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Thread: Stoney Trail Calgary

  1. #1
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    Default Calgary ring road

    Private deal to fast-track ring road
    N.E. link to open in '09 for $930M paid over 30 years

    Jason Fekete, with a file from Emma Poole, Calgary Herald
    Calgary Herald

    Friday, February 23, 2007

    Premier Ed Stelmach announced Thursday the northeast leg of Calgary's ring road will be completed by fall of 2009 under a $930-million public-private partnership -- a funding model he said his government will analyze for myriad other capital projects.

    But the move immediately came under fire from opposition parties, which argue P3s amount to long-term debt and will handcuff governments for decades to come -- at a time when multibillion-dollar surpluses are stuffing provincial coffers.

    The Alberta government has signed a 30-year deal worth about $930 million with a consortium -- dubbed the Stoney Trail Group -- which will design, build, maintain, operate and partially finance Stoney Trail expansion from Deerfoot Trail N.E. to 17th Avenue S.E.

    The government will continue to own the road after the deal expires.

    Stelmach said a P3 for the ring road is the best option, as the price tag for the project under traditional government procurement methods is estimated at between $1 billion and $1.1 billion in 2007 dollars.

    "The government is entering this partnership because it makes sense," Stelmach told reporters at Calgary's McDougall Centre.

    "It makes sense from a business perspective for the taxpayers of Alberta and it is a great improvement on Calgary's transportation network."

    The provincial government will pay $300 million up front, and then make payments of $21 million per year over 30 years to the private group -- totalling about $930 million.

    The province insists the agreement amounts to $650 million in today's dollars.

    Asked if the funding deal with the private sector should be considered new government debt, Stelmach said: "It is a liability, obviously. We show that in our books."

    But Infrastructure Minister Luke Ouellette said the government is poised to save more than $300 million by signing at a fixed rate, rather than facing inflationary construction and maintenance cost pressures over the life of the project.

    Government officials, however, were unable to offer a detailed breakdown of exactly where and how much the savings will be.

    The announcement comes only days after government officials said the provincial surplus is pegged at $6.5 billion in the fiscal third-quarter update scheduled for the end of the month.

    Alberta Liberal infrastructure critic Harry Chase scoffed at the ring road P3 deal and the government's desire to pursue similar funding models for other capital projects, including schools.

    He said a responsible government should follow a pay-as-you-go approach financed with public dollars, rather than "a mortgage for 30 years into the future."

    "The idea of a politician making a promise now when they won't be around in 30 years -- it's politics of convenience," Chase said. "This simply hides the debt. It hides the debt into private borrowing."

    Yet, Stelmach said crippling inflationary pressures on labour and construction materials are forcing his government to eye alternative funding schemes for badly needed capital projects, including Calgary schools.

    He said he's open to employing more P3 deals to build the schools more quickly, as well as possibly allowing school boards to borrow money to help meet their infrastructure requirements.

    "They may research all options and bring them forward to government caucus for further review and support," Stelmach said.

    Calgary's Catholic School District believes P3s will lead to the "tail wagging the dog."

    Mike Barbero, superintendent of support services, said Thursday: "For us, the bottom line is that it's bad public policy. There's all kinds of things we're concerned about."

    Barbero said the province would be better off borrowing the money to build new schools instead of partnering with business.

    "The question we have at the end of 20 years is . . . who owns the school?" said Barbero.

    "It's a quick fix, but what we want to know is what are the long-term implications?"

    The Stoney Trail expansion will be the government's second venture into using a P3 for a highway.

    It followed such a model for the 11-kilometre southeast leg of Anthony Henday Drive in Edmonton, a project that was initially pegged at $300 million, but soared to around $500 million in 2005 dollars. Total project costs will amount to nearly $1 billion.

    Opposition parties charged that government documents proved public financing was the less expensive and more attractive option for the road in Edmonton.

    Construction on the Stoney Trail project is slated to begin in April and be open to motorists in October 2009. The project will see 21 kilometres of four- and six-lane free-flowing roadway.

    The government contends the P3 deal with one consortium will complete the project two years earlier than under traditional methods, which would see the province negotiate several, time-consuming tenders for various aspects of the project.

    Meanwhile, construction on the southwest leg of the ring road through the Tsuu T'ina reserve could be delayed for years, as an appraisal of the reserve land and negotiations with the federal and provincial governments still need to be completed.

    Regardless, Mayor Dave Bronconnier hailed Thursday's announcement as a significant step in improving Calgary's transportation network and reducing volume on Deerfoot Trail -- which sees more than 160,000 vehicle trips each day.

    "It means that commuters and truck traffic alike will have a viable alternative to Deerfoot Trail, at the same time easing congestion," Bronconnier said.

    The Stoney Trail Group, which will build the northeast section of the ring road, features a handful of major partners including Bilfinger Berger BOT Inc. -- an Ontario-based company.

    [email protected]

  2. #2

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    So, just like Edmonton is doing P3 for the SE portion of Anthony Henday which opens this fall?

    Woo hoo!

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    With this announcement for Calgary, does that mean that Edmonton might have to wait awhile before anything is announced for our northern leg of our ring road?
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Not really...
    Onward and upward

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    Default Re: Calgary ring road

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieH
    [The provincial government will pay $300 million up front, and then make payments of $21 million per year over 30 years to the private group -- totalling about $930 million.

    The Stoney Trail expansion will be the government's second venture into using a P3 for a highway.

    It followed such a model for the 11-kilometre southeast leg of Anthony Henday Drive in Edmonton, a project that was initially pegged at $300 million, but soared to around $500 million in 2005 dollars. Total project costs will amount to nearly $1 billion.
    Typical of this plureocracy that we live in here in Alberta. This represents nothing more than a massive transfer of weath from taxpayers/oil wealth to private hands with nothing to show for it at the end other than a run down highway. This reminds me of power deregulation where our assests were sold off to the private sector for an estimated loss of $6 billion! What will Albertains do about loosing this amount of money? Vote in another conservative majority of course! so long as they continue their steller record of fiscal responsibility.

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    What about finishing the NW leg of Calgary's ring road to deerfoot trail first? With Edmonton's ring road the provinces first priority was to connect highway 2 with highway 16 westbound, so how about a freeway connecting highway 2 to highway 1 westbound? The existing route from highway 2 to highway 1 eastbound is not a problem and is much faster than driving across 15km of Calgary's clogged arterial roadways to get to highway 1 westbound.

    I guess I'll be using the 567/22/1A/morley road route for some time to come.

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    P3's also commit our children and grandchildren to massive debt payments....30 years at 21 million for just this one road! The
    Alberta government has been transferring their public responsibilities to the private sector for years. It hides real costs, and shields them from being held accountable by taxpayers for their incompetence. Taxpayers have NO control over corporations.
    Remember how badly the deal on HWY 407 in Ontario has gone over the years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebar
    P3's also commit our children and grandchildren to massive debt payments....30 years at 21 million for just this one road! The
    Alberta government has been transferring their public responsibilities to the private sector for years. It hides real costs, and shields them from being held accountable by taxpayers for their incompetence. Taxpayers have NO control over corporations.
    Remember how badly the deal on HWY 407 in Ontario has gone over the years?
    Umm, can you tell me what political party in power hasn't done the same thing? They are all the same....

    Taxpayers have never and will never have control over corporations....not in a democracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD
    Quote Originally Posted by Rebar
    P3's also commit our children and grandchildren to massive debt payments....30 years at 21 million for just this one road! The
    Alberta government has been transferring their public responsibilities to the private sector for years. It hides real costs, and shields them from being held accountable by taxpayers for their incompetence. Taxpayers have NO control over corporations.
    Remember how badly the deal on HWY 407 in Ontario has gone over the years?
    Umm, can you tell me what political party in power hasn't done the same thing? They are all the same....

    Taxpayers have never and will never have control over corporations....not in a democracy.
    This is true if we keep voting for the same 2 parties. Time for a REAL change.

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    I think it is time to revisit the P3 program as well, but for slightly different reasons.
    With the government running a massive surplus, it really doesn't make sense to borrow money for capital projects.
    The benefit of a P3 project can be attained by contracting out the construction and long term maintenance of a project without the financing aspect.
    I would like to see things taken a step further. With the current cash surplus and massive infrastructure construction I think the government should set up an infrastructure trust fund. Everytime the province commits to a highway, rail or whatever capital project, they should also set aside enough money in a fund to maintain that project in perpetuity.
    This would accomplish at least two things. The first is it would remove the financial burden of maintenance from future generations.
    Secondly it would inflate the cost of projects thus self-limiting construction. This might cool down some of the demands for marginal proposals. (ie high speed rail)

  11. #11

    Default Stoney Trail Calgary

    I know were in edmonton.. but why is the nw section so far behind secdual..
    stated in 2005 completion date of 2008 or was it 2007
    why is it going to be fall of 2009 now???

    is anyone fallowing this?
    http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/stmbdgp.htm

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    I'm not sure why Stoney Trail NW has been delayed, but I know they were having trouble with negotiations for the SW leg (it runs right through Tsuu T'ina, not through Calgary).

  13. #13

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    i have a feeling it has something to do with the construction on the NE section of stony trail which is p3. since both construction zones connect at Deerfoot. thing is the NW is government contractors i do believe. why does it take them so long and its so fast with p3???

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    A P3 is one big contract, the Anthony Henday SE contract was hundreds (thousands?) of pages long. The contractor has some flexibility in the design and can use economies of scale by using the same forms, same concrete panels, over and over again. And as people are doing the same thing over and over they learn how to do it better and can do the same task from bridge to bridge.

    As well the P3 model is built on the contractor actually finances their own construction they start getting paid once it is complete and in installments until the term of the P3 expires, so it's in their best interest to complete on time (or perhaps even early).

  15. #15

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    so is that why the north west is 2 years or more behind scedual in calgary? thats alberta taxpayers money being spent on this road.. is it over budget too? possibly because its 2 years late?

  16. #16

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    calgary.ctv.ca
    Posted at Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:32 PM
    The media took a tour with the city of the proposed ring road on Tuesday.
    The province and developer of the northeast section say the project is on budget and will open on time in late 2009.
    The government says that the northwest section is still behind schedule because they've had to use more than 20 contractors to get the work done.
    http://www.stoneytrailgroup.ca/CTV/G...MLTemplate.htm

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzlerz View Post
    calgary.ctv.ca
    The media took a tour with the city of the proposed ring road on Tuesday.
    The province and developer of the northeast section say the project is on budget and will open on time in late 2009.
    Sometimes the media needs to proofread its articles. The northeast section of the ring road is not proposed. It's under construction! It'll be finished in about one year. The southern parts however are proposed.

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    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    I suppose Sarcee/Glenmore will do - for a while.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Actually Sarcee/Glenmore are too crowded now, tend to be jammed outside of rush hours. NW Stony is supposed to be open to Deerfoot by this fall not that this will help SW

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    at some point people will realize that when you funnel all cars down one road, the road will become crowded and the wider you make it, the more cars will attempt going on it making it crowded again and again... calgary's road network is great and far superior to edmonton's but only at 4am on a work day and 7am on a sunday when you can zip from one end of the city to another in under 40 minutes. At all other times it is a driving nightmare. At some point I hope the transportation planners will understand that several regular roads with well-timed lights will beat one free-flow road most of the time. Glenmore is great now that they expanded it and made a few overpasses at Chinook Center, but the congestion is still there and will not go away. Instead of making room for existing cars, they have invited more cars onto the same road.

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    I guess I haven't been to that part of Calgary recently. I talked to a couple of people from Calgary last month, and they said that that the South Calgary traffic is really bad.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    I used to live in South Calgary. It's a nightmare trying to get out of that corner of the city because you don't really have any options. It's either Crowchild/14 St., Macleod, or Deerfoot. 9 times out of 10 they are jammed anyway.

    I've always said that the problem with Calgary's network is that everyone is forced to take a single road to get somewhere. Edmonton's network at least gives me alternatives that I can take if the road is jammed (as long as you're not crossing the river :P)

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    I've been told that Edmonton's road network (once you get to know it) is easier to navigate than Calgary. One car breakdown or accident on the Deerfoot means traffic is backed up for miles.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Finally some other people are saying things I have said for years. Most naive Edmontonians rave about Calgary’s road system. That’s because they drive there mostly on weekends or non peak hours when the expressways don’t move that bad. Peak hour is a nightmare for exactly the reason you are all saying. There are a limited number of major roads to get around and once they are full, people have no options. A city built with a good grid network with many choices is much superior. HA – so sad you Calgarians.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I've been told that Edmonton's road network (once you get to know it) is easier to navigate than Calgary. One car breakdown or accident on the Deerfoot means traffic is backed up for miles.
    But this is a daily occurrence in Edmonton on Whitemud, Yellowhead, West Henday and without any accidents. Just due to road system being overwhelmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by knowitall View Post
    Finally some other people are saying things I have said for years. Most naive Edmontonians rave about Calgary’s road system. That’s because they drive there mostly on weekends or non peak hours when the expressways don’t move that bad. Peak hour is a nightmare for exactly the reason you are all saying. There are a limited number of major roads to get around and once they are full, people have no options. A city built with a good grid network with many choices is much superior. HA – so sad you Calgarians.
    Just last week I was approaching Calgary headed for my hotel downtown. Its 2:30 and I'm in Airdrie and expecting gridlock hell on a Friday afternoon with everybody off early.
    Instead I flow nonstop at 110K through deerfoot all the way to Memorial drive where I don't stop once and take 4th street bridge and the road takes me right to the hotel and its 2:45. Only 15 minutes later.

    Of course being from Edmonton I figure this must be divine intervention at work..or expressways that take you right downtown.

    Of course something like this is going to give a favorable impression as there are no such expressways into downtown Edmonton.

    We don't even have a proper bridge downtown at the terminus of Gateway.

    I can't imagination what travellers think of our inner road system.

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    try the same at 4:30. you'd think that calgary trail and 23rd ave construction is free-flow in comparison.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    try the same at 4:30. you'd think that calgary trail and 23rd ave construction is free-flow in comparison.
    Again to be clear this was approaching Calgary at 2:30pm from the outskirts on a Summer Friday afternoon when a city like Edmonton would already be locked in gridlock hell.

    Try driving to downtown Edmonton at that time from say Leduc or Fort Saskatchewan and see if you get there in 15 mins.

    It was amazing. Wife and I were literally high fiving and pumped. A great start to a weekend.

    ftr I've done the same later commute but taking a different route because Memorial does get badly plugged later. I've still arrived downtown Calgary in 35mins from Airdrie.

    I've had worse times too but nothing even approaching what it would take to drive to downtown Edmonton from anywhere in rush hour traffic.

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    ^ i am sorry but i am calling BS! driving to downtown Edmonton from Leduc on a friday afternoon is just as easy. Sure there are a couple lights on gateway but gateway is pretty smooth sailing for the most part. And if you were driving downtown then you would not be going with the rest of traffic, it would be a reverse commute.

    how about i pick and choose which experiences i write about, only remembering the bad of calgary roads and the good of edmontons? does one ore two isolated experiences( 2:30? wtf?) represent the entire of both road networks?

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    ^ i am sorry but i am calling BS! driving to downtown Edmonton from Leduc on a friday afternoon is just as easy. Sure there are a couple lights on gateway but gateway is pretty smooth sailing for the most part.
    What absolute nonsense. Try it sometime before shooting your mouth off. Traffic from Gateway would be backed up long before you ever reached Whyte Avenue. Not to mention being gridlocked from before 23ave to Whitemud.

    And if you were driving downtown then you would not be going with the rest of traffic, it would be a reverse commute.
    Except that you forget that many people actually live centrally in Calgary and many are going home.

    how about i pick and choose which experiences i write about, only remembering the bad of calgary roads and the good of edmontons? does one ore two isolated experiences( 2:30? wtf?) represent the entire of both road networks?
    Did I say it did? In fact I specifically pointed out that the one experience from Deerfoot to downtown via memorial drive would be an example of how an Edmontonian would get an impression on driving in Calgary. Specifically downtown. From Edmonton.

    I'm not trying to generalize other than that Calgary has freeways that go directly downtown and Edmonton does not.
    Last edited by Replacement; 05-07-2009 at 02:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

    What absolute nonsense. Try it sometime before shooting your mouth off. Traffic from Gateway would be backed up long before you ever reached Whyte Avenue. Not to mention being gridlocked from before 23ave to Whitemud.
    sorry but my work takes me all over the city and outlying areas and then i have to go to Nait in the evening for classes so trust me i drive into the downtown a lot and from every direction.
    Gateway is a thing of beauty. I actually thought it would be terrible since 111st is is fubared, whitemud is fubared, university/groat is fubared, henday is fubared. but no it doesnt seem to ever get busy. the lights cause a few delays but nothing major.
    also when the overpass is done at 23 that will solve some problems.

    I am not saying Calgary is good or bad for roads, but you cant take a 2:30 pm drive on a friday and just extrapolate that to all times and roads. Construction on condos and office buildings alone cause massive backups there(although thats a problem i wish we had )

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    I've worked in downtown Calgary. Believe me, at rush hour it now takes over 1/2 hr just to get onto Memorial Drive. And even there it gets backlogged because they had the insight to install traffic lights at the Deerfoot interchange.

    Back on topic:
    I can't wait until they finish the 201 between the QE2 and the Trans-Canada. I usually take one of the bypass roads via Cochrane on my way to Banff: either Hwy 567 through Airdrie (which has become impractical due to urban sprawl) or Hwy 27 via Olds (a speed trap).
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  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

    What absolute nonsense. Try it sometime before shooting your mouth off. Traffic from Gateway would be backed up long before you ever reached Whyte Avenue. Not to mention being gridlocked from before 23ave to Whitemud.
    sorry but my work takes me all over the city and outlying areas and then i have to go to Nait in the evening for classes so trust me i drive into the downtown a lot and from every direction.
    Gateway is a thing of beauty. I actually thought it would be terrible since 111st is is fubared, whitemud is fubared, university/groat is fubared, henday is fubared. but no it doesnt seem to ever get busy. the lights cause a few delays but nothing major.
    also when the overpass is done at 23 that will solve some problems.
    I have no idea when you are riding on Gateway. Frankly its so bad that I would never try to approach Whyte Avenue from Gateway any peak time, weekend, or evening.
    Everything comes to a halt well before you hit Whyte with traffic backed right up.
    My job has me driving a lot and at all times of day.

    Basically at rush hour you'd be looking at 15mins to go from Leduc to 23avenue(backed up) then another 20 mins to get as far as Whyte(optimistically as its ALWAYS backed up) and finally jamming onto a bridge and you're screwed with any bridge choice from there either sharing a bridge with 109th street traffic or 99th street traffic.
    Add easily another 10 mins just to cross the river and some more minutes inching back up on say 105th street or whichever poison you choose to get up to downtown.

    If you can do Leduc to Downtown in much under an hour at rush hour you either have a helicopter or live a charmed life.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Back on topic:
    I can't wait until they finish the 201 between the QE2 and the Trans-Canada. I usually take one of the bypass roads via Cochrane on my way to Banff: either Hwy 567 through Airdrie (which has become impractical due to urban sprawl) or Hwy 27 via Olds (a speed trap).
    Yep, moving along at a glacial pace and each time I go out there it seems like its no further to completion.

    Country Hills Blvd was for awhile being touted as a ring bypass, what a joke. I can't count the number of redlights and most of them on the very bottom of a steep hill. Pure hell pulling a trailer through there..

    The Cochrane run with all the hills strained my transmission too.

    Edmonton roads all being fairly level are definitely easier on vehicles. Calgary's topography requires highperformance vehicles just to get around.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    Gateway is a thing of beauty. I actually thought it would be terrible since 111st is is fubared, whitemud is fubared, university/groat is fubared, henday is fubared. but no it doesnt seem to ever get busy. the lights cause a few delays but nothing major.
    also when the overpass is done at 23 that will solve some problems.
    Agree 100% about Gateway/Calgary Trail. I've never had any problems on that road - traffic moves very well.

    Actually, the only places I've had issues with traffic in this city are West Henday (for reasons well documented and being fixed) and the Yellowhead (maybe someday there will be no traffic lights here..)

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by christopherj View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    Gateway is a thing of beauty. I actually thought it would be terrible since 111st is is fubared, whitemud is fubared, university/groat is fubared, henday is fubared. but no it doesnt seem to ever get busy. the lights cause a few delays but nothing major.
    also when the overpass is done at 23 that will solve some problems.
    Agree 100% about Gateway/Calgary Trail. I've never had any problems on that road - traffic moves very well.

    Actually, the only places I've had issues with traffic in this city are West Henday (for reasons well documented and being fixed) and the Yellowhead (maybe someday there will be no traffic lights here..)
    lol

    With all of these "traffic flows great on Gateway" comments I'd wonder why they ever needed the 23ave overpass.

    Does traffic also flow great merging into the Walterdale Bridge where all the traffic from 109thst has the primary right of way going down Walterdale hill? Not to mention the mess Queen Alex hill becomes on slippery winter days on a circuitous route that looks like it was drawn up with horse carriages in mind..one accident anywhere and everybody is late for work.

    Thats the single most inane thing I encounter driving in Edmonton. That arguably our main road leading into the core does not have a dedicated bridge. Instead we have 2 main arteries and 5 lanes of northbound traffic funnelling into an antiquated 2 lane one way bridge..a traffic engineering nightmare and a bandaid from the start thats never been addressed.

    Once you cross that bridge you still have to snake up either 105th street or Rossdale both of which are also overwhelmed routes.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-07-2009 at 08:36 AM.

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    Replacement: I tried Country Hills Blvd a few times too, but too many lights, on may as well drive down 16th Ave. Actually they are working on 16th Ave making it 3 lanes each direction with left turning bays, reducing intersections but not a freeway.
    http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server....or+Project.htm

    But weather and other factors permitting Stony Trail NW should be open to Deerfoot this fall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Country Hills Blvd was for awhile being touted as a ring bypass, what a joke. I can't count the number of redlights and most of them on the very bottom of a steep hill. Pure hell pulling a trailer through there.
    Just a spot of bad news though:
    If I understood the plans correctly, the NW Stony Trail will still have a couple of traffic lights with full intersections built later. The eastern sections are being built via P3 with no traffic lights.

    Sound familiar?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    ^Yes, there are lights on Stony NW....

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    Nice. Then the 567/22 route thru Airdrie and Drayton Valley is still the preferable way to get to Banff from here...

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    ^ Drayton Valley?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  42. #42

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    ^ maybe they meant cochrane?

  43. #43

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    Doh, brain fart.

    Hey, you could go to Drayton Valley and then take hiway 22 the WHOLE way...

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    Press release from AB Transportation
    ---
    Portion of Stoney Trail NW ring road opens in Calgary

    Calgary... Motorists are advised that Stoney Trail NW is open to traffic from Sarcee Trail NW to Harvest Hills Boulevard NW.

    Motorists may use the seven-kilometre stretch of new road, the interchange at Beddington Trail NW, and the signalized intersection at Harvest Hills Boulevard NW. This newly-opened section is part of a larger project to extend the Stoney Trail NW ring road from Country Hills Boulevard NW to Deerfoot Trail (Highway 2). Stoney Trail NW will fully open to Deerfoot Trail by the fall of 2009

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Thats the single most inane thing I encounter driving in Edmonton. That arguably our main road leading into the core does not have a dedicated bridge. Instead we have 2 main arteries and 5 lanes of northbound traffic funnelling into an antiquated 2 lane one way bridge..a traffic engineering nightmare and a bandaid from the start thats never been addressed.
    It is a total embarrassment. I had a colleague up from Calgary recently - he brought his car, and commented on the strange switchback on the road in. He asked me how to drive back from our downtown office, and I struggled, ending up with something like:

    - Take one of the many streets South (perhaps the one that goes by Hotel McDonald - i.e. 100).
    - Get low enough down in river valley then turn East on main road.
    - Make sure you are in right lane as you head South after crossing bridge - go toward 99 street.
    - Turn back West as you get up the hill, to link to Gateway.
    - Turn South, and straight from there.

    i.e. South, East, South, West, South.

    Simple! Well not really. Can you describe it easier? It's pathetic, no wonder so many residents who live and work and the deep South end, never come downtown. They are too afraid that they won't be able to find their way back home.
    Last edited by moahunter; 12-07-2009 at 03:37 PM.

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    or you could have said 109st to sask drive to calgary trail.

  47. #47

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    ^West, South, East, South. Slightly better, but I was afraid to recommend 109 street as it often turns into a traffic jam at rush hour.

    Wouldn't it be nice if we could say something like "head to XYZ street, and just follow it"? Is it really too hard for our traffic people to design? You can do that driving into downtown (Gateway, even with the hairpin), but our downtown is a trap to get out South for anyone not familiar with it.
    Last edited by moahunter; 12-07-2009 at 04:08 PM.

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    ^ so what your saying is we need a new bi directional 6 lane wide iconic bridge connecting gateway to 105 (?). A bridge with a bike lane, a pedestrian lane and with cool lighting effects. A bridge that would be connected to the new free flow cut and cover tunnel starting from approx whyte ave. I love it!

    your right it is kinda weird getting out of downtown though. I usually stick to 109-111-whitemud-terw drive to get home and as soon as that water main or whatever is fixed at 80ave it wont be so bad anymore.

    this reminds me of a thread a while back where i believe it was grish who was trying to say that 109st should be our new main road into the city. fun times in that thread

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    Got it! I could have said, go to say, 105st (or whatever), and head South all the way to Calgary. Imagine that

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    I agree Moahunter, explaining directions to the South Side from Downtown, or vice versa, is quite difficult. I think that the Walterdale Bridge will go a long way towards simplifying traffic towards downtown.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    It is a total embarrassment. I had a colleague up from Calgary recently - he brought his car, and commented on the strange switchback on the road in. He asked me how to drive back from our downtown office, and I struggled, ending up with something like:

    - Take one of the many streets South (perhaps the one that goes by Hotel McDonald - i.e. 100).
    - Get low enough down in river valley then turn East on main road.
    - Make sure you are in right lane as you head South after crossing bridge - go toward 99 street.
    - Turn back West as you get up the hill, to link to Gateway.
    - Turn South, and straight from there.

    i.e. South, East, South, West, South.

    Simple! Well not really. Can you describe it easier? It's pathetic, no wonder so many residents who live and work and the deep South end, never come downtown. They are too afraid that they won't be able to find their way back home.
    It's not like getting out of Calgary downtown to go North is a whole lot better. If I'm coming out of a parkade on a southbound one way, I have to go south, then east then north, then east again, make sure I'm in the right lane(s) as I go over the bridge because it's not easy to get into them if I am on the wrong side if it's backed up at all. Then you take a right to go North on Deerfoot.

    Not that simple either. Plus you have to tell them 5 ave SE, 9 AV SW (which becomes 9 AV SE) which can be confusing too.

  52. #52
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    Hey all. I've been following this site for awhile but figured it was time to register so I can throuw in my 2 cents, from a Calgarian's perspective.

    regarding Stoney Trail, if you are unaware, it it quite similar to AHD in structure and how it has been built. The NE portion (from Deerfoot, east around to the TCH) is a P3 project similar to SE AHD and will be open by November of this year. The NW portion is similar to SW AHD (complete with some traffic lights to screw things up) and is currently open from the TCH in teh west to harvest Hills Blvd in the north. The remaining few km will be opened at the same time NE Stoney does (ie by November).

    On the NW portion there will be 3 sets of traffic lights - Harvest Hills Blvd, Nose Hill Drive, and Crowchild. The lights at Crowchild should be gone by next year as the interchagne is completed (currently under construction). We're hoping, as you are with SW AHD, that funding will come through to build full interchanges at Harvest Hills and Nose Hill Drive.

    Regarding bypassing Calgary (and I know a lot of you think that is a good thing), some of you have already stated that using Hwy 567 at Airdrie and down #22 through Cochrane is your preferred route. As Airdrie and Cochrane continue to grow that route is becoming less and less desireable IMHO. Cochrane in particular has discovered the magic of traffic lights along 22 and it's getting to be a real pain.

    Once Stoney fully opens this fall, the Stoney option is pretty good and it's not bad right now. You can currently utilize it by taking the Balzac exit and heading west for a couple of miles to RR 13. Turn south on this road (which becomes Harvest Hills Blvd) and you are onto Stoney. From there it's a pretty smooth drive doen to the TCH. Currently only a few km of construction in the vicinity of Crowchild but a lot of that will be gone within a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lubicon View Post
    Regarding bypassing Calgary (and I know a lot of you think that is a good thing), some of you have already stated that using Hwy 567 at Airdrie and down #22 through Cochrane is your preferred route. As Airdrie and Cochrane continue to grow that route is becoming less and less desireable IMHO. Cochrane in particular has discovered the magic of traffic lights along 22 and it's getting to be a real pain.
    That's what I find now. Airdrie keeps growing westward so it takes longer to use 567. Cochrane needs to have gas stations along Hwy 22 - last time I had to traverse up and down 1A to find either an Esso or a Petro-Can.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  54. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    That's what I find now. Airdrie keeps growing westward so it takes longer to use 567. Cochrane needs to have gas stations along Hwy 22 - last time I had to traverse up and down 1A to find either an Esso or a Petro-Can.
    I travelled this route last weekend.

    They are doing some construction on 567 west of the recently widened section. Perhaps they are widening this section?

    They should do something with that traffic light where 22 meets 1A.

    If I need gas I'll stop at the Husky. But I usually turn west at the gong show traffic light, take 1A to Morley, and fill up in Canmore.

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    ^ I usually end up at the gas station just off the Hwy 1/Hwy 22 interchange.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Here's a video link to some newly-opened Stoney Trail NW in Calgary. I believe it opened last Friday or Saturday:

    http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...postcount=1346

    The remaining section east to Deerfoot Trail is expected to open around November, along with the Northeast Section of Calgary's Ring Road past the TCH to 17th Ave SE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    try the same at 4:30. you'd think that calgary trail and 23rd ave construction is free-flow in comparison.
    Again to be clear this was approaching Calgary at 2:30pm from the outskirts on a Summer Friday afternoon when a city like Edmonton would already be locked in gridlock hell.

    Try driving to downtown Edmonton at that time from say Leduc or Fort Saskatchewan and see if you get there in 15 mins.

    It was amazing. Wife and I were literally high fiving and pumped. A great start to a weekend.

    ftr I've done the same later commute but taking a different route because Memorial does get badly plugged later. I've still arrived downtown Calgary in 35mins from Airdrie.

    I've had worse times too but nothing even approaching what it would take to drive to downtown Edmonton from anywhere in rush hour traffic.
    I have lived in Calgary for 10 years and am often in Edmonton for business as our head office is in DT |Edm. Please never say Calgary has a good road system. I work 6 Km from YYC and often it takes 30- 40 minutes to drive there in grid lock. Deerfoot is a road that I avoid at all costs. Every morning and PM rush there are many spots where traffic stops....no accidnets, stalls or lane closures just volume. Please do not be naive and think because you have had one or two good trips thru CGY that our road system works. it doesn't and is no better that Edm. At least on many trips in Edm you can relatively easily chose an alternate route. Both cities have traffic jams. As with every city in depends on where and when your destination is.

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    Oh I agree Calgary has worse traffic jams but why? They have Crowfoot, Glenmore, Memorial, Deerfoot as freeways, they have a LRT system that reaches NW, NE and S, seems to me they should have less traffic problems then Edmonton

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Oh I agree Calgary has worse traffic jams but why? They have Crowfoot, Glenmore, Memorial, Deerfoot as freeways, they have a LRT system that reaches NW, NE and S, seems to me they should have less traffic problems then Edmonton
    Yes thta would be the theory but when you design a city that to get from A to B there is only one way you can do it, then you have problems. If you have alternate routes, even without freeways, you can get there quicker. High speed limits on roads do not get you there quicker.

    "The quickest way to get somewhere is to slow down"

  60. #60

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    Oh I agree Calgary has worse traffic jams but why? They have Crowfoot, Glenmore, Memorial, Deerfoot as freeways, they have a LRT system that reaches NW, NE and S, seems to me they should have less traffic problems then Edmonton

    MUCH larger working population that moves in/out of the downtown core every day.

    Edmonton's working poulation moves AROUND the city more than calgary, rather than in/out of the center.

  61. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by exiledincgy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    try the same at 4:30. you'd think that calgary trail and 23rd ave construction is free-flow in comparison.
    Again to be clear this was approaching Calgary at 2:30pm from the outskirts on a Summer Friday afternoon when a city like Edmonton would already be locked in gridlock hell.

    Try driving to downtown Edmonton at that time from say Leduc or Fort Saskatchewan and see if you get there in 15 mins.

    It was amazing. Wife and I were literally high fiving and pumped. A great start to a weekend.

    ftr I've done the same later commute but taking a different route because Memorial does get badly plugged later. I've still arrived downtown Calgary in 35mins from Airdrie.

    I've had worse times too but nothing even approaching what it would take to drive to downtown Edmonton from anywhere in rush hour traffic.
    I have lived in Calgary for 10 years and am often in Edmonton for business as our head office is in DT |Edm. Please never say Calgary has a good road system. I work 6 Km from YYC and often it takes 30- 40 minutes to drive there in grid lock. Deerfoot is a road that I avoid at all costs. Every morning and PM rush there are many spots where traffic stops....no accidnets, stalls or lane closures just volume. Please do not be naive and think because you have had one or two good trips thru CGY that our road system works. it doesn't and is no better that Edm. At least on many trips in Edm you can relatively easily chose an alternate route. Both cities have traffic jams. As with every city in depends on where and when your destination is.
    My employment/life involves flexible hours and I look at arterial infrastructure as a potential.
    i.e. the potential for any particular road system to deliver me to a destination rapidly.
    Being a city resident all my life I structure my trips/work as much as possible to avoid traffic congestion wherever I live.

    Just like I don't try to go shopping, tim hortons drive through, or to the doctor at 5pm I don't tend to evaluate infrastructure solely on the basis of how it performs when overwhelmed.

    I don't force my activity to co align with the worst possible times to be driving. Its nonsense to do that and in every city theres ample residents that are sitting behind the wheel teeth clenched when they could easily make small timing adjustments in their life.

    Small example. If I'm working in Castledowns why attempt to drive home to the southside at 5:00pm when I hear and know that the yellowhead is screwed? Why spend an hour making that gas guzzling idling commute.
    Why not drive a few blocks, hit clubfit, a restaurant, a movie, whatever, kill some time and then comute at 6:00 or 6:30 when the drive home will take half the time?

    In the am why not head downtown early at 7am, have a workout, then go to work downtown close by?

    Sometimes peoples seeming obstinance to use routes at the worst possible times is a large part of the problem.

    We live in a society and economy where infrastructure uses, employment, school, activity, could easily be spread out instead of all occurring at the same time.
    It is nothing but gross waste and societal and civic management to have infrastructure systems that perform well on full load conditions.
    The answer should rarely be to do that. The answer should instead be in getting people to make small adjustments in the timing of their lives..To spread that timing.

    I posted what I did about my drive downtown Calgary experience because the splendid infrastructure actually exists to make the trip I described.. That it is possible to make such a trip with any proper use of timing and foresight.

    No such trip to downtown Edmonton is possible at any time of day due to lack of freeways/bridges that lead downtown.
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-07-2009 at 12:31 PM.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by exiledincgy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    try the same at 4:30. you'd think that calgary trail and 23rd ave construction is free-flow in comparison.
    Again to be clear this was approaching Calgary at 2:30pm from the outskirts on a Summer Friday afternoon when a city like Edmonton would already be locked in gridlock hell.

    Try driving to downtown Edmonton at that time from say Leduc or Fort Saskatchewan and see if you get there in 15 mins.

    It was amazing. Wife and I were literally high fiving and pumped. A great start to a weekend.

    ftr I've done the same later commute but taking a different route because Memorial does get badly plugged later. I've still arrived downtown Calgary in 35mins from Airdrie.

    I've had worse times too but nothing even approaching what it would take to drive to downtown Edmonton from anywhere in rush hour traffic.
    I have lived in Calgary for 10 years and am often in Edmonton for business as our head office is in DT |Edm. Please never say Calgary has a good road system. I work 6 Km from YYC and often it takes 30- 40 minutes to drive there in grid lock. Deerfoot is a road that I avoid at all costs. Every morning and PM rush there are many spots where traffic stops....no accidnets, stalls or lane closures just volume. Please do not be naive and think because you have had one or two good trips thru CGY that our road system works. it doesn't and is no better that Edm. At least on many trips in Edm you can relatively easily chose an alternate route. Both cities have traffic jams. As with every city in depends on where and when your destination is.
    I complete agree with this as when I lived there for 5 years (99-04), I found that there are too few routes to get anywhere in Calgary. The problem is everyone has to use the same handful of roads and they are not designed to handle that amount of traffic (especially rush hour). Edmonton may have less "freeways" but there are multiple ways of getting anywhere in the city and the traffic is more dispersed rather than using a handful of roadways for an entire city. No one should ever say that their road system is well planned or moves traffic efficiently.

    P.S. Deerfoot is a parking lot more often than people in Edmonton think, numerous times a week it would be bumper to bumper going 5 km/hr making a 15 minute drive into a 45-60 min drive.

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    Agreed - Calgary has (had?) much better major thoroughfares, just that to get any distance you had no choice but to use one of them. Evetually thoroughly sick of Crowchild Trail, I moved ... till I got sick of Bow Trail.

    Also, to be fair, Calgary has great north-south road and transit infrastructure; east-west sorta sucks. Edmonton? Pretty good east-west; north-south sorta sucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deedub35 View Post
    They should do something with that traffic light where 22 meets 1A.

    If I need gas I'll stop at the Husky. But I usually turn west at the gong show traffic light, take 1A to Morley, and fill up in Canmore.
    That's my favorite route to Banff and southeastern BC as well. A free-flow right turn lane would be easy to add and would at least help with the outbound trip. The delays trying to turn left on the way home would be harder to fix though. As for 567 through Airdrie, I'd love to see the next township road north upgraded to a highway with a new interchange at highway 2, but I don't imagine that is very likely.

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    The newest portions of Stoney Trail opened today. The road now runs from the Trans Canada on the west side of Calgary all the way around the north and back down to 17 Ave SE on the east side of town (ie it circle roughly half the city - similar to the current state of AHD in Edmonton). From Deerfoot/QE2 to the east it is completely free flow and was built as a P3 project. From Deerfoot/QE2 and west it was built via 'traditional' methods and still has 3 sets of traffic lights. They are located at Harvest Hills Blvd, Crowchild Trail, and Nose Hill Drive. The interchange at Crowchild is currently under construction and will be open to traffic in 2011 so that will eliminate one set of lights. Hopefully funding will be announced for the other 2 interchanges soon as is now being done on SW AHD.

    Stoney should now be a decent alternative for getting to Banff etc if you are coming from Edmonton, although there is still a lot of construction in the area of Crowchild Trail.

  66. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by lubicon View Post
    Stoney should now be a decent alternative for getting to Banff etc if you are coming from Edmonton, although there is still a lot of construction in the area of Crowchild Trail.
    I would still recommend the bypass at Airdrie and come out at either the Petro Canada on highway 1 or my preference at Morley. There is so much traffic from Airdrie into Calgary, construction still and two traffic lights on the NW leg, and the slow drivers from Calgary to the Petro Canada. Would make a wicked experiment the next convoy to Canmore/Banff though.
    Last edited by deedub35; 02-11-2009 at 10:12 PM.

  67. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by deedub35 View Post
    I would still recommend the bypass at Airdrie and come out at either the Petro Canada on highway 1 or my preference at Morley. There is so much traffic from Airdrie into Calgary, construction still and two traffic lights on the NW leg, and the slow drivers from Calgary to the Petro Canada. Would make a wicked experiment the next convoy to Canmore/Banff though.
    I'm not sure if the Airdrie/Cochrane bypass has any time savings over Stoney Trail. There are 3 sets of lights through Airdire, 1 set of lights through Cochrane (4 if you take Hwy 22 to Hwy 1 instead of going through Morley), two stop signs (Symons Valley Rd & Hwy 22), a level railway crossing, plus the majority of the route is single laned. While traffic can be heavy on Hwy 2 south of Airdrie and Hwy 1 east of Hwy 22, normally traffic volumes still allow you go the posted speed limit even during peak periods. Stoney Trail does have 3 sets of signals, but one is in the process of being replaced at Crowchild Trail.

    If you like the route because of personal preference, great! However I think if the routes were timed Stoney Trail would likely be the faster route.

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    ^ I would agree with this. I find that the same applies with AHD, which (barring heavy traffic and construction) is quicker than the Hwy 60/Hwy 19 bypass.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    stony trail has a strange disproportionate look to it because of calgary's shape. AHD looks like a nice circle around edmonton... just a random observation

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    The longer term plans are for an interchange at the NE corner and have a freeway run north, will look a tad less weird then. There are some very interesting roads here
    http://www.yeeta.com/_Weird_Roads_from_around_the_World

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perspective View Post
    stony trail has a strange disproportionate look to it because of calgary's shape. AHD looks like a nice circle around edmonton... just a random observation
    Yup. Calgary's growth is very much limited to a north/south direction. Can't go west much due to the Tsu Tiina Reserve bordering the city to the SW and acreage developements on the west & NW side. Can't go east due to sour gas wells in the area (this will go away over time). That leaves north and south which is where the bulk of growth has occured since I moved here in 1997.

    Geography also plays a role in the aerial shape of Stoney. Hill on the west side of town mean the road curves a little more to get up and down the hills with an acceptable grade. On the east side of the city is is flat and the road runs in a straight line. The next leg (SE corner of Calgary) will run straight south from where Stoney ends now and link up with Hwy #22/Marquis of Lorne Trail. The future SW leg will be a real cluster as the alignment is not at all clear due to the Tsu Tiina rejecting the proposed alignment through their land a few months ago.

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    Took this roadway a couple of days ago into the NW instead of Country Hills....and all I can say is wow. What used to be a 30 min drive, became a 5 min drive.

  73. #73

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    Took this road instead of the Cochrine bypass this last weekend to get to Canmore, and wow, shaved at least 20 minutes off the trip. Can't wait till the 3 lights are gone. Best way to get to banff now!

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    April 9, 2010
    Stoney Trail in Calgary drives forward
    Government saves $1 billion through P3 contract
    Calgary... Motorists will have 25 more kilometres of ring road to drive on by the fall of 2013.

    The Alberta government signed a 33-year contract with Chinook Roads Partnership to design, build, operate and partially finance Stoney Trail from 17th Avenue SE to east of Macleod Trail. The contract also includes maintenance of Deerfoot Trail from its junction with Stoney Trail SE (currently Highway 22X) to its junction with Highway 2A. “The contract for Stoney Trail SE will save taxpayers $1 billion,” said Premier Ed Stelmach. “This project demonstrates that now is definitely the right time to keep investing in our public infrastructure. We’re taking advantage of lower construction prices while providing jobs for hundreds of people. The excellent industry response to this project shows confidence in Alberta’s future and that the province is a great place to invest. Projects like these ensure Alberta has the infrastructure it needs for a strong economic recovery.”
    The public-private partnership (P3) contract is worth $769 million in 2010 dollars. This compares to the estimated cost of $1.8 billion using traditional delivery. The Alberta government will advance $232 million during the construction phase while the federal government is providing $100 million through the Major Infrastructure Component of the Building Canada Plan. Once the road opens to traffic, the Alberta government will make monthly payments over the remaining 30 years of the contract.
    “The Government of Canada is committed to investing in highway infrastructure and creating jobs in Alberta,” said Jim Prentice, Minister of the Environment and Member of Parliament (Calgary Centre-North). “This project is providing job opportunities for Albertans and building strategic infrastructure that will promote long-term economic growth.”
    Chinook Roads Partnership will start construction in May 2010 and the road will open to traffic by the fall of 2013. Chinook’s partners include affiliates of SNC-Lavalin Inc., who have been present in Alberta since the 1950s and now employ more than 1,600 people in the province, and Acciona S.A., who have been active in the P3 market in Canada since 2001 and in Alberta since 2003.
    “Chinook Roads Partnership is both delighted and honoured to have earned the privilege to work together with Alberta Transportation to deliver the next important leg of Calgary’s ring road,” said Chinook Roads Partnership representatives Roger Howarth and Jim Burke. “We look forward to a long and successful relationship with the province and the City of Calgary and we will work hard to ensure our stewardship delivers a first class road by the fall of 2013 that will benefit the people of Calgary and all its visitors for 30 years and beyond.”
    The project includes 25 kilometres of six-lane roadway, nine interchanges, one road flyover, two rail flyovers and 27 total bridge structures. In terms of scope, it’s the largest single highway project in Alberta’s history. The roadway’s main line will be completely free-flow and have no traffic lights. Approximately 70 per cent of the Calgary ring road will be open to traffic once Stoney Trail SE is completed.
    “Building Calgary’s ring-road is a key component of our provincial and city economic development strategy,” said David Bronconnier, Calgary mayor. “Enhancing the movement of people and goods around our city means improving our competitiveness, and the timing of this project couldn’t be better. We’re taking advantage of excellent prices and capacity in the construction industry, creating jobs and creating a ring-road network that will serve us well into the future.”
    Using Alberta’s P3 model for highways allows Stoney Trail SE to be built two years sooner than through conventional delivery. Stoney Trail SE is the fourth project to use Alberta’s P3 model for highways.
    The Government of Canada is taking important steps to support economic growth in Alberta and across Canada. Canada’s Economic Action Plan provides for almost $12 billion in new infrastructure stimulus funding over two years and the acceleration of the $33-billion Building Canada Plan, which will help address needs in communities across Canada and contribute to long-term economic growth through investments in public infrastructure, such as roads, water treatment, green energy and transit.
    The Government of Alberta has a clear plan for a strong economic recovery. The Way Forward will bring Alberta back into a surplus position in three years by trimming government spending; using cash reserves to protect key programs; continuing to invest in public infrastructure; and ensuring that our province's industries are competitive and continue to attract investment to provide jobs and prosperity.
    -30-
    Backgrounders: Stoney Trail SE project description, Alberta’s Public-Private Partnership for Highways
    Media inquiries may be directed to:
    Trent Bancarz
    Communications
    Alberta Transportation
    780-427-0623
    Cell: 780-446-3514
    To call toll free within Alberta dial 310-0000.
    Alyson Robb
    Special Assistant, Communications
    Minister’s Regional Office, Calgary
    The Hon. Jim Prentice, Minister of the Environment
    403-292-5444
    Cell: 403-808-7550

    Media Relations
    Transport Canada
    613-993-0055



    April 9, 2010 Stoney Trail SE Project Description

    Roadway
    25 kilometres of six-lane divided highway
    Bridges
    27 total bridge structures
    Interchanges
    17th Avenue SE
    Peigan Trail SE
    Glenmore Trail SE
    114th Avenue SE
    Highway 22X
    52nd Street SE
    Deerfoot Trail SE
    McKenzie Lake Boulevard/Cranston Boulevard SE
    Sun Valley Boulevard/Chaparral Boulevard SE
    Flyovers
    61st Avenue SE
    Canadian Pacific Rail line
    Canadian National rail line
    Maintenance
    Contract includes maintenance of Stoney Trail SE and 12 kilometres of Deerfoot Trail between Stoney Trail SE (currently Highway 22X) and Highway 2A junction.
    -30-
    Media inquiries may be directed to:
    Trent Bancarz
    Communications
    Alberta Transportation
    780-427-0623 or Cell: 780-446-3514
    To call toll free within Alberta dial 310-0000.
    Media Relations
    Transport Canada
    613-993-0055





    April 9, 2010 Alberta’s Public-Private Partnership for Highways
    Design, Build, Finance, Operate (P3) Process

    • Under this process, a private-sector partner is responsible for the design, construction, financing (whole or partial), rehabilitation, and maintenance of a roadway for 30-35 years. Once the road opens to traffic, government makes monthly payments to the partner over the remaining 30 years of the contract. Government may advance funds during construction to lower the monthly payments and make the project more attractive for bidders.
    • Government is guaranteed a fixed price and delivery date for the road. The private contractor assumes risks such as inflation and weather-related delays and can be penalized for late delivery.
    • Government also receives a 30-year warranty on the work, which means the road must be in the condition specified by the contract at the contract’s conclusion. Under traditional delivery, warranties are usually one to two years.
    • Part of the process includes a comprehensive evaluation of a project’s suitability for a P3. P3s are used only when there are clear benefits to taxpayers.

    Request for Qualifications (RFQ)

    • The RFQ determines potential bidders’ qualifications and short-lists potential bidders to three proponents. For Stoney Trail SE, five potential bidders responded to the RFQ.
    • Potential bidders are usually partnerships or consortia of engineering, construction, financing, and road maintenance companies.

    Request for Proposals (RFP)

    • The three bidders identified by the RFQ are invited to submit bids for the project. Three bidders are optimal because the competitors have a reasonable chance of success and the process remains competitive should one of the bidders withdraw.
    • A bid’s net present value, or its value in today’s dollars, is used to compare the bids with each other and with the traditional delivery estimate. If all bids exceed the upper limit of the traditional delivery estimate, the project does not proceed as a P3.
    • The interest rate used for the net present value calculations of the traditional delivery estimate and submitted bids is the estimated rate at which government could have borrowed money at the closing date for the P3 project.
    • For Stoney Trail SE, the traditional delivery estimate is $1.8 billion. The three bids were $769 million, $1.13 billion, and $1.16 billion.

    Final Contract Award
    Government awards the contract to the compliant bid with the lowest net present value. The successful bidder enters into an agreement with government.
    -30-
    Media inquiries may be directed to:
    Trent Bancarz
    Communications
    Alberta Transportation
    780-427-0623 or Cell: 780-446-3514

    http://www.gov.ab.ca/acn/201004/2811...6BB157036.html

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    ^ i am sorry but i am calling BS! driving to downtown Edmonton from Leduc on a friday afternoon is just as easy. Sure there are a couple lights on gateway but gateway is pretty smooth sailing for the most part.
    What absolute nonsense. Try it sometime before shooting your mouth off. Traffic from Gateway would be backed up long before you ever reached Whyte Avenue. Not to mention being gridlocked from before 23ave to Whitemud.

    And if you were driving downtown then you would not be going with the rest of traffic, it would be a reverse commute.
    Except that you forget that many people actually live centrally in Calgary and many are going home.

    how about i pick and choose which experiences i write about, only remembering the bad of calgary roads and the good of edmontons? does one ore two isolated experiences( 2:30? wtf?) represent the entire of both road networks?
    Did I say it did? In fact I specifically pointed out that the one experience from Deerfoot to downtown via memorial drive would be an example of how an Edmontonian would get an impression on driving in Calgary. Specifically downtown. From Edmonton.

    I'm not trying to generalize other than that Calgary has freeways that go directly downtown and Edmonton does not.


    not really, it was a bit out of downtown core in calgary
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

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    Well I'll be darn... we have gridlock traffic in Edmonton?

    (I'm going to guess that the word gridlock was used in the most loose of terms... cause we ain't got no gridlock here... See NYC if you want to get a handle on the word gridlocked.)

    Traffic flows pretty nicely on Gateway/Calgary Trail. Sure, there's lots of traffic, but theres lots of lanes, and I've never had to wait more than one sequence of lights to get through...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Well I'll be darn... we have gridlock traffic in Edmonton?.
    Back when downtown was the place to go, before 1980, we occasionally had true gridlock 100-104 ave, 97-105 streets or so.

    But it's been years since.

    Edmonton has slow-moving bubbles. That's all.

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    Just got back from a brief trip to Kananaskis. As others have stated, the Stony Trail ring road is much quicker than the Hwy 22/Hwy 567 bypass via Cochrane and Airdrie, even with traffic lights, interchange construction, and volume.

    That said...I can't imagine what it's like on a Friday afternoon when 1/2 of the Calgary area heads to the Rockies. Also keep in mind that just north of the 201 they're building a new interchange at QE2/Balzac for the CrossIron Mills development.
    Last edited by Sonic Death Monkey; 27-07-2010 at 08:31 PM.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    ^ You are quite right. Currently the only real bottleneck on Stoney is at Crowchild in the NorthWest. Even on an average weekday afternoon it can take up to 15 minutes to get through this traffic light. The good news is this interchange should be open within the year. The traffic lights at Harvest Hills Blvd/Centre Street are a non issue and will be eliminated this winter. the last set of lights on Stoney are at Nose Hill Drive and that intersection still moves fairly well. Construction for an interchange begins next year and should be completed in 2013. I use the almost the entire length of Stoney (Hwy 1 in the west to Hwy 1 in the East) regularly and it takes about twenty five minutes if you are not held up at Crowchild. BTW I belive the CrossIron Mills interchange construction should wrap up this winter. Now if only the province can decide where to run Stoney in the SW to bypass the T'su T'Ina reserve. Can't wait for AHD to be completed as well.
    Last edited by exiledincgy; 28-07-2010 at 09:14 AM. Reason: typos

  80. #80
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    Yup. The Crowchild/Stoney intersection is a real gong show during rush hour. The interchange won't be fully functional for another year (2011) but it should be partially open by this fall which should help (I hope). It's only been 5 years of construction at this particular site so it can't happen soon enough. But in true Alberta Transporation style it will open jsut in time for the Nose Hill Drive interchange construction to start so we will have another 3 years (from now) of construction zones to deal with. God, this project has gone on forever.

    And not that it will affect most Edmontonians but construction has started on the SE leg of Stoney which will take it around the SE portion of the City and link up to Hwy 22 and the #2 south of Calgary.

    I echo Exiled's comments on the SW portion - that will be teh last piece of the puzzle.

    The interchange at Crossiron Mills should be done this year but there are plans to twin the bridge and build a better interchange a few km further north, right at Balzac, due to traffic volumes at the new mall.

    And lastly, the QE2 / Yankee Valley interchange rebuild at the south end of Airdrie is also finished so that construction zone should be gone. Next up is adding a 3rd lane to the QE2 from Airdrie to Carstairs so construction will still be a factor for a few more years.

  81. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Just got back from a brief trip to Kananaskis. As others have stated, the Stony Trail ring road is much quicker than the Hwy 22/Hwy 567 bypass via Cochrane and Airdrie, even with traffic lights, interchange construction, and volume.

    That said...I can't imagine what it's like on a Friday afternoon when 1/2 of the Calgary area heads to the Rockies. Also keep in mind that just north of the 201 they're building a new interchange at QE2/Balzac for the CrossIron Mills development.
    Pretty amazed in May when I drove from home straight to Canmore in 3.5hrs. Less time than it takes me to drive Edmonton to Jasper now due to the Edson and Hinton speed bumps.
    From Southside Edmonton now Edmonton to Banff or Edmonton to Jasper are pretty much identical time trips.

  82. #82

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    ^I've noticed this as well, Banff/Kananaskis/Canmore is I think closer now in travel time (offers more hotel options, and better prices than Jasper, as well).

  83. #83
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    I've only drive NW Stoney on off hours so haven't noticed the Crowchild problem, but it will go away soon once they are done. The major problem is that it reduces one of the main reasons I go to Calgary ... Peter's Drive Inn, not much else there to see

  84. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Just got back from a brief trip to Kananaskis. As others have stated, the Stony Trail ring road is much quicker than the Hwy 22/Hwy 567 bypass via Cochrane and Airdrie, even with traffic lights, interchange construction, and volume.

    That said...I can't imagine what it's like on a Friday afternoon when 1/2 of the Calgary area heads to the Rockies. Also keep in mind that just north of the 201 they're building a new interchange at QE2/Balzac for the CrossIron Mills development.
    I've made this trip on a few Fridays now and have not found it to be a problem. Certainly nothing near the problem driving through west Henday in Edmonton at any time of the day. I've never had significant delays or felt the traffic going to Banff was particularly heavy.

    On the other hand try leaving for Jasper from the southside these days. Especially with a trailer. Theres virtually no route you can take that igets you out of town in half an hour.

    Edmonton road construction on Henday and Whitemud simultaneously(which is plain nuts from a traffic engineering standpoint) basically precludes me going on a trip to Jasper these days. Why fight the traffic and aggravation?
    Its a joke that I can drive faster to Banff then Jasper. Our corridor continues to get less efficient while Calgarys is jumping leaps and bounds.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by exiledincgy View Post
    Now if only the province can decide where to run Stoney in the SW to bypass the T'su T'Ina reserve.
    That whole SW stretch south of Hwy 1 is a concern, is it not? The Olympic park is almost in the path of that stretch.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  86. #86
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    Olympic Park is bit to the east side, but it would come close to the bobsled runs

    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=5...05785&t=h&z=14

    As for Tsuu T'ina it might be possible to still make an acceptable arrangement but they would want concessions, they might accept a freeway lid similar to what are on Mercer Island on Interstate 90
    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=k&...,0.014462&z=16

  87. #87
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    The plan for Stoney from Hwy #1 to Hwy #8 is pretty much decided. It won't be that big an issue. It will come up the hill to the west of COP, there are no concerns there. The big and only hang up is how to get through the Tsu Tiina reserve. They rejected the last deal and the province has said the issue is dead and they will find another option. There really is no reason (other than funding) for the province not to build the portion down to Hwy #8 except they really can't tie it in to #8/Glenmore Trail until they know how the road can proceed through the Reserve.

  88. #88
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    One of the routes I had seen was skirting just north and east of the Tsuu T'ina (there are two u's) reserve, not the best path but as they have final say over building a freeway on their lands their permission is necessary.
    http://www.tsuutina.ca/upload/images...gary_Large.jpg

  89. #89
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    Tsuu T'ina band supports renewed ring road talks
    Clara Ho - Calgary Herald
    Tsuu T'ina Chief Sandford Big Plume indicated he and council members have received support from residents to reopen talks with the province in hopes of negotiating a better deal for the southwest ring road. ...
    http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...171/story.html


  90. #90
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    SE leg to 22X is opening today
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  91. #91

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    ^ I may never have to use the deerfoot again!

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    Personally if I was the Tsuu T'ina band I would agree to a landswap subject to Alberta Transportation putting some lids over the freeway like they have in Seattle.

    But I could have used the SE Stoney Trail when I was down in Calgary last, we went to the Calgary Corn Maze and pumpkin patch and getting to there was next to impossible with all the construction and road closures.
    http://www.calgarycornmaze.com/pumpkin-patch
    Last edited by sundance; 22-11-2013 at 01:10 PM.

  93. #93

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    any updates on those talks since 2011 post? I dont follow that situation, or haven't in a long time at least.

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    Yup they have made an agreement with the band regarding a land swap, details are here;
    http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/2480.htm

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    ^ The Tsuu Tina made out like bandits on that one. Unfortunately all Albertans are paying for the city of Calgary's bad planning.

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    Looking at their plans, it almost looks like an extension of Sarcee Trail to Hwy 22X. Not sure if it's meant to be called Stony Trail all the way around.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  97. #97

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    IIRC, Sarcee trail was where the original ring road would've went. Those plans got cancelled as they were building phase I, and thats why you have two different unconnected sections of this road.... The river crossing never got built.

  98. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Yup they have made an agreement with the band regarding a land swap, details are here;
    http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/2480.htm
    I can't stand land claims and intransigence, but at the same time I can't say the band is screwing the province any worse than they themselves got screwed when our ancestors bought the land from them.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Take a look at the final leg of the Calgary Ring Road
    http://alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=36...FA0F4F7BFBC384

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    Southwest ring road construction to start next year
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...year-1.3142275
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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