning either health care or insurance. Which takes me right back to the argument about obesity and smoking. As long as either of those two things are legal, then there is no possible rationale for imposing mandatory winter tires.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by raz0469 View Post
    So you don't think that a braking distance 50% longer (at least in the video) is going to lead to more accidents?
    If that were true - then in summer, a Ford GT or a Ferrari, would be much safer than a mini-van. They have better than 50% shorter stopping distance. So should we make everybody buy sports cars with carbon fiber break pads? No - we don't have to. For, if there's nothing to hit, physics tells us, we won't hit anything. If you drive defensively with enough stopping distance for your vehicle, then there is no difference as to whether you have a super sports car with great breaking ability, or a mediocre large SUV. The problem is when people don't do that, they overdrive for the conditions - regardless of the vehicle they drive, or the tires they use. If someone doesn't feel they have the skills to do this - then fine, go ahead and buy winter tires (even though you don't need it on an inner city commute in Edmonton). It won't keep you safe if you continue to tailgate, or travel overfast through a corner.
    Yes, most can drive all seasons in a safe manner if they go slow enough and ensure plenty of stopping distance....but one could also drive a dangerously loaded vehical and trailer in a safe manner by going slow and leaving more room, does that make it right?

    If I can travel equally as safe as you, but go 15ish percent faster and not leave as much of a gap because I have tires recommended for the situation, shouldn't there be some pressure on you too step it up also?

  64. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    thats your own opinion. winter tires are NOT a luxury. they can prevent you and the others you share the road with from potentially fatal accidents. Its mandatory in cities in Finland, Sweden and others. The research has been made that winter tires do increase safety exponentially,its a fact.
    So, if you value your own safety and if you were considerate to the safety of others you would consider getting new winter tires.
    Of course winters tires are a luxury here. I define this with 30 yrs winter driving experience in this location. In that time I haven't ONCE left the road, required a tow, got stuck in snow where I couldn't get out etc. Like I said above I've had no accidents in that time and avoid them due to just being a very astute driver. Winter tires or not.

    An example. A few yrs ago a snow birder was passing me hauling his big *** trailer as we approached the crest of a rail overpass on highway 21. Road conditions were very slippery/greasy with blowing snow across road. Why he was even driving this big rig I have no idea. Thing is I signalled to him to slow down and flashed lights and honked horn and he wouldn't. He of course lost it on the crest of the road and spun/jacknifed all over finally ending up blocking two entire lanes of traffic. I was already checking traffic behind me and really slowing down BEFORE the accident and then saw the jackknifed rig ahead that had just passed me(it was dusk but you see the headlights and made a decision to pull over on crest of hill and stop on side of road with hazard lights blinking and got out of my car and ran up road for fear that everybody was going to pile into this mess. I assisted the driver when traffic had stopped and it wasn't suicidal to do so. Not only did I avoid the accident but my thinking saved a 30 car pile up that day. It of course saved my life. It would've been brutal as the Truck and trailer were spread eagled just over the crest of hill where approaching drivers wouldn't see. With any less thinking I would be smack in the middle of that carnage.

    The above has nothing to do with type of tires but more just good sense and driving experience.

    But a real evaluation of whether snow tires should be mandatory or optional here considers first what road conditions drivers here encounter.

    1)We live on the prairies here in Edmonton. Almost all level driving conditions, Only hills at river and well sanded. This limits the challenge and increases uniformity somewhat.

    2)This is not Quebec or BC or NFLD where climactic conditions, and freeze thaw cycles and terrain make winter driving much more difficult. If I lived and drove in those locations in winter condition I'd use snow tires.

    3)Its possible in this region as an Edmonton resident to entirely avoid highways or freeways on bad days in your commute. People that do commute out of town a lot should maybe consider snow tires. But in the city I just can't see it.

    4)Nature of hazard. The only road condition I've encountered here that gives me challenge is the greasy/icy, or black ice condition. Or a thin layer of snow concealing such a condition. Without snow tires I actually note and feel this condition easier. I can sense a safer threshold of speed and handling. For instance when 12 cars are piled up off road in a sloped highway exitway(Highway 21->Highway16 exit being perfect example.) and half of them probably have snowtires I already know what the road condition will be like because I'm noting it my entire trip. I approach such an area where cars are offroaded(I can tell this spot will be a nightmare 30 kms away just by knowing road condition)and slow down to about 40-50K approaching ramp while searching for the snow shoulder that will provide me with traction that prevents gravity from pulling me right off the banked incline.

    I resist the urge to wave at the 4 wheel drives parked in snow banks off the road all waiting for tows.

    Common sense and good driving skills are mandatory in winter in Edmonton.

    Snow tires are not.
    Last edited by Replacement; 26-10-2008 at 11:43 AM.

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by LindseyT View Post
    Yes, most can drive all seasons in a safe manner if they go slow enough and ensure plenty of stopping distance....but one could also drive a dangerously loaded vehical and trailer in a safe manner by going slow and leaving more room, does that make it right?

    If I can travel equally as safe as you, but go 15ish percent faster and not leave as much of a gap because I have tires recommended for the situation, shouldn't there be some pressure on you too step it up also?
    There better not be.

    Because the chief mandate in challenging winter driving conditions should be to arrive safely. The priority should not be arriving faster. EVER.

    If you have that as a mindset driving in poor road conditions then you have the wrong mindset which proper tires won't save.
    Last edited by Replacement; 26-10-2008 at 11:39 AM.

  66. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by LindseyT View Post
    If I can travel equally as safe as you, but go 15ish percent faster and not leave as much of a gap because I have tires recommended for the situation, shouldn't there be some pressure on you too step it up also?
    Well, there's a certain twisted logic to that. I should be forced to pay $600 or so, to possibly let you drive 15% faster on your commute. My commute in winter, which is about 15 minutes (about 7 in summer), will decline by, what, about 2 minutes? Actually, I don't think it would decline at all, because the same, sometimes too careful drivers will be blocking both lanes, with or without winter tires. We might as well extend your logic though, and:

    1. Require everybody to drive AWD vehicles
    2. Legalize slick tires, and require everyone to use them when it is sunny but no rain (this will increase speeds, just like making everyone use winter tires for the odd day when they are advantageous in Edmonton)
    3. Require everybody to keep no more than a 1 second distance (although - I don't think that one will actually get you there any faster...)...

    I remember reading recently, how for all the safety advances on vehicles, which have been huge (a car today may be 50% safer than one 10 years ago), the overall rate of serious accidents has not gone down by 50%. The reason is, that these advances are insulating people - actually making them feel safer, so they are drving faster and less carefully. Yes, safety is important, but perspective is as well. No amount of bubble wrap is going to make driving 100% safe, and while winter tires may, on the half dozen or so they are noticeably more effective in Edmonton (and it is only a few days with all the sand and salt thats thrown down, especailly for inner city drivers who don't use expressways), make unskilled drivers feel a bit safer, or boneheads drivers drive faster, I'm not going to let the tire industry force that one on me without a fight.
    Last edited by moahunter; 26-10-2008 at 12:43 PM.

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    I would say the best investment for me was when I turned 16 and got my license I took the AMA defensive winter course. I think it should be mandatory , waiting to learn on your own is stupid. It takes practical experience to feel comfortable.

  68. #68

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    Another idea would be, instead of forcing everbody with a car to pay, say, $600 each, for these tires, what if we instead taxed them all an additional $600? I don't know how many cars there are in Edmonton, but say there are 200,000 without winter tires. 200,000 x $600 = 120 million dollars. Over say, 10 years, 1.2 billion dollars would pay for an LRT line... Just puting this cash grab in a bit of perspective - do we really want to give this much money to tire manufacturers instead of public transit, or another priority (admitidley it will be a bit less money for tire makers as people won't buy winter tires every year, but I was conservative on the 200,000)? No wonder they are lobying hard for it...

    PS. as an aside - car registrations are very cheap in Alberta relative to other countries. I wouldn't have a problem if it was raised to pay for some more LRT lines and similar. Even a couple of hundred dollars a year would make a huge difference to traffic saftey by funding transit and maybe getting some of the older cars de-registered.
    Last edited by moahunter; 26-10-2008 at 04:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Another idea would be, instead of forcing everbody with a car to pay, say, $600 each, for these tires, what if we instead taxed them all an additional $600? I don't know how many cars there are in Edmonton, but say there are 200,000 without winter tires. 200,000 x $600 = 120 million dollars. Over say, 10 years, 1.2 billion dollars would pay for an LRT line... Just puting this cash grab in a bit of perspective - do we really want to give this much money to tire manufacturers instead of public transit, or another priority (admitidley it will be a bit less money for tire makers as people won't buy winter tires every year, but I was conservative on the 200,000)? No wonder they are lobying hard for it...

    PS. as an aside - car registrations are very cheap in Alberta relative to other countries. I wouldn't have a problem if it was raised to pay for some more LRT lines and similar. Even a couple of hundred dollars a year would make a huge difference to traffic saftey by funding transit and maybe getting some of the older cars de-registered.
    Clearly Moa you have way to much common sense I can't believe your a Albertan.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Another idea would be, instead of forcing everbody with a car to pay, say, $600 each, for these tires, what if we instead taxed them all an additional $600? I don't know how many cars there are in Edmonton, but say there are 200,000 without winter tires. 200,000 x $600 = 120 million dollars. Over say, 10 years, 1.2 billion dollars would pay for an LRT line... Just puting this cash grab in a bit of perspective - do we really want to give this much money to tire manufacturers instead of public transit, or another priority (admitidley it will be a bit less money for tire makers as people won't buy winter tires every year, but I was conservative on the 200,000)? No wonder they are lobying hard for it...

    PS. as an aside - car registrations are very cheap in Alberta relative to other countries. I wouldn't have a problem if it was raised to pay for some more LRT lines and similar. Even a couple of hundred dollars a year would make a huge difference to traffic saftey by funding transit and maybe getting some of the older cars de-registered.
    Not just tires but all the gasoline, brake jobs, oil changes, struts, windsheilds, insurance, we could even ripp out roads and not pay all the maintnance etc would save billions enouph to build the best LRT in the world.

    probelem with that it would be like Nationalizing the transportation sector they would never allow it as long as we are free market.

    I just crunched the numbers and I could afford to contribute over $8000 a year just myself to transit if I was not forced to drive.
    Last edited by DDD; 26-10-2008 at 05:27 PM.

  71. #71

    Default Wait A Minute!

    Can we all just take one step backwards and think about this for a minute?

    Should we not be looking at the root problem instead of a band aide? It should be insisted that during driver education that more emphasis be put on winter driving skills. I personally have taken several winter driving skills courses including skid control and have NEVER been in an accident in the 24 years I have driven and lived in Alberta. With the proper driving course, you not only learn how to deal with different driving conditions, but also how to spot the drivers that are not educated properly and stay clear of them. Don't get me wrong winter tires do work, but if people would just apply some common sense when driving in the winter, this would dramatically reduce the number of accidents.

    Creating a law that forces drivers to buy winter tires is absurd. I like the idea of the insurance companies introducing a discount for people who want to buy winter tires.

    I for one will fight this law should it ever get passed.

    Oh Ya, for those of you that say you can get winter tires installed and mounted on steel rims for ~$600.00 you must be driving a Civic with wheel barrel tires on it. I have priced out both of my vehicles, and to get the lowest end winter tires on a set of the cheapest steel rims I can find, I am over $1,100 per vehicle. In this cash strapped economy, I don't have $2,200 just collecting dust. So who is going to help subsidize me, or would I have to gamble that I don’t get caught?

    Let’s all just stop and think a little. Don’t we have enough laws in Canada? Lets focus on things like Driving while Under the Influence, talking on cell phones while driving, etc… These are much more troubling, and I bet if you talk to any police, they will tell you about much bigger problems on our roads and hiways.

  72. #72

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    What about the

    "all season"

    tires with the

    "snow flake"

    symbol on them?



    "The story of the mountain and the snowflake"

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/2007/0...-snowflake.htm



    (eg. I have some kind of Norwegian or Swedish or Finish Nokian "all season" snow flake labelled tires on one vehicle.)

    .
    Last edited by KC; 17-12-2009 at 02:41 PM.

  73. #73

    Default Winter Tire Logo

    I can't say for sure, but I am pretty sure the symbol that you need to look for when looking at winter tires is the mountain with a snow flake. Whenever I have looked, at winter tires over the years, one company is always at the top, and that is Nokian. They make a great tire.

    One thing to keep in mind is that your tires are the only part of your vehicle that touch the ground, so I am always willing to research tires a lot to ensure my family is safest. People spend lots of money on improved brake systems, cold air intakes, exhaust systems with out considering their tires.

    Please note that I have nothing to do with automotive retail or parts in any way, I just believe in being well informed. Hope this is helpful.

  74. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    On the tires, i bet you ALL car owners in the city would change their tires of the City announced there would be a $200 credit on their property taxes. Why would the city not do that?
    Not ALL car owners pay property tax. I think if they are really serious about it there would be a mail in rebate to the city for winter tires.

    I would love winter tires to be mandatory because I've always use them and all-season are no good here in the winter but not everyone can afford them.

    Make it mandatory for trucks and taxis first, that's who those laws are really for anyway.

  75. #75

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    This is being discussed on CBC radio right now. I just heard something very misleading. The AMA guys said that having a set of snow tires doesn't lead to any extra cost outside of the initial purchase price, since you'll still get all the life out of each set of tires.

    Wrong!

    Annual switch over costs are costs significant costs. Changing, balancing, etc. Buying a set of wheels / rims to lessen the switch over costs are still significant costs.

    Additionally some people often have to pay storage costs.

    Lastly, people don't always keep their cars to the maximum lifespan of two sets of tires and so they will very likely suffer a loss on the sale of one set of tires.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    This is being discussed on CBC radio right now. I just heard something very misleading. The AMA guys said that having a set of snow tires doesn't lead to any extra cost outside of the initial purchase price, since you'll still get all the life out of each set of tires.

    Wrong!

    Annual switch over costs are costs significant costs. Changing, balancing, etc. Buying a set of wheels / rims to lessen the switch over costs are still significant costs.

    Additionally some people often have to pay storage costs.

    Lastly, people don't always keep their cars to the maximum lifespan of two sets of tires and so they will very likely suffer a loss on the sale of one set of tires.
    I'm sure they meant that the initial purchase price included rims and balancing. I don't know why anyone would not do that.
    Changing tires takes about an hour. The required tools are already included with the car. A used car which is sold with an extra set of rims and winter tires will sell for more than the same thing without. Maybe not enough to capture the full depreciated value of the tires/rims, but certainly something.

    All weather tires which don't require changeover are certainly an option for 80% of the private vehicles on the road.

  77. #77

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    I'm planning rolling on all-weathers this winter & buying some new summer tires on bigger wheels in the spring. Then I'll swap the all-weathers out for winter tires on my OEM rims. Between my short commute down busy streets, my AWD & generally cautious driving habits I figure I'll be OK.
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  78. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    This is being discussed on CBC radio right now. I just heard something very misleading. The AMA guys said that having a set of snow tires doesn't lead to any extra cost outside of the initial purchase price, since you'll still get all the life out of each set of tires.

    Wrong!

    Annual switch over costs are costs significant costs. Changing, balancing, etc. Buying a set of wheels / rims to lessen the switch over costs are still significant costs.

    Additionally some people often have to pay storage costs.

    Lastly, people don't always keep their cars to the maximum lifespan of two sets of tires and so they will very likely suffer a loss on the sale of one set of tires.
    The costs aren't that significant. Costco does the swapover on your existing rims for $50. Twice a year plus membership is $150. Compare to the cost of insurance deductibles or injuries in the case of an accident, and it's downright frugal. Prices of tires at Costco tend to be quite a bit cheaper than anywhere else, so the costs compared to buying any rubber, even new all season, anywhere else are largely mitigated.

    And even if it cost more, winter tires have a massive impact on the road, and with 120+ accidents in a single day last week, the cost savings to us all is immense.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Talk about thread necro...

    Steel rims are cheap spread over 4-5 years or if you drive minimal amount, simply don't change over your tires and buy new ones every 4 years or so. People should price this stuff into a car when purchasing it anyways. If you can't afford it, buy a cheaper car. Not rocket science.

    We have it so easy in Alberta. Back out in Nova Scotia, after your car is more than three years old, welcome to vehicle inspection every one or two years depending on the type of vehicle you own. Rarely do you see a vehicle older than 10 years old out there. It becomes cost prohibitive to keep them on the road when there is a checklist of things a page long that have to get fixed before it is roadworthy. Some of the crap you see on the roads out here makes you wonder.
    Last edited by Moodib; 18-10-2016 at 04:12 PM.

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    If we were to copy BC's law, very few people would actually need to change anything. They consider standard all season tires (marked M+S) as acceptable winter tires.

  81. #81

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    I don't think winter tires should be mandatory. What should be mandatory is tires with decent treads on them. If a cop stops someone for a traffic offence give them a warning if their tires are looking a bit on the bald side. Or a fine of the cost of one tire. Don't force winter tires, enforce on bald tires.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  82. #82

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    Brand new crappy all season tires are no better than bald tires on snow and ice. This isn't all about traction while going, a huge part of winter compounds is the ability to stop. While not being able to get going might be an inconvenience at an intersection, not being able to stop is what can kill you or someone else, and all seasons don't work at all on ice in cold temps.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    I see the annual snow tire flame war has been initiated.

    Not sure it needs to be mandatory but personally we always switch over to snow tires in the winter. They're on their own rims and Kal Tire flips them for free for us.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  84. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moodib View Post
    Talk about thread necro...

    Steel rims are cheap spread over 4-5 years or if you drive minimal amount, simply don't change over your tires and buy new ones every 4 years or so. People should price this stuff into a car when purchasing it anyways. If you can't afford it, buy a cheaper car. Not rocket science.

    We have it so easy in Alberta. Back out in Nova Scotia, after your car is more than three years old, welcome to vehicle inspection every one or two years depending on the type of vehicle you own. Rarely do you see a vehicle older than 10 years old out there. It becomes cost prohibitive to keep them on the road when there is a checklist of things a page long that have to get fixed before it is roadworthy. Some of the crap you see on the roads out here makes you wonder.
    The junk we allow on the road here is beyond scary.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Brand new crappy all season tires are no better than bald tires on snow and ice. This isn't all about traction while going, a huge part of winter compounds is the ability to stop. While not being able to get going might be an inconvenience at an intersection, not being able to stop is what can kill you or someone else, and all seasons don't work at all on ice in cold temps.
    By all accounts even good or great winter tires do not work on sheer ice, nothing seems to be able to grab onto ice. Even if you have 4 wheel drive and good winter tires sheer ice is going to take you anyway. Once you are in a skid on ice it's just about impossible to stop sliding, you have to hit the ditch or something else to stop. I realize that winter tires are made of different compounds but mother nature can and has over ridding a lot of that.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  86. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Brand new crappy all season tires are no better than bald tires on snow and ice. This isn't all about traction while going, a huge part of winter compounds is the ability to stop. While not being able to get going might be an inconvenience at an intersection, not being able to stop is what can kill you or someone else, and all seasons don't work at all on ice in cold temps.
    By all accounts even good or great winter tires do not work on sheer ice, nothing seems to be able to grab onto ice. Even if you have 4 wheel drive and good winter tires sheer ice is going to take you anyway. Once you are in a skid on ice it's just about impossible to stop sliding, you have to hit the ditch or something else to stop. I realize that winter tires are made of different compounds but mother nature can and has over ridding a lot of that.
    None of that is true at all. Good winter tires make a night and day difference stopping on ice. Orders of magnitude better than crappy all seasons.

    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  87. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Brand new crappy all season tires are no better than bald tires on snow and ice. This isn't all about traction while going, a huge part of winter compounds is the ability to stop. While not being able to get going might be an inconvenience at an intersection, not being able to stop is what can kill you or someone else, and all seasons don't work at all on ice in cold temps.
    By all accounts even good or great winter tires do not work on sheer ice, nothing seems to be able to grab onto ice. Even if you have 4 wheel drive and good winter tires sheer ice is going to take you anyway. Once you are in a skid on ice it's just about impossible to stop sliding, you have to hit the ditch or something else to stop. I realize that winter tires are made of different compounds but mother nature can and has over ridding a lot of that.
    None of that is true at all. Good winter tires make a night and day difference stopping on ice. Orders of magnitude better than crappy all seasons. At the 2:05 and 3:05 markers that is illustrated very clearly.

    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Order of magnitude difference would mean that they stop in 1/10th the distance. I agree with the sentiment, but let's not exaggerate too much! Although 1/2 the distance is pretty impressive. I'm a big believer in winters myself, and have had them since I was a teenager. They've certainly saved my bacon a few times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    I see the annual snow tire flame war has been initiated.

    Not sure it needs to be mandatory but personally we always switch over to snow tires in the winter. They're on their own rims and Kal Tire flips them for free for us.
    I'll just reiterate what I've posted in the dozen other snow tire threads.

    I've been driving with Nokian all-weather tires for many years now, and won't go back to anything else. Works great in the winter, can still withstand 35 degree heat in the summer, and I don't have to swap them out twice a year. I also know that winter tires and AWD systems are not a license to drive like an jackass on snow and ice, thus I still exercise caution in rough conditions.
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  90. #90

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    And along with tires, don't forget to lube up appropriately for the season:

    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Moodib View Post
    Talk about thread necro...

    Steel rims are cheap spread over 4-5 years or if you drive minimal amount, simply don't change over your tires and buy new ones every 4 years or so. People should price this stuff into a car when purchasing it anyways. If you can't afford it, buy a cheaper car. Not rocket science.

    We have it so easy in Alberta. Back out in Nova Scotia, after your car is more than three years old, welcome to vehicle inspection every one or two years depending on the type of vehicle you own. Rarely do you see a vehicle older than 10 years old out there. It becomes cost prohibitive to keep them on the road when there is a checklist of things a page long that have to get fixed before it is roadworthy. Some of the crap you see on the roads out here makes you wonder.
    The junk we allow on the road here is beyond scary.
    On the other hand, I wouldn't want to see Alberta become one of those places you hear about where they refuse to register cars due to largely cosmetic issues. A rusted out body might suggest deeper problems, but it does not make a car unsafe by itself. Requiring an emissions test and bare minimum safety inspection would be good, but I wouldn't support anything beyond that.

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    Mandatory just means a licence for someone to rip you off, like the sky high prices of insurance and even light bulbs. Remember a couple of years ago when you could buy four light bulbs for $1.99? Change the law and winter tires will double or more in price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Mandatory just means a licence for someone to rip you off, like the sky high prices of insurance and even light bulbs. Remember a couple of years ago when you could buy four light bulbs for $1.99? Change the law and winter tires will double or more in price.
    Do winter tires in Québec cost double everywhere else?

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  94. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Order of magnitude difference would mean that they stop in 1/10th the distance. I agree with the sentiment, but let's not exaggerate too much! Although 1/2 the distance is pretty impressive. I'm a big believer in winters myself, and have had them since I was a teenager. They've certainly saved my bacon a few times.
    This is the internet, if it's not blatantly exaggerated, full of rhetoric, or done with extreme hubris, you're doing it wrong

    At least we agree on the usefulness of the tires. I can appreciate not being able to afford them, but there seems to be a lot of deniers out their that have never tried them and think it's a scam, when the difference is very, very real. I don't like wasting money, and I consider good winter tires a very good investment. Like you, they have saved my skin at least a few times.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  95. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Brand new crappy all season tires are no better than bald tires on snow and ice. This isn't all about traction while going, a huge part of winter compounds is the ability to stop. While not being able to get going might be an inconvenience at an intersection, not being able to stop is what can kill you or someone else, and all seasons don't work at all on ice in cold temps.
    By all accounts even good or great winter tires do not work on sheer ice, nothing seems to be able to grab onto ice. Even if you have 4 wheel drive and good winter tires sheer ice is going to take you anyway. Once you are in a skid on ice it's just about impossible to stop sliding, you have to hit the ditch or something else to stop. I realize that winter tires are made of different compounds but mother nature can and has over ridding a lot of that.
    None of that is true at all. Good winter tires make a night and day difference stopping on ice. Orders of magnitude better than crappy all seasons. At the 2:05 and 3:05 markers that is illustrated very clearly.

    One can see that winter tires work in a controlled testing facility. Unfortunately we don't drive in those controlled conditions. If the treads in your tires get packed with snow they loose a fair amount of their grip. The big test of these winter tires is do they cut down on accidents. Does anyone have the stats on provinces who make these tires mandatory in the winter.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  96. #96

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    The law saw success in Quebec.

    Important pieces of information:
    Before the law was enacted in 2008, 90 percent of motorists already used winter tires.
    all winter accidents fell by 17 percent compared with the five winters preceding the enactment of the law, while accidents causing deaths or serious injuries fell by 36 percent. In Montreal, which held the lowest rate of winter tire use before the law was enacted, serious accidents fell by 46 percent.
    authors noted that since the tire law came into being, road accidents in all four seasons had declined for a variety of reasons. But even after controlling for the factors that improved year-round road safety, the ministry attributed a net accident reduction of 5 percent to the winter-tire law.
    So, with only 10% of the total population being forced to finally make the plunge, it had a 5% decrease in overall winter accidents. That's a tremendous success. There's no way 90% of Albertan's have winter tires today, so if we passed a similar law it's very likely we'd see a significant reduction.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Germany had a reported 50 per cent drop in personal-injury collisions after making winter tires mandatory. Likely not the only factor but definitely a factor.

    http://www.wheels.ca/news/its-offici...ut-collisions/

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  98. #98

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    ^ ^^ Interesting stats.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  99. #99

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    More like completely expected results. Anyone who's used winter tires know they work. This isn't a conspiracy.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  100. #100

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    Mandatory "Winter" tires? I'm sure that the Tire Dealers would love to see that put in place. What about the thousands of drivers who have survived by not having an accident through years of driving in hazardous Alberta winter road conditions? They achieved this by driving carefully and with common sense and consideration to the existing conditions of the road surface. If drivers want to always be the fastest one away at the Lights, tailgate others, have no respect for speed limits , then sooner or later- - - - . It won't make any difference as to the type of tire they have mounted.

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